What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yeah, I mostly invested in the game for the sake of the story but I like my house and it's one of the few pieces of content to be updated with each and every patch...

I don't hate the PvP in the game, either. So I indulge that frequently as well.

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Yeah, pvp is really fun despite issues with the netcode. I think CC and Frontlines are great. If SE were to ever fix FFXIV's netcode I think it could become a pretty competitive esport.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

Page 851, story still needs to be talked about I guess.

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If posts like this and the hate towards criticism would be deleted it might have less than 200

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

The vast majority of RPGs and even FF games don't have death among the major protagonists and aren't considered inferior games.
You claimed that FFXII is your favorite FF game but it has just 2 minor character deaths

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Weird example imho. Vaan's brother and Ashe's husband both die. Their deaths significantly impact the decisions of at least those 2 (Vaan & Ashe).

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

and all but 2 minor "protagonist-aligned" characters survive the main course of the game

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Reks and Rasler are far from "minor" in how they impacted the setting and story. I am actually questioning what a character has to do or be in order for you to be labeled "major".

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I don't see the point of killing off characters when its not necessary coming from the playerbase, that is the story writer's personal preference if its needed for some reason.

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FFXIV is not written first though. You make it sound like some writer comes up with the exp story and everything else is made afterwards according to it. That has not been the case for any FF if i remember correctly. They could hire me as a writer, i could kill off Scion#4 and be ordererd to change that because that scion is a fan favorite and will all across the marketing.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

From what little can be gleaned from information we have on Dawntrail, it seems there may be a schism among the Scions coming up anyway.

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Just like how they parted in EW? Sry for not being to optimistic about that actually being a conflict.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Fran and Balthier send the rest of the cast off while explosions are happening all around them as the Bahamut crashes but their "sacrifice" is undone right after when the Strahl is stolen back by them a year later and they show up in the sequel with no explanation with how they survived. Y'shtola at least gets healed or wooshed back into existence on screen.
Rasler dies after a minute of screentime in the intro movie. Reks is a sacrificial pawn for the tutorial prologue and we find out later in the game that he doesn't even die on-screen and wastes away while convalescing from his stab wound sometime in between the prologue and the actual start of the game.

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So according to you:
It's bad if
- a character survives something without explanation (with you there) but NOT when they are just magically appearing again - though mentioned... what weird take is this?
- a character death doesn't matter if it happens early???
- a character death doesn't count when you at first think he died during battle even though he died through trauma???

Balthier is the one who sent the mail or am i wrong?

You seem REALLY pushy about all of this. Almost like you made up your result first and phrased everything else later. By your logic Papalymo's death is meaningless also, just fyi.

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Originally Posted by Post

We know they're sticking around because of the trust and duty support systems now

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They added Haurchefant as duty support for the Vault... so you might want to think about that again

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I never played 4 nor do I really intend to ever play 4, normally me not playing an older FF game doesn’t reduce my excitement of the game; I just don’t know what a particular boss calls back to, in this instance I feel like I was actively punished for not playing 4

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Same

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So now the void is lost as a potential future interesting plot point because if we go back it’s only going to be either “void restoration” that probably won’t actually go anywhere

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Will you look at that: a new grindfest for crafters & gatherers

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

1. We have many NPC's with the sole purpose of Checkbox marking. No story telling or worldbuilding, just existing as "end in itself".
2. Endwalker ? More like "NO-Consequence-Walker". Many things happen without changing or shaping the world.
3. Repetition of outcomes and of gained information as if we would not listen and need a refresher EVERY 5 MINUTES.
4. Flat charchter arcs without progress, many even with regressing to old behavior without notice or reason.
5. We, as the protagonist, are not necessary for the story... at all we could be dead and still it would end up the way it is.
6. Deus Ex machina. ALL THE TIME. Here and there, its ok but damn Endwalker is based on this.
7. inconsistent story telling: All is dreadfull but my little pony with the power of friendship is the next logical step or "oh my god the stakes, we could loose so much" but here is Pudding.. funny ... haha.
7a. No real villains.... almost all and everybody is "not so bad" and has a redemption arc.
8. Almost no Worldbuilding in Endwalker itself. The most of it is already told through old expansions as if they had nothing to add.
9. Powerlevel... Where are we ? So what is our purpose again? It looks like we went from "we are Superman" to "we are Jimmy" and oscillate between those two for no reason.
10. Pacing. We go to learn something new and every aspect of it dragged out for no reason.

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1. Yup. They need more growth
2. Hard hitting this one. When the "end of the world" barely has any consequences, what will?
3. Weirdly enough the obscure lore doesn't really get mentioned. I genuinely expected them to repeat who all the dragons are but they never did.
4. Sadly yes. I think they fear change so no one looses "their favorite waifu" / "greates character". It's hard to change characters that have been in a story for years. We know them. If they change we may or may not like the change.
5. Just some WoL doing what crystal mommy wants
6. 100% Would be funny if a villain would get those Deus Ex machina dispensers
7. Idk why we need to be basically friends with the villains. Other media from japan has clearly evil characters. Those still have funs and all those... fanarts... they don't need to have a redemption arc.
8. Not so sure. Not for the zones on the planet but on Elpis and a bit on Ultima Thule.
9. & 10. Simply aggree.

~Rest is Ren:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I know a lot of people like to hate things, and I know others don't but simply have different tastes. And that's fine. But honestly, it's not healthy to harbor so much pent up hate over things.

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A lot of the posts before this are civil and calm. Why do you think they are hateful? Critique = hate??? Seems like you are starting to gaslight. If all you wanted was claim your opinion why the weird "haters" rant? Why do you never do this on topics you aggree with?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I'm sorry you didn't all enjoy it, but I'm reminded of that saying "You can't please all of the people all of the time." Hope you enjoy the future better than you have the present.

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Thanks. Oh but i already like the present :3 Lot's of great stories. Like a book i read this year.

You are allowed to voice your opinion Ren and you are allowed to be called out for gaslighting.

Reducing this whole topic as "not being critical feedback" based soley on it's title while being on page 859 is quite something. Do you always judge books by their covers?

The "best" part about Ren's posts are when he "quotes" stuff no one has said and replies to it. Making up strawmen.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

You're trying to shut down people offering their own feedback, engaging in blatant double standards, rampant bad faith, and refusing to engage on the topic, trying instead to disparage people who disagree with you.

"as to why certain posters never seem to address the actual points being raised and instead resort to either personal attacks or go off on irrelevant tangents unrelated to the subject being discussed"

You mean the very thing you're doing right now?

