The arrogance of some people

Back in school there was always one kid picked last for group sports. That kid grew up to be the healer that doesn't dps.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

I can't speak for everyone, but if I'm saving mana for later heals then its for good reason.

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This is a valid reason to not DPS in some situations, but I think no one here is talking about these situations, we are talking about when the healer have room to DPS and mana to spare. I think this is a matter of controling your mana pool too, if you can end the fight with 5% of mana but contributed with raid DPS, it's better than finish the raid with 50% mana left unused.

If we are gonna be picky, then one can say that he will not DPS, because he may die to avoidable AoE while casting stone III... that's not the point.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

then that dps is lazy for not using their ability to heal when its available to them.

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Hmm no. A DPS is losing time casting a healing spell, losing precious raid DPS that can turn into a wipe. A healer casting DPS skills while keeping everyone alive is actively contributing to the party. It's not equivalent. If you are talking about a SMN using rez, then I can agree, because it's saving healer's mana and helping the overall raid DPS.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

I don't even

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Ugh... So like, for those who actually like his comments, state in your own words exactly what he said, because it sounds like, and I'll make it easier for you to understand:

1: Healer has heals and dps skills
2: Use both, taking advantage of both sets of skills
3: Make it easier for dps by using your dps skills as well
4: Making the choice to dps makes things easier (For others: like i said)

Keep my words intact before referencing me. If its making things easier for others, what makes it just as easy for the healer, in turn making it harder later for everyone else? As if making a choice never shared consequences. The easy way can have worse results for you, and the hard way can have less for others. DPS choose to dps instead of healing, are they making it harder for healers? That's what your saying basically.

And yes, I gave you an example before, unless that doesn't make sense to you again, in which I give up on that because you fail each time twisting others words to state a point I don't believe yourself to understand. I also don't think you understand how healers work and their mindset. I recommend actually leveling one, it might help you understand a bit better.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Ugh... So like, for those who actually like his comments, state in your own words exactly what he said, because it sounds like, and I'll make it easier for you to understand

1: Healer has heals and dps skills
2: Use both, taking advantage of both sets of skills
3: Make it easier for dps by using your dps skills as well
4: Making the choice to dps makes things easier (For others: like i said)

Keep my words intact before referencing me. If its making things easier for others, what makes it just as easy for the healer, in turn making it harder later for everyone else? As if making a choice never shared consequences. The easy way can have worse results for you, and the hard way can have less for others. DPS choose to dps instead of healing, are they making it harder for healers? That's what your saying basically.

And yes, I gave you an example before, unless that doesn't make sense to you again, in which I give up on that because you fail each time twisting others words to state a point I don't believe yourself to understand. I also don't think you understand how healers work and their mindset. I recommend actually leveling one, it might help you understand a bit better.

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I'm having a hard time understanding this post. What is your question to us?

PS: We made our goal of 100 pages. I believe our work is done?

TLDR of thread:

• everyone is selfish
• healers who don't DPS think other people are arrogant and/or bad
• other people think healers who don't DPS are arrogant and/or bad
• healers that DPS make runs faster
• making runs faster makes some people sad
• some people don't like to DPS because other people suck at DPS

THIS IS STILL GOING ON? omfg

I'll do my best to summarize AGAIN.

1. Your job is to clear the instance
2. Using your whole toolkit will make this more efficient
3. Healers have DPS in their toolkit
Therefore: Healers DPSing makes clearing the instance more efficient.
Disclaimers
1. Your priority is to heal, so only DPS if your first job is covered. Definition: Covered - don't let the tank die.
2. Some people choose not to DPS when they could. They are bads. They have the right to choose to be bads.
3. When dealing with the bads, they're not going to PREVENT you from clearing 99% of the time, so roll eyes and move along.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

It's not making it harder for everyone else. If its already hard for a dps to meet requirements for a raid then its their fault, not the healers. Healer dps in raids is a luxury, not a requirement.

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That's a fail; sorry to say, but the root of the word "luxury" is middle English meaning "excess". I do not believe there is such a thing as excess damage when we're talking top tier raiding. This comes back to utilizing your full tool kit. While the Devs have stated healer damage was not calculated into Alex Savage or Thordan ex, that does not mean it's excessive to refresh dots and pop CS during opportunity windows such as cast bars, etc. Again this has been echoed over 100 pages now, but don't pigeon-hole Healer classes because that was not how the classes were designed.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

While the Devs have stated healer damage was not calculated into Alex Savage or Thordan ex...

