Improve Dragoon DPS. WEAK in comparison to other DPS

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Originally Posted by Jamez82

I'm not heavily into numbers but doing coil 4 last night me (smn) and a blm were out doing a drg and brd by a huge margin and if I remember right they had better gear.

Whwn I tank though I notice drgs draw a huge amount of emnity.

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DRG + BRD do less overall damage than BLM + SMN. BRD are the lowest DPS, even with a DRG boosting them, and especially if they're singing (which I always assume you've brought them to sing, otherwise get another DRG or a MNK. Ballad is a DPS decrease for them, and if he's singing Foe's you can't forget he's boosting YOU, so there's even more of a difference).


A DRG doing things right will be at the top of the aggro list; we have one aggro-dump skill that you do not use unless you absolutely have to, so we only gain aggro, never lose it.

T4, both our DRG will be fighting over tanking the first Knight in phase 2 as our PLD tries to hold aggro on the Soldier (Keen Flurry + Bloodbath works really well here), and on almost every boss fight, I'll be #2 or #3 on the aggro list (depending if its a 4-man or 8-man; right behind the tanks); I look up at the meters on Titan EX occasionally and see me really close to the tanks a lot. And if the DRG is more geared than the tank...that first burst rotation the DRG does can very easily steal aggro if the tank can't generate enough aggro in such a short period of time.

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Originally Posted by Omagana

I find the dragoon rotation far easier than monks, nothing complex about it. A lot of it isn't even positional. Most annoying part of monk I find is keeping my GL3 up in a lot of fights.

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I dunno, DRG has a 31-32 move rotation (that's counting oGCDs, and there is a best way to use them), with absolutely mandatory positionals, for optimal DPS. I don't think it's any harder than MNK or vise versa, but I feel a lot of people saying LOLDRG probably aren't playing the job optimally. For example, I am very very very rarely outdamaged by other DRGs, and all I'm doing is a 32-move rotation. It ain't rocket surgery, but it doesn't seem like everyone's doing it right.

Rocket surgery lol

Yea, I'm only i80 Drg, no Zenith, and am still usually on top of aggro list behind the tanks. All about that rotation.

logrep has the absolute shittiest DPS aggregation and "DPS" numbers, by a landslide, or so my friend tells me.

Anyone who cites "total DPS" as reported by logrep without a screenshot of the damage / DPS breakdown should generally be ignored, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

Given that critical hits have a variety of +% dmg (its not a "fix" %, it can be +22 / + certainly something / +50 / +66%), how come determination is so valuable ?

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Critical hits are +50% damage. All attacks have a +/-5% variance applied for randomness.

Determination just adds more base damage than crit rating adds crit% worth of damage. Well, technically DTR both "adds" base damage and it aggregates with STR to multiply weapon damage.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

I dunno, DRG has a 31-32 move rotation (that's counting oGCDs, and there is a best way to use them), with absolutely mandatory positionals, for optimal DPS. I don't think it's any harder than MNK or vise versa, but I feel a lot of people saying LOLDRG probably aren't playing the job optimally. For example, I am very very very rarely outdamaged by other DRGs, and all I'm doing is a 32-move rotation. It ain't rocket surgery, but it doesn't seem like everyone's doing it right.

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You can pretty much say the same for monk. It's mandatory positionals for optimal monk DPS as well, all of the monk combo moves lose potency if not done from the correct position.

I don't main either monk or dragoon, I know the dragoon rotation is long and I very much doubt I do it flawlessly, but I do find it flows better than monks and is easier to maintain despite boss mechanics. With dragoon I rarely have to think "what should I move into next".

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Rocket surgery lol

Yea, I'm only i80 Drg, no Zenith, and am still usually on top of aggro list behind the tanks. All about that rotation.

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I found this, did a monk first and then a dragoon. Dragoon feels like the black mage of physical dps, dem big crits!

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Yea, I'm only i80 Drg, no Zenith, and am still usually on top of aggro list behind the tanks. All about that rotation.

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Because being on top of aggro list means top DPS amirite?

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Because being on top of aggro list means top DPS amirite?

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I haven't set a parser up to know for sure.. But within the group, if I do (and I do regularly) pull off the tank, then yes, I assume I'm a bad ass lol :cool:

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Originally Posted by Omagana

You can pretty much say the same for monk. It's mandatory positionals for optimal monk DPS as well, all of the monk combo moves lose potency if not done from the correct position.

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MNK don't have mandatory positionals though...they happen to be unable to hit flank or back they can still keep going with their rotation and keep GL up. They just do a little less damage, but still work

DRG...they can't hit the back, no Disembowel or Chaos Thrust. No flank...Heavy Thrust doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Critical hits are +50% damage. All attacks have a +/-5% variance applied for randomness.

