The reason Summoner needs revamp threads keep popping up

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Originally Posted by Jediman

I don't blame him I don't mind it as well because I don't want the DoT class lol

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I can appreciate not liking that aspect, but that part of the job is here to stay. Hopefully egis improve, and you get more variety from them, however, you just need to embrace the DOTs.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

I can appreciate not liking that aspect, but that part of the job is here to stay. Hopefully egis improve, and you get more variety from them, however, you just need to embrace the DOTs.

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lets not forget they can give the DoT class to other class's in the future as of now its restricted SE needs to think hard.

Do they want us summoners to have pure DoT or pure Egi or are they going to balances it. I would have egi any day.

Also are they going to restrict DoT even further if the Egi are powered up like they done with bane limited it to 3 mobs, when they can make a new class's in the future and call it some other class name for it and not restrict it.

Well i really do not like SMN at all in XIV. it was my first class, was really excited about it untill i found out it was mostly a DoT class, Thats all fine for people who like that but for me, its a big nono. I played SMN in XI, because i enjoyed how awesome it was(Even though people didn't like them in party's and by some were considered useless untill AB and later stuff) Yet i solo'd NMs that people couldn't even come close to back then. If you knew how to play that class it was a very powerfull solo class, It was awesome just to roam through out vanadiel,(with any class really)

And thats another thing i'm missing in Eorzea, there is really no point in roaming about.

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

Well i really do not like SMN at all in XIV. it was my first class, was really excited about it untill i found out it was mostly a DoT class, Thats all fine for people who like that but for me, its a big nono. I played SMN in XI, because i enjoyed how awesome it was(Even though people didn't like them in party's and by some were considered useless untill AB and later stuff) Yet i solo'd NMs that people couldn't even come close to back then. If you knew how to play that class it was a very powerfull solo class, It was awesome just to roam through out vanadiel,(with any class really)

And thats another thing i'm missing in Eorzea, there is really no point in roaming about.

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Are you implying you would rather have an awesome, useless class than an involving and incredibly powerful one despite it's looks? You aren't getting the avatars you got in XI. They would cause problems both on screen lag and impeding the view to see mechanics of boss fights.

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Originally Posted by Jediman

lets not forget they can give the DoT class to other class's in the future as of now its restricted SE needs to think hard.

Do they want us summoners to have pure DoT or pure Egi or are they going to balances it. I would have egi any day.

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I think they need to balance the Summoner between Dots and Pets. Based on what Egi is out the Summoner gains control over that specific element ie
Ifrit Egi -The Summoner gains ability to summon fire down from the skin which apply burning dots to up to 4 enemies
Titan Egi - The Summoner gains the ability to summon earth quakes which apply heavy to all enemies in the aoe
Garuda Egi - The Summoner gains the ability to summon tornados which apply wind burn to all enemies.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

I think they need to balance the Summoner between Dots and Pets. Based on what Egi is out the Summoner gains control over that specific element ie
Ifrit Egi -The Summoner gains ability to summon fire down from the skin which apply burning dots to up to 4 enemies
Titan Egi - The Summoner gains the ability to summon earth quakes which apply heavy to all enemies in the aoe
Garuda Egi - The Summoner gains the ability to summon tornados which apply wind burn to all enemies.

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That would make sense if they let the egi do the dotting tho.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

A new caster job would bury the Summoner. There'd be a bunch of Summoner's going to Blue Mage.

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Why? What prove do you have for this?

You also state that blm is better in every aspect, really? Blm are better in burst and AOE if there are more than 4 mobs, that's it. Smn has better single target, 1-4 multi-target, sustained damage, mobility, utility and a swiftcast res. With all these advantages how in the hell would another caster bury the summoner?

For those of you just joining us today, keep in mind that most, if not all of the OP's posts thus far are pretty much pulled straight from the air having no evidence to support his or her arguments.

Rofl, some of the rationale here is just silly.

