The Monk Temple

So doing PB>DK>SPx3 after IR and BFB is ideal way of starting PB.? And also doing PB does it jump u to GL3 right away?

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I really like Twin-Snapx3-DK for a starter(as from your post). I don't use it much as a starter but I think that's the best one.

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On review, I realize I didn't incorporate the +% damage from each step of GL--not that it matters, since more +% damage is going to pay off more anyway. But just for completeness sake:

DK>Twin>Snapx3 looks like this: 150 > (140+10%) 154 > (180+20%) 216 > (180+27%) 228.6 > (180+34%) 241.2 = 989.8 net potency
Twin>Snapx3>DK looks like this: 140 > (180+10%) 198 > (180+17%) 210.6 > (180+24%) 223.2 > (150+31%) 196.5 = 968.3 net potency

So the initial difference is about 31 rather than about 53. Still insignificant, but now it's Mathemagically™ insignificant!

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Originally Posted by Butcherb0y

And also doing PB does it jump u to GL3 right away?

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No, but since you can chain attacks of any form, you can use Coeurl form moves to gain stacks of GL one after another. eg. Snap>Snap>Snap will give you GL1, then GL2, then GL3 in six short seconds.

Ok thank that's the only part I'm confuse about PB

As I said, after many Sims, there's no much difference in the PB opening in terme of damage done (the damage you lose somewhere will be recover later on, that's how our "rotation works"). But, the ideal in term of buff keeping and easy to use rotation, is :

PB > SP > SP > SP > TW > DK cause if you apply DK at first, the buff will fall down before recovering any Coeurl stance (cause of PB not bringing you to stance after it expires, you lose one entire cycle, so > 6 sec and since PB last 10 sec, you will lose a bit on DK).
I simed many opening on 60 sec duration and this one brings the most. Also, you're not able to put 4 skills during PB with the BiS Crit / Det if you don't start with SP (or DS but my sims showed that this is not optimal to do DS right here cause it doesn't benefit from Buffs and cooldowns and the delta between first DS loss and DS under all buffs is catched up very fast with DoTs under effects shortly after PB).

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

On review, I realize I didn't incorporate the +% damage from each step of GL--not that it matters, since more +% damage is going to pay off more anyway. But just for completeness sake:

DK>Twin>Snapx3 looks like this: 150 > (140+10%) 154 > (180+20%) 216 > (180+27%) 228.6 > (180+34%) 241.2 = 989.8 net potency

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Since we're opening and trying to use cooldowns/DoTs asap (yenno, for the damages, instead of waiting another rotation or two to do it), why not use BfB after the first snap, IR after the second snap, and replace the third snap with Demolish > Fracture + Steel Peak > ToD + Howling Fist > normal rotation. Sure, the Demolish won't gain the benefits from that last stack of GL but I'd bet that that's pretty insignificant, and you get to pop your CDs and apply DoTs much sooner.

By the way, really glad I found your opener post. The one I was doing before today was much worse. Thanks for that.

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

In another thread, I considered the optimal use of PB at battle start.

You'll notice chaining Snaps is less effective than bolstering them first with DK and Twin. Using DK under the effect of PB will apply the DK debuff, while using it from a neutral form will not. If you could fit only 4 steps into PB, opening with DK is still ideal.

Basically, you'll do more damage, more quickly if you use PB to ramp up to GL3 instead of putting it off for Snap spam. It's a different story if you're in the middle of an encounter and want to use PB "just for the damage."

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I see what you're saying. Actually, I've been using PB as a "boot up" mode for boss encounters, but changed that to get the TS buff up before starting to spam SP. I didn't consider DK not giving a buff in neutral stance though (similar how i didn't get why AoD doesn't always give silence)

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Also, I think it's a bad idea to burn BfB/IR before you're ready to apply DoTs.

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BfB should still be up after my rotation though. I'm counting with a GCD of 2.02, having 7 skill in the initial combo = 14,14 seconds. Following by BS -> that skill which name I can't remember -> Demolish leaves me at 18,18s of BfB runtime at Demolish. Granted, I won't be able to fit a ToD and Fracture in that anymore. And IR will run out long before it.

edit: another thing: for the PB stage, I like to use STR+ potions. Coupled with IR it usually results in a huge DPS spike.

