DRG is unbalanced and desperately needs a buff.

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Originally Posted by Altena

BRD is hit or miss, some of their damage (like BLM) does rely on chance. However fight depending - BRD can easily top a DRG if they don't have to worry about songs.

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This is not true at all, a BRD cannot top a good dragon, NEVER! With the same equipment one dragon should be doing at least 60 - 70 more dps than a Bard (this is the Bard didn't play a song for much time)
Are some fights that we can have more dps due to the mobility but this do not apply for Coil.

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Originally Posted by Hanemakikaze

Pretty sure most if not everyone disagreeing with you are just people refuting your over exageration on how weak/strong drg is, which you are.

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This post is about the combined balance of DPS + Utility.
The gap between flat DPS may not be absolutely between a BRD and DRG, however the part that makes it unbalanced is BRD's large arsenal of utility. They are guarenteed a spot in any party simply because of their songs. They are also preferred DPS as they don't have to put themselves in high risk situations as often as a melee DPS.
The gap between DRG and MNK however is huge. This is not an exageration. The numbers in my previous post alone show this. If I were to do the true flank rotation (this isn't even optimal), my undergeared MNK would be parsing similar numbers to my near-full i90 DRG.

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Just because another class does what they do well doesn't make them unbalanced,

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Wait ... what?

Read that sentence again... Here let me re-word it for you to make it clearer to what this sounds like:
"Just because another DPS class is a better DPS then another, doesn't make them unbalanced."

Sorry but yes, it does. Why would anyone choose sub-optimal over optimal? Not only this, all current DPS offer more utility then DRG.

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like I said before with black mage their damage & utility has always been that way even since FFXI this is just what they are high damage glass cannons with plenty of utility to compensate being so fragile(which I might add dragoons are not), in fact they are far more balanced in 2.0 than any other version(XI, XIV 1.0) as you no longer see people just stacking blms for almost literally everything.

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To begin with, FFXIV isn't FFXI.
In addition to this, how does "BLM has always been strong, so it should stay strong." make any sense?
Their crowd control is absolutely superior to all other DPS classes. That alone is a reason to bring one along.
On top of this they have the highest AoE damage, the 2nd highest single target damage, and they do all of this out of harm's way - at range.

The balance between weaker physical defense, is quite simply that they don't have to be close to anything that hits them for physical damage.
If they do? Then they have Manawall (which is far superior to DRG's Keen Flurry equivalent), but Manawall isn't enough? Then BLM has Manaward which is effectively 30% HP boost when they are taking magic damage. The closest equivalent to that is Foresight - which on my PLD (which has much higher defense then DRG) equals to about a 7% damage taken reduction. On DRG? This equates to diddly squat.

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Dragoon needs tweaks sure, but no they aren't weak, when I see one at the bottom of the dps parse in any given fight then maybe, just maybe I'll believe that.

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You need to parse more, or play with DRG's that are actually equally geared and not overgeared in comparison.

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But from where I see it, bard is usually the lowest out of any given geared party, but their mobility/songs make up for that. The only class that has an extreme balance skew is warrior at this moment, dragoon needs tweaks but it's not even close to the point where warrior currently is where you absolutely just can't take one in and end up struggling if you do when compared to paladin, in coil anyway.

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Not sure where you got those numbers from but even facerolling trashy bosses in Praetorium - any scrub BRD that knows how to use their skills pushes higher then DRGs of equal gear.

As for Warrior, it works as an off-tank, while I agree doesn't really work as a MT most of the time. It is in a weird place at the moment - and is getting a buff to compensate for it. However DRG is in the same boat. It has lackluster DPS and next to no utility (aside from buffing BRD damage.. lol).

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Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

This is not true at all, a BRD cannot top a good dragon, NEVER! With the same equipment one dragon should be doing at least 60 - 70 more dps than a Bard (this is the Bard didn't play a song for much time)
Are some fights that we can have more dps due to the mobility but this do not apply for Coil.

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70 DPS difference? You are serious right now? You play FFXIV right?

A DRG of equal gear to a BRD cannot push 70 DPS higher. lol.