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Do you even realize this 100% fits you? I'm sorry but a lot of your posts have strawmen arguments and gaslighting. Idk why they do but it's like their most visible feature by now. Want to find an insulting text? Wait for the Ren post. You can create rational arguments. I've read it. Idk why you don't stick to that.

Let's look at your intial post again, shall we?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

As respectfully as I can say this:

I disagree.

While some parts of the story I didn't like, the story itself I liked overall, some parts of it I liked tremendously, and now with the resolution, I feel it was a journey well taken. Things are nicely tied up and very much leaning into the feeling of rest and reprieve ahead.

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So far so good. Maybe others don't see it this way (like not feeling it resolved that well) but that's just your opinion :). Wait... there's more...

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I know a lot of people like to hate things, and I know others don't but simply have different tastes. And that's fine. But honestly, it's not healthy to harbor so much pent up hate over things.

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Weird... were are those hate posts? Why write this?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

As for me, I feel the journey was worthwhile, and I like where it ended up in 6.5, and I like where it seems to be going.

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Your opinion: great :)

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I'm sorry you didn't all enjoy it, but I'm reminded of that saying "You can't please all of the people all of the time." Hope you enjoy the future better than you have the present.

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Just like Healer changes. You can't please everyone. Why is one allowed to be given critique and one isn't?

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

Sooo... Renathras you agree EW has its flaws but ... what ? I dont understand your viewpoint. What is it now ? EW good, bad or ugly ? Critique wrong, right, only form a selected few or a form to be filled, a programm i need to sign in ? *sigh*

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Setting aside this doesn't seem like a good faith question and treating it like one anyway (at the very least, it's the only one that is a question/something being asked to talk about rather than insulting):

I agree it has flaws. It's not perfect. I've always said it's not perfect. But not perfect is a far cry from dying, doomed, or the worst thing since anti-sliced bread.

My point, if any is to be had here, is that critique is good/right, and from anyone, if offered in respectful ways, acknowledging as fair and valid those who disagree (instead of attacking them), laid out and explained (both what was disliked and why), and without hyperbole or insult.

Is that a hard thing to understand?

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Well, I could have predicted that coming from a mile away. Let nobody say I didn't try.

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/facepalm

Okay, serious question: Reading your two posts I quoted, you honestly are saying you DID NOT take what I said as a personal insult and fly off the handle - the thing you're accusing me of doing?

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Originally Posted by Nebelheim

At this point it seems there deflecting and saying everyone else are the ones taking offense at everything and feeling attacked. I don't think any amount of help will change anything. I thought you were being pretty helpful and not attacking him in anyway.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

That's been their tactic everytime I actually see 'em lol.

Good thing internet never forgets & credentials cross checking always helps.

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Originally Posted by Nebelheim

It's funny he sees everyone else as the bad guys but never looks at themselves and why people respond to them the way they do. He acts like a victim and goes on angry rants on people who in no way attacks him then when they reply back deflects after reading into things the wrong way and calls people names when no one calls him any. People have gone out of there way to even be helpful to him but sees it as an attack then attacks the people helping him. It seems he is even using being former ex military as some sort of way to hopefully get people to shut up and not respond or shut down any sort of debate.

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Considering you both go at me in every thread we're in together, neither of you are particularly neutral observers here...

I'd also like to point out something: Talking about someone present in the conversation with you in the third person while berating them and their actions is generally considered rude. In case you were unaware.

.

Come to think of it, why am I bothering with this? This is stupid. If you guys want to be childish and rude - while saying someone else is childish and rude - I suppose that's on you exposing yourselves as such. "You shouldn't act like you're attacked all the time, Ren. Now don't say anything while we talk about you behind your back to your front in disparaging ways."

You're right about one thing, though, Rein: The internet is forever.

.

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Originally Posted by Nebelheim

He agrees it has flaws but yet were not allowed to say anything otherwise were supposedly haters and being angry people for pointing them out.

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Ah, yes, something I've literally never said, implied, and have said is NOT true every time I'm accused of saying it. Don't you get tied of lying all the time?

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Originally Posted by BRVV

~Rest is Ren:

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I wish I could say I'm honored, but...

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Originally Posted by BRVV

A lot of the posts before this are civil and calm. Why do you think they are hateful?

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Where did I say they were?

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Critique = hate???

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Where did I say it was?

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Seems like you are starting to gaslight.

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No, that's what you and everyone saying "Ren said all critique is just hate!!". Hell, if I believed that, why would I offer MY OWN CRITIQUES? Surely you don't think that I think MY OWN critiques are hate? So clearly I don't hold the position that "all critiques = hate", now do I?

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Originally Posted by BRVV

If all you wanted was claim your opinion why the weird "haters" rant?

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How is one sentence a rant? Further, a sentence that didn't end there? Did you not read the rest?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

and I know others don't but simply have different tastes. And that's fine.

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Seriously, how is it that not ONE of the people harassing me over this has managed to READ THE REST OF THE SAME SENTENCE THEY ARE QUOTING? It's literally THE SAME SENTENCE, and many of you even have quoted/referenced it directly. How are you unable to read that part? What do you think that part MEANS now that it's being pointed out to you?

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Why do you never do this on topics you aggree with?

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Because I don't do it on topics I disagree with? Again, you're making up something I didn't do and insisting I did it then asking why I didn't do it in other cases. The answer is: I'm not even doing it in the cases you're accusing me of doing it in.

I don't know how many ways I can say "I didn't do that" before you folks will realize "Oooooh. Ren didn't do the thing we're all insisting he did."

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Thanks. Oh but i already like the present :3 Lot's of great stories. Like a book i read this year.

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Great! I'm happy for you. I meant, though, in case it wasn't obvious, that I hope the next story arc/story telling in FFXIV is more to your liking.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

You are allowed to voice your opinion Ren

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Thank you for giving me permission to voice my opinion.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

and you are allowed to be called out for gaslighting.

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Yeah, the problem is, when people "call me out" for gaslighting...when I'm not gaslighting. When people are making up something that isn't happening and then accusing me with that crime, that's wrong. Making up a lie about someone and telling everyone the lie is slander/libel and is wrong.