Almost every suggestion on what the Summoner "should be" is just exaggerated comparisons to 11.
The only other incarnation of Summoner in that capacity are situations where they replace the entire party.
In some cases (Type-0), they cause the Summoner to be KO'd.
You have a single character, you aren't going to get those massive summoned creatures like in 11 again, especially considering the lore.

And there are tons of non-main FF games where Summoner calls down a creature for a single attack.
Like the Tactics games.
They have immense cast times and tons of problematic drawbacks.
In a lot of games, the Summons have extra support abilities (9, Tactics), but we have Bard for that.
Big bursty single target: we have Dragoon.
Big bursty AOE: already covered by Black Mage.
Most things the summoner has done, mechanic-wise, are already implemented in other classes.

Yes, it would be cool to have a more awesome Limit Break.
Yes, it would be cool to channel dots through the Egi that have different effects more unique to the Egi.
Even if they changed effects on Rouse/Spur, changed the diseases to something based off the Egi (Searing Wind or something), as improbable and not worth the effort as it would be, people would still complain that it "doesn't feel powerful enough."
And why would you expect it to in an MMO setting when even in the single player games, that power has some huge cost attached to it?

EDIT: I changed my mind. They should just change Bio / Bio 2 / Miasma to have some sort of different graphic/color depending on the Egi, make it have less potency when an Egi isn't out/dead, and change the LB graphic. People will stop complaining about the mechanic if its in a different package. >_>

Dude it is better they remove the DoT class on smn and make a new class in the future for DoT and not limit bane ability

As stated, it makes sense according to the lore of XIV that summoners do not summon full-on primals. You'd have to answer to the Scions after every fight for sucking up enough aether to summon a primal. That said, of course the egis are not as powerful as a primal, so you don't have ridiculous burst damage. The egi and resulting DOT DPS style make absolutely perfect sense, considering the lore of the game you are playing.

It sounds like you dudes want a caster bard (bursty, pretty sustainable, mobile DPS.... but a caster), if that means blue mage, well then please look forward to it. This job is fine, and freaking awesome.

Would make sense if the egi did the doting lol

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Originally Posted by Jediman

Would make sense if the egi did the doting lol

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DOTing is (or should be) a dynamic and involved process, depending on the fight at hand. Giving people the potential to put the most intricate part of their job on auto-pilot seems dumb.

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Originally Posted by Jediman

Dude it is better they remove the DoT class on smn and make a new class in the future for DoT and not limit bane ability

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(ノ ゜Д゜)ノ ︵ ┻━┻

There is an entire thread on why Bane is limited.
I do not understand why all of these threads are "x class has this, I want to be able to do x, too."
Do people not understand that classes have strengths AND weaknesses?

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

DOTing is (or should be) a dynamic and involved process, depending on the fight at hand. Giving people the potential to put the most intricate part of their job on auto-pilot seems dumb.

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Beat me to it.

Would make sense if the egi did the doting lol

They screwed the story for primals and because of that they have nerfed summoner egi down, maybe they might end up nerfing blm down maybe they lose there magic in the future of the story as a result of that they started using swords and shield. lol

This does not justify why the class can't be played fully as a normal summoner class.

How is bane limited? No mana cost to get 110 potency per 3 sec on 3 extra targets. That you can the bolster with miasma II and shadowflare (which also slows) and then blizzard II spam while next to the mobs. You're saying you want to make it overpowered by spreading to all enemies? Really? Blm has 100 potency per 2.5 sec buffed with astral fire, I'm not sure how much damage astral fire III gives? 30%? (An experienced blm can surely correct me.) So you want to take away blm's part of the mechanics pie? That sounds quite selfish if you ask me.

As for DoT class, guess what, as you've deduced in other threads the summoner is a DoT and summon class. It does both fairly well imo. Also why can't they make a new DoT class as an alternative to the summoner and keep the dots on summoner? I don't get the problem here. It's not like they'll remove the single target burst of the dragoon to make another single target burst class.