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Originally Posted by Hanemakikaze

Pretty sure most if not everyone disagreeing with you are just people refuting your over exageration on how weak/strong drg is, which you are. Just because another class does what they do well doesn't make them unbalanced, like I said before with black mage their damage & utility has always been that way even since FFXI this is just what they are high damage glass cannons with plenty of utility to compensate being so fragile(which I might add dragoons are not), in fact they are far more balanced in 2.0 than any other version(XI, XIV 1.0) as you no longer see people just stacking blms for almost literally everything.

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That glass cannon argument is not valid. BLMs have the highest magical defense of all dps while dragoons have the lowest. Now what happens more often, a dps tanking for physical damage or a dps eating an AOE for magical damage? Not even considering that BLMs aren't even in range to get hit by physical damage.

Not going into the argument wether dragoons are weak or not but just wanted to point that out, BLMs are not more of a glass cannon than any other dps. Its just trade offs:

BLM/SMN: high mag def / low phy def
MNK/BRD: med mag def / med phy def
DRG: low mag def / high phy def

I think the issue is about 4 feet behind the keyboard.

Dragoons would be a great class if it didn't attract the sour cream of the budwig cream that are dps'ers. I remember seeing a screenshot of a group of 8, where 3 members were dead in the first minute.

Guess which class were all 3 of those players?

TLDR : Less stupid people playing dragoons = better dragoons!

Can Dragoons complete the content? Yes? Okay then, that should be all that freaking matters -_-

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Originally Posted by Altena

70 DPS difference? You are serious right now? You play FFXIV right?

A DRG of equal gear to a BRD cannot push 70 DPS higher. lol.

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Emmm yes they can the dragon on my coil group is doing about 260 dps and I am doing 200 I don't know if this are good numbers for me but I compared it with other bards on my FC and all we are doing around the same 200 - 210 so the answer is yes. The dragoon can and MUST be doing more damage than a BRD if not maybe is wrong at one point of his rotation.

DRG on my server has his Allagan Spear.

Can't be too shabby.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

That glass cannon argument is not valid. BLMs have the highest magical defense of all dps while dragoons have the lowest. Now what happens more often, a dps tanking for physical damage or a dps eating an AOE for magical damage? Not even considering that BLMs aren't even in range to get hit by physical damage.

Not going into the argument wether dragoons are weak or not but just wanted to point that out, BLMs are not more of a glass cannon than any other dps. Its just trade offs:

BLM/SMN: high mag def / low phy def
MNK/BRD: med mag def / med phy def
DRG: low mag def / high phy def

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You make a valid point, but Black Mage wear cloth armor and have a smaller health pool, not sure what the ADS beam is but I've seen the mages in my group get one shot by that where as me on monk or dragoon can at the very least survive it. To me, that is very glass cannon, whether they are able to avoid the damage or not doesn't change the fact that if they do get hit, they're dead.

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Originally Posted by Altena

rada rada rada

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For starters, whether it's FFXI or FFXIV doesn't matter, SE has established the black mages role in parties and it's pretty much set in stone. Everything you just said about them is who they are and how it's always been, that's not going to change and I don't think it should. Sure, in a perfect world a mage doesn't get hit but that world doesn't exist. People screw up, if a black mage pulls agro, or gets agro from adds there's a 90% chance they are going to die in coil, hell, if they get hit by a stray beam from one of the ads bosses they are dead.

My point is though, a squishy will always be a squishy no self buffs are going to stop that. As for the whole class doing their role well doesn't make them unbalanced, what you think it sounds like I'm saying is completely off. When I see that the majority of the classes in this game do their role well, I think that's absolutely balanced. When a class can't perform above average no matter what the circomstances, be it player skill, gear, etc. THAT is what I consider unbalanced, and as I stated before only warrior fits the bill. Dragoon is weaker than Monk & Black Mage, but put is can indeed pull its weight in a party and perform above average. And like I said, it does need tweaks but I do not find them as weak and you're making them out to be.