How big of a boost is Blood for Blood? My raid group said the boost could have killed the last 5 bosses in turn 4 and the last 30% in turn 2 ADS. Unfortunately I'm about to be kicked if I don't have B4B by tomorrow despite being the most geared..

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Originally Posted by Lucipurr

How big of a boost is Blood for Blood? My raid group said the boost could have killed the last 5 bosses in turn 4 and the last 30% in turn 2 ADS. Unfortunately I'm about to be kicked if I don't have B4B by tomorrow despite being the most geared..

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how the hell did they let you in coil and you don't have blood for blood? smh.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I did some calculations based on this quote. I sure that SS formula is right, not sure about the crit.


I would need 45 more SS to get to 497. What would that get me? An extra GCD (that would be the ultimate goal).
How often? Every 50 attacks, I get one extra.
That's 2 every 100 attacks.

For the same amount of crit, you'll get 3.76.
Every 100 attacks, that means you crit 3 more times (and change, with that 0.76).

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Crit rate is a CHANCE at a crit. Just because your crit rate is 13% doesn't mean you will hit 13 crits out of 100. It doesn't work that way.

The skill speed is for an extra move in your rotation before you have to restack GL3. I would recommend 2-3 Impulse Drives from the back for 180 potency each. The highest base potency you can use whenever.

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Originally Posted by Powercow

Now let's assume you have a fairly high amount of Skillspeed. Assume that with 3 stacks of Greased Lightning you're at a flat 2.0 GCD (this will keep the math easier to follow). OK?

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Sooooo, how in the world are you going to not stack SS if you need it to be at 490 to be at 2.0sec GCD ?

You stack SS to 492~497 and then you use crit....which is a CHANCE to crit. This is not over 100 times, it is EACH hit has a % to crit. The same as with melding. Just because you have 40% chance to successfully meld an item doesn't mean that you will have 40 successful melds every 100 tries. This game doesn't work that way.

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Originally Posted by Perthaneus-Magnum

Crit rate is a CHANCE at a crit. Just because your crit rate is 13% doesn't mean you will hit 13 crits out of 100. It doesn't work that way.

The skill speed is for an extra move in your rotation before you have to restack GL3. I would recommend 2-3 Impulse Drives from the back for 180 potency each. The highest base potency you can use whenever.

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Yeah, this is probabilities, but this is how you calculate % based stat however. Otherwise you are doing meta probabilities and so, kind of philosophy. And with 490+ SS, you'll don't have so much crit / det in 90 ilvl item.
Plus, ID vs Rear rotation is :

BS > TrS > SP > DK ...
vs
ID > ID > ID > DK ...

1) BS vs ID : 195 vs 180 = 15 delta. An ID crit will be 270. 270 - 195 = 75. 75 / 15 = 5 => You need 1 crit out of 5 ID for ID to be more DPS in a long time run. As you said, Crit is % so you need ~ 25% crit for it to be better which is impossible with a SS build
2) TrS vs ID : no debate. Ok, you'll gain more Tp buffering with TrS
3) ID vs SP: equal

So you win in fact one ID. Which brings you to the best rotation : BS > ID > ID > TwS > SP> DK > ... but this leaves you with only 2 sec left on GL3 to fade, so careful especially with OGCD skills delays (yeah don't speak about "off gcd" this is no real off gcd and you lose about 0.3 sec with them). I use this rotation for burst phase, Flank / Rear rotation for long time run (TP management and lot of moves ...). But in fact, this makes me sad TrS is not as good as ID. I think there could be improvement with this skill.

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Originally Posted by Naalya-Deix

Yeah, this is probabilities, but this is how you calculate % based stat however. Otherwise you are doing meta probabilities and so, kind of philosophy. And with 490+ SS, you'll don't have so much crit / det in 90 ilvl item.

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But that's the thing...if two people do the same calculation based on a RATE, then they will get different results. Just because one person got these numbers when they were using crit rate, etc doesn't mean that someone else will get the same equal results.

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Originally Posted by Perthaneus-Magnum

But that's the thing...if two people do the same calculation based on a RATE, then they will get different results. Just because one person got these numbers when they were using crit rate, etc doesn't mean that someone else will get the same equal results.