Determination just adds more base damage than crit rating adds crit% worth of damage. Well, technically DTR both "adds" base damage and it aggregates with STR to multiply weapon damage.

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I'm fairly certain I saw +66% dmg more than once in the ingame combat log tho :/ and it always alternate with random values, still don't understand that.

But ok I see, thanks =) best would be to have multiple sets given X encounter and the group you're with then.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

MNK don't have mandatory positionals though...they happen to be unable to hit flank or back they can still keep going with their rotation and keep GL up. They just do a little less damage, but still work

DRG...they can't hit the back, no Disembowel or Chaos Thrust. No flank...Heavy Thrust doesn't work.

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Mandatory for achieving what? optimal dps? They both require access to rear and flank for that and in fact monk requires more frequent access.

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Originally Posted by Omagana

Mandatory for achieving what? optimal dps? They both require access to rear and flank for that and in fact monk requires more frequent access.

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Let me rephrase the "mandatory" part as missing a positional on a MNK doesn't impair your rotation, you just keep going - miss a positional on a DRG and your rotation is messed up big time. See how that is not even in the same boat?

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

So my friend has parsed using both ACT and FFXIV/LogRep2, and has noticed a large disparity between them, which he was vocally telling me about outside of the game. ACT will generally be on the conservative end of dps, so in the 200-300 range, while FFXIV and LogRep2 will be between 300-400. Has anyone else noticed this disparity? I just think it might confuse some people using ACT who think they should be hitting higher 300's, when really that comes from FFXIV/LogRep2 and higher 200's is the norm for ACT.

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My friend uses ACT and generally parses me in the 300-320 range for mostly static fights like Cadecous (been consistent the last few weeks). My friend's sister uses LogRep2 where I'm pulling closer to the 400 range same fight. No gear change. Mix and match of mythology gear with the few pieces of allagan that have dropped.

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Originally Posted by Omagana

Mandatory for achieving what? optimal dps? They both require access to rear and flank for that and in fact monk requires more frequent access.

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Monk is not mandatory in the sense that you can be off position and still complete your rotation and keep GL3 up. If a MNK makes a mistake and misses their positional, they can keep going.

DRG cannot do that; they MUST hit the positionals or they're stuck TTTing or mashing ID or HT til they can get it to work. DRG miss a positional, they have to try again, stopping their rotation entirely

Optimal is just that...optimal. EVERY job has an optimal rotation to maximize DPS.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Monk is not mandatory in the sense that you can be off position and still complete your rotation and keep GL3 up. If a MNK makes a mistake and misses their positional, they can keep going.

DRG cannot do that; they MUST hit the positionals or they're stuck TTTing or mashing ID or HT til they can get it to work. DRG miss a positional, they have to try again, stopping their rotation entirely

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People not recognizing this is precisely what I mean when I say a lot of people don't fully understand DRG.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

People not recognizing this is precisely what I mean when I say a lot of people don't fully understand DRG.

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I really feel it's willful ignorance, at this point. This game's been out awhile now but folks insist on clinging to their biases.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Monk is not mandatory in the sense that you can be off position and still complete your rotation and keep GL3 up. If a MNK makes a mistake and misses their positional, they can keep going.

DRG cannot do that; they MUST hit the positionals or they're stuck TTTing or mashing ID or HT til they can get it to work. DRG miss a positional, they have to try again, stopping their rotation entirely

Optimal is just that...optimal. EVERY job has an optimal rotation to maximize DPS.

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Originally Posted by Vodomir

Let me rephrase the "mandatory" part as missing a positional on a MNK doesn't impair your rotation, you just keep going - miss a positional on a DRG and your rotation is messed up big time. See how that is not even in the same boat?

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My apologies if I gave the impression I do not know this...but the question of "who's more gimped" without directional access was not in my original point. Likewise I never commented on who is more effected by losing access to rear or flank, I simply stated they both require the same directional access for full and proper rotation.

As for the ambiguity of using the term mandatory, I said it was mandatory for optimal DPS in both classes. Which is entirely true and as Vodomir says, it was not even my choice of word.

In most cases, I can still get quickly in and out of my two necessary positionals per 20/30 as DRG a bit more easily than I can keep up optimal dps on Monk with positions nearly blocked for extended times. Keep in mind that a ID combo, for instance, is only worth ~25% more potency than a Thrust combo in the first place. A monk will be losing more than that on almost every ability. If blocked at one opportunity, DRGs can try again 7.5 seconds later.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Keep in mind that a ID combo, for instance, is only worth ~25% more potency than a Thrust combo in the first place.

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IDC: 180 + 220 + 200 + 300 = 900 raw p
TTT: 150 + 200 + 330 = 680 raw p

IDC does 32% more raw potency than TTT.