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Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

Emmm yes they can the dragon on my coil group is doing about 260 dps and I am doing 200 I don't know if this are good numbers for me but I compared it with other bards on my FC and all we are doing around the same 200 - 210 so the answer is yes. The dragoon can and MUST be doing more damage than a BRD if not maybe is wrong at one point of his rotation.

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As a BRD, 200 DPS is fairly low, even for pre-i90 gear to be truthfully honest.

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Originally Posted by Paper

Rock is fine, Scissors needs a serious nerf.

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10charrrrrr

Drgs get more drops in Turn 1 than anybody else

yes.. YEESSSSS... (insert evil laugh) BUFF ME, BUFF ME ALOT!!! i agree with OP 100 and 29.823499%. she makes a great point. SE should hire u. i thank you on behalf of all the dragoons of eorzea.

Too many bad DRG in this thread. Even though DRG is a bit underpowered compared to other DPS, it's not that bad.

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Originally Posted by Hanemakikaze

You make a valid point, but Black Mage wear cloth armor and have a smaller health pool, not sure what the ADS beam is but I've seen the mages in my group get one shot by that where as me on monk or dragoon can at the very least survive it. To me, that is very glass cannon, whether they are able to avoid the damage or not doesn't change the fact that if they do get hit, they're dead.

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A piercing laser will practically 1-shot anyone aside from a tank. On top of this, melee have to watch for conal swipes/auto attacks, repelling cannons, firestream is much harder to dodge when you are within melee range, pacman (water type move that fans out with a wedge out of it.. idk the name) has a max range, and ranged DPS should be beyond that max range to begin with. So yeah don't even get me started on the risks of playing as a melee in T2. It is far less risky to stand at a range and pew pew with a bow or fire.

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For starters, whether it's FFXI or FFXIV doesn't matter, SE has established the black mages role in parties and it's pretty much set in stone.

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Wait so, Warrior in FFXI was used primarily as a DD - so that means they are a DD in this game? On that logic, my previous statement would be true. However it is not.

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Everything you just said about them is who they are and how it's always been, that's not going to change and I don't think it should.

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What "should" change is the balance. Sure they can have burst or AoE damage, and offer superior utility/CC. However there needs to be a balance of this. They can maintain this bursty DPS / utility role, as long as DRG excels in something that BLM does not, and currently that is not the case. As a DPS class you have one major role - and that is to do DPS. Some are also required to offer utility. From your posts you basically just admitted that BLM is "overpowered" which really it isn't, but DRG is underpowered. Much like PLD vs WAR.. PLD isn't overpowered - but WAR is definitely underpowered.

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Sure, in a perfect world a mage doesn't get hit but that world doesn't exist.

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How is this an argument for or against a mage? The point is there are varying degrees of risk. There are a lot more mechanics that will kill a melee then there are those that will kill a BLM. Everything a BLM has to dodge - so does a melee. So I don't really see your argument there. The advantage of ranged class - is they don't have to dodge close proximity attacks from the main boss. The disadvantage comes in the form of less HP.

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People screw up, if a black mage pulls agro, or gets agro from adds there's a 90% chance they are going to die in coil, hell, if they get hit by a stray beam from one of the ads bosses they are dead.

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BLM pulls agro in this game? Wait, any class pulls agro? Unless you are talking about zerging AoE trash somewhere like Turn 4, it's highly unlikely they will be pulling hate on a single target. Even in Turn 4 - 1 or 2 adds won't kill you, if you have competent healers. I don't really get your point here... Everything a range class has to worry about - a melee has to as well, and more.

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My point is though, a squishy will always be a squishy no self buffs are going to stop that.

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Yes, and as stated multiple times - the squishy is weighed up against the fact that they are ranged.

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As for the whole class doing their role well doesn't make them unbalanced, what you think it sounds like I'm saying is completely off. When I see that the majority of the classes in this game do their role well, I think that's absolutely balanced. When a class can't perform above average no matter what the circomstances, be it player skill, gear, etc. THAT is what I consider unbalanced, and as I stated before only warrior fits the bill. Dragoon is weaker than Monk & Black Mage, but put is can indeed pull its weight in a party and perform above average. And like I said, it does need tweaks but I do not find them as weak and you're making them out to be.

