[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

Balance

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/a...7&d=1413527009
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/a...8&d=1413527028

Also note that smn went from 16% to 21% says people are liking the job, not hating it.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Maybe some of my suggestions are radical, however i was hoping that people take each idea on individual basis and maybe combined it with their own ideas to make it work. If i lack your experience i am glad to hear in detail on how my ideas will not work, so i can refine them. You only want to discuss me...not my ideas.

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You're glad to hear, unless it is about balance, in which case you will say that it's not our job to balance the game.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Oh no i made a single mistake about the 2s because when i looked up information to educate myself on the job just to be sure i accidentally switched the numbers. I guess i should never be taken seriously again because you don't want change to happen after you repeatable use ad hominens yourself to say why my ideas hold no merit even though you never went into detail as to why. I guess the fact that i admitted to my mistake and willing to discuss my mistakes means i lack any credibility.How many people on the internet can actually admit their mistakes? I mean seriously. I guess this is why people cannot admit they are wrong on the internet half the time, because people want to constantly use it as leverage against them.

I mean do you know even what a ad hominem is?Here is an example i found to illustrate my point.

(1) William Dembski argues that modern biology supports the idea that there is an intelligent designer who created life.
(2) Dembski would say that because he’s religious.
Therefore:
(3) Modern biology doesn’t support intelligent design.
This argument rejects the view that intelligent design is supported by modern science based on a remark about the person advancing the view, not by engaging with modern biology. It ignores the argument, focusing only on the arguer; it is therefore a fallacious argument ad hominem.

See the bold statement?Maybe I was focused on you in my last post to you, so maybe i made the mistake myself since i was replying to your post that was completely ad hominem based. Your original post focused on me rather than anything i have said, you don't take any idea and dissect it only attack my credibility since you know you can't stop me from posting, otherwise you would probably have this entire thread shut down if you had your way.

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I have actually went over one of your ideas...

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Originally Posted by dday3six

Being versatile is one thing. Summoner having a combat rez is versatile. Doing too much as one job is overpowered.

Using your Stance Change example. If there was a job that could be a Tank with all their tanking skills in one stance and a complete Healer in the other. It would only make sense to play that job opposed to just a simple Tank or Healer. Balance is each job having a place at the table. If one job does exactly what another does, plus more, thus invalidating the other job. It's overpowered. There is no nuance to that.

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You chose to ignore that, and instead focus on the idea that I'm attacking you. Playing the job to 50 and through endgame gives you a more defined scope. It's the difference between reading a book vs reading a book review or synopses.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

So far everyone would rather say why i am wrong to discuss rather than on how the job could change. If you do not want the job to change, that is fine.However going out of your way to discredit others ideas because you believe that we should only follow YOUR guidelines on how we should discuss it is not only selfish, but completely ludicrous. Yes it may be somewhat selfish on my part that i want the job to change, however....FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE...AND.... looking at how many people voted for change in this thread i really do not think i am in the minority here. Summoner would guaranteed become one of the most played jobs if SE did do the job more justice than they have done.

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Not everyone is saying that, you're letting disagreement run wild, and making case for some sort of persecution complex.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Am i Self-centered?Maybe.Once again an ad hominem focusing on people rather than the substance of the ideas i discussed.Any suggestion can be called selfish, are you trying to say we are not allowed to discuss what we want?Who is being self-centered here really?Just me? I highly doubt it.

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I said...

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Originally Posted by dday3six

The greatest issue I take with the vocal minority demanding a complete Summoner overhaul is the self-centered nature of their endeavor. I'll give you an example of your own selfish ideas for Summoner. Making it appear on the party list, so healers are now responsible for it staying alive. Why should healers be forced to have more job duties to take care of YOUR pet?

Most people are fine with Summoner the way it is. It's well represented according SE's most recent census. Any assumptions that the job needs to be more alluring are individual assertions, and not representative of the playerbase at large. A small collection of players want Summoner redone. They do not care if most people would rather SE work on new content. They don't care that current Summoners would have to basically learn a new class if that happens. All they care about is there own personal ideas of what a Summoner should be.

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Your idea is selfish because it thought only about you, and not about how healer might feel with now having to take care of your pet. That is directed at your idea, not you as a person. If you desire to be taken seriously, I strongly urge you be learn to better recognize the difference.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

What happens during expansions? What kind of abilities do you think they will add to summoners future?Please let me know of your ideas.Since it WILL eventually happen. It is only a matter of time before you have to learn a new way of playing your job(who's to say 10 levels worth of abilities won't be a drastic change?), change is in the very nature of the mmo. It is why people would make this topic in the first place. Hence, why SE completely reworked FFXIV in the first place. We all know if enough players demand change that SE will eventually listen. They may not enact these changes right away but we can refine them in the meantime and through many people's ideas and experience we all can temper and improve them instead of say they have no business talking about it.

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Under the current system 10 levels would translate to 2 skills. That is not likely to enact any sort of dramatic change. Furthermore from a design standpoint it's easier to have fewer new skills added in 10 levels because it eliminates issues we currently face were a class/job plays very different depending on level. If several skills were added it would create issues were SE needs to balance dungeons around what skills job are going to have.

What happens slowly are over many expansions and years is not comparable to a total rework upfront. The reason it would be concerning for Summoners to suddenly have to learn to replay the job is because it removes their effectiveness during that time. People run the risk of being benched during progression raids. Ask a pre-2.1 Warrior how it feels to be told you need to play another job, or to join Duties only to be kicked or have people leave.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

You keep talking of majority...in a thread that has a poll where more people voted to change the job than not.

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Forums only represent a small number of the playerbase. The OP has not been updated in more than a year. 60 tallies total is a tiny amount compared to the 2.5 million players claims as of the 2.4 patch trailer. There is not thread after thread demanding a rework. The census shows that Summoners are equally represented. The thread is not the sole measure that I base statement of majority on.

In game census is not good representation of a majority since players can have multiple Jobs. The Consensus doesn't tell us the percentage of players that main Summoner. People complain in a variety ways they can leave in game suggestions or vent in their fc chat only a small percentage of people complain on the forums most if they don't like the Job they silently stop playing without any feed back.

The reason Summoner threads pop up on Website Feed Back and Suggestions every 2 weeks and the Dps and General Thread every month is because the Summoner wasn't Beta Tested SE just put a Necromancer/Warlock in the game redressed it as a Summoner and told the player base suck it up because your stuck with it so players settled. I suggest SE take a look at the Archetype Summoner from EQ The Magician and The Conjuror reference point.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

In game census is not good representation of a majority since players can have multiple Jobs. The Consensus doesn't tell us the percentage of players that main Summoner. People complain in a variety ways they can leave in game suggestions or vent in their fc chat only a small percentage of people complain on the forums most if they don't like the Job they silently stop playing without any feed back.

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The in game census is generated using data mined by the duty finder. On the basis that people generally stick with 1 or 2 jobs, it's pretty accurate. And it's reasonable to extrapolate this data is representative of organized raiding as well. Simply dismissing is like you are because it runs counter to your beliefs is wrong. The data shows that people are playing the class, which means that for most people, it's fine as is. They may want things to change, but it's not stopping people from playing it. By the way, as someone mentioned, this complaint about the job seems to be localized only to the US.

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The reason Summoner threads pop up on Website Feed Back and Suggestions every 2 weeks and the Dps and General Thread every month is because the Summoner wasn't Beta Tested SE just put a Necromancer/Warlock in the game redressed it as a Summoner and told the player base suck it up because your stuck with it so players settled. I suggest SE take a look at the Archetype Summoner from EQ The Magician and The Conjuror reference point.