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In empirical way for sure, that's why you are forced to base your calculations on a common referential / model. And as rate as it is there is two fact with crit :

- On a long run, probabilities will converge
- On a short run, your SS build will likely be "more optimal" than in a long run, but EACH crit will be more efficient (espacially combined with lot of Det).

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Originally Posted by Perthaneus-Magnum

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That's exactly what probability means! Though 13 out of 100 may be an exaggeration, but 130 out of 1000 or 1300 out of 10,000 is not. The longer the sample goes on, the more the probability matches the percent and loses its RNG component.
On games with more reliable parsing than this one, crit works the same way (chance on each hit). In those games, your overall crit chance always matches your individual crit chance. Why? Because it always balances out. Even in this game's parsing, your crit chance does not vary that much.

You flip a coin 1000 times. How many do you think you'll get heads? It will always be very close to 500.

Crit is not as random as you think it is.

if you have time to TrueS rotation, lets see at what crit ID spam would be superior?

Assuming we are doing

DK > TwinS > SP
BS > TrueS > SP

vs

DK > TwinS > SP
ID > ID > ID right?

Taking out the SP its BS TrueS SP vs 3ID

BS is 195, TrueS is 140*(1+(crit+0.05)/2), SP is 180*(1+crit/2), 3ID is 3*180*(1+crit/2)

Solving, 140*(1+(x+0.05)/2) + 195 + 180*(1 + x/2) = 3*180*(1+x/2), x = -0.19

So you need more than NEGATIVE 19% crit for ID to be more EV damage.

So...its going to be more damage.

Always.

So if you have the SS for 3 fillers, you ALWAYS want to ID spam.

...unless you're running out of TP.

That raises the question, at what point does ID win out in terms of TP efficiency?

well we use the same equation, dividing the sides by their TP costs...

(140*(1+(x+0.05)/2) + 195 + 180*(1 + x/2))/160 = 3*180*(1+x/2)/210

We get...crit = 2.34, or 234%...so ID is NEVER more damage for the TP.

Thus...I dunno, you guys decide XD

i personaly prefer to use this rotation for ID

DK-twin-demo/snap-dk(debuff applyed)-twin-snap-BS-ID-ID-twin-snap-DK-twin-demo/snap-BS-ID-ID-twin-snap

like that you still keep twin up all the time,DK debuff,using BS and 2x ID that do good dmg.

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Originally Posted by Perthaneus-Magnum

Sooooo, how in the world are you going to not stack SS if you need it to be at 490 to be at 2.0sec GCD ?

You stack SS to 492~497 and then you use crit....which is a CHANCE to crit. This is not over 100 times, it is EACH hit has a % to crit. The same as with melding. Just because you have 40% chance to successfully meld an item doesn't mean that you will have 40 successful melds every 100 tries. This game doesn't work that way.

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That first example was someone with a heavy emphasis on SS. That was the point -- even if you heavily emphasize SS, it's still going to suck.

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Originally Posted by Kotose

Since we're opening and trying to use cooldowns/DoTs asap (yenno, for the damages, instead of waiting another rotation or two to do it), why not use BfB after the first snap, IR after the second snap, and replace the third snap with Demolish > Fracture + Steel Peak > ToD + Howling Fist > normal rotation. Sure, the Demolish won't gain the benefits from that last stack of GL but I'd bet that that's pretty insignificant, and you get to pop your CDs and apply DoTs much sooner.

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The difference is going to be 16 potency (+7%) between GL2 Demo and GL3 Demo. Doesn't sound like much, sure, but there is no urgency to applying a DoT one rotation sooner unless you anticipate the target will die in 18 seconds.

Ultimately, you want to get out of PB with 3 stacks of GL. Any extra potency you squeeze out of that is just icing.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

another thing: for the PB stage, I like to use STR+ potions. Coupled with IR it usually results in a huge DPS spike.