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You obviously don't seem to understand.

A DRG has "low" DPS when compared to other classes, of equal gear, and equal skill.
It has the lowest form of utility for a DPS class.
It is melee.
These 3 things indicate that it "does not fill its role well".

Inferior DPS & little utility, at a high risk range..
Sounds like it is totally balanced... /facepalm.

What more needs to truly be said?

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Originally Posted by Altena

As a BRD, 200 DPS is fairly low, even for pre-i90 gear to be truthfully honest.

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Emm no, is a good dmg in Coil. Other example: I parse around 230 in king Tom berry when this dragon parse around 280 or more

DRG is underpowered just as WAR is.

Thing here is, DRG needs to get buffed, base stat wise, stats on the gear it gets such as darklight, etc,etc, mechanic wise (cooldown of skills, jumps, animations,) cross skill wise, utility wise.


YOU DO NOT nerf a existing class that is working as intended such as BRD. You do this Toshida, you will only be pissing the BRD population. Buffing underpowered classes is already kind of a nerf to other classes, so do not touch classes that are working "ok".

If the game was designed a bit differently, Dragoon's offtanking would be very useful. Drg's can wear some very good defense armor, have slow and stun, technically Keen Flurry is a defense buff, and most importantly, when offtanking is no longer needed they have the threat drop move. Levels 30-40 it was pretty common in my groups for the tank to die and for me to hold a boss long enough for the tank to be rezzed and provoked. Unfortunately, we already have 2+ tanks in any major dungeon, so good groups won't ever use this.

Dragoons will die the most often in a party because of low mdef, blood for blood being up, and being a melee with animation locked jumps. At least invigorate makes it easier to recover from raise.

I wish that Jump was a GCD move that we could use freely as a distance closer, backjump too with a much lower cooldown to make us the most manueveral dps.

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Originally Posted by Haoma

Monk got boned is what it got, not special treatment. While a good monk with good gear can put out high numbers over time, monk is still just a purely sustained damage class. It can't burst effectively at all. In short fights, or fights where the monk can't stay glued to the mob, the dragoon will always outdo the monk (assuming equal skill and similar gearing). If you ask me: melee DPS needs to be reworked as a whole and ranged burst/ dps classes need to be taken down a peg. Maybe implement little things, like forcing bards to stay still for their more powerful attacks, adding distance penalties and the like. Nerf black mage's refresh rates a little...something. Jobs are far from anything close to balanced at the moment.

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I always give a litle smile when I have a Monk, they usually bring a ton of DPS

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Originally Posted by Kletian

If the game was designed a bit differently, Dragoon's offtanking would be very useful. Drg's can wear some very good defense armor, have slow and stun, technically Keen Flurry is a defense buff, and most importantly, when offtanking is no longer needed they have the threat drop move. Levels 30-40 it was pretty common in my groups for the tank to die and for me to hold a boss long enough for the tank to be rezzed and provoked. Unfortunately, we already have 2+ tanks in any major dungeon, so good groups won't ever use this.

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MNK has FoE which trumps this. (Passive 10% less damage taken).
Along with Second Wind, (and Mantra which is highly useful).


I do agree that in extremely rare cases they can sort of hold their ground, but holding hate off other DPS is another issue entirely.
If they were indeed to buff DRG's ability to offtank weaker adds (like the Wyverns in T5), which sure they can do - MNK still do a better job... And hold hate much easier.

There is a a video of a group solo tanking T5 and they use this method (although I am pretty sure they use a MNK).

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Dragoons will die the most often in a party because of low mdef, blood for blood being up, and being a melee with animation locked jumps. At least invigorate makes it easier to recover from raise.

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This is exactly right. Although this honestly comes down to being smart about when you use B4B. MNK and BRD both get B4B though..

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I wish that Jump was a GCD move that we could use freely as a distance closer, backjump too with a much lower cooldown to make us the most manueveral dps.

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This could work too. However don't forget that MNK and BLM both have gap closers, and BRD has a pushback (Repelling Shot)... So really it isn't that "special".
BLM's is actually extremely useful, especially with the low cooldown. You can practically pick anywhere on the map and go there without problems (provided there is someone there to hook onto).

