The relic weapon quest is OBSCENELY boring...

Oh look, yet another thread of people whining about not enjoying an OPTIONAL quest.

Don't enjoy the relic grind? Don't do it. Think it's too much effort for too little reward? Don't do it. Go and grab one of the many alternative weapons you keep going on about.

I can only assume all the people complaining about the quest do, in fact, want their relic weapon. Why? What sets it apart from any of the other end game weapons EXCEPT for the grind?

"But it's too grindy!", "The grind has not been reduced to some arbitrary level that I personally feel is acceptable!".

Some people enjoy the relic quest line. Not everything has to be liked by everybody.

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Originally Posted by desufin

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A time sink can only mean so much when it's old content. Like I mentioned before, no one really minded that nexus took a whooping 2k light when it was the final step (and happened to be BiS in some circumstance) Atma sucks for the sole fact that its ultimately a pointless step that's there for the sake of filler. Honestly, the nerf was way overdue all things considered by the time nexus came out.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

But that's the issue isn't it? Because even if the final relic stage puts it at the level of Dreadwyrm weapons, it probably still wouldn't be worth all the work involved to get them. And if they make them better than Dreadwyrm all hell will break lose since they'll become "mandatory" for progression.



That wouldn't solve anything, it would just turn relics into Ironworks/Dreadwyrm weapons.

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Most people would agree that something like this would be indefinitely better than farming lvl 12 fates for a 1-10% drop. Heck, even giving an actual story to this quest instead of making it an overglorified fetching quest (or at least give some realistic lore behind the zodiac weapons...)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

A time sink can only mean so much when it's old content. Like I mentioned before, no one really minded that nexus took a whooping 2k light when it was the final step (and happened to be BiS in some circumstance) Atma sucks for the sole fact that its ultimately a pointless step that's there for the sake of filler. Honestly, the nerf was way overdue all things considered by the time nexus came out.

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So your excuse for wanting relic to be easier to catch up on is "it's old content". That's just silly. The nerfs the relic grind has already gotten have been drastically more severe than adding echo to ex primals and coil. And short of removing all the 1-shot mechanics of T6 and T7, they haven't drastically nerfed coil despite being "old content". And neither should they. People are literally acting entitled for not wanting to catch up for being late to the game "because it's old content". Not to mention an OPTIONAL part of the game. (Reminder that you don't need to clear all coils to unlock the next tier of the coil, just T5 for second coil and T9 for final.)

I get why people want the relic, but if you want the relic, you have to accept it's a long grind. No ifs, and or buts about it, you do it just like everyone else (with quite some lenient nerfs anyway) had to. "Old content" is just a lame excuse for "I want to have my relevant relic NOW". And again, I've done two relics now, one before any nerf and one after and I find it to be perfectly fine with exception of the animus books, but if books are nerfed, cost needs to go up again.

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Originally Posted by desufin

And again, I've done two relics now, one before any nerf and one after and I find it to be perfectly fine with exception of the animus books, but if books are nerfed, cost needs to go up again.

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You uh, you realize that Animus books got more expensive in 2.4, and actually only reached equality with 2.3 Animus books when 2.5 inflated Sol again right? 1 myth = 0.33 of 1 sol according to the game's conversion rate, but books were only cut to 50% of original price. In fact, Animus books are pretty much the least-nerfed step in the Relic quest (and it kind of shows with how many players I've met that do Atma in a couple days fine fine, do a budget Novus in a week or two fine after, but deadwall on Animus for months, hah...)

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Originally Posted by Krr

You uh, you realize that Animus books got more expensive in 2.4, and actually only reached equality with 2.3 Animus books when 2.5 inflated Sol again right? 1 myth = 0.33 of 1 sol according to the game's conversion rate, but books were only cut to 50% of original price. In fact, Animus books are pretty much the least-nerfed step in the Relic quest (and it kind of shows with how many players I've met that do Atma in a couple days fine fine, do a budget Novus in a week or two fine after, but deadwall on Animus for months, hah...)

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Wrong. Books used to cost 1500 mythology. When mythology was removed they were changed to 500 soldiery. At the time of the change the books were slightly harder to get currency for with soldiery than they were with mythology in the patch before it (but not by a lot, especially not if you still had people to get 100 soldiery bonus from in which case it was MUCH easier already). With the last patch everything gives soldiery like candy, CT, ST and WoD give 100 for each full clear, either of the expert dungeons give 100 and then you have the roulette bonuses. And price is still at 500. Soldiery is -really- easy to get right now and 500 is a drop in the ocean of what you can get in a single day with just a tiny bit of effort.