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No, forums, especially class forums tend not to be the place to go for meaningful feedback, since people tend to only post when they want the devs to make their character OP. It's why Blizzard (and Mythic) stopped posting in the class forums for their respective games.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Most people who don't want to see the Summoner reworked because it would change the Scholar.

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[Citation needed.] I for one, am perfectly fine with the pet + DoT archetype here.

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The only way to change the Summoner is to split it from the Arcanists and have the Scholar keep their current skill set. The Summoner should get Fire, Ice , Earth and Wind Elemental DoTs, a Stronger Elemental Avatar Pet and Utilities such as Self Buffs, Group Buffs, Pet Buffs and Single Target Buffs. Summoner should be able to cast more spells on the Pet.
Cast - Radiant Plume, Eruption and Vulcan Bursts for Ifrit Pet
Cast - Weight of the Land, Tumult and Bomb Boulder for Titan Pet
Cast- Great Whirlwind, Friction and Razor Plumes

Summoner Pet should get Hard Mod Primal abilities and look like a Hyur Highlander Scaled Primal.

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So, apparently, you want the summoner to render monks, bards, black mages, and dragoons completely moot. Not only do not understand balance, you don't get it the dev would like to see a mixture of classes played, not everyone playing just one.

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Originally Posted by Delily

The in game census is generated using data mined by the duty finder. On the basis that people generally stick with 1 or 2 jobs, it's pretty accurate. Simply dismissing is like you are because it runs counter to your beliefs is wrong. The data shows that people are playing the class, which means that for most people, it's fine as is. They may want things to change, but it's not stopping people from playing it. By the way, as someone mentioned, this complaint about the job seems to be localized only to the US.


No, forums, especially class forums tend not to be the place to go for meaningful feedback, since people tend to only post when they want the devs to make their character OP. It's why Blizzard (and Mythic) stopped posting in the class forums for their respective games.

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Sony Everquest series has already showed that a Final Fantasy themed Summoner,based on Rydia Incarnation of the Summoner, Puppet Master and Scholar can work as well as be balanced with their versions of Summoner(Comjuror) and their take on the PuppetMater(Necromancer) and Scholar(Shaper). So why didn't SE take inspiration from Sony's EQ2 Conjuror for their version of the Final Fantasy XIV Summoner instead of Blizzards WoW Necromancer/Warlock which I feel has a poor man's version of EQ's class system.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Sony Everquest series has already showed that a Final Fantasy themed Summoner,based on Rydia Incarnation of the Summoner, Puppet Master and Scholar can work as well as be balanced with their versions of Summoner(Comjuror) and their take on the PuppetMater(Necromancer) and Scholar(Shaper). So why didn't SE take inspiration from Sony's EQ2 Conjuror for their version of the Final Fantasy XIV Summoner instead of Blizzards WoW Necromancer/Warlock which I feel has a poor man's version of EQ's class system.

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Or you could just play Everquest 2.

Seems like a simple solution. You get the Summoner you dreamed of and we no longer have to deal with you posting the same thing over and over again.

Sounds fair to me.

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Originally Posted by Delily

[Citation needed.] I for one, am perfectly fine with the pet + DoT archetype here.



So, apparently, you want the summoner to render monks, bards, black mages, and dragoons completely moot. Not only do not understand balance, you don't get it the dev would like to see a mixture of classes played, not everyone playing just one.

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Mixuture is different ways to play the same type of role like two types of Burst AoE Casters or two types of party AoE Healers SE has it to where every Job pigeon holed into one role.

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

/unnecessary aggression

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Maybe i quoted the wrong example since this seems like a touchy subject for you... here is another.

"How can you argue your case for vegetarianism when you are enjoying your steak?”

This clearly shows how a person is attacked instead of being addressed for or against his argument.

Which is exactly what she was doing, questioning of why i should be even bothered posting ideas because of her perceived bias that in her mind didn't make me qualified to be taken seriously.She knows she can't stop me from posting so she instead tries to discredit me without addressing 90% of my ideas.I guess even if i make one mistake that just makes her absolutely right every time and i should NEVER be taken seriously again.

Have no clue why you responded to this part of my post, but whatever.Guess you needed to share your opinion on religion.

tldr: She talks about me and not my ideas 90% of the time. Honestly i rather be discussing fun new ways that summoner could be made more like the jobs namesake even if there is no major overhaul.

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

Each class changes very drastically over the course of their journey to 50, blm being one of the first when they get fire 3, then again with ice 3, then again with procs. Summoner gets several things between 40 and 50 that are completely integral to endgame and change a good amount of the normal rotation - contagion, shadow flare, miasma 2, and garuda. you wouldn't think it, but managing contagion changes a lot.

so accept that your perspective is limited, because it is. if you haven't played endgame summoner, you don't have a good perspective on how it compares to the other classes. I don't think it invalidates what you say, but it certainly limits credence.

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I never acclaimed to be a authority on summoner. Read my other posts i used those exact words. However you seem to be convinced that if i post any ideas at all i guess i haven't learned my lesson yet? I do not get what you expect me to do even if i say this.

Also this is why i want experienced people like you to post, so you can share your expertise in constructive positive manner. However most people who do not want change at all just want to be cynical about every idea and try to stop people from even wanting to talk about them at all by mentally tiring them out with nonsense that has nothing to do with the meat and potatoes of their ideas, or even supplementing their own. This is why i won't respond to every person from now and only respond to those who put a decent amount of effort into their explanations like you have.You have my respect even if i do not always agree with you or vice versa.

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

1. you missed the point about MMO balance which is the heart of that argument, being accepted among a wide range of games from computer games to dungeons and dragons. Pets being the main dmg of the class instead of supplemental is problematic from a design perspective and a balance perspective. also the developers said they don't want that.

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How can i address an assumption that has no substantial evidence to back it up. You just make a statement and i am suppose to go...OH THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING. IT IS WIDELY ACCEPTED FROM A BUNCH OF UNKNOWN SOURCES THAT I CANNOT LOOK UP OR ARGUE AGAINST.FINE! YOU OBVIOUSLY ARE PSYCHIC AND CAN READ MINDS. I'll JUST TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT.

Just because many different mmo's use a certain design does not mean you are automatically correct, it is possible that even developers have their own bias and simply didn't want to do the extra work and simply went the safe and boring route as Akiza explained.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Sony Everquest series has already showed that a Final Fantasy themed Summoner,based on Rydia Incarnation of the Summoner, Puppet Master and Scholar can work as well as be balanced with their versions of Summoner(Comjuror) and their take on the PuppetMater(Necromancer) and Scholar(Shaper). So why didn't SE take inspiration from Sony's EQ2 Conjuror for their version of the Final Fantasy XIV Summoner instead of Blizzards WoW Necromancer/Warlock which I feel has a poor man's version of EQ's class system.

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There are other ways to make pet systems that work in other games, FFXIV is basically just another version of wow when it comes to a lot of gameplay design aspects. Many mmo's these days are in fact just like WoW, yet other mmo's use more traditional pet based systems that rely more on pets and summoning based gameplay.