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Originally Posted by Altena

You're talking about random pugs doing spammy dungeons?

Try Coil, or even a primal with a group of people all equally geared.

MNK and BLM are the clear leaders. Hell - get your closest MNK or BLM buddy to run over to a striking dummy with you, strip naked aside from your weapon and see who does more damage over 5 mins.

BRD is hit or miss, some of their damage (like BLM) does rely on chance. However fight depending - BRD can easily top a DRG if they don't have to worry about songs. The biggest issue here is that BRD has both the damage & the utility.. Where DRG can do nothing but DPS. The margin should be much clearer in DRG's favour, simply because of BRD's ability to support the party - and deal their damage at a safe range. Really all melee DPS should do more damage then ranged for this reason alone, but adding the amount of utility both BRD and BLM have, it really just isn't balanced at all.

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im talking coil with equally geared players only time i lost in dps was in turn 4 due to the aoe but besides that im always top even on titan with ppl equally geared

OP i agree with your statement on the part with the jumps, to be honest the jump skills given for DRG is not as great as anyone thinks. The worst is the dragondive with 3 minutes cooldown is a very big letdown.

And of course casting animation of each jump is taking too long and causing us lots of difficulties in avoiding enemy's AOE. A vast improvement to all Jump skills is needed.

Cross class skills, this one I have to disagree that giving the MRD cross class skills is a big disadvantage. In fact I am glad to have some of MRD cross class skills despite I know my job is to deliver the best dps as possible. MRD skills are important for Melee's survival and with Foresight/Bloodbath, our survivalbility increases.

I actually wanted Bard's dmg boost skills as well but probably I will try that if I obtain the Allagan spear and try running for Lancer class instead of DRG XD. Gonna give this a test.

Additionally, for top DPS class, i feel MNK are less tanky, depends a lot on positioning and one miss combo could really result with a heavy loss of dps, BLM has lowest survivalability and risk of interrupts but gives a huge amount of dmg, DRG are strong in survival, and only needs ID/HT to hit for position and able to cast skills while moving around the target. DRG may lose in terms of damage, but there is also its advantages :)

i like how all my jump skills can potentially 1 shot me since i cant move out of aoe when casted :D

groups can clear twintania with a dragoon in the group, how bad can it possibly be?

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

something good, some not
-i don't feel their dps is so low actually. If you mean "i'm not the dps leader well, not everyone can be top. don't mean they suck

-they have a good spike damage for a melee dd :/ a critted full thrust surpass 1k damage. Only blm can do better

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OP made some interesting points like the uselessness of the jump skills, but i'll have to agree with these
usually it's bard or BLM who are on top of dps parse, but DRG is not that bad
about spike damage, my FT can deal 1k damage and i've never seen any other job than BLM can do that

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Originally Posted by MagoArcano

YOU DO NOT nerf a existing class that is working as intended such as BRD. You do this Toshida, you will only be pissing the BRD population. Buffing underpowered classes is already kind of a nerf to other classes, so do not touch classes that are working "ok".

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Wrong. As much as I like Yoshi for how he has turned the game around, he made a mistake by admitting his love for black mage. As a extension of that, black mage will never be out dpsed and any class in danger of coming close will be nerfed to preserve the bias. Bard will be nerfed and via extension melee dps will be slightly buffed to stop the crying. This is standard faire class adjustment techniques for eastern mmos. Melee dps classes will never reach ranged class potential or utility in eastern developed mmos.

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Originally Posted by Akira

im talking coil with equally geared players only time i lost in dps was in turn 4 due to the aoe but besides that im always top even on titan with ppl equally geared

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Any monk with you? I kinda doubt it tbh, because a decent MNK dishes out more damage than a DRG on any boss class fights. I rarely have to push myself to pass a DRG as MNK, unless they have better gear (in that case, I lose, obviously).

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Originally Posted by SilverRhythm

OP i agree with your statement on the part with the jumps, to be honest the jump skills given for DRG is not as great as anyone thinks. The worst is the dragondive with 3 minutes cooldown is a very big letdown.