...and this is setting aside the reality that most people don't know what the definition of the word gaslighting is and use it incorrectly as a generic insult on someone/something, kinda like how people use things like "word salad" to mean "thing I didn't want to read" more often than something that is actually difficult to parse or understand. Gaslighting:

Primary: "psychological manipulation of a person usually over an extended period of time that causes the victim to question the validity of their own thoughts, perception of reality, or memories and typically leads to confusion, loss of confidence and self-esteem, uncertainty of one's emotional or mental stability, and a dependency on the perpetrator"
Secondary: "the act or practice of grossly misleading someone especially for one's own advantage"
Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gaslighting

Given I'm not engaging in "psychological manipulation" to cause people to question the validity of their own thoughts and perception of reality, that one doesn't hold. And given I didn't say "all critique is hate", the second definition does not hold here, either. No matter how many times it's done, accusing someone of gaslighting who isn't gaslighting isn't calling them out, it's insulting them and attacking them inappropriately.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Reducing this whole topic as "not being critical feedback" based soley on it's title while being on page 859 is quite something. Do you always judge books by their covers?

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Out of curiosity, where did I make that statement? Specifically, what was I referring to?

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Do you even realize this 100% fits you?

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It doesn't, that's the problem.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Want to find an insulting text? Wait for the Ren post.

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And yet, you seem blind to the insults against me, including those you yourself are employing...

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Originally Posted by BRVV

You can create rational arguments. I've read it. Idk why you don't stick to that.

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In simple terms, I get frustrated when I make a detailed rational argument only for A FREAKIN DOZEN PEOPLE to take one line out of it, ignore the rest, and say "YOU SAID ALL DOGS GO TO HELL!! CLEARLY YOU HATE PUPPIES!! HOW DARE!!!!". It's insanely frustrating when EVERY post I make has to go through a fine filter of perfection or it will be attacked because literally every word will be scrutinized and no stone will go unturned in the effort to take at least one sentence out of context to accuse me of saying something I didn't just so the respondents can ignore literally every point and rational argument I presented and then go into a circle jerk of talking bad about me to each other (whether or not I respond), dogpiling on me, upvoting each others' comments, and generally being abject jerks to me when I DO respond (and abjectly rude if I do not). All to avoid any actual points I present and effort to silence dissent. And, of course, insisting that not one of them is saying something bad or insulting about me in the process of...doing that. A LOT of that. And that when I suggest anyone is attacking me, I'm TOTALLY wrong and no one is.

Btw: That would be the definition of gaslighting - prolonged and continuous psychological manipulation to convince the victim to question his own thoughts or view of reality. "People are attacking me!" <While and as part of attacking me> "No they aren't, it's all in your head." That actually DOES meet the definition of gaslighting.

The worst part is when I point this out and am called defensive or "playing the victim", and the worst worst, when the other person accuses me of just not making any rational point to begin with. Like why should I even bother? You tell me!

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Let's look at your intial post again, shall we?

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Ah, yes, so you can ignore the very thing you quote. But lets:

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Originally Posted by BRVV

So far so good. Maybe others don't see it this way (like not feeling it resolved that well) but that's just your opinion :). Wait... there's more...

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...well, thank you for that, at least.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Weird... were are those hate posts? Why write this?

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"all those"?

In your own words, tell me, what does THIS mean:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

and I know others don't but simply have different tastes. And that's fine.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Your opinion: great :)

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Thank...you...

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Originally Posted by BRVV

The "best" part about Ren's posts are when he "quotes" stuff no one has said and replies to it. Making up strawmen.

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My god...how can you be this lacking in self-awareness? You're literally quoting me saying things, accusing me of saying what I DIDN'T say, and ignoring what I did say. This is literally what you're doing, Making up strawmen. I've never personally known anyone so lacking in self-awareness before.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

I'm sorry but a lot of your posts have strawmen arguments and gaslighting.

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/sigh

You mean like all of what you're doing here?

You've been accusing me of saying things I didn't say - strawman - and gaslighting me.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Idk why they do but it's like their most visible feature by now.

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Again, I'm literally commenting on your post here doing that. It's like your most visible feature at the moment.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

Just like Healer changes. You can't please everyone. Why is one allowed to be given critique and one isn't?

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Both are.

Serious question:

When have I, me, myself, personally ever said "critique is not allowed"?

At what point, in what post, have I EVER said those words?

And no, "You said it was hate!!" is not saying it was not allowed. And if THAT is your answer:

When have I, me, myself, personally ever said "ALL critique is hate"?

...and wouldn't that mean I was calling MYSELF a hater considering I have offered critiques of my own? How does it make sense in your mind that I'm holding a definition whereby I'm accusing myself of being a hater alongside the rest of you? Does that make sense?

.

/sigh

No one's perfect, me no more than any other Human. But I'm not the ONLY one that makes mistakes. And it's not for lack of trying not to. But when some people are damned and determined to find something, anything, even if they have to make it up, to attack one over, it gets REALLLLLLLLY old. This is hardly the first time I've asked "When have I said X" and people not been able to actually provide anything but snarky one-liner answers despite having accused me of doing so.

I can't make perfect posts. Not possible.

But I'm generally not trying to be insulting or antagonistic to people. I only shift into that mode when I'm getting attacked - a lot, and unfairly - and after I've first tried a couple of posts of reasoned explanation, clarification, and polite rebuttal. Note after my first post here, despite being accused of calling everyone haters, my first responses were politely saying that I didn't say that. Though I will use people's words in reply to them if they fit their positions as well or better than my own.

Only when I was called a liar and told yes I was saying what I had just said I didn't, and then had someone else harping on about me being a bad faith gaslighter, did I get upset. It can be difficult to maintain composure when literally a dozen people are constantly harping on you and inventing ways to take everything you said as an insult and strawmanning and gaslighting you over and over again.

And tell me, which of you wouldn't?

I'm not MORE perfect than any of you are. So if you'd be upset being treated that way, you shouldn't expect that I wouldn't be. And when my first repose is explanation and discussion, and I only shift to antagonism after my efforts at politeness being roundly rebuffed, then perhaps it's possible I'm not the bad guy, it's the people rebuffing those attempts at olive branches that are.

...but I'm tired of saying THIS, too. As this hasn't been the first time, either...

No, it is a serious question because to my understanding you were trying brush of criticism as "hate train", if i put it in a short term. This is seems not to be the case after this answer but your wording in some of your posting is not "easy to read" or can be easily missunderstood.
I think there are ppl that are too much but these are a very small group that can be divided into angry everything, oposition for the sake of it and trolls. Almost none of these post here.

Also i NEVER SAID it is doomed almost no one is saying that... those who are need to explain how and why.
Something on the side: ALL MMOS THAT ARE DYING, die slow and painfull. It is never fast except for the scams. If FF14 would be dying it would take 5 to 10 years (in my opinion probably more like 15 years if ever, they will milk away and just let it run as cheap as possible), atleast, to sever shutdown.