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

3. it is the grinding for the pet that becomes a problem, and that's what I was referring to because you'd have to balance out the minimum grinded stats your pets have (unless it is trivial and they still only do 1/4 dmg whether maxed or min'd. then there would really be no point to do it). If it was significant and it did a good portion of the summoner's damage, then it would def have to be filtered out in dungeons because a no-grind ifrit would screw the team on dps checks. changing out abilities from a range of potentials i'm okay with (really doubt it will happen but Its a fun suggestion), but making it done in a way that someone can get to level 50 without those abilities could potentially be very bad exacerbated by the more damage the pet would deal as a percentage of the summoners total damage (again, unless the abilites were trivial, and thus why bother with complicating up a system that doesn't end up doing anything different)

balance is a concern from both a design and a player standpoint. if they have to change everything about the pet every time the ilvl goes up in the final dungeon, that's just unnecessary strain on the development team that will change the flow of content or the profitability of the game (if they have to hire more workers simply to balance out new content because of a ridiculously designed pet). your mountain analogy is bad because climbing is exercise, so difficulty is the desire. A better analogy would be the front door of your house not opening very well because you wanted it to look cool. yeah, sometimes I can't get through it, and other times it will be easy, but ultimately if a different paint/material had been used, any difficulty could be avoided.

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Why would summoners go into their fates ungrinded? I guess your assuming the worst possible scenario, even though there is a way for players to check what level their summoner is..and according to ANOTHER one of my ideas you wouldn't really need to grind at all just have the summon at the same level as the player and use ITEM level to help further level it up. Therefore players will always know what level the summon is. Maybe the skills can be on a linear path and the different roles would be for the different pets. Therefore everyone will know what level their pets are and know what they are capable of when they use certain ones.

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

4. Lore should not limit gameplay, but I think story matters. if there is a reason teleportation is restricted that is story related, i'm excited to find it. that sort of thing can be sooooo interesting, just wiping it out would be sad for me as someone who enjoys the story in the games he plays (actually why I have stayed with this MMO as opposed to any other I have played). I can tell you spoilers about this if you would like, but there is some cool stuff having to do with it.

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I highly doubt it would ruin your enjoyment, especially since SE is pretty good for giving good reasons for any lore/story changes they would make. Best case scenario it would be used as part of the mystery and therefore it will not be ruined for you. Another piece of the puzzle.

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

5. I will refer back to point 1. Its not that i'm afraid of change, it is that some of your suggestions would create more issues than it could help. the warrior of light being the person not the egi is a big sticking point in game design across media (plural of medium). If it were just my experience, I would say so. But there are webcomics devoted to this sort of thing. If players are helpless or unable to be effective without their summon or their transformation spell (50% of summoner damage is scholar damage), or mythical sword then they have very little power themselves and become unnecessary to the story. if anyone can pick up the same thing and be just as effective (if the summoner's pet did all the dmg and the summoner was just healing/protecting it), then it loses meaning that I, Magus Sinspotter, have finally beaten Bahamut. sorry buddy, but little timmy the orphan could have done it too if you had just given him the relic weapon you have been powering up for ages and that holds all your power. you're a horrible person for not letting timmy do it because he would have found a home, and never wanted for munny again. joke and an exaggeration, but that's why characters need to have their own power and not have it wrapped up in external things. to counter the argument taking the example and applying it to endgame weaponry, a blm, pld, war can make do with any weapon and still have access to all their powers. a summoner without his enhanced primal does not, thus the analogy to the mystic weapon

If summons worked like nukes, or utility spells, I don't have a problem with that suggestion in the slightest.

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How do i argue against an opinion? I highly doubt SE will go...

"Well SOME people think they didn't personally accomplish anything if the buttons the player pushes do not show the right animations that show they directly attack the monster instead of the pet....so SCRAP THAT IDEA."

You just have romanticized vision of what the job should be...which is actually something that makes the game more fun for you. I get it i think the same way about my ideas. However what would make the game more fun for me is having powerful creatures at my command that i strategically use during battle with a combination of my own abilities and guile. In a way it's no different than they way you think just from the opposite side.

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Originally Posted by Razard

Or you could just play Everquest 2.

Seems like a simple solution. You get the Summoner you dreamed of and we no longer have to deal with you posting the same thing over and over again.

Sounds fair to me.

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I hate this. The whole "if you don't like it leave/ignore it" arguement. She enjoys FFXIV and many different aspects of it, she is a fan. She also probably got her fill of everquests content before migrating here. Why would it be wrong for her to enjoy her favorite class the way she wants in her new favorite game? You sound pretty mean and ignorant.

You know what is a simple solution for you to avoid getting upset at her posts? Ignore them and do something else!

Sounds fair to me.
/irony

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Balance

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/a...7&d=1413527009
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/a...8&d=1413527028

Also note that smn went from 16% to 21% says people are liking the job, not hating it.

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It doesn't say they are liking this job moreso they are picking one of two of the most powerful Magic DPS in the game for duty finder parties are evenly divided into categories.Does this chart represent end game content? Even if it does i bet that even if i wanted to bring rogue to a endgame raid they would prob. tell me to level up or force me to use a class i didn't want to use(like WHM) in order for me to participate. I don't really enjoy playing healing classes that much however i still register with duty finder a lot with my WHM because it gets me parties easier. So there thats.

I wonder if they remade the same chart a month from now after the rogue update, i guess you would say that since 90% of classes using duty finder are rogue that they must really like it and not simply leveling up another job so they're cross abilities are not gimped.(as why many people would level up alternate jobs that they may not even want to play.)

Even though rogue IS pretty sweet. >=D

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

You just have romanticized vision of what the job should be...which is actually something that makes the game more fun for you. I get it i think the same way about my ideas. However what would make the game more fun for me is having powerful creatures at my command that i strategically use during battle with a combination of my own abilities and guile. In a way it's no different than they way you think just from the opposite side.

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Also, not my opinion about religion, my opinion was about intelligent design as science. it is not by all measures. I don't like misinformation. The idea that there is even a debate on climate change is laughable but it happens because of people deliberately misinforming people.... but again, digression

No, i wouldn't get my enjoyment ruined by teleportation being involved

People used to queues for dungeons as tanks then switch to DPS to get around the queues, registering for a duty without a max level pet is certainly something that can happen especially if pet progression is uncoupled from class progression. but it is just another part to balance making sure summoners aren't too weak with an ungrinded pet that they cannot function, or too strong with a maxed out pet that no other class is desired for content. I'm sure this idea could be implemented, but it seems like it would be clunky. I do not want to see specializing in a pet either as that is another way to exclude unoptimal setups from progression. Referring to the community back when the game was fresh 2.0 BLMs were in high demand for speedruns and in 0 demand for progression content and were unable to find a group. it was almost comical seeing the demand for players to switch back and forth between those two classes if someone primaried BLM, the reverse was not the case (primary summoners did not get pressured to switch to BLM for speedrun content).

Now to the less fun part - your postings about wanting something the developers have constantly said no to is, by her/his (I can never tell over the internet) context, the draw for her remarks. You seem to also have the same attitude towards balance as Akiza (correct me if i'm wrong), 'let the developers work it out.' So I would again say your analogy is inaccurate because developers have already ruled on some of the issues you're raising and you do not want to abide by it. Merits of that one way or another aside, that's the opposition you're getting.

I have brought up a multitude of examples as to how a pet is problematic, but go ahead and ignore those too. Pet progression is problematic as it becomes more and more a part of the character's effectiveness - I have explained this in several different ways using several different examples that I don't wanna retype.