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The award of "worst jump" goes to Elusive Jump for me, since, well, IT'S NOT FRIKKING ELUDING ANYTHING most of the time. I can't count how many times I died to it <.<

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Originally Posted by Koroem

Wrong. As much as I like Yoshi for how he has turned the game around, he made a mistake by admitting his love for black mage. As a extension of that, black mage will never be out dpsed and any class in danger of coming close will be nerfed to preserve the bias. Bard will be nerfed and via extension melee dps will be slightly buffed to stop the crying. This is standard faire class adjustment techniques for eastern mmos. Melee dps classes will never reach ranged class potential or utility in eastern developed mmos.

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A class will always be on the top, you can't level match all of them in all situations, that's a fact. The only bad thing is when a class is noticeably worse than the rest of their role, see current Warrior and 1.0's monk before fixes.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

A class will always be on the top, you can't level match all of them in all situations, that's a fact. The only bad thing is when a class is noticeably worse than the rest of their role, see current Warrior and 1.0's monk before fixes.

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I agree completely and it isn't my intention to argue against that. My point was that with Yoshi admitting his favorite was black mage, the class balance will forever be skewed in its favor whether he directly has control over tweaks or not. Other classes will be secondary concerns and only small adjustments will be made to quell complaints as long as possible. Heavy handed buffs typically only favor ranged classes in eastern mmos. Developers always drag their feet when it comes to fixing subpar classes. Always.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

The award of "worst jump" goes to Elusive Jump for me, since, well, IT'S NOT FRIKKING ELUDING ANYTHING most of the time. I can't count how many times I died to it <.<

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Oddly enough I use it for the opposite of its intention. I use it as a gap closer when Spineshatter is down... heh

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Originally Posted by Akira

im talking coil with equally geared players only time i lost in dps was in turn 4 due to the aoe but besides that im always top even on titan with ppl equally geared

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TBH I have given up even talking about DPS in this thread as apparently there are full DL DRGs out there that are parsing more then me, using the exact same rotation.. Hah.

If you are honestly outparsing your BRDs and BLMs in coil, namingly T2 and T5 specifically (T1 I can understand if your ranged DPS are pulling slimes all fight), then your BRDs and BLMs must be really slacking.. or have less gear.
I will also write off that you probably do not have a MNK with you, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt for that one.

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Originally Posted by Koroem

I agree completely and it isn't my intention to argue against that. My point was that with Yoshi admitting his favorite was black mage, the class balance will forever be skewed in its favor whether he directly has control over tweaks or not. Other classes will be secondary concerns and only small adjustments will be made to quell complaints as long as possible. Heavy handed buffs typically only favor ranged classes in eastern mmos. Developers always drag their feet when it comes to fixing subpar classes. Always.

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So because the developer says he like to play a specific class that mean they'll be the top of the top forever ? That's wrong on so many levels...first and foremost, because blm hardly have the top dps right now. They do best dps when the word is "AoE all the things", and this apply in WP (and who cares about it) and coil turn 4. In every other encounter never a blm surpassed a competent melee

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Originally Posted by Altena

Oddly enough I use it for the opposite of its intention. I use it as a gap closer when Spineshatter is down... heh



TBH I have given up even talking about DPS in this thread as apparently there are full DL DRGs out there that are parsing more then me, using the exact same rotation.. Hah.

If you are honestly outparsing your BRDs and BLMs in coil, namingly T2 and T5 specifically (T1 I can understand if your ranged DPS are pulling slimes all fight), then your BRDs and BLMs must be really slacking.. or have less gear.
I will also write off that you probably do not have a MNK with you, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt for that one.