But EW is bad and it was NEVER this bad, except for 1.0 and even there was a solid story. Which is missing in EW in all regards. The ideas and concepts are good but the execution is so poor that i would take ARR in all its slowness or pre patch HW slug or even the SB steppe nonsense again over this "void story" or "myths of the realm" or "my little loporits friendship laser". Gameplay wise we have the same since ages and thats the problem but it works even if its stale, so far away from dying or collapsing.

To the point "insluting":
Thats a thing here ? I did not read all post but that should not be a thing... at all. People are snaky, salty or passive aggresive but thats not insulting. But maybe i am just a lucky Lala.

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

No, it is a serious question because to my understanding you were trying brush of criticism as "hate train", if i put it in a short term. This is seems not to be the case after this answer but your wording in some of your posting is not "easy to read" or can be easily missunderstood.
I think there are ppl that are too much but these are a very small group that can be divided into angry everything, oposition for the sake of it and trolls. Almost none of these post here.

Also i NEVER SAID it is doomed almost no one is saying that... those who are need to explain how and why.
Something on the side: ALL MMOS THAT ARE DYING, die slow and painfull. It is never fast except for the scams. If FF14 would be dying it would take 5 to 10 years (in my opinion probably more like 15 years if ever, they will milk away and just let it run as cheap as possible), atleast, to sever shutdown.

But EW is bad and it was NEVER this bad, except for 1.0 and even there was a solid story. Which is missing in EW in all regards. The ideas and concepts are good but the execution is so poor that i would take ARR in all its slowness or pre patch HW slug or even the SB steppe nonsense again over this "void story" or "myths of the realm" or "my little loporits friendship laser". Gameplay wise we have the same since ages and thats the problem but it works even if its stale, so far away from dying or collapsing.

To the point "insluting":
Thats a thing here ? I did not read all post but that should not be a thing... at all. People are snaky, salty or passive aggresive but thats not insulting. But maybe i am just a lucky Lala.

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He is just going to keep whining about how everyone is out to get him and attacking him and deflecting things because everyone is negative and hateful when no one was even being nasty or angry or hateful whatsoever the last 866 pages. He saw this 866 page thread as so negative he made a parody thread as a "joke" to counteract all the "negativity" and "bad faith" arguments in this thread. I think it's time for him to take a break from the forums if everything is perceived as an attack on him or find a way to get some help because thinking everyone is out to get you and that debates are personal attacks against him is not a healthy mindset to have.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

When have I, me, myself, personally ever said "critique is not allowed"? At what point, in what post, have I EVER said those words?

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It NEEDS TO be those EXACT words? So implications mean nothing then? Should i be as condescending as you then?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

"You said it was hate!!" is not saying it was not allowed. And if THAT is your answer:

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I *actually* never said that. Look it up. Why do you keep putting words in other peoples mouths? Really weak arguments when you have to CHANGE what others were saying. Should i comment like this:
"People should be murdered" - Wow Ren that's quite a hottake. I don't think why you believe this. I am certaintly not on board with that statement.
- Notice how meaningless it is?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

When have I, me, myself, personally ever said "ALL critique is hate"?

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Only story critique and only "negative" ones. Or more easily: those that aren't on "your side" are all haters. That is what you imply. Google that last word before you type up that you didn't write that exact sentence.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

/sigh

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Since you critique people's face expressions: That sigh was to give the impression we bore you and are difficult to reason with right? Maybe if a bunch of people think that about YOU it's the YOU that's the problem. I could mirror you more. You might not last that long, than again my nerves might not last long either.
Trying to reason with a gaslighter like you who puts words in people's mouths is actually really /sigh

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Originally Posted by Renathras

No one's perfect, me no more than any other Human. But I'm not the ONLY one that makes mistakes. And it's not for lack of trying not to. But when some people are damned and determined to find something, anything, even if they have to make it up, to attack one over, it gets REALLLLLLLLY old. This is hardly the first time I've asked "When have I said X" and people not been able to actually provide anything but snarky one-liner answers despite having accused me of doing so.

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Yes you are so much more mature than those people. Is that why you made that Dawntrail troll copy of this thread?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I can't make perfect posts. Not possible.

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One with just your opinion on the game and no snarky remarks, again gaslighting and strawman reasoning would totally suffice. If you stay concise those posts are actually easier to write.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

But I'm generally not trying to be insulting or antagonistic to people. I only shift into that mode when I'm getting attacked

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Why is your very first post in this chain than full of attacks? Who provoked you? YOU started it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Only when I was called a liar and told yes I was saying what I had just said I didn't, and then had someone else harping on about me being a bad faith gaslighter, did I get upset. It can be difficult to maintain composure when literally a dozen people are constantly harping on you and inventing ways to take everything you said as an insult and strawmanning and gaslighting you over and over again.

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Sucks i know. I know because YOU do this to a lot of people, like me.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I'm not MORE perfect than any of you are.

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No you are fine the way god intended... or something <insert your beliefs>. More importantly: You are having and obvious hard time staying on topic. Always resorting to backhand insults, then trying to reason that you didn't insult anyone just because it was slightly indirect.
If i wrote "Ren is a hater" that would be an insult but writing "I know a lot of people like to hate things, and I know others don't but simply have different tastes" also is. No one is getting fooled. You are very specific in where you put those words. In no topic you generally aggree with you post something like that.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And when my first repose is explanation and discussion (...)...but I'm tired of saying THIS, too. As this hasn't been the first time, either...

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Your first response after YOUR first insult. Rich take. I am also tired. If you can't change than maybe i should just block you and accept that you are a deeply toxic person.

I really liked the Endwalker story as it came complete and told the story it wanted to tell. Unlike other MMOs that sell you the story piecemeal and over a long period of time to retain subs.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

I really liked the Endwalker story as it came complete and told the story it wanted to tell. Unlike other MMOs that sell you the story piecemeal and over a long period of time to retain subs.

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I mean the Z+H story has taken 13 years to tell so not sure what you mean by this

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean the Z+H story has taken 13 years to tell so not sure what you mean by this

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That's the overall arc. The story of EW itself was told entirely in 6.0, with the 6.x patches creating their own separate arc leading to DT. (Compare to previous expansions where the main story arc of an expansion took the entirety of its patch sequence to tell.)