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I want to comment on this because Yoshi clarified this statement in a recent interview.

1. They DO consider Healer DPS: just the minimum DPS that they do when they're healing: Think Assize, or the DPS increase that comes with Fey Wind, etc.
2. They first set a minimum iLvl required for clearing. It is NOT the minimum iLvl for entry. The raids are designed to NOT be clearable until some new gear somes out. However, they CAN be cleared at minimum if the Healer/Tank DPS. In conclusion:

Excess Healer DPS IS required to clear at the initial iLvl

So 1000+ replies and sitll the same circle jerking? 'ight.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

So 1000+ replies and sitll the same circle jerking? 'ight.

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Its the forums. If you expected anything else I don't know what to tell you.

It's just as grindy as the grinds themselves.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

Excess Healer DPS IS required to clear at the initial iLvl

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Thank you for the clarification, either I had not read that or missed it if it had been posted here. I still have a problem with the word "Excees" though, because it doesn't really define healer damage in top tier raids, where I'd say any damage is necessary damage to complete the clear, I don't think it's overkill.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

So 1000+ replies and sitll the same circle jerking? 'ight.

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May the arrogance of some people last another 1000 posts.

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Originally Posted by KaitlanKela

1. They DO consider Healer DPS: just the minimum DPS that they do when they're healing: Think Assize, or the DPS increase that comes with Fey Wind, etc.

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FYI, later in the interview, Yoshi-P says this (I've included your quote as well just for context):

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Let's get right into it - we've seen many posts from readers relating to end-game content. When you go through development, how do you decide how to set the difficulty? For example, the amount of DPS required for each particular content.

Yoshida: When we make battle content, first we determine a minimum assumed item level required to clear. Then, we determine the total amount of party damage required to clear, taking a minimal amount of damage from tanks and healers into account during this calculation.

What do you mean by minimal?

Yoshida: Basically it's the damage from tank auto-attacks and the basic skill rotation used in order to maintain hate. We add this to the party damage needed. However, we often use zero in the calculation for damage required from healers. In other words, we only take into account the amount of damage necessary to perform as a tank or a healer and we don't take them into account as actively participating in attacking. For the clear assumption on DPS, we calculate the 100% value for the item level and we reduce that by 10 to 15 percent for the amount required to clear.

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I don't really want to put my foot into this debate because I've done it to death on the healer forum, and I don't intend to sift through 1K+ posts of what I'm pretty certain is the same thing as discussed there. But just wanted to present the entire quote so everyone can understand the context it was written in.

Source of mine and KaitlanKela's quotes - Slycer translation on BG of 4gamer interview.

What you basically did here was paraphrase my rebuttal, attempting to make it seem like your point of view that I am the one who doesn't understand, and then make the comment that DPS choosing to DPS instead of healing is actively making it more difficult for others. This is just about the stupidest thing you could've said. A DPS doesn't have the capability of healing the party, unless for some reason you're referencing Physick on a BLM or SMN.

Your poorly worded attempt at a rebuttal makes little in the way of sense, because you're somehow trying to use my argument of Healer utility as some divergent view of a player making things harder for a group by choosing to play as a DPS class. I apologize if that wasn't what you meant, but if it is that's absolutely idiotic. I'm going to go ahead and stop replying to your responses now, because I'm relatively sure anyone with the ability to clearly comprehend things understands my viewpoint on the situation, while I have absolutely zero idea what you're even trying to say any more as it is getting more and more skewed as the responses come.

TL;DR - Let's just agree to disagree, because I don't even think you know what your point is any more.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

FYI, later in the interview, Yoshi-P says this (I've included your quote as well just for context):




I don't really want to put my foot into this debate because I've done it to death on the healer forum, and I don't intend to sift through 1K+ posts of what I'm pretty certain is the same thing as discussed there. But just wanted to present the entire quote so everyone can understand the context it was written in.

Source of mine and KaitlanKela's quotes - Slycer translation on BG of 4gamer interview.