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ive had monks with me before equally geared as i said ove only lost to blm in aoe but on single target i out dps them not saying by much like maybe 3-9 dps but still

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Originally Posted by yukikaze_yanagi

So because the developer says he like to play a specific class that mean they'll be the top of the top forever ? That's wrong on so many levels...first and foremost, because blm hardly have the top dps right now. They do best dps when the word is "AoE all the things", and this apply in WP (and who cares about it) and coil turn 4. In every other encounter never a blm surpassed a competent melee

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Top of the top? Not exactly. It means the dps will never be sub par, and it means its utility will never be in question. It will forever be a class that never falls out of favor, and becomes the first or second favored class for almost every encounter, where other classes can be situational. I will say SE has done a better job minimizing this well known issue (it mainly dominates Korean mmos). Until proven otherwise my hopes are not high that melee dps classes will get the real balance they deserve in this range must be king genre of game. The amount of effort a melee needs to put forth is seriously out of balance with its ranged competition.

-Speed up jump animations/lower CD's on jumps.
-Give us back access to the archer skill tree (you can take back either PGL or MRD take your pick)
-Give us 1 or 2 more off GCD DD skills so were not stuck looking stupid after all of our jumps are on cd. Mercy stroke is nice but it has a 90 sec cd/ while only being able to do when the enemy health is 20%.

Then i'll be happy.

Edit:
Also i hate when folks point out the fact that "oh my FT hits 1k!! were doing just fine in DPS!". Its not like we're hitting 1K hits on the regular without any buffs. Yea you barely hit that 1K mark after having to go though all that trouble getting every dmg buff and debuff up. If B4B actually lasted longer and a lower cd (for goons) . This wouldn't be a problem.

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Originally Posted by Koroem

Heavy handed buffs typically only favor ranged classes in eastern mmos.

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Once upon a time Rangers were as gods in FFXI. Then they were balanced and many tears were shed.

Even Black Mages, who for a long time were the most sought out class for endgame and experience parties, started being outclassed by melee characters in many HNMs after the melees finally started getting buffed (and HNMs started gimping BLMs).

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Originally Posted by Akira

ive had monks with me before equally geared as i said ove only lost to blm in aoe but on single target i out dps them not saying by much like maybe 3-9 dps but still

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Those monks have to work harder then, I played with a DRG just now who had similar equip as you. We were testing who would manage to get hate off the (slightly undergeared, compared to us) tank and I was the one winning most of the time (10 vs 1).
So yeah.

(oh and before you scream "bad dps!", the tank knew we were trying to do it :P)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altena

- They have poor spike damage (most of their damage comes from DoT).

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This, to me, completely undermines everything else you've said. It's totally incorrect. Mathematically, logically, it's just wrong in every way.

DRG DoTs:
Chaos Thrust = 160 potency for hit + 200 DoT potency (over 30 seconds)
Phlebotomize = 170 potency for hit + 120 DoT potency (over 18 seconds)
Fracture (actually a WAR skill) = 100 potency for hit + 120 DoT potency (over 18 seconds)

That's a total potency of 870 (if the DoTs run their full duration and are done in combos). But that's not really accurate, since 430 of that potency is done as soon as you hit the mob. 440 potency comes from DoTs.

DRG True Thrust combo:
True Thrust = 150 potency
Vorpal Thrust = 200 potency
Full Thrust = 300 potency

DRG Heavy Thrust combo:
Heavy Thrust = 170
Ring of Thorns = 150 potency

DRG Impulse Drive combo:
Impulse Drive = 180 potency
Disembowel = 220 potency

That's 1270 potency right there. None of those are DoTs.

And that doesn't include Dragonfire Dive (250 potency), Jump (200 potency), Spineshatter Dive (170 potency), Doom Spike (160 potency), Leg Sweep (130 potency), or Feint (120 potency).

If you're getting most of your damage from DoTs, then you're not playing your class very well. In fact, I can't even figure out how you could possibly be getting most of your DPS from DoTs. It's just not possible unless you're playing DRG incredibly poorly.

DRG was designed(stated by yoshi-P) to be easier to play than other classes. It's intended to be weaker because it's a class for lesser skilled players. What's weird, though is how much damage BLM does. They need to reduce BLM's damage if that is truely the reason for DRG doing less damage, because BLM is much easier than DRG. SMN as well, SMN is probably one of the least interesting DPS I've ever played in a video game.

But monk is super horrible aswell. The sound effects just horribly lack of punch and most of the animations are just terrible, so for those who like to play melee dps ? ...