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A lot of the posts before this are civil and calm. Why do you think they are hateful? Critique = hate??? Seems like you are starting to gaslight. If all you wanted was claim your opinion why the weird "haters" rant? Why do you never do this on topics you aggree with?

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I'd have to disagree. The very title of the thread itself is charged and tries to pass off a personal opinion as if it's magically some kind of fact. That's not how you generate productive discussion. And at various points throughout this thread's life, it's been nothing but a hate train demeaning the developers and then going after anyone who dares to say they enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

That's the overall arc. The story of EW itself was told entirely in 6.0, with the 6.x patches creating their own separate arc leading to DT. (Compare to previous expansions where the main story arc of an expansion took the entirety of its patch sequence to tell.)



I'd have to disagree. The very title of the thread itself is charged and tries to pass off a personal opinion as if it's magically some kind of fact. That's not how you generate productive discussion. And at various points throughout this thread's life, it's been nothing but a hate train demeaning the developers and then going after anyone who dares to say they enjoy it.

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You can’t really just say that it’s the wider arc considering unlike say ShB which is 95% self contained EW makes zero sense without the entire arc that came before it

Sure it finished telling the entire story by 6.0 but the story needs the foundation of the other 4 expansions to properly work as a story so I still say saying EW’s story was told all in one shot is a bit disingenuous

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

No, it is a serious question because to my understanding you were trying brush of criticism as "hate train", if i put it in a short term.

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Okay, I'm just not going to bother anymore.

I can only say so many times "I literally did not say that AND literally continued the sentence to include people who don't hate the game critique it as well and that is fine". I'm not sure how much more clearly I can say it, but if people at this point still are going to lie about that and insist that's what I said against all evidence, my own clarifications, and pages of posts saying otherwise, there's no home in convincing you otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Nebelheim

He is just going to keep whining about...

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Okay, I'm just blocking you now. You literally read nothing I say, continue insisting I'm saying the same things I've debunked, there's no hope for reason there.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

It NEEDS TO be those EXACT words? So implications mean nothing then? Should i be as condescending as you then?

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Yup, we're done here.

Here's the problem: When you think someone is implying something and they say, outright, OVER A DOZEN TIMES that they were not, it's extremely rude to insist you know what they were saying better than they were.

THERE WAS NO FIRST INSULT. That's the issue. But if you are going to insist, after me saying over and over again that wasn't what I said, and knowing you can't find those exact words because I literally DID NOT SAY those exact words, then, once again, what's the point? If you're going to insist I was saying something I didn't say, even acknowledging that I didn't outright say it and you're basing your view on what you THINK I was implying, and will continue to force those words in my mouth even after I say every way to Sunday that I was NOT implying that, then what am I supposed to do?

If "I did not literally say that in the text" AND "I also didn't mean that in any way" are not sufficient, what WOULD BE?

"If I wrote 'Ren is a hater'" - EXCEPT I DID NOT WRITE anyone's <name> is a hater, now did I? AT ALL. There was no first post "full of attacks". Even in your initial deep dive into the post, you saw ONE sentence that you took THE FIRST PART OF and decided that was a "rant". You have the literal quote. You can't keep insisting something was said that was not said. But there's no way for me to convince you otherwise, so we're done here. Or at least I'm done with this BS.

.

This is why I say all the time people don't care about the truth, they're just looking for excuses to attack.

This thread's plotline is more interesting than Endwalker's!

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Okay, I'm just not going to bother anymore.

I can only say so many times "I literally did not say that AND literally continued the sentence to include people who don't hate the game critique it as well and that is fine". I'm not sure how much more clearly I can say it, but if people at this point still are going to lie about that and insist that's what I said against all evidence, my own clarifications, and pages of posts saying otherwise, there's no home in convincing you otherwise.



Okay, I'm just blocking you now. You literally read nothing I say, continue insisting I'm saying the same things I've debunked, there's no hope for reason there.



Yup, we're done here.

Here's the problem: When you think someone is implying something and they say, outright, OVER A DOZEN TIMES that they were not, it's extremely rude to insist you know what they were saying better than they were.

THERE WAS NO FIRST INSULT. That's the issue. But if you are going to insist, after me saying over and over again that wasn't what I said, and knowing you can't find those exact words because I literally DID NOT SAY those exact words, then, once again, what's the point? If you're going to insist I was saying something I didn't say, even acknowledging that I didn't outright say it and you're basing your view on what you THINK I was implying, and will continue to force those words in my mouth even after I say every way to Sunday that I was NOT implying that, then what am I supposed to do?

If "I did not literally say that in the text" AND "I also didn't mean that in any way" are not sufficient, what WOULD BE?

"If I wrote 'Ren is a hater'" - EXCEPT I DID NOT WRITE anyone's <name> is a hater, now did I? AT ALL. There was no first post "full of attacks". Even in your initial deep dive into the post, you saw ONE sentence that you took THE FIRST PART OF and decided that was a "rant". You have the literal quote. You can't keep insisting something was said that was not said. But there's no way for me to convince you otherwise, so we're done here. Or at least I'm done with this BS.

.

This is why I say all the time people don't care about the truth, they're just looking for excuses to attack.

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Your the one who jumped in and put words in peoples mouth and attacked people and now deflecting and claiming everyone is being negative and attacking you. Maybe you should get off the forums and take a break if everything comes across as an attack. I don't know what is going on in your real life but you should take a break and do some self reflecting or some therapy to talk out some personal issues you seem to have with every person you interact with on the internet. Your the one who started all this with your rant a few pages ago and indirectly calling people names and claiming people were bad faith arguing. You seem to always have personal issues with everyone you ever interact with on the forums. At this point im surprised anyone tries to interact/debate with you because you always feel attacked and put words in peoples mouth when no one ever attacks you. At this point I should be the one who should block you considering it's not the first time I was falsely accused of attacking you along with multiple others you accuse of attacking you when your generally the one who starts these "attacks".

As pertains to the story, I think at this point going forward I am just going to go off the assumption that we have been Tempered by Venat. It is the only thing that makes sense at this point. If we were Tempered to believe in her cause, then the double standard we apply to her makes sense, and it makes sense why we continue to fight for people (like we should) while ignoring the horrors she caused.

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Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

As pertains to the story, I think at this point going forward I am just going to go off the assumption that we have been Tempered by Venat. It is the only thing that makes sense at this point. If we were Tempered to believe in her cause, then the double standard we apply to her makes sense, and it makes sense why we continue to fight for people (like we should) while ignoring the horrors she caused.