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Originally Posted by desufin

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If you see that as an excuse then I won't argue about it. I personally don't believe old content should be kept to the absolute devotees just for the sake of getting more people through it. Hell, from my viewpoint changing old content/relic doesn't affect me otherwise because i've already done it.

Animus books in 2.4 were more or less the same with the conversion rates, excluding first time bonuses (which were faster), and hunts (which were made slower).

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Originally Posted by desufin

Wrong. Books used to cost 1500 mythology. When mythology was removed they were changed to 500 soldiery.

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Right, let me correct that. Books were reduced by 1/3 and Myth converted to sol at a rate of 1/4. Soldiery was still incredibly scarce that patch and you had to go out of your way to get more of it instead of stacking it with other activities. A completely random and unreliable 'newbie bonus' did not compensate unless you were very lucky. You had to do five roulettes a day instead of one and some light hunting to keep up. The numbers speak for themselves; books got harder to buy in 2.4 because no matter which way you cut it, sol/hour did not come anywhere close to 1/3 the myth/hour you could get in 2.3. Hunts are mostly responsible for this, though.

2.5 saw the only 'real' nerf to the cost of an Animus book. But, they still take a minimum of 5-8 hours to complete each (not accounting for DPS queues in low level dungeons,) so honestly, a nerf to cost was a token gesture to begin with...though honestly, I'd rather farm 3x as much Sol then spend 8 hours doing old level synced shit I don't care about and sitting AFK outside of rare fates so I can get to the actually interesting part of the Relic quest.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

That wouldn't solve anything, it would just turn relics into Ironworks/Dreadwyrm weapons.

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It would do absolutely nothing of the sort, provided you only have to run 24 man raids.

MoP's legendary questline wound throughout the entire expansion, having a progressing storyline that was interesting, time-consuming and CHALLENGING, without resorting to making us go hang around level 20 areas for days at a time or run old, poorly-designed dungeons.

If Blizzard can make this work and not be utter shit, SE can do the same, right?

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Originally Posted by seida

Some people enjoy the relic quest line. Not everything has to be liked by everybody.

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I don't, and I'm making it known, and if you don't like threads like this, why do you keep bumping them?

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Originally Posted by desufin

So your excuse for wanting relic to be easier to catch up on is "it's old content". That's just silly. The nerfs the relic grind has already gotten have been drastically more severe than adding echo to ex primals and coil. And short of removing all the 1-shot mechanics of T6 and T7, they haven't drastically nerfed coil despite being "old content". And neither should they. People are literally acting entitled for not wanting to catch up for being late to the game "because it's old content". Not to mention an OPTIONAL part of the game. (Reminder that you don't need to clear all coils to unlock the next tier of the coil, just T5 for second coil and T9 for final.)

I get why people want the relic, but if you want the relic, you have to accept it's a long grind. No ifs, and or buts about it, you do it just like everyone else (with quite some lenient nerfs anyway) had to. "Old content" is just a lame excuse for "I want to have my relevant relic NOW". And again, I've done two relics now, one before any nerf and one after and I find it to be perfectly fine with exception of the animus books, but if books are nerfed, cost needs to go up again.

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Even if everyone accepted this, it still would not explain why the reward does not equal the time investment.

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Originally Posted by Deathscythe343

Even if everyone accepted this, it still would not explain why the reward does not equal the time investment.

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Clearly the reward is the knowledge that you obtained something using obscene amounts of your time and successfully passed the patience checks SE put in place. Have pride in your accomplishment! Yay!

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Originally Posted by Deathscythe343

Even if everyone accepted this, it still would not explain why the reward does not equal the time investment.

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First of all time investment versus reward differs between players and what SE has in mind. Secondly, the stats on the relic isn't the single reward the weapon provides which many seem to overlook (yet the fact that it is unique and different is why so many want it and complain about it being hard to get because of its heavy time investment requirement). If we really want to talk about time investment equaling reward, then I must say relic by far beats out all the beast tribes except ixal in terms of time required and the rewards you get for it. Does that mean beast tribes are in a serious need of buffs or nerfs? Not at all. Because the rewards are what SE deemed the time investment to be equal to. That exact same logic applies to the relic. And for reference, if you are decently invested into it, it takes less than 30 days to get a relic to i125 from scratch.
The same can't be said for beast tribes.