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Originally Posted by i2agnarok

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There is an entire thread on why Bane is limited.
I do not understand why all of these threads are "x class has this, I want to be able to do x, too."
Do people not understand that classes have strengths AND weaknesses?

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by putting DoT class as summoner when they can make a new class for it?

I would opt in for egi rather then stick with DoT class strengths AND weaknesses in egi

A "summoner" in this game doesn't exist, except for groups of beastmen that are subsequently brainwashed by their primals. You wanna become brainwashed every fight?

I think you didn't pay attention to my point. Egis can be put on auto-pilot, and DOTing is the most intricate part of your job. If you have the potential to auto-pilot the most important part of your job, we will have the most unproductive players possible. Pug parties would never let summoners in.

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Originally Posted by Jediman

Would make sense if the egi did the doting lol

They screwed the story for primals and because of that they have nerfed summoner egi down, maybe they might end up nerfing blm down maybe they lose there magic in the future of the story as a result of that they started using swords and shield. lol

This does not justify why the class can't be played fully as a normal summoner class.

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What? Why would they nerf black mage?

He/she is being bitter and sarcastic.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

A "summoner" in this game doesn't exist, except for groups of beastmen that are subsequently brainwashed by their primals. You wanna become brainwashed every fight?

I think you didn't pay attention to my point. Egis can be put on auto-pilot, and DOTing is the most intricate part of your job. If you have the potential to auto-pilot the most important part of your job, we will have the most unproductive players possible. Pug parties would never let summoners in.

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Well i would want full control over my egi and what it does

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Originally Posted by Jediman

Well i would want full control over my egi and what it does

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You want a completely different class, we get it, prolly ain't gonna happen with the name "summoner" anytime soon. Perhaps beastmaster is exactly what you want.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

What? Why would they nerf black mage?

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just saying since summoners primals powers have shrunk down as of result of egi being nerfed due to the story line. just a funny remark for those that understood it :P

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

You want a completely different class, we get it, prolly ain't gonna happen with the name "summoner" anytime soon. Perhaps beastmaster is exactly what you want.

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nope i don't want a completely different class i want the summoner class the name says it all lol

Red mage DoT yes please lol

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

He/she is being bitter and sarcastic.

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I somewhat gathered, but I'm not unsure about what. I mean summoner has higher single target output, can insta-rez, decent AOE ability, etc. I'd say overall summoner is a stronger class in the right hands. Not that I have any problems with black mage. Both casters serve vital roles right now, and I like to have each in my raids. I as I've said many times in the thread I can understand wanting some tweaks to egis and some more variety in that regard, but outside of that summoner has good tools to work with.

And I agree with you on the pets doing the DOTing. Why autopilot the aspect of the class that needs the most attention? That would be like having my DOTs being applied just by me getting Greased Lightning stacks or something. It would take so much away from what I do.

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Originally Posted by Jediman

nope i don't want a completely different class i want the summoner class the name says it all lol

Red mage DoT yes please lol

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Since you and Akiza keep wanting to harp on lore, and specifically how the classes played in FFXI. Why would red mage DOT? If it was introduced it would need to be the first true support job in the game and be more buff/debuff oriented. Also the big red mage thing was elemental weapon augmentation.

All I'm seeing is "I want to be able to do everything BLM does."
The only "nerf" of the Summoner job is your perspective on it.
As I already said, Summoner has extreme drawbacks in almost every other game that it has been its own entity.
It would not make for a balanced MMO environment.

By your definition of how you want to spin the lore, they could simply take all of the DoTs, change their animations/potency based on the Egi being out and it would still be a DoT class and still be a Summoner.
If you put the DoTs on the Egi, it wouldn't be doing its own moves existing moves, you'd be spamming Ruin or whatever other offensive spell you'd have access to since you're not dotting, and Summoner would be even more broken.
Your ideas do not fit in with the game at all.

