the majority of healers do not want to play an offensive role. we just wanted a viable option of a dps role to be there in case we needed to defend ourselves or if we weren't being pressured we could assist with damage. i only know of two SCHs who actually went Cleric as a main role which was a shame because they insisted on doing that rather than healing their group so their alliances often failed at bases if there weren't at least 2 other healers to support their bad a$$e$.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
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09-20-2014, 11:44 PMGor
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09-20-2014, 11:55 PMAwdogsgo2heaven
I may not come back after this... They ruined what was the most interesting class for me. They keep everything so dumbed down and simplified it's boring. I can only hope Ninja will bring me renewed interest but I doubt it at this point.
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09-21-2014, 08:39 AMFyceYou are not supposed to be able to have an answer to every situation just by yourself, especially if it requires you the press of a single button.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gor
As I said, if you want to have an hybrid role, equip yourself accordingly, and yes, there will be trade-offs. You can't have everything for free. -
09-21-2014, 09:09 AMDivinemightLet you swap between dps and healer with one bottom without any form of trade off or penalty is actually a dumb down mechanic that they took away. You still can play Scholar as dps with correct attribute and gear setup, but since you made yourself sound like an opportunist, don't really matter you are coming back or not. WoW is probably better for you, no offence, they usually got one imbalance spec per patch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awdogsgo2heaven
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09-21-2014, 09:47 AMGoruntrue and you're over-exaggerating just because you are so hard-boiled on hating on healers. there are penalties and trade offs for swapping to dps from heals. just because they are trade-offs or penalties you may not like, doesn't mean they don't exist. the trade offs/penalties for swapping to dps from heals are as we have repeated to you and everyone time and time again are:Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
1. when swapping to dps, the healer cannot swap back to heals for 5 seconds which leaves you time to get smashed because you won't be able to heal for crap
2. when healing in Cleric, there is a 20% healing reduction, so instead of healing for 500-800, you are now healing for only 200-300 which isn't enough to sustain you or anyone else
there is a price to pay to dps and every healer has had a time they paid that price to dps over healing, with their death -
09-21-2014, 10:52 AMDivinemightGet it over with Gor, you need to stop those pointless accuse when you don't even have evidence to back yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gor
1 Started as WHM in FF11, check
2. Have RDM in FF11, check
3. Played Holy Paladin in WoW TBC, check
Don't throw those none sense at me. I am pretty much sitting on Warrior while gearing BLM for the Frontline, but I am keep saying Warrior need a self healing to be tune down . Does that makes me a Warrior hater now?
Don't through me with that can't kill healer crap. You are not the only one know how to PvP here. I know how to setup fatal blow on any job I have played. Not to mention, Wrrior is closed to be best all around job in which I find it is unreasonable.
Your doomsday theory about no one will play healer is proven wrong, only the number of players who played as dps went down. This is not first time I am hearing nerf made a class/ job unplayable and it is never a truth.
Did I ever said anything about total removals of this action? I didn't . Evidences of what I have said are in two threads that everyone are free to look it up. I only said Clearic Stance need to be adjust with a penalty such as 80% healing reduction for the game balance purpose.
Cleric stance It is a dumb down mechanic for PvE purpose because a lot of quests in this game are designed for soloing. If you want to drag Paladin into the mud, sword oath is for that purpose too.
Perfectly aware of, I am leveling a white Mage too. The fact is White Mage has fluid aura, duration is long enough to cover that period of time on top of WHM always keep regen.Quote:
1. when swapping to dps, the healer cannot swap back to heals for 5 seconds which leaves you time to get smashed because you won't be able to heal for crap
Scholar has eos at 500 per 3s with sprint running around eos. Unless you have issue with pet control.