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This is correct ^^ I kinda skimmed it and I saw "minimal DPS contribution" and took it to mean non-dps classes, but it only meant tanks, my fault.

Point still stands: If you want to clear at the minimal ilvl, healers and tanks have GOT to DPS. DPS or wait for gear, your choice. :)

Dev's stance on Healer (and Tanks, I guess) DPS is similar to that of Parsers. They know it's a thing and have no issues with it in principle, but at the same time they don't/won't officially endorse the concept.

Currently we are having a battle development team out of control...
Yoshi-P is too busy and he once said he havnt finished the storyline yet...
I will accept it if yoshi-p or a random dev team can clear savage but as long as the same battle team that created the boss can clear it, its not good enough!
I dont mind giving them some gear as long as they SEE what they have produced... they must FEEL the pain and not only watch videos from battle team!

Well, i wonder if they have enough healers or tanks *giggle* :)

( I only read like the 10 and last 3 pages here) Personally I don't care if a healer also does DPS, I only care if they do what they're doing correctly. Like for example, the SCH. If a sch has their fairy on sic ( doesn't matter which fairy) it kinda bugs me, if they're dps its going to hurt them since eos using whispering dawn whenever a fights starts and it's not available when the going gets tough. If they're healing ....... really doesn't affect them but still Eos is just wasting her CD's.

I think people need to understand that DPSing isn't a healers job.

DPSing as a healer (and keeping the party alive) makes you a good healer. Not DPSing means you're doing your job, but you could do better.

Just because a healer doesn't DPS doesn't mean they are bad. If they are doing their job then you shouldn't be complaining. Not everyone has the ability to heal and DPS, especially new healers. Practice makes perfect and I would never call a healer bad because they didn't DPS if they are keeping the party alive.

I personally heal and DPS, I even DPS more than heal sometimes, but that doesn't mean every healer is obliged to.

Don't be so closed minded healing is more than just standing there waiting for bars to drop. Its not a great national tragedy if someone's asks for a holy now and then or some dots

http://forum.supercell.net/attachmen...5&d=1458746353

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

I think people need to understand that DPSing isn't a healers job.

DPSing as a healer (and keeping the party alive) makes you a good healer. Not DPSing means you're doing your job, but you could do better.

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I'd tend to agree. Bad healers let people die and leave debuffs all over. A healer that isn't letting people die and is keeping debuffs off the party is at least meeting the minimum requirements for their job. Healers that DPS are going above and beyond. I can't tell you how many times I've looked over parse numbers after a dungeon clear or a trial and actually done more DPS than HPS and of the healing I actually do, 60-70% of it comes from Eos and most of the rest is precast Adloquiums. xD

Why oh why did you cast Raise on this thread ;; Stone it back to it's grave.

Oh not this again. Ok, to settle this: Healers who don't DPS are fine, consider it a bonus if we do, dungeons aren't built with our deeps in mind, and if enrage timers are being hit, or enemies are taking forever to die, if your class icon is red, YOU ARE THE ONE SLACKING, NOT US.

I DPS every now and then, but sometimes I'm tired, and really couldn't be bothered to stance dance my way to a 3 minute faster dungeon clear.

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Excuse me it is not being lazy. I took healer to heal not DPS. If I wanted to DPS I would play a DPS class. If I keep everyone alive then I am doing my job.

Do you also expect the DPS to throw heals too? If no then why do you expect healers to DPS?

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Because they cannot heal party members- their roles are different but also, just like yours, not black and white. If you aren't using your abilities to the fullest potential for party progression, someone else is being forced to make up for your shortcomings (re: doing your work) and it ultimately undermines progression efficiency.

Being a team player means doing every facet of your job. That is why attentive dps still buff the rest of the party when appropriate, why attentive casters still heal or res when appropriate, and why an attentive tank heals or switches to dps mode when appropriate. Because they can. And because they should. Just like you can and should, when appropriate.

Sure, there are perfectly good examples where damage is so intense that you are expected to heal through the content and worry less about damage output. That does not, however, mean that you are excused from putting out every shred of damage your GCD still allows, based on the enemy with whom you are engaged.

"If you can lean, you can clean."