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Originally Posted by i2agnarok

All I'm seeing is "I want to be able to do everything BLM does."
The only "nerf" of the Summoner job is your perspective on it.
As I already said, Summoner has extreme drawbacks in almost every other game that it has been its own entity.
It would not make for a balanced MMO environment.

By your definition of how you want to spin the lore, they could simply take all of the DoTs, change their animations/potency based on the Egi being out and it would still be a DoT class and still be a Summoner.
If you put the DoTs on the Egi, it wouldn't be doing its own moves existing moves, you'd be spamming Ruin or whatever other offensive spell you'd have access to since you're not dotting, and Summoner would be even more broken.
Your ideas do not fit in with the game at all.

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you will be giving the commands to your egi for those things rather you doting O.o and there should be a limit break bar for each smn egi so they can full power attack once (just like in final fantasy 7 just an idea)

It all goes down to summoner being a summoner class for egi supporting them in any ways by means of damage output, Dots etc
Not the other way round You using garuda and she supporting you for damage output lol

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Originally Posted by Jediman

you will be giving the commands to your egi for those things rather you doting O.o

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That's what I just said.
You give the Command, Egi does the dotting. Only now, since its spending its time doing Dots, its not doing any of its other moves that it already has.
A Summoner spends most of its time with DoTs depending on the number of enemies.
Not only does it move the source of your damage from its standard attacks, its now doing what you would be doing otherwise.
So what are you doing while its dotting? Probably spamming Ruin while your pet is DoTing.
Its extremely inefficient and doesn't do anything by switch around who is doing what.
Yes, you could play with the potency or something, I suppose.
But its far worse and even less fun than how the class already behaves.
It makes even less sense to have an Egi using DoTs than its standard attacks, anyway.

It's hilarious, because Egis DOTing would effectively mean that they are hitting even softer (yet quicker) than they already are; a direct contradiction to what the complainers are complaining about.

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Originally Posted by i2agnarok

That's what I just said.
You give the Command, Egi does the dotting. Only now, since its spending its time doing Dots, its not doing any of its other moves that it already has.
A Summoner spends most of its time with DoTs depending on the number of enemies.
Not only does it move the source of your damage from its standard attacks, its now doing what you would be doing otherwise.
So what are you doing while its dotting? Probably spamming Ruin while your pet is DoTing.
Its extremely inefficient and doesn't do anything by switch around who is doing what.
Yes, you could play with the potency or something, I suppose.
But its far worse and even less fun than how the class already behaves.
It makes even less sense to have an Egi using DoTs than its standard attacks, anyway.

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You will be buffing the avatars egi what else and dotting the mobs to increase the damage out put of the egi to the mob (just an idea)
You will be full time supporting your dam egi, so all the AoE ability used as summoner go to egi.

The idea is great its allowing the egi to do damage rather then the summoner.

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Originally Posted by Jediman

You will be buffing the avatars egi what else and dotting the mobs to increase the damage out put of the egi to the mob (just an idea)

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I don't even....
So your Egi is DoTing.
You're buffing...with your two buffs that you have.
These buffs have a cooldown.
So now, either your DoTs are currently even more powerful than before because you've buffed the Egi.
And if you nerf DoT potency to compensate, it means its going to be useless when buffs are on cooldown.
Ultimately, this makes the Summoner worse than it currently is while doing nothing but making you feel like you're commanding it.
This sounds like a train wreck unless I am terribly misunderstanding you.

who said regarding 2 buffs lets say summoners swaps the doting to Egi but you still have to use command for it because it won't be auto-piloting.
And have split secs to use certain ability for damage out to make it more challenging for all the egi you have. (just an idea again)
Also when I mean buff it can be for offensive mode or defensive mode.

Think about it you are attacking a mob fire type and it does a fire move Fire IV or something and you go defensive mode to reduced damage to egi.