First of all, I want penalty goes to 80%, it is SE decided to remove it. Secondly, the people that turned on Cleric Stance has no intend to be healer. They are doing dps. They want to keep this stance that can dps and heal at same time ?Quote:
2. when healing in Cleric, there is a 20% healing reduction, so instead of healing for 500-800, you are now healing for only 200-300 which isn't enough to sustain you or anyone else
Ask you one last time, why do you need Cleric Stance to play as healer? I don't take to protect yourself in 1 v 1, no job should be All around. -
09-21-2014, 11:22 AMGorwhat a said was not a opinion, its a fact that those are the 2 penalties for healers who switch to clericQuote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
the healer who do this are the extreme minority. on our data center i have only seen a few healers who did this on a regular basis out of the dozens of healers we have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
because it gives a small alternative to healing and it makes the class more fun so healers don't have to just stand around and just heal. to have a defense because SCHs don't have any other than bubbles and eos heals provided she doesn't get cc'd or killed. being able to 1v1 does not make a class all-round. the damage output is not as high as a dps and really once SCHS have no Aetherflow stacks ofr Energy Drain left, the damage is very low and weak. and in a group setting, healer dps is irrelevant other than being able to miasma-up everything. just as you said, i would agree to cleric being toned down as well, but i don't agree with it being 100% being taken out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
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09-21-2014, 11:26 PMDivinemightI heard you, but 20% is enough for PvE, but it is not enough for PvP when a job originally designed for 8 men party scale of the damage. This is main reason why I suggest this healing reduction need to be raise to 80%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gor
When a job actions are originally designed for PvE 8 men scale, they need different set of value to be used in PvP. After all, SE didn't have PvP in their mind during the initial planning for each job.
Takes Defiance for example, I barely feel 20% damage penalty is there because Wraith mechanic do provide bail out cards.
This is not about who is right or who is wrong. Every one has different online gaming experience. Their number has caused issue on JP servers. While the situation is not as overwhelming on NA servers, but they do have a good percentage.Quote:
the healer who do this are the extreme minority. on our data center i have only seen a few healers who did this on a regular basis out of the dozens of healers we have.
The game does not balance around few extraordinary players. Extraordinary players are minority. The game always balanced at broad, this is the common practice for all mmorpg games. There is no need to crucify SE for using the same practice.
Also, gaming company is paying attention to job distribution. When a certain job is over populated and a certain job is disappearing on the PvP. This is a signal to the development, something is wrong, and they need to take action to fix it. Like it or not, JP PvP community is bigger, and issue of healers infesting the Frontline emerged. Other job are disappearing, if my source is accurate, JP Paladins has been wiped out because they can only function as mediocre dps.
Like I have said many times, it is fine for players to play WHM and SCH. I am planning to play WHM as a dps myself. This is why I want to go through BLM first in order to get used to the pressure.Quote:
because it gives a small alternative to healing and it makes the class more fun so healers don't have to just stand around and just heal. to have a defense because SCHs don't have any other than bubbles and eos heals provided she doesn't get cc'd or killed. being able to 1v1 does not make a class all-round. the damage output is not as high as a dps and really once SCHS have no Aetherflow stacks ofr Energy Drain left, the damage is very low and weak. and in a group setting, healer dps is irrelevant other than being able to miasma-up everything. just as you said, i would agree to cleric being toned down as well, but i don't agree with it being 100% being taken out.
Cleric stance on other hand is too good to be true as a PvE based action. It need to be tune down to be fit into PvP environment. Me too, was shocked by SE of remove it. Yet, even when it is disabled, you still can do the same with correct attribute and accessories. You only lost the advantage to be sitting on vit accessories that is all. -
09-21-2014, 11:39 PMDomira
If you aren't having fun with healer because of healing then you maybe playing the wrong class. Something I've seen mentioned from time to time in this thread and the other cleric stance thread is that this isn't a 1v1 game. That you need team work to kill the healer etc. But the main reason why players are complaining about the removal of cleric stance is for the reason that they can't 1v1 effectively anymore. Double standards? Certainly. Why not apply the same logic that is being used against non healers to the healing class? Aka work as a team.
I also want to bring up the comparison of sword oath to cleric stance, to do so is just grasping for straws in a attempt to justify the existence of cleric stance in pvp. The two skills are totally different. One increases your AUTO ATTACK (notice the caps) damage by 50% every 2.5 secs. And the other increases your overall damage by 10% in addition to swapping the mind stat with intelligence. Which in sum increases your overall damage by way more than 10%. The reason why sword oath is even used is because out of the two oaths, its the only one mildly effective in pvp. Shield oath is useless unless you are trying to escape from a zerg of people. So it comes down to sword oath, you either:
1.Do not use any oaths
2. Use Shield Oath and take a 20% damage reduction for a 20% damage mitigation. But who would do this? PLD is targeted last
3.Or you can use Sword Oath which doesn't have a damage penalty.