BTW, great strawman - completely ignored the idea for the fun little story i wanted to type. AI vs AI removes the player from the game unless the character is directly controlling that AI. Then the person is playing an extra character, or being a healer/support to their pet (healers can put out some damage sometimes). two problems come up. first, the AI would need to be very responsive, have queuing commands and be able to be quickly and easily micromanaged to keep it effective if it is a large portion of the character's damage as you have suggested. While you have suggested some ways around that, the responsiveness is not there in the current system required for this sort of play (this is where experience micromanaging your pet would have been handy as you would know how long it takes for a pet to execute a commanded action such as whispering dawn or contagion). As someone who isn't very far in the endgame myself, every second counts when doing progression content. The only way to fix that would be to have the pet be like it is now just with more attack power because most of its damage comes from repeated abilities rather than cooldowns. Endgame pets doing 200+ dps while the summoner and scholar are racing each other to see who can out damage the other. Summoner becomes the easiest class to do well in and would be rather boring IMO

i'm leaving the 2nd problem off because i'm tired of this tonight.

EDIT: Actually the Item level thing you said was your idea was actually how the system works now... unless you wanted some different progression

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

TL;DR

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You obviously missed the facetious nature of my post. Akiza is rather notorious around these parts, for going on and on and on about this particular subject.

I was just suggesting that maybe she would be happier seeking an MMO that has a class more to her liking, rather than annoy people by bringing up her opinions at any opportunity for over a year when the Devs have made it clear that it's not changing it. As the old saying goes. "Hope in one hand, poop in another. See which fills up first."

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

Also, not my opinion about religion, my opinion was about intelligent design as science. it is not by all measures. I don't like misinformation. The idea that there is even a debate on climate change is laughable but it happens because of people deliberately misinforming people.... but again, digression

No, i wouldn't get my enjoyment ruined by teleportation being involved

People used to queues for dungeons as tanks then switch to DPS to get around the queues, registering for a duty without a max level pet is certainly something that can happen especially if pet progression is uncoupled from class progression. but it is just another part to balance making sure summoners aren't too weak with an ungrinded pet that they cannot function, or too strong with a maxed out pet that no other class is desired for content. I'm sure this idea could be implemented, but it seems like it would be clunky. I do not want to see specializing in a pet either as that is another way to exclude unoptimal setups from progression. Referring to the community back when the game was fresh 2.0 BLMs were in high demand for speedruns and in 0 demand for progression content and were unable to find a group. it was almost comical seeing the demand for players to switch back and forth between those two classes if someone primaried BLM, the reverse was not the case (primary summoners did not get pressured to switch to BLM for speedrun content).

Now to the less fun part - your postings about wanting something the developers have constantly said no to is, by her/his (I can never tell over the internet) context, the draw for her remarks. You seem to also have the same attitude towards balance as Akiza (correct me if i'm wrong), 'let the developers work it out.' So I would again say your analogy is inaccurate because developers have already ruled on some of the issues you're raising and you do not want to abide by it. Merits of that one way or another aside, that's the opposition you're getting.

I have brought up a multitude of examples as to how a pet is problematic, but go ahead and ignore those too. Pet progression is problematic as it becomes more and more a part of the character's effectiveness - I have explained this in several different ways using several different examples that I don't wanna retype.


BTW, great strawman - completely ignored the idea for the fun little story i wanted to type. AI vs AI removes the player from the game unless the character is directly controlling that AI. Then the person is playing an extra character, or being a healer/support to their pet (healers can put out some damage sometimes). two problems come up. first, the AI would need to be very responsive, have queuing commands and be able to be quickly and easily micromanaged to keep it effective if it is a large portion of the character's damage as you have suggested. While you have suggested some ways around that, the responsiveness is not there in the current system required for this sort of play (this is where experience micromanaging your pet would have been handy as you would know how long it takes for a pet to execute a commanded action such as whispering dawn or contagion). As someone who isn't very far in the endgame myself, every second counts when doing progression content. The only way to fix that would be to have the pet be like it is now just with more attack power because most of its damage comes from repeated abilities rather than cooldowns. Endgame pets doing 200+ dps while the summoner and scholar are racing each other to see who can out damage the other. Summoner becomes the easiest class to do well in and would be rather boring IMO

i'm leaving the 2nd problem off because i'm tired of this tonight.

EDIT: Actually the Item level thing you said was your idea was actually how the system works now... unless you wanted some different progression

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I do not address every single point because the points you sometimes had made were more statements than explanations. You keep saying stuff like. WELL EVERYONE KNOWS HOW MMO'S DO THINGS A CERTAIN WAY ITS SO OBVIOUS!

Just like you...if i addressed every single point or assumption people made i would be here all night, and i am also tired.
You honestly think something like "Its too much work,effort,something might fail,not worth the effort." are anything more than just simple opinions? Who cares what the developers current stance on the issues is. I am talking about ideas for future updates not explanations of why they didn't have enough time while rehauling the entire game on a time limit that they couldn't do anything more than the bare minimum for almost everything while still be accepted by the player base.

Like when they decided FFXIV needed a overhaul due to their failing project, for similar motivations of profit they will overhaul or use some gimmick or idea in the future like adding primals in or making a class everyone was clamoring for(FFXI:blue mage,geomancer,Gun Class(corsair),etc.) and completely go back on what they have said previously. It has happened in the past with this company and it will almost definitely happen again when they need to boost their subscription base again. Which is why expansions usually offer new level caps/abilities and new jobs to play as. So they can find ways for players to start playing again.

What straw man? That story you wrote about what the game should feel like is an opinion on how you see it. Nothing more. So i called it out as such. Everyone has their own idea on how the game should be run or played. Its why they offer many different options in attempt to please as many people as possible.I understand the whole "I want to feel heroic" thing, however i do not see primals or summons as a tool to be used, i see them as my partners and an extension of my power. I worked to earn that power and i mastered the button rotation pressing properly like everyone else!=P I can still feel like my summoner won even if my guy is not directly delivering the finishing blow. Just like my WHM wouldn't be directly delivering the finishing blow. Its a team effort no matter what job you play as. You can have whatever you want equipped onto summoner and still use all his abilities. So yeah.

Other mmo's didn't have a problem making pets jobs despite what you say about responsiveness so....okay? Even if your pet did take a second to use its abilities SMN is still doing damage anyways with DOT's on the side. Why would it matter that much at all if you did it in a different way, if it takes slightly longer than just increase the potency slightly to offset any lag in comparison to other jobs.You may say that's unnecessarily complicated to balance but in practice it would just be a button press like anything else on the players end. Just have your summons do burst damage and then have DOT effects like burn,freeze,suffocate,etc. on top of it and make it a double ability that mixes both old and new.Your pet will do burst damage and add a de-buff and DOT ontop of it. Each ability would be powerful so it would feel worth even if it did take a second or 2 longer than others. That's why cool downs for pet abilities would be longer than other class abilities.It will be only overpowered if you could keep casting it over and over again without a decent delay. I would not feel a disconnect with my pet because its AI vs AI that's the whole appeal of the pet class in the first place since i have a minion i can command and control and do damage in a unique way over other classes.What you find that takes you out of it, i find that it sucks me in.

I also happen to enjoy pet classes in games like diablo and play RTS's as a result of this personal preference.Maybe i have a god complex? =P

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Originally Posted by Razard

You obviously missed the facetious nature of my post. Akiza is rather notorious around these parts, for going on and on and on about this particular subject.

I was just suggesting that maybe she would be happier seeking an MMO that has a class more to her liking, rather than annoy people by bringing up her opinions at any opportunity for over a year when the Devs have made it clear that it's not changing it. As the old saying goes. "Hope in one hand, poop in another. See which fills up first."