Edit: And yes I know the ACTUAL time investment between the two are grossly different but you still can't max out a beast tribe faster than 28.5 days where as how fast you do relic is completely up to yourself.

i stoped after doing the books was waiting for the next step , but got hit with the grind of alexandrites and materias......NO WAY im going to grind days for materias or worse buy it off the MB, most overpriced thing ever, at least pets are cool and u justs need 1 and u keep it forever.

so bought the soldiery weapon and upgraded it , and after a while i got my high allagan :) , now im using the augmented ironwork weapon until i get the Fcob weapon (if it drops ) else i could careless , the expansion will bring new weapons :P

Good thing i keep my sanity this way :D , and my gil , was able to buy some pets , dye my nin af gear :3 and lots of things with the gil i saved instead of wasting it on relic ^_^

so u tell me after farming atmas ugh , u farm books that suuuucks (1$!$! FATES that take days to spawn!! , and low lvl dungeons that no1 cares about anymore) , ok u make it , now what? oh materias and alexandrites ? !$!$!$ IT , /ragequit .....ok u have 0 gil and are going crazy but finally made it..............now farm lights! , SE mastertroll

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

Stop being an elitist.

The point is. Is not fun to farm 9 books doing old content. You want a weapon only good players can have it? Fine but put challange stuff instead of boring stuff. How About to clear some coil raid 3 times instead doing old dungeons with 20+ minutes queue?

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Saying that if you don't enjoy something, it may not be for you isn't elitest. Some people DO like it. Not everyone likes the same stuff so instead of demanding everything cater to your specific likes, leave it be for those that do like it. Everything isn't fir everyone. There's nothing wrong with that.

One day people might accept that everything in a game isn't designed for them. Maybe. Possibly?

Nah who am I kidding.

Again, folks, this isn't about "If you don't enjoy it, don't do it!"

It's about the fact that other MMOs have had nearly identical questlines/objectives that have been fun and challenging instead of bland and tedious.

I refuse to believe that Yoshi-P can do such a magnificent job with so much of the game and then be completely unable to cook up a decent relic weapon questline/progression system...

I will say this: the materia step should honestly be the least stressful step.

Spiritbonding is incredibly easy and you could very quickly get all the tier 1, 2, and 3 materia you need in a day. The tier 4's can always be added in later if you find you have more money and want to. But it won't make or a break a weapon.

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Originally Posted by Krr

You uh, you realize that Animus books got more expensive in 2.4, and actually only reached equality with 2.3 Animus books when 2.5 inflated Sol again right? 1 myth = 0.33 of 1 sol according to the game's conversion rate, but books were only cut to 50% of original price.

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Ignore the convention rate, forget the convention rate.
All what is important was how fast someone can earn 500 soldiery during 2.4 versus 1500 myths during 2.3

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Originally Posted by Izsha

One day people might accept that everything in a game isn't designed for them

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Millions of people accepted that WoW's heroics aren't for them, as less than 5% of WoW players will ever clear that content at level/tier.

But that's because those are extremely difficult and don't hide that fact.

The relic weapon quest starts out somewhat challenging and interesting: you have to clear hard bosses and there's a storyline that goes along with it. But then, all of that suddenly falls away and it becomes a checklist of rehashing old content.

The issue I have with this is that, above all, it's unnecessary. There could've been a long running storyline that lasted until 3.0, and yes, it could've involved doing challenging things which were initially hard but gradually made easier over time.

The most accessible content in the game shouldn't be obscenely boring. WoW has plenty of horribly boring grinds, too, but those don't even reward gear...

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

It would do absolutely nothing of the sort, provided you only have to run 24 man raids.

MoP's legendary questline wound throughout the entire expansion, having a progressing storyline that was interesting, time-consuming and CHALLENGING, without resorting to making us go hang around level 20 areas for days at a time or run old, poorly-designed dungeons.

If Blizzard can make this work and not be utter shit, SE can do the same, right?

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No, it would do exactly just that.

There are already two weapons that are obtained through the highest level raid (Ironworks and Dreadwyrm) and you want to put a third weapon there? There's a reason that relic weapons don't require Final Coil.

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Originally Posted by Parodine

I will say this: the materia step should honestly be the least stressful step.

Spiritbonding is incredibly easy and you could very quickly get all the tier 1, 2, and 3 materia you need in a day. The tier 4's can always be added in later if you find you have more money and want to. But it won't make or a break a weapon.

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That's the thing though. Farming Tier IV materias are a real pain, so I ended up caving in and buying most of them. Novus (the materia part, not farming the alexandrite) is by the far part I hated the most of the relic quest.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

No, it would do exactly just that.

There are already two weapons that are obtained through the highest level raid (Ironworks and Dreadwyrm) and you want to put a third weapon there? There's a reason that relic weapons don't require Final Coil.

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Did you even READ my post?

If the relic weapon required you to run 24 mans, there wouldn't be an issue. The three 24s are to XIV what LFR is to WoW: easily puggable, and no where near "the highest level raids" (referring to CHALLENGE, not ilevel, of course).