Its not being used for a damage increase but simply because PLD does not have any other option. In regards to Cleric Stances healing penalty, the penalty isn't as potent as it is in pve. No player hits as hard as dungeon or raid mobs to make the penalty a real issue. What they should do for cleric stance in pvp is change that healing reduction penalty to a damage reduction penalty. Aka you take 20% more damage with it enabled. -
09-22-2014, 01:10 AMHailieWe know its not a 1v1 game, It's that sometimes we don't have a CHOICE but to try to help ourselves... if a healer is being attacked while they are alone they should be able to defend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Domira
Like I said before... if a healer is lagging behind their group and some DPS gets all excited wanting an easy kill, Healers should be able to do something.. not depend on others to help, it is not likely
others will help because they are greedy.
In FL Random groups with random ppl its all about who gets the most kills, most heals or most dmg. Every time I have done FL with random ppl it was every man for himself, ppl running off in their own directions.
This can go for dps as well... But the main reason why players are complaining about cleric stance is for the reason that they want to be able to kill healers easily without them putting up a fight. Double standards? Certainly.
Just my 2cents and opinion. -
09-22-2014, 02:02 AMZyphione
I am surprise that this topic still being discussed.
It has more than been settled already in many threads? What is current point of view that it should not have been remove? This last page posts very confusing. -
09-22-2014, 02:14 AMDomiraBut this happens to all classes! Anyone can get caught 1v1 and get picked off. To me it boils down to dps healers having a mindset adverse to the archetype. As a supportive archetype it shouldn't even be in ones mind to sit there and try to win a 1v1, but rather use your ability to sustain and remove debuffs to make your way to allies who can kill the target.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hailie
People complained about cleric stance for a very simple reason, follow me closely here: Because healers were TANK, HEALER AND DPS rolled into one package. That's it. No one should think healers are suppose to be easy kills. Without a enmity system in place in pvp this would make playing a healer a absolute nightmare. DPS is a problem because they have the already excel at the other two archetypes. That's already one more than what other classes can do.
DRG, MNK, BLM, SMN, BRD: Only are good at dps
PLD: Not good at DPS nor can Tank
MRD ?
WHM, SCH: Excelled at Healing, Tanking and DPS.
How can you not see that as a problem? Try not too look at it through your own personal experience but from a objective perspective. From the perspective of game mechanics healers being able to pull off all three roles make absolutely positively no sense in this game. -
09-22-2014, 02:45 AMHailieI see your point and I understand what your saying but at the same time we didnt ask to be tanks we were forced into doing it, as far as dpsing if a healer has free time when no one needs to be healed why not be able to do some dmg..Quote:
Originally Posted by Domira
There are times when healers are unable to make it to their allies to do this, alot of the time there is more then 1 target. Healers already walk around with a target stamped on our backs...Quote:
Originally Posted by Domira
People just got very upset that we weren't as easy to kill as they expected when FL came out, I just do not agree with SE getting rid of CS in pvp completely. -
09-22-2014, 02:53 AMDomiraI will tell you with 100% certainty, you do not want a enmity system in pvp. It has no place in a competitive environment and would cause so many complaints, far more than anyone has seen here. Imagine you healing and suddenly your target is changed to the enemy tank? Then imagine if there were two enemy tanks doing the same thing. Sure you didn't ask to be a tank, but in pvp you should of expected this. Especially if you are a pvp veteran. Healers are usually the primary target in pvp. Because of this they need to be durable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hailie
Happens to all classes. As a PLD there are a few times when I'm chased down by multiple people. I sometimes can reach friendlies, sometimes not. So I would say what you are experiencing is normal. There is no difference between healers durability now and before they removed cleric stance. So I find it odd how you keep mentioning easy kill in conjunction with CS since it does not increase your durability. Only your offense. So from this perspective you can still survive the exact same as when you had CS, except it might be higher since a healer will never have CS up. So no healing penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hailie
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09-22-2014, 02:55 AMGorwhich is a shame because the NA servers feel more like SE's neglected stepchild and the game quality has gone down for many players considerably because of a few bad apples in JP. i know more than a dozen people who have quit this game and my ls and friendlist is getting shorter and shorter by the month as i no longer are seeing what used to be full time players, that now have not logged on for weeks or even months.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
i'm not crucifying SE for using the same practice. i'm crucifying SE for choosing the most boring, un-innovative and un-creative ways of dealing with pvp issues, which seems to be when in doubt, take it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
this game could be so much more but SE rather streamline everything and hold us back by spending their time policing players' playstyles rather than just letting the pvp community evolve so it can move up to a higher level of play. the way SE is doing it, pvp is going to be stuck at the same rudimentary and elementary environment for months or even forever. players will never be able to do anything different from the basic abilities their class is expected to do, which is boring and uninteresting and i'm not jus referring to SCH, i'm referring to all classes. it will only hold player interest for so long. that's prolly why they're coming out with 8v8v8 because they know they can't fully police a 72 and 48 man efficiently without people crying a river about something.