Sorry about my crappy English >< since English is not my main language.

Meh the current smn is only just learning to use his summoning magic and soon once we have enough level increases will allow us to summon the primals themselves under our own will.

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The beast tribes of Eorzea worship and summon forth beings known as primals, among which are Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan. Yet what is a god to one man is a demon to another, for the city-states of Eorzea see these beings as a grave threat to their collective survival. In times immemorial, there lived mages who had not only the power to summon the primals, but also the means to transmute the primals' essences, thus binding them to their will. Known simply as summoners, the existence of these men and women and their arcane art have been all but lost to the ages.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Summoner

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....They already take like no damage from AOEs anyway.
And they shouldn't be getting hit by anything else to begin with.
People in this game can't even dodge extremely telegraphed moves, let alone move their pets from them.
Its already been made super easy by having them take less damage.
A mechanic like that would just make things overly complicated in a game that's already extremely simply yet people have problem with.
I just don't think any of these things you're suggested would do nothing more than unnecessarily clutter the game.
The only thing I've even remotely agree with is changing the LB.
MAYBE doing something about the signature skill.
Anything I've seen suggested lately is already compensated by some other mechanic in the game or I've already expressed my thoughts on why it wouldn't work without receiving an answer.

I agree with Madoka, though.
Akiza just wants a gameshark.
I think you are too focused on the aesthetics and not the mechanics behind them, personally.
Your main focus is on the "interaction" with the Egi, but in 95% of FF games, there is little more to them than a big, flashy, super move or a super-being that is powerful enough to replace your entire party.
The former would be boring and extremely graphics-intensive, the latter is not happening in the current game.
I think it would be in your best interest to accept the DoT nature, instead push for reworking of the aesthetics behind the DoTs and move on.
I love Summoning stuff as much as the next guy, but it would not work in the current context of the game, mechanically or story-wise.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

Meh the current smn is only just learning to use his summoning magic and soon once we have enough level increases will allow us to summon the primals themselves under our own will.

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I REALLY don't think they're intending to let you Summon a Primal, on your own, with no ill consequences. The Summoner story already says that they summon a fragment of the Primals. Even the idea that Free Companies would eventually be able to summon their own Primals (whatever happened to that idea is another matter for another thread), there is no hint that a single summoner is ever going to be able to summon a complete Primal.

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Originally Posted by Inosaska

Meh the current smn is only just learning to use his summoning magic and soon once we have enough level increases will allow us to summon the primals themselves under our own will.

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so because of this statement they want to downgrade summoner egi. I have all ready spoken about this read post about black mage using swords and shields lol

The reason why I don't want it as DoT class is because SE will end up making it a full time chore on that side...they might end up downgrading the egi side of it.

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

Please, read my setence again, i said PEOPLE didn´t like them, same with these elitist that only play speedruns with BLM, because its faster.
SMN was a very good class, could be either a support or a offensive job role, And how would it cause screen lag if i may ask? Do you lag when you're fighting Ifrit?
Did you play XI? Avatars were not the real size of the actually avatars, If you're lagging because someone has a decent sized pet you might wanna consider upgrading your PC.

Obviously stuff will lag when you do events like Odin/Behemoth. But that was the same with big events in XI, Even w/o pets.

And lets even put away the size, The avatars right now, imho they are not even close how good they were in XI(i mean combat wise) you had total controll of countless abilities.

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Good point when you have i5 quad core with Radeon HD 7970 plus 8gb ram you don't really see any lags. Most player are blaming the way the game is developed.

SE did not learn on what happened to ps2 when final fantasy XI surpassed graphic wise and dropped the support for PS2 later on I think history will repeat again for ps3 (thats whats holding back now for graphic)

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Originally Posted by Ardan

They would cause problems both on screen lag and impeding the view to see mechanics of boss fights.