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We were not and that is not canon, if you think it is, you didn't pay attention to 5.2 or 5.3 where we are told outright that the blessing of light is bestowed upon those who awaken to the echo specifically to prevent tempering, period. Furthermore, as Hydaelyn was created by she and a faction of people who were fearful of the tempering effects of Zodiark, the likelihood of her having done so is slim to none.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

We were not and that is not canon, if you think it is, you didn't pay attention to 5.2 or 5.3 where we are told outright that the blessing of light is bestowed upon those who awaken to the echo specifically to prevent tempering, period. Furthermore, as Hydaelyn was created by she and a faction of people who were fearful of the tempering effects of Zodiark, the likelihood of her having done so is slim to none.

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I paid plenty of attention, which is why I am just trying to come up with ways that make the way we treat Venat's horrors make sense. Otherwise the story not calling out Venat for the sheer oceans of blood on her hands is the height of hypocrisy from us. Canon or not, it is about the only way I can get through the story without wondering why we prop up a genocidal murderer as a hero while rightfully calling out people who committed similar atrocities. The Tempered never think they are Tempered after all. Of course we would consider it just a blessing. :P

I suppose I could always just pretend my character is secretly just playing along with the Venat narrative, and has decided to make it their life goal to make sure no one ever comes along and does what she did ever again.

^ I mean if anything the 6.0 MSQ vindicated venat even if she is still highly flawed

The source is the only planet in the universe that still has life left on it and zodiarks barrier was failing, the ancients had zero alternatives, if Meteion had never been created then the ancients would have fallen to the same end as the last world in the dead ends, on the world where venat made her decision after zodiark had been created and still failed to stop the final days to the aether rich ancients there was zero alternative, Meteion was going to wipe the source of all life

Venat is responsible for billions of deaths but is also the sole reason why there is even still life in the universe

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Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

I paid plenty of attention, which is why I am just trying to come up with ways that make the way we treat Venat's horrors make sense. Otherwise the story not calling out Venat for the sheer oceans of blood on her hands is the height of hypocrisy from us. Canon or not, it is about the only way I can get through the story without wondering why we prop up a genocidal murderer as a hero while rightfully calling out people who committed similar atrocities. The Tempered never think they are Tempered after all. Of course we would consider it just a blessing. :P

I suppose I could always just pretend my character is secretly just playing along with the Venat narrative, and has decided to make it their life goal to make sure no one ever comes along and does what she did ever again.

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The game plays around the enire "what sacrifice is warranted and what isn't" theme several times, with most of these cases being presented as a food for thought with no definite answer provided (Venat included).
WoL themselves gets called out a single time near the end of Shadowbringers by Varis, after many many years of slaughtering for what we presume to be a good cause. So there's that.

Seeing WoL as tempered by Hydaelyn is one way to look at that I guess, so if that's the answer that works for you and your perception of the narrative - that's fine.

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Originally Posted by Aniya_Estlihn

We were not and that is not canon, if you think it is, you didn't pay attention to 5.2 or 5.3 where we are told outright that the blessing of light is bestowed upon those who awaken to the echo specifically to prevent tempering, period. Furthermore, as Hydaelyn was created by she and a faction of people who were fearful of the tempering effects of Zodiark, the likelihood of her having done so is slim to none.

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Not quite. Putting aside that Venat was only using concern towards Zodiark as a convenient cover story to avoid actually sharing her true concerns as well as knowledge of exactly what was causing the Final Days...Tempering was never brought up in any capacity as their fear.

It was also established prior to Endwalker that Tempering was prevented by the Echo rather than the Blessing of Light. We also see that an artificial variant can prevent it as well as seen with the Resonant. It's only with Endwalker - and a couple of other retcons that came with it - that the protection from Tempering is attributed to the Blessing of Light.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Venat is responsible for billions of deaths but is also the sole reason why there is even still life in the universe

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She isn't the sole reason for that, so much as passing off the victories of other characters and factions as either her own work or that of the Sundered. For example the only reason Etheirys continued to exist both before and after the Sundering is due to Zodiark rather than Hydaelyn - something made clearer in the other localisations. For some reason the English localisation has a habit of obscuring that through framing something positive in a neutral or negative light or simply leaving out key bits of context altogether, as seen here:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...s-unacceptable

There's a fair few interesting examples throughout that thread.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

^ I mean if anything the 6.0 MSQ vindicated venat even if she is still highly flawed

The source is the only planet in the universe that still has life left on it and zodiarks barrier was failing, the ancients had zero alternatives, if Meteion had never been created then the ancients would have fallen to the same end as the last world in the dead ends, on the world where venat made her decision after zodiark had been created and still failed to stop the final days to the aether rich ancients there was zero alternative, Meteion was going to wipe the source of all life

Venat is responsible for billions of deaths but is also the sole reason why there is even still life in the universe

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There’s been a tracker on meteon since the mind wipe stuff and she knows that dynamis is a key factor and is a former convocation member. Surely leveraging any or all of those would be a simpler solution than annihilating her own people and culture? We already know timelines split based on the 8uc stuff. Which they didn’t have to write.

^yes but zodiarks barricade is failing and it didn’t protect the ancients properly, so if she didn’t sunder the ancients then the final days would have consumed them and then the rest of intelligent life would have failed when zodiark’s barrier failed

Venat sundering bought the source 10,000 years for humans to recover enough to stop Meteion before zodiarks barrier failed

This is not to say that venat was responsible for the barrier of zodiark but the ancients were still at a dead end, they couldn’t stop anything and their only plan was to keep sacrificing more to bring back people they had already sacrificed

Venat was the only way forward even if that way was through an ocean of blood

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

^yes but zodiarks barricade is failing and it didn’t protect the ancients properly, so if she didn’t sunder the ancients then the final days would have consumed them and then the rest of intelligent life would have failed when zodiark’s barrier failed

Venat sundering bought the source 10,000 years for humans to recover enough to stop Meteion before zodiarks barrier failed

This is not to say that venat was responsible for the barrier of zodiark but the ancients were still at a dead end, they couldn’t stop anything and their only plan was to keep sacrificing more to bring back people they had already sacrificed

Venat was the only way forward even if that way was through an ocean of blood

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On the contrary, Zodiark did stop the crisis and shielded the Sundered from Meteion's assault for 12k years, the Ancients didn't know what the root cause was because Venat didn't tell them.