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

Why oh why did you cast Raise on this thread ;; Stone it back to it's grave.

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And they said nothing at all worth raising it for either, just nothing...

Since this thread originally came up, if I find I'm in a run with a healer who just stands around and waits for hp to drop, I don't dodge. I'll eat every single attack the mobs throw at me. If they want to ONLY heal and not help make my job as a dps easier, then I absolutely refuse to make theirs easier by dodging the avoidable damage. Plain and simple. Dps or not, it's your choice. Dodging or not, is mine.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Since this thread originally came up, if I find I'm in a run with a healer who just stands around and waits for hp to drop, I don't dodge. I'll eat every single attack the mobs throw at me. If they want to ONLY heal and not help make my job as a dps easier, then I absolutely refuse to make theirs easier by dodging the avoidable damage. Plain and simple. Dps or not, it's your choice. Dodging or not, is mine.

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The worst lazy healers are the ones who literally jump around the party doing nothing waiting for my HP to drop.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

DPSing as a healer (and keeping the party alive) makes you a good healer. Not DPSing means you're doing your job, but you could do better.

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this isn't always true, sometimes the group just isn't good enough in some way for the healer to cleric stance over and DPS because they have their hands full with healing. you might think this is rare and really it should be but I see this a lot in DF randoms.

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Originally Posted by FinalWolf

The worst lazy healers are the ones who literally jump around the party doing nothing waiting for my HP to drop.

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That's why we give em a reason, either way, they are gonna work :3

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

this isn't always true, sometimes the group just isn't good enough in some way for the healer to cleric stance over and DPS because they have their hands full with healing. you might think this is rare and really it should be but I see this a lot in DF randoms.

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There are exceptions obviously, and that was my point. It doesn't make someone a bad healer to .. you know.. just be healing. That's our job. DPSing is a bonus, but players really should be trying to improve themselves if they find themselves standing around doing nothing in between heals.

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Originally Posted by Settiesama

Why oh why did you cast Raise on this thread ;; Stone it back to it's grave.

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I'm sorry T.T I found a certains persons comment that was added to someones signature comment( the things on the bottom on every one of your comments if you have it)and i thought since there was over a 100 pages since January it would of took months for it to reach 100 pages T.T ' cries in a corner"

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Originally Posted by Powe

I'm sorry T.T I found a certains persons comment that was added to someones signature comment( the things on the bottom on every one of your comments if you have it)and i thought since there was over a 100 pages since January it would of took months for it to reach 100 pages T.T ' cries in a corner"

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This is the Forums.. a place for discussion. Don't apologise for commenting on a thread :)

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

There are exceptions obviously, and that was my point. It doesn't make someone a bad healer to .. you know.. just be healing. That's our job. DPSing is a bonus, but players really should be trying to improve themselves if they find themselves standing around doing nothing in between heals.

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this I agree with

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

Sorry venting
Was on my healer doing my expert and roulette and this SMN kept saying I should dot or help dps
Now I'm fine with dpsing occasionally but that's not my job!
Dps was slacking already was a 40min run in Saint.
Granted I let the tank die once because I was typing to said group, but that's all.
This SMN said I wasn't even doing my job, but my job is to heal! If I wanted to dps i'll switch to a dps class.
Don't argue with someone just because they're healing and doing their job.
This dps also was ignoring mechanics from belladonna, not looking away from whatever that move is called.
Also he/she wasn't new had full 210 gear
Edit:
Looks like people can't read and took this thread to a whole new level
I said I dps occasionally, if group is great you better believe i'm going to spam the f out of holy.
Said dps was slacking! So you guys expect a healer to dps when the dps want TO BE LAZY. F that if I get lazy dps you get a lazy healer.
I let the tank die because this SMN was arguing with me. So of course I take blme because I'm the healer
With dps ignoring mechanics kind of hard to dps as well! Especially if said dps was full 210

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The short version: If I have to help DPS I think I'm gonna be short a DPSer. Unless you're doing super difficult content it's only a plus, not a requirement.