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Facetious huh? I did not find your "joke" or your "flippant" nature very amusing. I also heard countless people say something similar and it absolutely was more of a "screw those types of people" post. Who care's if anyone finds her annoying. Their loss if they waste time posting in attempt to convince her to stop.She will continue trucking on making completely legitimate by-the-rules posts. Outside the confines of the internet i have used this following philosophy, sometimes this works on the web too but i found extreme amount of success in this method in my real life that i have seen others constantly fail at. Do not offer advice unless it was asked for. Now it isn't an absolute rule, but when i use this rule in real life people are more appreciative that i am not drawing attention to their mistakes or failed results and instead being a happy go lucky guy towards them regardless of the situation that people feel compelled to correct.

Let her worry about her own happiness.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

A lot of text... It doesn't say they are liking this job moreso they are picking one of two of the most powerful Magic DPS in the game for duty finder parties are evenly divided into categories.Does this chart represent end game content? Even if it does i bet that even if i wanted to bring rogue to a endgame raid they would prob. tell me to level up or force me to use a class i didn't want to use(like WHM) in order for me to participate. I don't really enjoy playing healing classes that much however i still register with duty finder a lot with my WHM because it gets me parties easier. So there thats.

I wonder if they remade the same chart a month from now after the rogue update, i guess you would say that since 90% of classes using duty finder are rogue that they must really like it and not simply leveling up another job so they're cross abilities are not gimped.(as why many people would level up alternate jobs that they may not even want to play.)

Even though rogue IS pretty sweet. >=D

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You are using a lot of if's while the chart is just the facts. End game content still requires you to use DF and those are an even break down of all 5 dps jobs, not tanks or healers. 1/5 of players who use dps play as SMN so yea that's 1/5 of the dps player population who enjoy playing Summoner, Egi/DoTs and all. Summoner needs minor changes, not an overhaul.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

You are using a lot of if's while the chart is just the facts. End game content still requires you to use DF and those are an even break down of all 5 dps jobs, not tanks or healers. 1/5 of players who use dps play as SMN so yea that's 1/5 of the dps player population who enjoy playing Summoner, Egi/DoTs and all. Summoner needs minor changes, not an overhaul.

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Lets say you are right. Should i assume that all of those players wouldn't be supportive of changes to the jobs? I really don't understand what stance that you are trying to take other than "lol obviously nothing is wrong with summoner cause all these people are playing!". Just because a job isn't broken doesn't mean people wouldn't enjoy changes(however big or small) to the job to make it more in line of what come to expect of summoners of past final fantasy's. I bet many of them wouldn't even question and totally think it would be awesome if better pets were to be added in next patch. Also how do you know what % of those players are endgame players among that 21%.You simply do not. Your logic is flawed. I have reasonable doubts because we know for a fact that not all of them are 50, we know for a fact that some only level for cross class abilities. We know for a fact that sometimes you have to switch to a opening in a raid otherwise you won't be able to play with your friends/FC mates. These things happen, the % of those people of that 21% is unknowable.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

I do not address every single point because the points you sometimes had made were more statements than explanations. You keep saying stuff like. WELL EVERYONE KNOWS HOW MMO'S DO THINGS A CERTAIN WAY ITS SO OBVIOUS!

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again... this is where endgame experience comes in. that 1 second response time is huge especially when getting out of the way of divebombs and other mechanics. pet dies, summoner dps screwed. That's why pets are limited in the amount of damage they do. high dmg mechanics make it necessary.

I'm about done with you, cause this is the 3rd time explaining it

BTW, never made this statement without any further explanation.... but you can go ahead and keep characterizing it like that. I have tried to engage you constructively and it is no longer worth the effort. if you wanna stop stop the sophistry for a minute then maybe you'll be worth responding to

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

again... this is where endgame experience comes in. that 1 second response time is huge especially when getting out of the way of divebombs and other mechanics. pet dies, summoner dps screwed. That's why pets are limited in the amount of damage they do. high dmg mechanics make it necessary.

I'm about done with you, cause this is the 3rd time explaining it

BTW, never made this statement without any further explanation.... but you can go ahead and keep characterizing it like that. I have tried to engage you constructively and it is no longer worth the effort. if you wanna stop stop the sophistry for a minute then maybe you'll be worth responding to

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Whatever makes you feel better man, half of your arguments even when you do try to explain make no sense to me. I am constantly asking myself...how does he even come to such conclusions?If i asked for citations on his statements would he able to produce?How does he know what other people think?He doesn't. This happens Over and over again.

Its pretentious to think that once you open your mouth, that you are absolutely right and that if i don't get it the first time you should repeat the same exact points over and over again as that makes them more true. Such as talking about MMO "balance" or that i do not know mmo mechanics but you never actually explain why.The closest you come was talking about how summoners needed to manage contagion....and even that was just a quick little footnote of why you are right instead of explaining a scenario or putting any effort in.

I already refuted these arguments over and over again to the best of my ability by offering ideas on how to get around certain problems you or other people would confront me with. I may not even be right half the time but at least i try to post ideas and refine them. You just keep repeating yourself on the same points and i end doing the same because i do not understand where you get your information from. You just make a lot bold statements about balance, or how i clearly don't know how mmo mechanics work.

It's all in the fact that you don't produce any alternative ideas, the most you done is agree with 1 or 2 of them or said how it MIGHT be possible. However you very rarely try to figure out how things could change. Saying how it always wasn't worth it, or its too "complicated". Very seldomly do you come close to making complete sense and whenever you do i agree with you or don't respond since i never had a problem with everything you said just the other ignorant parts of your post. You'd be surprised how often i winded up agreeing with you, but not saying it. I was only focused on defending myself since you think that you are right about everything.

It's fine, please stop. I won't mind you always seem aggressive yourself and are always talking down to me like you trying to teach me why i am wrong instead of objectively discussing it more often than not. Trying to get me to "realize" that i have a limited perspective ...even though i never denied that there a lot of things i may not know i just wanted to use the experience of others to make ideas better...but when is the last time you really even came up with an idea of your own that would have been more realistic so you can guide me on these mechanics you claim to know better than me.Instead you just simply try to explain why i am wrong without breaking anything down when it comes to actual combat scenarios or dungeons or even use your LIMITED knowledge of end game raids you claimed to have.You talk down to me for some arrogant reason. You are done with me indeed. =/

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

snip

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check your own bias before the transference. I don't like discounting people but you've got a tiny persecution complex

BTW, eq 2 conjuror, pet issues. D3, pet issues, DND pet issues. when it comes to advanced content, it spans games when pets are the main damage of the class. either you do too far as the 3.0/3.5 dnd did and they kill everything, or you go to short, and you can't do endgame in D3

Yes

It's a little goofy and In new content it's not holding up very well.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

snip.

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LOL, okay man. You continue to assume things if it helps you win arguments. How about first you get ACN to 50 and actually play some end game? Also we aren't against minor changes to improve the job, just the radical bulldozer change to make the job play just like FFXI or what other game the certain people want other than FFXIV's version. SMN is a DoT Caster with Egi pet, that's it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RissotoMissoto

Yes

It's a little goofy and In new content it's not holding up very well.

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Summoner's issues with new content is the fact that they constantly run low on MP. They need lower MP costs.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Facetious huh? I did not find your "joke" or your "flippant" nature very amusing.

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Good thing I'm not here to amuse you, isn't it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

TL:DR

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So our free speech ends where her feelings begin, is that it? This particular subject has grown so toxic that the General Discussion board will not touch it. All because people like her, especially her, will not leave it alone. And people do get sick of repeating the same responses over and over when these threads pop up.