It's also a common misconception that Zodiark was going to involve endless sacrifices. This was never actually stated, as per Hythlodaeus outlining what the actual plan was set to entail back in Shadowbringers during the Amaurot segment of the MSQ's. The story also never said his barrier was failing. It just asserts she feared they'd become caught in a cycle of sacrifice, a point not evident from other sources which indicated a terminal point to the sacrifices. She also believed they wouldn't be able to directly wield Dynamis, ignoring the possibility of workarounds. What ended the barrier was Fandaniel fighting you using Zodiark to end him. She never told the ancients about the root cause of the issue so they can't really be blamed for not knowing about Meteion or devising a solution to her. Furthermore, Venat was a respected member of their society and so if she spoke up to share her actual concerns instead of acting as an active saboteur then it is more likely than not that her people would have listened. We know Emet-Selch cast doubt on the circumstances surrounding the Warrior of Light visiting Elpis but based on the slim chance that the Warrior of Light was telling the truth, he cited his love of Etheirys and his people as reason enough to pursue it further 'just in case'.

A number of individuals who came together through this thread created a video series involving a deeper and critical look at Venat's actions, complete with sources. It's broken into different sections for easier consumption though the most relevant to this particular subject would be:

Third Sacrifice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySzci_6Hmqs

Excuses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrDHyu5wJ6M

For those interested in the full package, it can be found here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsk412wCrJY

Venat's plan was terrible. We will never know if the Ancients could have come up with anything better, because she never gave them that choice. She decided that they were wrong, and the world needed to be the way she thought it should be. She destroyed the planet, including the new life she claimed to want to protect, and then watched as multiple Shards full of life were destroyed in an attempt to get to the point where her plan might work. All while creating gods we need to pray to in order to keep the world from being destroyed, which makes her distaste from people worshiping Zodiark basically just her being annoyed they were worshiping the wrong gods.

There is zero reason that a group of people over thousands of years could not have come up with a solution to Meteion, but they were never given the facts, and they were never given the choice before Venat just decided for them.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

^yes but zodiarks barricade is failing and it didn’t protect the ancients properly, so if she didn’t sunder the ancients then the final days would have consumed them and then the rest of intelligent life would have failed when zodiark’s barrier failed

Venat sundering bought the source 10,000 years for humans to recover enough to stop Meteion before zodiarks barrier failed

This is not to say that venat was responsible for the barrier of zodiark but the ancients were still at a dead end, they couldn’t stop anything and their only plan was to keep sacrificing more to bring back people they had already sacrificed

Venat was the only way forward even if that way was through an ocean of blood

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What I’m saying is she had more than enough information to negate the need to summon zodiark and all entailed issues. I genuinely cannot tell if she’s meant to be a parody of competent people wanting more difficulty in the game and unable to fathom that not everyone finds it as easy as them or if despite intuiting time travel from a glance, managed to miss the obvious implications of crystal Graham’s survival.

The barrier protected the sundered but it didn’t protect the ancients, if venat didn’t sunder the ancients then the final final days would have continued unimpeded while they tried to come up with a solution to a problem they didn’t understand or couldn’t properly interact with (since ancients can’t interact with dynamis properly)

So it basically amounted to a split second decision
1) risk it and hope someone fixes the problem before the final days consumes everything and removes any future chance of them fixing the problem
2) sunder the world to buy time to fix the problem

I 100% agree that venat is in the wrong for not attempting to do anything with the convocation to alert them of Meteion but we also don’t know how much time passes between elpis and amurout, the EN version of Elpis strongly implies it’s not a lot at all, plus with Hermes being Hermes how much can venat really trust the convocation beyond Azem, how does she know that the rest of the convocation minus emet selch doesn’t support Hermes plans

It did protect the Ancients. The world had been stablised and was recovering when Venat decided to destroy it. She did what she did because she was on the faction that didn't want the new life to be sacrificed to get the Ancient souls out of Zodiark. Though the devs never did exactly explain what the new life was, it all ended up being moot because that was wiped out when she Sundered the planet anyway.

If the barrier truly did protect the ancients I’m happy to rescind my point because if so then yeah venat is an idiot for jumping straight to the sundering

But everything I read of the story implied the barrier didn’t help the ancients, zodiark brought forth new life but the ancients were still being consumed by the final days

If I’m wrong on that then yeah I agree venat is wrong here

With all due respect it's all addressed in the video, with sources. The video itself was created specifically to help counter the common misconceptions surrounding the Sundering and adjacent events.

At no point is it ever stated that Zodiark's barrier was failing prior to the Sundering and as we see from the second coming of the Final Days, the Sundered are more vulnerable to the effects of Meteion's rampage as unlike the Ancients who simply had their powers hijacked, the Sundered directly transform into Blasphemies.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

With all due respect it's all addressed in the video, with sources. The video itself was created specifically to help counter the common misconceptions surrounding the Sundering and adjacent events.

At no point is it ever stated that Zodiark's barrier was failing prior to the Sundering and as we see from the second coming of the Final Days, the Sundered are more vulnerable to the effects of Meteion's rampage as unlike the Ancients who simply had their powers hijacked, the Sundered directly transform into Blasphemies.

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The barrier wasn’t failing prior to the sundering but it was known to be failing leading up to the events of the game, ignoring that zodiark was going to break free after about 1-2 more rejoining the barrier wouldn’t have lasted 5 more rejoinings anyway

And while I appreciate the video if this isn’t explained clearly in the game itself I more consider that a failure on the games part

I’ll fully admit I’m wrong for arguing from a false premise but im also going from my interpretation of the game itself, I shouldn’t need a lore video to correct common misconceptions about the game because it’s a failure on the game that they are even there

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The barrier wasn’t failing prior to the sundering but it was known to be failing leading up to the events of the game, ignoring that zodiark was going to break free after about 1-2 more rejoining the barrier wouldn’t have lasted 5 more rejoinings anyway

And while I appreciate the video if this isn’t explained clearly in the game itself I more consider that a failure on the games part

I’ll fully admit I’m wrong for arguing from a false premise but im also going from my interpretation of the game itself, I shouldn’t need a lore video to correct common misconceptions about the game because it’s a failure on the game that they are even there

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The barrier was never failing. The only reason it failed at all is because we literally murdered Zodiark. What was failing was Venat's hold on Zodiark. The barrier that he himself put into place was just dandy though. In fact, his power was getting stronger as he became more and more whole. He would have kept his barrier going for a while yet. The problem was that no one but Venat knew what was causing the problem to begin with. The Ascians were fighting for their world, but still had no idea what was attacking them.