Anyway Drag is fine. Just stack that crit rating.

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Originally Posted by AesirTyr

yada yada

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BLM's Fire has potency of 150.
Under Astral Fire 3, the damage is multiplied by about 1.5...
So a Fire 1 that does 300 damage now does about 550-600 non crit, no buffs.
An unbuffed full thrust does about 550. Vorpal does about 400, and True does about 300. (Gear depending of course).
So after that initial Fire cast, BLM is doing on average 300-400 more damage per 3x casts then a DRG. (This is also based on a BLM with worse gear then the DRG)
In addition to this, you have a 40% chance that you will proc a Firestarter which has a potency of 220 + the damage bonus from Astral Fire. (Which does about 800 non-crit, about 250-300 more damage then an unbuffed FT).


I didn't compare raw potency simply because I have NFI what the equation is for Astral Fire, I am simply eyeballing numbers. However please keep in mind these numbers are based off a near-full i90 DRG with 476 STR, vs a gimpy relic/AK BLM with only 402 INT.

If FT crits, unbuffed you will get around 750.... If Fire crits, you will get around 1k. If Fire 3 crits, you will be hitting for 1300. This is true Spike damage. Therfore as I said earlier - DRG's spike is low in comparison.

Chaos Thrust isn't really "spike" as the damage is over 30 seconds. As an example - trashy mobs in a dungeon generally don't last the full duration of CT.

Thorns is only worth it if used in combo, and there are more then 2 mobs. After using it once, you might as well be spamming doomspike anyway. While their AoE isn't terrible (and I never said it was), it certainly isn't the best either. Especially when resources are being considered. Turn 4 coil is a great example of this.

DoT's are actually DRG's highest potency combos. While you may not be able to spam them due to their nature - they have the highest potency for the amount of steps. You said it is wrong to be doing most of DRG's damage in DoT's, while I agree with that, I only agree with that due to their nature (being unable to spam them), however they are still the strongest skills you can do in the same amount of steps/GCD's.
Example:
180 + 220 + 360 = 760 (Chaos combo, 3-step)
vs.
150 + 200 + 300 = 650 (FT Combo, 3 step)

So simply comparing the 2, the highest potency you can achieve in 3-steps is due to a DoT.
In addition to this, Phleb has a potency of 290 and is not combo'd. The only comparison to this is a power surge > Jump, and you can do that even less then Phleb.
While the damage is immediate, the CD on a PS>Jump is 90 secs.

So sorry to say, but DoT's are actually DRG's strongest skills. While they may not be spammable like FT, and on a parser it is not their "primary source of damage" due to the nature of a DoT, and the sheer number of immediate damage skills, the potency is much higher per combo/step then a raw damage skill. Therefore DRG's true strength does indeed come from DoT. I am not saying "the majority of my damage comes from DoT". I am simply saying that "the strongest potency per step comes from a DoT, therefore they have better sustained damage then they have spike damage". Even when their sustained damage isn't that crash hot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

DRG was designed(stated by yoshi-P) to be easier to play than other classes. It's intended to be weaker because it's a class for lesser skilled players. What's weird, though is how much damage BLM does. They need to reduce BLM's damage if that is truely the reason for DRG doing less damage, because BLM is much easier than DRG. SMN as well, SMN is probably one of the least interesting DPS I've ever played in a video game.

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I don't think DRG is "easier" then any DPS really.. I am not saying it's "the hardest" either though.
I just think that it is more penalizing if you do stuff up, as your DPS simply plummets.
MNK is actually a lot more simple then people make it out to be.. While people can argue with me on this one - simply using a flank only rotation pushes you ahead of practically any other DPS in the party. I barely ever play MNK, yet can get close to matching my DRG in DPS even though my DRG's gear is substantially better.

I don't agree that BLM should be nerfed, nor should SMN though. DRG just needs to be comparable.

I'm wondering what the point of all this is...

SE is buffing DRG.

DRG has never been a utility Job.

Preaching to chior when it comes to saying a job that's slated for a buff needs buffing.

What sort of utility are you requesting they add?