right now FL is jus running on the fumes of still being new but after its been out for a while, it'll prolly just turn into another ghost town like WD if JP doesn't come up with something to strike player interest and censoring and butchering classes ain't the way to do it. -
09-22-2014, 03:44 AMZyphioneI would not say NA is neglected? PvP is new to game and game is only 1 year old which recover after very big disappointment. Developer can take many suggestion but we do not know what it plan for future patch? Maybe they have idea to work on PvP more but need to follow schedule to release past promise feature first?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gor
In other thread people have tell me that NA player in PvP majority very lazy? This way then they do not use many overpower PvP tactic? JP player usually have many class most game so easier to pick out what is overpower and what is not because sample pool bigger.
As Divine say, if many play SCH and always stance and go alone then something very wrong already. Developer also play PvP on all server? Maybe have been on receive end for people play stance SCH and never die?
I would like to ask for different perspective from you, I am sorry if sound rude by saying this. Please excuse me.
Do you think possible to change stance right now exclusive to PvP as many suggestion been given? We say maybe make healer take 20% more damage if active and also reduce heal to 0% and also increase stance switch time from 5 second to 10 second? Just example.
It sound like entirely new skill in PvP, am I right to say this?
It sound better to just remove unfair advantage stance the way it is now. Can not modify just for PvP because you change whole skill meaning and what skill does. I think if developer can modify as they want, they will not have remove it.
This is just different view.
I am sure many pvper want higher level of play, who do not? It make pvp more fun and better, also make more player want to try. At the moment PvP still new and my belief is maybe they just testing water first, see what is good and what need modifying. Remove some skill, see how player play, then plan more for future? Even I can not say because I am not developer. In many of developer interview, question ask of many thing with controversy in game like make content too hard and etc but developer has said statistic always show otherwise even for region specific?
I do not agree with stance remove if completely remove and never come back, I only agree if in future they use current situation to improve more idea for future. You say before that Blizzard take many years to improve PvP? If play first WoW before expansion, many rogue with AQR and Tier 3 gear can eviscerate damage player for 90% of HP. Maybe here also start out slowly but eventually will become fun for PvP in future?
Too early to tell for now, but we try to enjoy what we can.
In latest live letter broadcast, developer mentioned he will try to improve PvP more from all feedback he seen and maybe improve Wolf Den too because many player neglect it? Only time will tell us how they plan to do, since they understand almost nobody do wolf den. It was mention he will work on it and improve slowly? Gather feedback again after some change then observe again? :o -
09-22-2014, 04:46 AMDivinemightYou have touched an interst point that we should discuss about. What is SE (Yoship)'s PvP balance concept? You have played WoW, then you must aware of that long dispute between WoW PvP community and the Ghostcrawler on whether there should be two set of values to distinguish between PvP and PvE. PvE side is demanding a set of separate value in order to prevent them being impact by PvP adjustment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gor
Ghostcrawler is solid on giving a NO as an answer and pretty much every other MMO is using the same practice. Now we look back at FF14, this is the only MMO I know of that is using two set of values, an unique set of PvP actions. This doesn't happen to all those retro PvP games. We yet have see any complaint from PvE side because of this practice. It is maybe Yoship want keep Cleric Stance to be a PvE only action? Zyphione, do you want to comment on this as well? -
09-22-2014, 06:38 AMZyphioneThe game is different because of system where you have PvP action and PvE action and value not modified to do both thing? I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinemight
Stance created and made this way it is because of solo to level or fast dungeon run but when bring it into PvP, become more or less too strong. When introduce PvP to the game, developer make some PvP action and is developer way of not disturbing PvE focus people while try to give PvP to community.