It would still be perfectly accessible content for casuals, but it would at least be things we were going to do ANYWAY instead of sending us to relive the boredom of being a goddamn level 20 with less than half of your relevant skills all over again...

Sorry I misread it.

But that's the point, SE wants players to do other stuff, not stuff that they would do anyway.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

That's the thing though. Farming Tier IV materias are a real pain, so I ended up caving in and buying most of them. Novus (the materia part, not farming the alexandrite) is by the far part I hated the most of the relic quest.

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Why did you feel like you needed tier IV's at all, though? Because you don't unless you're a true min-maxer. And even if just filling it up without tier IVs, if you happen a long tier ivs more casually, you can always change the stats later on. That step is extremely flexible.

Making money isn't terribly hard for me, but even so, on my WHM one I had the ability to go for full Piety which thankfully was cheaper than anything else. But the Det IV's I bought and any that didn't make the fusion and broke I just put into crit. But even not buying any iv's at all, I don't think 7 determination would make a noticable cure difference practically.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Sorry I misread it.

But that's the point, SE wants players to do other stuff, not stuff that they would do anyway.

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I get that, but that's the thing: it's like if you were working to get your PHD in mathematics and your professor says one day, "Tonight, I'm going to assign you math homework fit for a 3rd grader!"

Forcing older players to reinforce the content for newer players (or players leveling new classes) is a good way to make older players hate you.

History has also shown it's not necessary: there's enough incentive for players to level new classes that you shouldn't need to send older players back into that content anyway.

I hear ya OP. I have 3 dungeon atma left for my Zodiac and none of them have been dropping for days. I mean like... 15 a day and nothing.

It's more about not making players spam the endgame content even more.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

It's more about not making players spam the endgame content even more.

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But endgame content is giving us exactly what we need anyway, which is why it makes it feel a lot less grindy if we have to run endgame content for the relic questline.

It worked that way in WoW and it was fine: you ran LFRs and, in most cases, each boss had a chance to drop an item you needed for your legendary in addition to dropping a piece of gear for you.

And you know how they could make the current situation better? Let us grind for our books...on ANY class instead of having to have the weapon equipped. Let us get credit for whatever book we have without needing to be that class.

That way, we could at LEAST be leveling another class and making progress on SOMETHING instead of literally getting nothing out of the experience except some measly gil and credit for the book...

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

But endgame content is giving us exactly what we need anyway,

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More reason to not have relic weapons revolve around endgame content.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

Did you even READ my post?

If the relic weapon required you to run 24 mans, there wouldn't be an issue. The three 24s are to XIV what LFR is to WoW: easily puggable, and no where near "the highest level raids" (referring to CHALLENGE, not ilevel, of course).

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You have the option to farm the 2000 light points for Nexus with only doing CT, if you like it.

Back in the day when we had max i90 gear and the relic step was only to do the primals, it was fun. Then everything else happened.

Actually, let me clarify; it was fun AFTER they upgraded the servers. Grinding i90 gear wasn't fun though. Lol. To this day, I have yet to see the healer gloves drop from t1 LMAO.

It's right up there with the time wasting abysmal joke that is progression in fishing. At least with the relic progression you are PLAYING the game. With fishing its weeks of hitting the same two buttons over and over again. The dev's need to go back to design school and learn the difference between a waste of time and a game.

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Originally Posted by Bluejay

It's right up there with the time wasting abysmal joke that is progression in fishing. At least with the relic progression you are PLAYING the game. With fishing its weeks of hitting the same two buttons over and over again. The dev's need to go back to design school and learn the difference between a waste of time and a game.

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this

fun come first they said...if isnt fun your are doing it wrong ..... :rolleyes:

They need to remove the RNG bit from the dungeons. No reason to have it.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

More reason to not have relic weapons revolve around endgame content.

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Oh, it COULD be a reason, sure...if the existing relic weapon progression involved challenging solo encounters, an interesting storyline and a proportionate reward for the time invested.

But it doesn't have ANY of those things, and if it's not going to have those things, it's far better to let players progress through things they were going to do anyway instead of forcing them to rehash old content with half of their skills missing and absolutely zero benefit outside of the relic progression.

It's like asking Michael Jordan to practice against 10 year olds between NBA games...

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Originally Posted by Lilyarel

They need to remove the RNG bit from the dungeons. No reason to have it.

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Wha~?! You actually have a problem with 30-50 minute dungeon runs for a chance to get a drop... 20+ runs later with an average time wasted of 13 hours and still what? 15? more dungeons to go with the same RNG formula?!