Here's some advice for you. There is no right way for dealing with people. Different strokes and all that. Some people are more receptive to help than others. It's not about drawing attention to their mistakes, if they are worried about that then they have bigger issues, it's about talking to each other and helping each other improve. Anyway our personal Philosophy on the matter is irrelevant because none of this excuses people from beating a dead horse though, which is what Akiza does. She is beyond help.

It just seems there is this contingent of players that seem to disregard reality because of how something feels. The bottom line is that this whole Summoner problem is a non issue. People decided to make a mountain out of a molehill because it's not how they "feel" a Summoner "should" be. Regardless of the inconsistent nature of the Summoner class within Final Fantasy. And often times the suggestions people make a wholly unacceptable and would Break the game to the point or making other DPS irrelevant or make Summoner the utter trash that they spent most of their lifetime in FFXI as.

The suggestion that she seek enjoyment elsewhere isn't an unreasonable one. Maybe she will find happiness elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Summoner's issues with new content is the fact that they constantly run low on MP. They need lower MP costs.

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That or Aetherflow either restoring a greater precentage or being on a shorter cd.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

That or Aetherflow either restoring a greater precentage or being on a shorter cd.

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Maybe they'll add a trait in 3.0 that increases it for Summoner since Scholar doesn't really need it that much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Maybe they'll add a trait in 3.0 that increases it for Summoner since Scholar doesn't really need it that much.

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The other interesting idea I've been mulling over was swapping gear up so that instead of pairing Summoner with Black Mage for left side it was paired with Scholar. Just add Int to that gear similarly to how pre 2.4 gear is for Monk and Ninja. The added Pie would help to reduce mp issues on the Summoner's side, and while the extra Int would certainly benefit Scholar I don't feel it would unbalance it.

SE kept the Final Fantasy theme of the Ninja even though it's broken in this game while they just did the bare bones with the Summoner which resulted in the butchering of an iconic job in the name of balance.

The Summoner in this game is a WoW themed Warlock dressed up in Summoner gear at least if SE was going to copy and paste a pet class they should've used the Everquest Magician or Conjuror. I don't know why any company would draw from WoW since WoW is a game that a lot of people love to hate which Final Fantasy XIV is endangered of becoming just Call of Duty and all the clones which are failing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akiza

SE kept the Final Fantasy theme of the Ninja even though it's broken in this game while they just did the bare bones with the Summoner which resulted in the butchering of an iconic job in the name of balance.

The Summoner in this game is a WoW themed Warlock dressed up in Summoner gear at least if SE was going to copy and paste a pet class they should've used the Everquest Magician or Conjuror. I don't know why any company would draw from WoW since WoW is a game that a lot of people love to hate which Final Fantasy XIV is endangered of becoming just Call of Duty and all the clones which are failing.

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What are you on about? Throw is the "iconic" Ninja skill, and we don't have it. EQ has many more skill options than SE wants to add FFXIV. It's actually aimed at a more causal playerbase than other MMO's, you know that right?

Furthermore each new CoD has pretty much outsold the last several fold. I don't like them, but that doesn't change that fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Maybe they'll add a trait in 3.0 that increases it for Summoner since Scholar doesn't really need it that much.

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Yay! Constructive discussion :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The Summoner in this game is a WoW themed Warlock dressed up in Summoner gear at least if SE was going to copy and paste a pet class they should've used the Everquest Magician or Conjuror. I don't know why any company would draw from WoW since WoW is a game that a lot of people love to hate which Final Fantasy XIV is endangered of becoming just Call of Duty and all the clones which are failing.

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For a game that people "love to hate" it has 7.4 million subscribers. For a game that is almost a decade old, that's pretty good. The reason FFXIV drew a lot from WoW is simple: It works. Claiming people "love to hate it" is nothing more than confirmation bias. Reading commentary on WoW on forums for other MMOs will of course give you that belief, since those people who aren't playing WoW probably don't like it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akiza

SE kept the Final Fantasy theme of the Ninja even though it's broken in this game while they just did the bare bones with the Summoner which resulted in the butchering of an iconic job in the name of balance.

The Summoner in this game is a WoW themed Warlock dressed up in Summoner gear at least if SE was going to copy and paste a pet class they should've used the Everquest Magician or Conjuror. I don't know why any company would draw from WoW since WoW is a game that a lot of people love to hate which Final Fantasy XIV is endangered of becoming just Call of Duty and all the clones which are failing.

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before anything else, please explain how ninja is broken.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Maybe they'll add a trait in 3.0 that increases it for Summoner since Scholar doesn't really need it that much.

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That actually would help a little in extended encounter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

before anything else, please explain how ninja is broken.

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He/she won't. Akiza just goes with what whatever he/she reads and deems that as fact. Remember, he/she thought Summoner single target damage was terrible when we had access to Thunder but then later on got upset that they removed for Blizzard 2. He/she never makes up their his/her mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delily

For a game that people "love to hate" it has 7.4 million subscribers. For a game that is almost a decade old, that's pretty good. The reason FFXIV drew a lot from WoW is simple: It works. Claiming people "love to hate it" is nothing more than confirmation bias. Reading commentary on WoW on forums for other MMOs will of course give you that belief, since those people who aren't playing WoW probably don't like it.

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The reason WoW has 7.4 million subscribers is because they decided to overhaul their class system, character models and graphics. WoW also had other cosmetic updates and redesigned their character models during expansion. Also players tend to live in WoW as opposed to other MMORPGS. The one thing Blizzard does with WoW that sets it in another league compared to it's many WoW clones is constant polishing and tweaking of the game. WoW is a game where they would overhaul one class if it would draw more people in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dwill

That actually would help a little in extended encounter.



He/she won't. Akiza just goes with what whatever he/she reads and deems that as fact. Remember, he/she thought Summoner single target damage was terrible when we had access to Thunder but then later on got upset that they removed for Blizzard 2. He/she never makes up their his/her mind.

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but smn ST dmg was bad when we had thunder :v (in akizas hands) . honestly, i dont expect an answer. i expect "iconic image to x but smn got chicken nuggets".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The reason WoW has 7.4 million subscribers is because they decided to overhaul their class system, character models and graphics. WoW also had other cosmetic updates and redesigned their character models during expansion. Also players tend to live in WoW as opposed to other MMORPGS. The one thing Blizzard does with WoW that sets it in another league compared to it's many WoW clones is constant polishing and tweaking of the game. WoW is a game where they would overhaul one class if it would draw more people in.

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Considering the amount of work that went into bring FFXIV up to version 2.0 from 1.X, as well as the work that goes into each patch, Square is aiming to do the same. However, WoW has never really overhauled their class system. They have refined it, but the specs all are very similar to day one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The reason WoW has 7.4 million subscribers is because they decided to overhaul their class system, character models and graphics. WoW also had other cosmetic updates and redesigned their character models during expansion. Also players tend to live in WoW as opposed to other MMORPGS. The one thing Blizzard does with WoW that sets it in another league compared to it's many WoW clones is constant polishing and tweaking of the game. WoW is a game where they would overhaul one class if it would draw more people in.

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Well, at least you just showed there isn't only Final Fantasy XIV that you haven't a clue about.

I am okay with the core gameplay. I am very dissapointed with the visuals for my summoners and to a degree their abilties. Honestly i dont even realize they are there most of the time. I just feel like a "blackmage light"

So a visual upgrade to my pets and their abilties would really go along way to make me feel like a summoner, I'll be honest even making the visuals of my spell effects to look like i am dropping summoned creatures onto/into monsters type of effects would really make me feel alot more like a summoner.