PvP is not unplayable because this system in place.
Player just refuse to play it.
Like I say before, Producer has say he will observe change and work with feedback he can work with, which mean feedback that is good and make sense.
Typing many post of "I don't want to play" is not helping the decision because is not even feedback. Tell him to put back skill is also not feedback. Maybe give him idea of a new skill you make, along with pro and con? That is real feedback. If can outline many situation in PVP where will be not overpower? It is better this way.
I believe SqE only remove skill because skill really can not be help in PvP. It is first skill they remove, other thing is just side-effect. (SMN slow)
Side-effect might be easy to remove than compare to adjusting entire skill itself, every suggestion give by player to lessen stance, if read, change what stance is completely. Only way to "fix" is to remove until further notice because of how many player level SCH to PVP.
Regard to WoW player politics with developer?
Ghostcrawler was use to many year of player saying "I wish you get replaced" or "I have better idea" or "I quit game and nobody will play when change so stupid", his change did not break many class even if he enjoy destroying Paladin. Destruction during longest time was in shadow of Affliction but people make many video and teach other how to play and soon many destruction spec player was seen in battleground. Even during tournament, spectator can find many flaw with team gameplay and tell why one team lose, but never say is because "developer break skill so healer do no damage".
This context comparable to FF14 as many people do not play PvP and blame developer for make them useless but still many player is ok in Frontline? Only reason PvP seem little after change is because many boycott and refuse to adapt.
I mention this in Aetherflow thread. How many people now complain "SCH unplayable because my aetherflow useless and always gone by MNK!" ?
You rarely see healer have time to dps in many game and reason is good. This do not mean healer can not dps but just that it not strong, it was very strong with stance but now become more or less normal.
If WoW player do not believe then they can observe duel between Restoration Druid (healer) and Retribution Paladin (DPS) who currently have Word of Glory (decent healing spell) and Druid that is not Balance (DPS) or Feral (DPS) not expected to do very high damage to self-heal class? Paladin will Glory heal all Druid damage and fight will not end in many case. Then Druid fly away in bird form after tornado and laugh at you.
In FF14 PvP before stance remove? Healer will defeat you then emote on your body, which is not correct.
If many player attacking Druid beside just 1 DPS, Druid might be in danger of being defeated.
This then come down to "player skill".
If many player never interrupt Druid, use wrong skill or use all stun at 100% HP, Druid will laugh and sprint far away then bird form and emote as he fly above you.
If many player manage stun well and focus damage, Druid will be defeated very fast.
This is currently same in FF14 after stance remove.
Am I right to say this?
Healer have return to what they played to be: Healer. They have very high survival ability but not invincible and not a DPS class. Able to DPS with what DPS skill they have but not strong enough to defeat enemy player unless enemy player ambush you alone and choose to let you DoT health away and do not retreat.
For developer to balance player skill and PVP play is not easy because of many people who boycott change, is worse here because PVP community not large. This do not mean such player get what they want by boycott PVP, just mean they are childish gamer who want everything their way instead of adapt to the change developer implement. It is difference between some gamer and other? Not everyone need to be very skill player, just need to work around change and get rid of doomsday theory in order to improve.
Developer way of managing not boring or uninnovative? This change was needed change to revert healer back to original role because MND stat convert made SCH damage over time very similar to SMN. Damage a little lower but maybe by 50 point? and also no fester for high damage.
Still very painful with Ruin 2 spam.
Maybe future patch will have more PvP skill, we do not know. We can only imagine and enjoy what we can until next update with new PvP map? Maybe other thing will happen as well. -
09-24-2014, 04:41 AMNarukuchan
I've found that since the removal of Cleric Stance from Frontlines and/or PvP has to be honest made our damage drop significantly especially when using Holy and sure I can see the whole wanting to balance it and all, but honestly there currently isn't any real balance at least from what I have seen. But when you're in Alliance B and having to assist/dps drones and nodes it has made doing that a lot harder in that respect. I mean stone, aero, aero II etc and some cross skills from SMN help yes, as does repose but its still made it just meh.