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Please, read my setence again, i said PEOPLE didn´t like them, same with these elitist that only play speedruns with BLM, because its faster.
SMN was a very good class, could be either a support or a offensive job role, And how would it cause screen lag if i may ask? Do you lag when you're fighting Ifrit?
Did you play XI? Avatars were not the real size of the actually avatars, If you're lagging because someone has a decent sized pet you might wanna consider upgrading your PC.

Obviously stuff will lag when you do events like Odin/Behemoth. But that was the same with big events in XI, Even w/o pets.

And lets even put away the size, The avatars right now, imho they are not even close how good they were in XI(i mean combat wise) you had total controll of countless abilities.

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

Do you lag when you're fighting Ifrit?

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Apparently there's some extra fight I haven't gotten to where you fight Ifrit in a town or with more than 7 other players on the screen.
How do you plan to see Twintania mechanics when you have large Primals running around and grouped with the rest of your party?

If Odin/Behemoth lags or are very hard to see/target already, how is that NOT going to be a problem when you have bigger graphics on the screen?
And how do you expect to not lag in major cities when a bunch of these people are running around, when there can be choppiness with a bunch of people using the Behemoth mount?
This is terrible for the PS3 people already.
They can't even load Behemoth's sprite in certain conditions.

Yes, elitist that only play speedruns with BLM doesn't affect any other class in the game other than Summoner. /facepalm
Why is that even relevant to the topic at hand when that "issue" isn't exclusive to Summoner AT ALL.
I didn't play 11 long, but it sounds like these "countless abilities" didn't help the class in being picked up very often, judging by your original post.
Summoners in this game can solo about anything that CAN be solo'd, so I completely fail to see how they aren't good when they are one of the most damaging classes in the game.

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Originally Posted by i2agnarok

Apparently there's some extra fight I haven't gotten to where you fight Ifrit in a town or with more than 7 other players on the screen.
How do you plan to see Twintania mechanics when you have large Primals running around and grouped with the rest of your party?

If Odin/Behemoth lags or are very hard to see/target already, how is that NOT going to be a problem when you have bigger graphics on the screen?

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Where do you read that i or anyone else is asking for the actually size of a avatar? That would be plain stupid.

Oy...

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Originally Posted by Blitzace

And how would it cause screen lag if i may ask? Do you lag when you're fighting Ifrit?
Avatars were not the real size of the actually avatars, If you're lagging because someone has a decent sized pet you might wanna consider upgrading your PC.

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Originally Posted by Ardan

You aren't getting the avatars you got in XI. They would cause problems both on screen lag and impeding the view to see mechanics of boss fights.

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He is referring entirely to the size of the avatar causing loading issues. The other 10 (exaggeration) clones of this thread are people, coming from 11, complaining about the Egis not looking like they do in 11 (along with certain degrees of interaction with them). He is directly referencing that. I have no idea how you missed that, yet managed to respond to him and talk about graphics cards.

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Originally Posted by i2agnarok

I think you are too focused on the aesthetics and not the mechanics behind them, personally.
Your main focus is on the "interaction" with the Egi, but in 95% of FF games, there is little more to them than a big, flashy, super move or a super-being that is powerful enough to replace your entire party.
The former would be boring and extremely graphics-intensive, the latter is not happening in the current game.
I think it would be in your best interest to accept the DoT nature, instead push for reworking of the aesthetics behind the DoTs and move on.
I love Summoning stuff as much as the next guy, but it would not work in the current context of the game, mechanically or story-wise.

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I'll quote this for emphasis.

SMN doesn't need an overhaul since it is solidly designed and does what it does fairly well. The only real issues are Contagion/Shining Emerald being on the pet rather than the summoner (which makes Garuda/Emerald Carbuncle much more useful than Ifrit) and Ifrit needing better pathing and maybe a small damage boost. I'd get rid of Tri-disaster and replace it with Contagion/Shining Emerald, give Garuda-egi/Carbuncle something to replace Contagion/SE with (maybe an AoE bind?) and call it a day.