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Oh yeah. And it's an absolute monster with Rockbreaker.
HIDE YO BUGS HIDE YO ROOKS AND HIDE YO SOLDIERS TOO CUZ WE BREAKIN ERYBODY OUT HERE

I have a question regarding ID placement in our rotation. I tend to place it after true strike so it would be DK > TrueS > ID > ID > SP. If I didn't need to reapply DoTs or anything I can fit a 3rd ID in there as well. The reason I place ID there is simply if due to fight mechanics (e.g. The boss moves and I have to chase him) I need to drop an ID or two to retain GL, it's easy to tell whereas if it is earlier in the rotation and he moves after the ID spam, it's too late to drop them from the rotation at that point. My question is, is placing them later in the rotation a dps loss compared to earlier in the rotation?

Note: I just woke up, so if the answer is obvious and I've missed it, I apologize. And also a quick thanks to all the people working so hard to help us all figure out the best way to pound on things with our monks!

ID doesn't even fit into the rotation until after you've refreshed your GL from applying your first DoT set.

So it'd be Demo > Fracture > ToD > DK > TwinS > SP > DK > TwinS > ID > ID > ID > Demo (DoTs should now require refreshing). Repeat ad infinitum.

I don't even use True Strike what am I saying. (Please forgive the edit.)

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

ID doesn't even fit into the rotation until after you've refreshed your GL from applying your first DoT set.

So it'd be Demo > Fracture > ToD > DK > TwinS > SP > DK > TrS > ID > ID > ID > Demo (DoTs should now require refreshing). Repeat ad infinitum.

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This would have your dots never buffed by Twin Snakes.

Please see the edit.

ID doesn't belong in a MNK rotation except for specific bursts. It has less DPS/TP efficiency than pretty much all of MNKs other single-target options, and also requires moving behind the target to make use of it, whereas a MNK is at home on the target's side, typically.

The whole notion of stacking SS as a priority and putting in more IDs as a result is a make-shift way to enhance MNK's ability to deal burst DPS at the cost of sustained DPS.

Or just make a BRD friend? :confused:

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Or just make a BRD friend? :confused:

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Pretty much... I mean you shift gears into burst mode on MNK doing that, but even then you're not as good as a BLM when it comes to burst, and a BLM won't suddenly go out of commission for bursting either lol. When it comes to blowing their load in burst, BRD is also better than an ID MNK.

Point of MNK is to deal reliably high DPS in a sustained battle, and in that regard it outshines pretty much all other DPS jobs, perhaps save for SMN, but that's yet to be determined. Overloading MNK's rotation with inefficient skills like ID, and even Fracture tbh goes against that.

I mean sure, if you're burning down Demon Wall or Ananta, then by all means go balls to the wall with it. However, ID and Fracture by no means belong in a generic MNK rotation that can be used in every scenario. Just try bringing ID and Fracture into Twintania lol.

My guild has several raid groups on turn 5 and their MNK use Fracture and ID in conjunction with BRD on every turn?

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

My guild has several raid groups on turn 5 and their MNK use Fracture and ID in conjunction with BRD on every turn?

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You'd need the Paeon, yea. I suppose it depends on the party make-up, since there can also be a demand for MP. It's not necessary is the point. The slight increase in DPS is not worth the increased dependency on BRD songs imo, especially when your healers or tanks may need MP.

They're just very inefficient skills. Especially in fights where there is no real DPS race.

Oh, no, it isn't necessary. It's just nice because MNK DPS explodes when you can forget about TP.

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Oh, no, it isn't necessary. It's just nice because MNK DPS explodes when you can forget about TP.

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It gets higher as expected, yes. Idk about explodes though lol... I mean it's already incredibly high. I've done the whole Fracture/ID thing before. DPS goes up a decent amount. Still won't match the isolated DPS of a BLM's Astral phase though :P

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Originally Posted by Naalya-Deix

Plus, ID vs Rear rotation is : BS > TrS > SP > DK ...

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I wasn't referring to the main rotation. I was actually meaning: BS > TrS > ID > ID > ID> SP > DK

These are the kind of rotations I am referring to.....without losing DK or TwS buff.

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Originally Posted by Perthaneus-Magnum

I wasn't referring to the main rotation. I was actually meaning: BS > TrS > ID > ID > ID> SP > DK

These are the kind of rotations I am referring to.....without losing DK or TwS buff.

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You've got TrS listed in there... and you're also stuffing 3 IDs... yet you talk of not losing TwS. Impossible.