So I hope they either give us something back to replace the fact we've lost the ability or give us it back. (I do sometimes miss WoW in that respect because PvP in that was just so much fun alas...well time will tell I guess)
And it isn't just me who feels this way a lot of people who play WHM in Frontlines/PvP feel the same. -
09-24-2014, 05:19 AMNorthernLadMSP
To me, the main thing that is completely imbalanced about PVP is the fact that EVERY SINGLE ATTACK UNDER THE SUN interrupts all casters. Even the few tools we're given to combat this don't work a lot of the time. Surecast, Swiftcast and Equanimity can all be interrupted, which at times makes them totally useless too.
They need to change this and make it so attacks have a CHANCE at interrupting, not a guaranteed 100% of the time. -
09-24-2014, 05:21 AMLeanoure
I agree with them taking it off. Sch has very high dot dps and eos is like a sub healer so it's like 1 dps and 1 heal per sch (if they know how to play it) and for healers if there's more than 3 whms we just put up regents and medica 2s on all and holy spam and aero to interrupt casters and holy can do a LOT of dmg .
The fact once cleric stanced healers hit as hard as blms and smns would .. While healing too so it was an imbalance :) -
09-24-2014, 07:26 AMtehomegakingNo. Healers don't even come close to true DPS classes output. Just look at their skills and compare. Decent damage, but nothing special.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leanoure
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09-24-2014, 08:06 AMTriksteRhttp://www.netanimations.net/Moving-...ointing-up.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
80% instead of 100%, would be great. -
09-24-2014, 08:25 AMGorsomeone else talkin out the side of their neck. on average a BLM hits for around 500-700+ with basic attacks and Astral Fire III full stacks, even as high as with 1k-1700+ with special attacks like flare. on average a SCH in Cleric hits for around 150-200 with Ruin II and around 400-500ish, maybe even 600-700ish with Energy Drain and will probably never see a 1k+ hit in FL unless its some miracle crit from Zeus himself. so please tell me how SCHs hit as hard as BLMs and SMNs again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Leanoure
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09-24-2014, 10:52 AMDivinemight
It is probably because straight cast vs dots and dot prevails on Frontline because of straight cast is vulnerable to the interrupt. This is BLM's weakness. For SMN, their strength is ther pet, but it is also their weakness. Once the pet is shadowbined, they are just punch bags. This created a delusion that SCH is more bursts than both SMN and BLM.
What is the potential of SCH dots? I am only able to find one spreadsheet to analyze:
http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/ff14eotan...3/033e6a33.jpg
This is a scholar's performance in T9. Since this is PvE and he is a healer, I will take assumption that he is in mind gear without cleric stance. His HPS is 463.69 and his eos did 343.91. He is pretty much healing and dotting, I doubt he is using rune 2 while healing in T9. I am taking assumption that his damage is from dos only. He did 70％ of SMN's damage (this SMN is probably bad to be fair).
By using this data, if SCH is scale into INT attributes, INT accessories, cleric stance and perform purely as a dps. His DPS would push to Bard while there is a EOS automatically function like 75% performance. This is also another reason why he got a delusion that SCH is more bursts because of high healing ability -
09-24-2014, 06:37 PMVaeriaGee..and here I was under the assumption the words 'all around' kiiiiiinda indicated 'generaly everybody, friend and foe." Sorry for not making that clear Gor.^^; ..anyway, considering I usually play reckless enough to not get heals in time anyway, no, I STILL don't see it being a loss for me (or anyone else for that matter who has a highly aggressive, less -stay by the healz and keep meh alive prz- style) which would be the same for enemy team . Ya know, 'all around'. Theeeen again, maybe its a mote point, considering unlike brds, blms and smns, when attacked, have lasting ability rivaling plds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gor
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09-24-2014, 07:24 PMSeoulstar
Out of all the games I've played. I have never seen people complain about healers defending themselves. Let alone, blindly ignore how easy it is to actually interrupt a healers cast..if you wanna talk about balance. You better talk about that as well. But I guess it's pointless now since people got what they want and basically handicapped healers.
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09-28-2014, 04:39 PMLeanoure
Hello first of all I said healers not schs as a whm I can critical 700 stone 2 in cleric stance anD I have seen 6 sch party with 2 tanks take out people faster than regular party ups would. 200 in cleric stance? R u going part vit gear? And in terms of characters potency healer having similar in in state of cleric is insane . My chr has high critical I crited 1k+ holies 3 times in a row in a wolves den before while I was getting my party healed 800+ per sec with regen and medical 2. Can't see why healers shouldn't be nerfed.