My god... relics are supposed to be for grinding j-j-just deal with it or don't do it it's OPTIONAL!!!1111

/sarcasm

I wouldn't say boring.. It does give me something to do. However after reading how lights work. It just dawned to me that its a lot like the first stage for Mythic in FFXI. Where you need to build points based on weapon skills and skill chains. Except its more or less being done without ever climbing 100 floors in Nyzule or having someone to chain off of. Boring no, excessively repetitive maybe, but its not as bad as it could have been. The RNG on Atma (better), fate Alex (meh..??), Dungeon drops (not even close yet), and materia farming/melding, for each relic is nothing like what folks had to do in XI. Especially before the nerfs to make it almost more accessible. To give a hint; try farming 10,000 Alexandrite 5 years ago for that one mythic stage. Or currency farming 8 years ago. Maybe that's why I'm not completely out of my mind on these Relic quests.

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Originally Posted by Kotemon

I wouldn't say boring..

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I dunno. To me, if I can do something 90% asleep and/or drunk while also watching netflix, it's not engaging me and is therefore boring.

Not that YOU said this, but a lot of people don't seem to understand the difference between "challenging" and "tedious". If it has a skill check, meaning that you need a reasonable amount of competency as a player to accomplish it, it's challenging. If the ONLY thing separating you from achieving whatever it is is TIME, it's tedious.

There were some things that were probably even more grindy than this questline in Aion, like grinding up piles of Balur parts, but you did it in the abyss where an enemy player could jump you at any moment so it DEFINITELY wasn't boring.

You know whatever it is is boring when getting ganked while doing it might actually IMPROVE the experience... :rolleyes:

At least add some damn story/lore to these relic quests to keep it somewhat engaging.

As it is now there's nothing relic/ancient/legendary about it. Oops I lied, it's actually a legendary waste of time and an ancient bore.

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Originally Posted by IfritReborn

At least add some damn story/lore to these relic quests to keep it somewhat engaging

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I think this might actually get me the most: if the legendary weapon chain was even half as interesting as the Hildebrand questline, it might actually be tolerable.

As it stands, it has an uncharacteristic lack of storyline, actually...

Being working towards my first Animus the past few days and its...boring. Plus the story is just lacking. There's a minimal superficial story, but it has no depth. We can only stop at the surface and there's no way to dig deeper into it.

Yes the whole idea of books is acceptable, 3 dungeons per book is acceptable, doing FATEs and Leves are acceptable. What I find boring is repeating all these 9 times and the pattern starts to show itself in a very bad way.

Every book sends me to the same places, just slightly different mobs. That's seriously boring. It's become just a laundry list. I want some variation. For example the Fire books could focus on more mob grinding, the Water books could be dungeon grinding, the Wind books could put up Leve quest goals, and the Earth book could be FATEs. It will feel much less monotonous this way because there isn't an obvious pattern of 1 low level, 1 high level, and 1 end-game dungeon for every book.

Imagine the original relic organized so that we kill 8 mobs in South Thanalan, then do Ifrit HM, then meld 1 materia and hand that in. Then we kill 8 mobs in South Thanalan again, do Garuda HM, and meld 1 materia and hand that in. Then we kill 8 mobs in...you get the idea. It becomes like a daily (or weekly, if you want).

Small scale repetition like "kill X of this mob" is just repetition. But repeating the same "workflow" is monotony. In putting the "same variety" in each book, you kill off the variety.

And RNG...it's perhaps about time we put a cap on the RNG. The drop possibility increases slightly each time we do something, giving us a reasonable expected number of times would be great. After all, it is a game, and getting bad streaks is life, not game.

Relics were nice in 1.0 and when the game first came out. Then...they became something to keep old content relevant.

Thankfully SE said that they know we want boss fights and Yoshida was all for putting back in boss fights instead of this reused old content junk we have now.

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Originally Posted by RichardButte

I dunno. To me, if I can do something 90% asleep and/or drunk while also watching netflix, it's not engaging me and is therefore boring.

Not that YOU said this, but a lot of people don't seem to understand the difference between "challenging" and "tedious". If it has a skill check, meaning that you need a reasonable amount of competency as a player to accomplish it, it's challenging. If the ONLY thing separating you from achieving whatever it is is TIME, it's tedious.

There were some things that were probably even more grindy than this questline in Aion, like grinding up piles of Balur parts, but you did it in the abyss where an enemy player could jump you at any moment so it DEFINITELY wasn't boring.

You know whatever it is is boring when getting ganked while doing it might actually IMPROVE the experience... :rolleyes:

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To be fair, I've done a number of hard mode and ex dungeons drunk / asleep and still made it through healing them.....Take that as you will. Bad quest is bad though.