Ninja has the speed of a Monk and hit like a Dragoon because they can weaken opponents with DoT status effects and Direct Bursts Damage like Dragoon's. That's the equivalent of combing the Arcanists and Black Mage together.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MMRV

I am okay with the core gameplay. I am very dissapointed with the visuals for my summoners and to a degree their abilties. Honestly i dont even realize they are there most of the time. I just feel like a "blackmage light"

So a visual upgrade to my pets and their abilties would really go along way to make me feel like a summoner, I'll be honest even making the visuals of my spell effects to look like i am dropping summoned creatures onto/into monsters type of effects would really make me feel alot more like a summoner.

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Like Fester animation changing to Summon Bomb? Considering Fester is a SMN job skill it would actually make more sense, but bombs are voidsent though...
You do summon stuff with Bio, Bio II and Virus, you summon microscopic monsters lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MMRV

I am okay with the core gameplay. I am very dissapointed with the visuals for my summoners and to a degree their abilties. Honestly i dont even realize they are there most of the time. I just feel like a "blackmage light"

So a visual upgrade to my pets and their abilties would really go along way to make me feel like a summoner, I'll be honest even making the visuals of my spell effects to look like i am dropping summoned creatures onto/into monsters type of effects would really make me feel alot more like a summoner.

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The Summoner is Black Mage light. SE looked at WoW then looked at the Black Mage and took the Poisoning line of spells form the Black Mage gave it a Weak Pet and called it a Summoner and that's why Summoner is half a Job.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Ninja has the speed of a Monk and hit like a Dragoon because they can weaken opponents with DoT status effects and Direct Bursts Damage like Dragoon's. That's the equivalent of combing the Arcanists and Black Mage together.

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well, at least they will have great hair. ninja has two dots and a slash debuff, just like drg and mnk. they also have trick attack to boost all dps for 10 seconds. thier burst damage is completely dependant on mudras, so if you screw up and hit one twice, no burst.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dragonfire8974

BTW, eq 2 conjuror, pet issues. D3, pet issues, DND pet issues. when it comes to advanced content, it spans games when pets are the main damage of the class. either you do too far as the 3.0/3.5 dnd did and they kill everything, or you go to short, and you can't do endgame in D3

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Edit: If some of the spacing seems weird to you it's because it got all jacked up when i pasted from where i wrote it =/.

First i want to discuss Diablo 3's pet problems and how they stem from 3 problems.Then move on to discuss my main idea for summoner.Sorry in advance if this too long or i sometimes repeat myself. I am in essay mode now >=D.

1.Developers admitted that they just simply forgot to address these issues sooner, not that they are hard to solve.
2.Pets in diablo 3 are mostly automatic creatures that have limited AI and more often than not fight hordes of enemies at
once that limits their AI even further.
3. Pets always had survivability on par with players, however players can easily move out of range or dodge abilities like
lava,acid,spinning lasers,etc. so even though the player can survive for a while, they still have potions and the ability to
not take sustained damage. Barbarian had similar problems when inferno difficulty was first introduced due to the fact that they couldn't even get near the monsters half the time why every other class....even monks had alternatives than just straight up melee combat.

They planned to address these issues by increasing pets toughness here is a quote straight from the developer:

"Pets should derive their Toughness from yours, and if you skip out on it, your pets’ survivability should be noticeably lower as a result. On the flip side, they should be noticeably tougher if you've increased your own Toughness. You shouldn't skimp on Toughness just because you have pets."

Toughness encompasses all the different defense stats combined...like defense,resist all elements,dodge rate,etc. Players
will have to focus their gear to increase pet survivability so pets can do their damage properly against enemies but at the
same time players will have to depend on them more. Toughness increase will more than likely just be a general increase for pets that make them more resistant to everything rather than just mimicking your stats. So in the end depending on gear and due to the fact that each class has many abilities you could switch between. You could end up using your witch doctor abilities that do more direct damage or gimp your damage but rely on your powerful pets that can actually survive now to do their damage.

Translating this to FFXIV summoner, you can increase your pet damage and focus on that, or you can make your DOT's more powerful and gimp your pets attack. Either way you are still a damage dealer, and you will still have access to both sets of abilities. However you would need to choose which way you wanted to play the game rather than being forced into one singular role. Pet jobs i played that focused on pets usually ended being excellent solo jobs, but then relied more heavily on their own innate abilities during end game and using pets to kite/distract and take the role of a utility job more often than not and provide healing/buffs. Like how in EQ2 Necromancers can heal but usually end up lending themselves to a more DPS role despite their potential utility.

In FFXI for the longest time summoner was a poor man's whm due to summoners vast MP pool and the gain of many healing abilities through WHM sub job. Didn't change the fact though that at higher levels summoner could do decent damage and still heal through sub jobs, especially when they received their ward abilities.

Scholar in FFXIV can use carby heals with embrace and make a macro with Physick to increase potency of healing potential but still have other DOT abilities/debuffs at their command but are too busy healing/utility to use them...while summoners are DEBUFF/DOT damage focused and end up having nothing else aside from just that.

In the end EQ2 necromancer has both possibilities but people more often than not fall in to dps .Necromancers had the unique flavor of having spells like "blood cloud" and "tap life" that drained life from enemies then could turn around and use spell "transfer life" to take its own health and heal players with it.The spells fit the jobs style/lore and it added utility to a pet/dps job.The also had another necromancer spell that fit the flavor of the job perfectly called "sacrifical heart" where they could summon a item into players inventory where players would use the heart at their own convenience to restore power from their very own health. While i do not suggest making FFXIV summoners to summon items players inventory i do suggest having a unique view on the whole prospect of summoning things.

While in FFXIV arcanist ends up having to choose between the 2 roles through the use of jobs.The problem lies is that you have to choose between them as job roles that you have to devote yourself to rather than easily switching between. Having versatility for one job wouldn't be broken because of the fact that you can only do so much at once in the fast paced combat of FFXIV. Your healer would need to heal warriors like crazy to keep them alive, where paladin's are solid and require much less managing. Summoners having the ability to heal or use utility along with damage wouldn't be overpowered since summoners would be filling a hole in the parties makeup everytime the main healer(s) need to focus on other spells and summoners could focus on what was missing.Such as rezzing people with new pet ability maybe instead of allowing them to access it as a cross class skill.

This will make players use a timer up for an ability limiting damage from pets in favor of utility. WHM/SCH would continue
to heal while summoner would throw up AOE stoneskin through titan buff because WHM couldn't cast it without getting massive hate and summoners pets would be ideal if the hate was always transferred to them for all pet based abilities. Introducing buffs like enfire/enblizzard through other pets that will be casted upon players so even if pet dies summoner wouldn't lose utility/damage since buff is already on and you would more than likely have dot's already up. Not saying dot's should be removed but the damage should probably be nerfed to prevent overpowering them.

I think having the use of different special abilities wouldn't be a bad idea if we could guarantee that summoner can treat
them like any other spell and use them at any time. So if you wanted to use enkindle your pet would automatically appear when you casted the spell. Give summoners a passive ability called "auto-summon" that will have increase mana costs for summoning the pet this way by combining the summoning process with their spells without increasing the casting time but it will always guarantee you have the right pet out at the right time without missing a beat. Allowing high level summoners switch between different pets in less than 10 seconds and then whatever pet they wanted to keep out they would simply cast last in order to not waste mana, and while other pets would be out using abilities they would still auto attack if in range for the few seconds they were out. Pets would share attack delay timers so switching between pets wouldn't make you skip an attack the pet would be ready to auto-attack the moment it comes out before you used your next ability on a different pet.