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09-28-2014, 04:50 PMLeanoureHealers can hit as hard as BLMs and smns in pvp. 1k+ holy possible done it so many times. 790 fluid aura while healing. The fact that the dmg can be that high while healingQuote:
Originally Posted by Gor
Was a total imbalance.. particularly in front line if the party HD more than 4healers. If it were to be 5 monks or 5 plds 5 blms they wouldn\\'t be as ridiculous. I had 6 healers p remade party before we won few days straight wiping out the enemy team no matter what classes they had.. isn\\'t that broken lol -
09-28-2014, 08:16 PMGorno. that's not broken. when stacking a full premade of straight any class, it would be able to wipe out any enemy team no matter what classes they have. class domination will always be able to wipe out an entire party. if it were 8 PLDs, 8 DRGs, 8 BLMs, 8 whatever, it would still be able to wipe out any class because its stacking strong class signature abilities that weren't all intended to be there all at one time. 8 BLMs would be able to 100% lockout healers with sleep while they kill their party. 8 PLDs in full dps gear could stunlock out all healers and kill them as well while they kill their party. same with 8 MNKs/DRGs would be able to just zerg down anything because they can out-dps the heals. 8 SMNs of course would be a no-brainer, no heals for anybody with all the dots and garudas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leanoure
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09-29-2014, 03:27 AMDimitrii
I'd love to see that 8 paladin party make-up in action cause I'm extremely skeptical of that being able wipe anybody. The paladins can only stun lock whoever they target for so long and their attack is so pathetic I cant see them killing anyone before the stun resist kicks in and the dps start to collectively curb stomp these tanks with no healing back up. All a whm would have to do is throw some regen, medica 2 and stoneskin on party before they engage and thats enough already to live through the initial stun lock + the already sad subsequent dmg output paladin throws out. And this is assuming parties dont utilize any form of cc on them whatsoever (sleep, bind, etc). The only stack class setup to be feared is whm or sch (since it takes precise coordination to dismember that is normally not seen in non premade frontline groups) and SE has already cut the effectiveness of that via cleric stance block. So while they are still very hard to kill un-coordinated, they pose next to no threat in wiping your party with all those stacked heals (assuming your party has the standard 2 heal minimum that most groups aim for) resulting in a stalemate. Perhaps an all blm party could also pose a problem if they can get everyone slept and synchronize their flares but they have a much smaller margin for error than heals since melee can wreck em in under 10 seconds if they fail to stick some form of cc on them. Otherwise no one fears an all drg, mnk, pld, war, smn, or brd set up.
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09-29-2014, 08:34 PMVaeriaOn a side note, the collective will of 8 plds can also nullify purify, cancel regen, bind from a distance/cancel sprint, and do 1.5k spirits within. Be warned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gor
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09-29-2014, 09:49 PMNarukuchan
You know since WHM's lost this ability, I think black mages need to lose the ability to cast sleep over and over. Since WHM's & SCH's got a setback, so should they.. xD
#killonsightBLMs -
09-29-2014, 10:53 PMEvangela
How does it make PvP more balance? now WHM can't do anything but heal.
meanwhile, BLM's AoE Sleep is still overpowered as always. -
09-30-2014, 12:15 AMSkeetI saw an adder party with 8 PLD's and they all died and couldn't hold a point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitrii
1) Um, every class can purify and it's instant. Really don't know where you were going with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaeria
2) Because WHM's can't re-cast an instant spell like regen.
3) Bind from a distance? Wrong class buddy.
4) Cancel sprint? All melees can as well.
5) 1.5k Spirits Within is a TAD bit over-exaggerated.
-Don't spout off nonsense; I'm sure that I'm not the only one who found your comment hilarious.
1) No other classes can heal as hard as WHM's/Sch's. It's logically justifiable. Keyword on logically justifiable. Maybe if a BLM or SMN could heal as good as them then your argument may have some merit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangela
2) BLM's sleep got nerfed already and by the time a good party got slept once, someone SHOULD always be on a BLM. Once equanimity is done BLM becomes the worst class in the game because they can't do anything if someone is on them.