I like what the fellow said a pge back about not dodging. It may sound extreme, but it really boils down to the same thing. A dps can minimize the healing needed, just like a healer can take care of some deeps. Dpsing as healer isn't any harder than dodging as dps either.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

I like what the fellow said a pge back about not dodging. It may sound extreme, but it really boils down to the same thing. A dps can minimize the healing needed, just like a healer can take care of some deeps. Dpsing as healer isn't any harder than dodging as dps either.

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I know a chick who was asked to use Virus during Thordan EX. She said, "you don't understand how hard it is to DPS as a healer." She's a sch btw. (I think I heard Kaurie and Ashkendor die a little inside.)

Last week I got my WHM to 60 and like around few days before that, I was in Aery. I kept dpsing and the tank NEVER died, even with lots of pulls, they NEVER used vengance on their warrior and I still kept them alive while dpsing (because holy is OP with stuns :p). They never used maim or storms eye or path either, just butchers block combo, even on bigger packs they rarely did overpower. Well if they did do the storms combo's it wasn't often for sure but either way this happens when I die for the fift time because they refuse to tank properly.

http://i.imgur.com/aLqovBl.png
Is this okay? I'm not saying all tanks are like this, but holy shit, I really hate just healing in a dungeon and just sit there and wait till something is going on, which rarely happens. Like right after I hit 60 and tried my fresh 60 whm in the lvl 60 roulette, I met 1 tank who rarely was in the tank stance after he got aggro, used cooldowns while I kept dpsing, keep in mind the dps's I had in that group was also amazing, thought it somehow was a premade but it wasn't. This run took 11 min to finish. Now, I'm not saying everyone should heal and dps if they don't want to, but if you gonna complaing healing is boring and it's the only class you can instant que with, you either stop que as a healer or start dpsing and then same time keep the tank alive. I personaly love dpsing and same time heal, not because it makes the run faster but I also improve as a healer which is my goal, to be better and also its fun being better no? I honestly don't see some people's logic.

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Originally Posted by Taramin

Oh not this again. Ok, to settle this: Healers who don't DPS are fine, consider it a bonus if we do, dungeons aren't built with our deeps in mind, and if enrage timers are being hit, or enemies are taking forever to die, if your class icon is red, YOU ARE THE ONE SLACKING, NOT US.

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I agree on this, however if everyone can optimized there will mostlikely be less mechanics going on, which means less cd usage from tanks and less heal which be less burden for the players. Again, I will say it, I don't expect people to dps as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

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It is not okay because you were being inconsiderate of the tank. :P As much as I dislike dpsing no-defensive/enmity abilities warriors, you should not get obsessed with pressing all the buttons when the tank has enmity issues. 5 times really? xD And you hadn't considered that maybe you could have lowered your enmity output by not dpsing?

I know that doing less than you can do may hurt your ego, but sometimes doing too much can be even worse than doing too little.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

I know a chick who was asked to use Virus during Thordan EX. She said, "you don't understand how hard it is to DPS as a healer." She's a sch btw. (I think I heard Kaurie and Ashkendor die a little inside.)

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Hahaha. Honestly, it takes practice to DPS effectively even as a SCH.

You have to learn exactly how much your fairy can carry. ;3

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Originally Posted by Seraphix2407

Is this okay? I'm not saying all tanks are like this, but holy shit, I really hate just healing in a dungeon and just sit there and wait till something is going on, which rarely happens.

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It's not okay. The tank wasn't doing his job, which probably would've kept you from doing even basic healing. Healing generates tons of aggro, and if the tank was failing to keep AoE hate on mob packs, you would've had stuff chasing you either way.

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Originally Posted by Archaell

It is not okay because you were being inconsiderate of the tank. :P As much as I dislike dpsing no-defensive/enmity abilities warriors, you should not get obsessed with pressing all the buttons when the tank has enmity issues. 5 times really? xD And you hadn't considered that maybe you could have lowered your enmity output by not dpsing?

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Healing generates far more enmity than DPS does. She probably would have had the same problem whether she DPS'ed or not. This isn't a matter of being considerate or inconsiderate to the tank. If the tank isn't holding enmity, they flat-out aren't doing their job and either their gear needs to be updated or their play needs some major adjustment. Since this was in Aery, she was synced down to a gear level appropriate for the dungeon and unless they were undergeared for the content, there's no way that a warrior of all things should have had any problems whatsoever keeping hate off of her.