The DE debuff is worth 11% for direct damage. Direct damage comprises ~88% of DRG damage output. Roughly 9.7% damage per second is lost, which equates to roughly 22 potency lost per second.

So every time you drop IDC and use TTT instead, you lose roughly 382 total potency.

This assumes you accurately predict/prep for the shift to TTT in place of IDC. If you misfired the Impulse Drive, you lose an additional 150 potency (250 average action potency per GCD minus a misfired 100p ID).

So mandatory loss of 382, penalty loss of 150.

TLDR: if the DRG misfires ID, they lose 150p. A MNK who misfires loses 40-50p.

If the DRG switches to TTT after misfiring, they lose 532p.

If a DRG switches without misfiring, they lose 382p.

MNKs lose 40-50p per misfire.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

So every time you drop IDC and use TTT instead, you lose roughly 382 total potency.

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I hate that we're posting such good information in such a silly thread, but on a related note: If I know a mob is going to die in 6 more GCD moves, and it's time to use IDC, is it more effective to do double TTT instead?

Basically it's a question of 3 ticks of IDC DOT (which I realize unfortunately depends on server time) vs up-front potency of just doing TTT instead.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

If I know a mob is going to die in 6 more GCD moves, and it's time to use IDC, is it more effective to do double TTT instead?

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Let's see ... we're talking about 6 GCDs of remaining time. Based on the context that you are deciding on IDC or TTT, then the prior DE and CT debuffs are going to fall off. Generally, this means they will last into the D and C of the option.

IDC TTT provides (180 + 220 + 200 + 150 + 200 + 330) * 1.11 = 1421p in direct damage, and roughly 7.5 seconds of CT DoT (at 30p per 3). Total, roughly 1496.

TTT TTT provides (150 + 200) * 1.11 + (330 + 150 + 200 + 330) = 1399.

Yeah, the direct damage of the IDC chain alone is 600p. TTT is 680. You get 60-90p from the CT DoT. That basically makes up the raw potency difference. The IDC refresh picks up a bonus DE debuff over ~4 GCDs, and that puts it ahead of TTTTTT.

IDC TTT > TTT TTT.

Edit: Did not take into account AAs. AAs are 100p per 3s. That 10s of DE debuff is ~36.7p of AAs -- so even more in favor of IDC TTT.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

knowledge

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Sweet, one less thing I have to worry about, just keep bangin' away the rotation. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

I dunno, DRG has a 31-32 move rotation (that's counting oGCDs, and there is a best way to use them), with absolutely mandatory positionals, for optimal DPS.

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Positionals are absolutely mandatory on Monk as well for optimal DPS. Yes, Monk you don't miss out on debuffs/buffs if you miss a positional. However in DRG, you only need to do a positional correctly twice out of your entire rotation where every regular rotation ability MNK does aside from Touch of Death it is mandatory for optimal DPS you are in proper positioning. Neither are difficult, I play both classes regularly and don't feel either is more difficult/demanding than the other.

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

Positionals are absolutely mandatory on Monk as well for optimal DPS.

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It has been explained repeatedly that DRG positionals are not only mandatory for optimal DPS, but for rotation whatsoever. The combo does not even work if we don't get the positional off; it is a harsher penalty in regard to positioning. That's all I, or anyone else, was saying

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

you only need to do a positional correctly twice out of your entire rotation

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Assuming that you mean the same thing that I mean, and that the rotation is 32 moves, there are 5 positionals.

I believe I also said that I don't think either is harder than the other. My message was that people who think MNK is harder simply don't understand what it means to play DRG well. They're equally challenging.

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

Neither are difficult

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They're certainly more complex, rotation-wise, than the proc masher jobs. Whether that's more/less difficult, depends on the user, I guess.

For example, most mistakes I make while using BLM are directly related to me laughing over Mumble about how easy the job is.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

It has been explained repeatedly that DRG positionals are not only mandatory for optimal DPS, but for rotation whatsoever. The combo does not even work if we don't get the positional off; it is a harsher penalty in regard to positioning.

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No one said otherwise (unless I've missed a post).

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

Assuming that you mean the same thing that I mean, and that the rotation is 32 moves, there are 5 positionals.

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He's saying dragoon has two positional abilities, monk has six. Every monk combo ability is positional.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

I believe I also said that I don't think either is harder than the other. My message was that people who think MNK is harder simply don't understand what it means to play DRG well. They're equally challenging.

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Now this is where opinion comes in. I play both, i85 and i82 (neither main). I find dragoon easier to play well in most fights, personally.

I hear your numbers and facts, but here's my personal anecdotes as rebuttal.

You can't tell me what to do, you're not my real dad!

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

I hear your numbers and facts, but here's my personal anecdotes as rebuttal.

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http://www-deadline-com.vimg.net/wp-...1216180223.jpg

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