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Seriously, to all the people crying about the nerf, WHM and SCH's are still good. If these classes had the time to dps then the other team wasn't good or just flat-out sucked. Learn how to play your classes before you spout off ridiculous biased comments and say how other classes should be nerfed. -
09-30-2014, 05:01 AMRiceisNice
This is why you don't hand people so much power in the first place... Take away and it becomes an issue. I never really liked the concept of a WHM or SCH (being healing classes) still be capable of damage dealing to the same degree, if not more effectively compared to...well... damage classes.
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09-30-2014, 10:16 AMStormrider
8 skilled plds would wipe any group except blms. I have seen plds kill solo whms. The problem with pld or war is the skill needed. I don't know when you start to resist stun but the interrupts with stun and silence can stop you from healing.
Also the loss of cleric stance most affects group play against other healers. Its a bit harder to help when you see the other healer at 20%, and you want to make sure they die. There isn't a monk, dragoon, smn, or bard I can't kill. Strangely only bards seem to be the class that try to 1 on 1 healers. Its not my extra dps that makes healers better then dps 1 on 1. Its the gear. If healers were capped at some silly 3k hp then we would get curb stomped. -
09-30-2014, 11:30 AMHollowedShush brd, you are not a dps your a harasser in frontlines. Even with this nerf you still will not take down a healer by yourself, the very nature that they can OUT LAST YOU is why people cried OP in the first place, healers were not OP, you were never meant to, and still will not be able to take them down by yourself. The PVP in this game is being balanced around playing as a TEAM, and when you have the holy trinity in a MMO with PVP and no way to control enmity the healer is always the first target, and as such should be able to outlast any SINGLE class, which includes DPS. So if this game is to be balanced around a team based PVP healer will always last longer than a DPS, you will never be able to kill them by yourself, not if they know what they are doing. The only difference now is that killing you takes twice as long, but you will still die none the less, making the job that much more dry and boring, the nature of a healer when you try to 1v1 them should always beat you, no reason it should take twice as long to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
P.S. If you don't like dying to a healer 1v1, bring your pt, the healer is stupid to be alone anyway. -
09-30-2014, 03:43 PMDimitriiThis sounds more like 8 extremely skilled paladins can wipe any group of mediocre or poorly skilled players (assuming standard 2 heals 1 tank 5 dps set up). Don't overestimate how effective stun locking is. Trust me I've run into plenty of plds solo on my drg who try that stun locking nonsense on me, you build up resistance extremely quick. Only really the first stun can be considered truly effective as it lasts like 5 seconds or something (and against 8 plds you can just purify that first stun away anyway since you dont need to worry about sleep) but the subsequent stuns last shorter and shorter (third stun i think only lasts 1 sec) and the pld with the animation delay and its already weak attack isnt really doing much dmg to a dps in that span. Not only that but the paladins have to be extremely adept at chaining the stuns together so as to not allow the enemy to counter with their own stun, knockback, sleep, etc (and given that you have no idea when they may decide to pop purify this can be harder than you'd think). As a drg the only time a pld is ever able to kill me one on one is if he has HG up (and even that has a long recast like 6 min iirc), otherwise the burst dmg the job naturally has can normally kill a pld before he can muster the dmg it takes to kill me (have a harder time against war solo tbh). And in a party situation if the party goes in with the standard whm/sch buffs before they engage idk how you are expecting the paladins to kill anybody through those buffs and before the dps and healers start becoming highly resistant or straight immune to the stuns. Maybe if more than one paladin start attacking the healer they could kill them before they start using stuff like benediction, attunement or sacred soil but then that means some dps will be free to deal dmg on them since they arent being stunned. And once all those dps start resisting the stuns it will not take long at all for those paladins to die under the onslaught of incoming dmg with no healing support. Also I'm not sure about the caster classes and bard (since I typically only play drg or whm in frontlines) but god forbid that 8 pld party run into a party where the opposing dps are all melee. All melee would need to do is pop fetter ward and that gives them 8 to 12 seconds to blow all their cooldowns on the paladin while they are still trying to dmg them through all the pre buffs the melees received prior to engaging (assuming they arent still trying to nonsensically spam stun on them while they have fetter ward up). I'm not sure about monk since i dont play it in pvp but drg can inflict extremely severe amounts of burst dmg by blowing all those cooldowns plus the jumps. I'm fairly sure monk can in a similar fashion as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormrider
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09-30-2014, 09:57 PMGorthe voice of reasonQuote:
Originally Posted by Hollowed