If you don't use TrS, then you can stuff those IDs in there with enough SS to maintain TwS, but otherwise nope.

Honestly, SS is currently a shit stat to focus on as MNK. The amount you inevitably get through itemization is sufficient, even provided you focus on crit/det. Itemization doesn't allow you to fully min max any of those sub stats. Thus, granted that none of them are particularly low, using what influence we have to stack crit or det gives better results than SS.

What's wrong with Fracture btw? Is it too high of a TP cost? I usually have it up now and then as part of one of my rotations and haven't noticed a negative impact yet. Haven't been to coil except that random invite to kill Caduceus...

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

What's wrong with Fracture btw? Is it too high of a TP cost? I usually have it up now and then as part of one of my rotations and haven't noticed a negative impact yet. Haven't been to coil except that random invite to kill Caduceus...

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I use it on every turn except 5 and don't run into issues. Turn 5 yeah TP is a major issue so I leave it completely out of the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

What's wrong with Fracture btw? Is it too high of a TP cost? I usually have it up now and then as part of one of my rotations and haven't noticed a negative impact yet. Haven't been to coil except that random invite to kill Caduceus...

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The TP Cost is higher than any of MNK's skills yea, and furthermore the dps it gives isn't worth it.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

The TP Cost is higher than any of MNK's skills yea, and furthermore the dps it gives isn't worth it.

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I understand for fights when you run out of TP, but don't say it's not worth it. It's still a 220 potency attack.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I understand for fights when you run out of TP, but don't say it's not worth it. It's still a 220 potency attack.

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^ this.

1010

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I understand for fights when you run out of TP, but don't say it's not worth it. It's still a 220 potency attack.

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I've already stated that for fights where there's a quick burn involved and no concern of TP, such as Demon Wall or Anantabogas in AK... or anything similar really, then go balls to the wall with anything that increases DPS because well, TP doesn't matter. When you can ignore TP outright, then you can do quite a number of things to increase your DPS.

That being said, there are many fights where you cannot outright ignore TP, and running out of TP is a real concern, whether it involves you dropping to 0 and becoming almost dead-weight, or relying on a BRD to funnel resources to you, further dropping their DPS. At that point, DPS/TP efficiency becomes relevant.

I have Fracture on my bar. I just don't use it for more fights.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I've already stated that for fights where there's a quick burn involved and no concern of TP, such as Demon Wall or Anantabogas in AK... or anything similar really, then go balls to the wall with anything that increases DPS because well, TP doesn't matter. When you can ignore TP outright, then you can do quite a number of things to increase your DPS.

That being said, there are many fights where you cannot outright ignore TP, and running out of TP is a real concern, whether it involves you dropping to 0 and becoming almost dead-weight, or relying on a BRD to funnel resources to you, further dropping their DPS. At that point, DPS/TP efficiency becomes relevant.

I have Fracture on my bar. I just don't use it for more fights.

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Really unless you are relying on that uber monk aoe dps in turn 4...outside of turn 5 I can't think of a single fight where TP is an issue for me.

Fracture by itself in a lot of fights isn't an issue, but using Fracture and ID would cause huge TP issues. Outside of boss fights you wont use fracture much anyway since it wont get a lot of damage on trash that gets killed way too fast. In HM primal fights of course you can use fracture after GL3 is up, anytime before that and you're wasting time and TP better spent securing your best buff.

Also at GL 3 it becomes decision time when it comes to fracture, and honestly this is all personal preference and based on your skill speed stat. At minimal Speed needed to throw true strike in without losing twin snakes if you put in fracture a skill that doesn't advance your stance, you can no longer true strike, you must twin snakes or you lose the damage buff, so you skip true strike till the next rotation. It's just a decision making thing but you also spend a lot of TP to secure that DMG buff + DoT.

I personally use fracture in every high HP fight without running out of TP, but honestly, if the fight drags on to where you have to use invigorate, at that point you should drop fracture out of your rotation and just concentrate on sustaining your damage. Because if you drop to 0 again you're going to be dead weight.

In my opinion, ID has extremely limited uses. I don't use it unless I am foregoing DoTs (mob is going to die in less than 18 seconds) and TP is a non issue. So, yeah if you were using ID in a normal rotation then you would have issues.