In the end summoners abilities directly tie in to their spells that make their damage and utility happen. Pets become
convenient to cast so you never have to question whether you will not be able to use them for a higher source of damage since they can easily be recasted with their own abilities.Already having your pet out will mean that you can save yourself on mana, but if the pet dies the punishment wouldn't be that severe just you would miss out on 1 or 2 auto-attacks at most.

The general consensus for most mmo's is to have pet damage to be 35-40% of the summoner himself, however if pets are guaranteed to attack every time summoners use their spells/ability i think we could get away with lower auto attack damage and higher spell damage bringing the attack split up to 55% with the remaining 45% being dot's since summoners will need to still do damage but also have utility abilities to use to fill different roles, but that means pets having higher damage output would limit summoners damage directly when they casted buffs like AOE stoneskin instead of Direct-summoning damage ability. So players would have to choose between damage and utility abilities since global cool down will be longer for summoner only abilities. Auto attack and DOT's combined would still produce around 40-50% damage output but that would be fine since most of the problems with a pets AI was making them susceptiable to getting nuked by an AOE. This new system allows that to not matter.

DOT's dmg will be lowered but only because i also suggest that they should be their time on enemies last even longer and that contagion should be turned into a permanent passive so they wouldn't need to be casted as often in favor of pet based dam/utility abilities.You can cast the three DOT's you have (aero,miasma,bio) and not have to worry about them plus a fourth ability to maintain them.In the case you are casting these DOT's on multiple enemies you will not have to make your rounds as much and instead focus on other abilities.

In this way DOT's+AUTO attack will still accumulate into decent damage even when focused on pets. However utility also has the potential to increase the damage output of party as well so no matter what summoners will be filling a unique role of being able to use a wide range of abilities without sacrificing damage that much at all. They would just have to determine what kind of damage or role they would want to play as.

The biggest issue is that players will say that since summoner can have a wide range of abilities that other jobs will be
useless. However i want to rectify that saying all Summoner buffs will be wholly unique to summoner as much as possible. This will make it so if summoner was in a party that buffs could stack with other jobs buffs , but at the same time ...limit how many summoners people would want to have in any given party since summoners buffs wouldn't stack with each other. Also like FFXI bard's limitations it might be good idea to only allow so many summoner buffs at a time, like 2 at most.This will keep them powerful but not make summoner broken.

Summoner would also gain a macro button where if they clicked on it would cycle through each summon they could cast instead of having them all seperate. Not that you couldn't make separate macros for each pet but it would be better for certain buffs if they wouldn't be hindered by the fact that the pet already needs to be out to use it and instead use my idea to summon them directly along side casting the ability.Also all buffs should have very long cool-downs so you can't keep just switching back and forth easily.

Unique summoner buffs could potentially include:

Earthen Ward- AOE-Stoneskin(not that unique but not very sought out to be casted in battle due to waste of mana, and the fact that it will gain considerable hate when casted.It also doesn't last very long during battle but if summoner could hit everyone at once very frequently then it would be something worth considering.)

Aerial Armor-Blink-Allows players to have a 25% to dodge any attack completely but are still susceptible to AOE attacks.(% chance might need tweaking)Also using this with eye for an eye would boost tank's potential up alot, however i am keeping blink to single target cast only for potential balancing issues.

Spring Water- Gives all party members the effect of HP regen and makes party members 25% more resistant to status
ailments.This could be stacked with WHM's regen.

AOE- Elemental Spikes=Depending on pet you can get different elemental defense that will do elemental damage whenever player gets attacked physically by enemy.

AOE-Enspell-Depending on pet you can get different elemental damage added to your physical attacks.Elemental damage could either have DOT after effect instead of burst damage + a debuff to go along with it. It would make it more than just another increase damage buff. Burn aftereffect could lower damage, ice could slow enemies casting/attacks down, lightning could add paralyze, etc. However the effect would only last so many seconds so players would need to hit the boss consistently to keep dot+buff on.Instead of making it powerful from one single hit you could have the effect stack up to 10 times to achieve full potency so it wouldn't be OMGUBER from the start and if you don't hit again within 2 seconds then the debuff would disappear forcing you to start from 1 stack again. Magic spells wouldn't be affected by this ability, melee buff only.

Arise-Allows all or one party member to gain the ability re-raise.This will mean you have to sacrifice a slot of a summoners
buff for safety net however i think this ability would fit very nicely and give summoners a unique niche. Players raised
through arise cannot be raised again for 1-2 mins after coming back on top of normal weakness.

Mighty Guard-A classic FF ability adds protect and magical resistance onto party members.This can be stacked on top of normal protect and this will simply be known as M.Guard when mousing buff.

Some of these were taken from FFXI, however i think a lot of them fit very well and could give summoner some unique ways to support the party without stepping on other classes toes too much.I am not saying all of these abilities are perfectly balanced either...just brainstorming ideas.Feel free to add/remove any of these if you think this combination is underpowered/overpowered.

Pets direct attacks can be Enkindle+Ekindle 2 for combo effect. AOE attacks can be limit break exlcusives and be very
powerful.Having 2 types of enkindles would offset the damage loss from lowered DOT and auto attack damage.Enkindle would also be the ability that the passive "Auto-summon" be used most with since it will allow the pet to be summoned back right into the fray as they use their attack.

Also giving summoner a unique summon raise would not step on WHM's toes or paladin's since neither of them more often than not can really raise during higher level content since it will take almost everything you have to keep players alive if something goes wrong. Its the utility of not having to cast raise and let your backup meat shield who is now getting munched on by boss (even though he is a rogue/monk/dragoon)will take a lot more focus for the main healer to keep him alive.All the while your tank will be recovering quickly from arise.

So in recap:

Summoners can now buff/attack with their pets at any time since all spells will automatically summon pet while casting the spell itself so players wouldn't have to worry about losing much damage. Auto attack and DOT are lowered in damage(but increased in duration) so players will have to spend less time casting these abilities while still maintaining damage in background even when casting buffs and pet attacks.Utility abilities could potentially make up for lost DOT damage through enspell or spikes spell. Also summoner won't fit healer role but can help keep party members alive and make the jobs of healers easier instead of replacing them. There is always Physick summoners could cast but i highly doubt they would be even be bothered casting it unless absolutely needed as a last resort. Like how EQ2 necro's could take a more primary role as healer but don't since they can only cast so many spells at once and they usually don't have higher teirs of healing like main casters do. Physick is basically cure 1, without freecure or cure 2.

Avoided posting this idea for a while now since i was trying to refine my ideas as much as i could and then dragon posted
about D3/EQ2(never played DND). Diablo 3's witchdoctor and EQ2's necromancer had the essence of the summoning abilities built into their natural attacks and abilities...such as witch doctor summoning jar spiders as a main attack that costed nothing but still acted as mini pets for a second..it was such a unique idea, and necromancers being able to summon items into inventories and being able to draw blood from enemies to heal self then share with allies. They embodied the style of their jobs and made it their business to incorporate their essence of who they were into almost every spell.

They both have multiple ways to play, but they both had to sacrifice something else in order to achieve that. In a mmo you can't cast every spell at once when its needed, so versatility, when done right can add to a party and not take away from it, while having a lesser backup role in case of emergencies.