Edit: Not the Ascians killing everyone was right either. I would have prefered Venat just tell everyone what was up before we had to head into thousands of years of forced mass sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

The barrier was never failing. The only reason it failed at all is because we literally murdered Zodiark. What was failing was Venat's hold on Zodiark. The barrier that he himself put into place was just dandy though. In fact, his power was getting stronger as he became more and more whole. He would have kept his barrier going for a while yet. The problem was that no one but Venat knew what was causing the problem to begin with. The Ascians were fighting for their world, but still had no idea what was attacking them.

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Are you sure, honestly this conversation has made me realise I probably should have gone through the story again before commenting (my bad), but I would have bet money on the fact that somewhere along the way someone said that the song of despair was eating away at zodiarks barrier and even him gaining power back from the rejoining’s wasn’t slowing down the degradation of the barrier

But yes I agree, I probably phrased it badly but from old (wrong) interpretation I never thought venat was good, just kinda the best of a suite of bad alternatives

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Are you sure, honestly this conversation has made me realise I probably should have gone through the story again before commenting (my bad), but I would have bet money on the fact that somewhere along the way someone said that the song of despair was eating away at zodiarks barrier and even him gaining power back from the rejoining’s wasn’t slowing down the degradation of the barrier

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That I will admit I am fuzzy on. It has been a while since I played through. I do know that the barrier was still holding strong by the time we got to him, and had been doing so for thousands of years. Which would have been plenty of time for a race as intelligent and advanced as the Ancients to come up with an actual plan to fix things had they been given actual information.

Beyond that though, since we are technically already a product of what happened and we can't really change our past, I would have been happy enough if the story took a more pragmatic approach to Venat. Something like "well, you broke the world but this is the world we have now and we will fight for it with our dying breaths" would have been much nicer than the "Venat saved everyone and loves us all" narrative we end up getting. My problem, in the end, is less the way the story ended up going (because I love a good tragedy), and more how the story calls out one group for their actions, but calls Venat a hero even though she arguably killed even more people.

Oh yeah that part I totally agree on, the game basically forcing us to pretend that venat did no wrong is problematic regardless of how the story actually panned out

I just started this discussion because like I said since I came in with the interpretation that the barrier didn’t protect the ancients then venat’s actions made more sense than any other alternative presented in a reasonable timeframe of the event, using that idea venat is ultimately good if highly flawed, using the idea that the barrier did protect the ancients then venat goes from “highly flawed but ultimately good” to “arguably worse than those she fought against”

Regardless neither option fits with this “benevolent goddess who can do no wrong” the game tries to force

Aye, and it does stand to reason that, even if it were not for a few of our lifetimes (or perhaps sooner since what you said does ring a bell I can't place), Zodiark's aether and power would have needed replenishing eventually. Especially since Meteion's attacks were relentless. Atrophy sucks. Him as a long term solution was never really a good idea. Especially since he was put there to fix the symptoms of a problem no one knew the answers to. Though installing the Twelve in as a prayer battery to stop the worlds smushing back together is just as awful, honestly. What happens when we stop believing in gods?

The story was sadly a mess. In the end I just hate feeling like a hypocrite. I now feel that, instead of going out and leading by example, I am just parroting ideals I am completely willing to throw to the wall. I hate it. :(

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I just started this discussion because like I said since I came in with the interpretation that the barrier didn’t protect the ancients then venat’s actions made more sense than any other alternative presented in a reasonable timeframe of the event, using that idea venat is ultimately good if highly flawed, using the idea that the barrier did protect the ancients then venat goes from “highly flawed but ultimately good” to “arguably worse than those she fought against”

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What I got from the story is that Meteion would never penetrate the barrier, Emet-Selch did say that Zodiark rewrote the laws of the star, this is information that Meteion isn't privy to, so the angle of attack will never change, meaning the barrier will hold up until Zodiark is eliminated. It's why Fandaniel piloted Zodiark like a mechsuit to attack us, he wanted Zodiark gone so Meteion can get through.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

*snip*

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1 sentence out of that first, suprisingly short post is enough. For you to call others haters it's even less that is needed. Made up quoted text that is.

Mirror, mirror on the wall... (can you guess what comes next?)

That's why i think it's so awful that you said "i wish you all would just cease to exist". That's a terrible thing to say.

/sigh /deepSigh /moreSigh

I'm so done here. There are just some people who will never grow up. They will throw tantrums and open threads out of spite. They see everyone as their enemy and assume everything about others but ignore the clear message they put out. I'm sorry not everyone can be reasonable and engage in actual discussion. Some people just insult you instead of sticking to the topic. In some cases it gets so bad that 99% of the "discussion" with them is you trying to tell them they are insulting and them being insulted by things no one has ever said or even better: you calling them out for their insults. The sad part is that those really difficult people don't see the error in their ways. Everybody else is the bad one. They might have a mental illness.

Not taikin' the bait anymore. Sorry guys, you'll have to find a new punching bag. I'm done with that stupidity. I should have wised up to your collective gaslighting far sooner. Shame on me for not doing so. But now that I have, your bait is inert.
(I'd also suggestion you look at 3, 4, 5, and 6 in your signature, BRVV. They're good points you should actually follow yourself, as you aren't in your replies to me here, especially 6.)

EDIT:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nayukhuut

Edit: Not the Ascians killing everyone was right either. I would have prefered Venat just tell everyone what was up before we had to head into thousands of years of forced mass sacrifice.

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Didn't she make an attempt. She went and talked to them (in the cutscene it's a small crowd, but that's true of all cutscenes due to engine limits, so presumably she was talking to a lot of the remaining survivors at once) and they were like cultists talking about how they would cultivate new life then sacrifice it to Zodiark (genocide; manufactured genocide at that) as many times as it takes to get their old state of living back. And it was clear they weren't interested in any alternative. It made all of that pretty clear that up until then, she was torn on the Sundering and didn't want to do it, but that was what convinced her her people were beyond reason as she tried to actually reason with them.

Unless you mean before Zodiark, though I was thinking the story said some reason for that, though it might have been contrived. But that said, there's no clear indication that would have worked. I'm not sure if the Convocation would have called her insane or taken her seriously, but everything we've seen shows their magic doesn't inherently reach beyond Etherys (that is, to get to Endsinger), or that they would have been able not to lose themselves to her Song and be unable to fight her effectively (similarly to the way the Company of Heroes fought Titan), nor is it clear they would have even tried such a plan in the first place, much less succeeded. On the one hand, we're told Dynamis works differently and would have overwhelmed their power, but on the other hand, Emet and Hyth are able to use it just fine at the end of Ultima Thul, though that could be because they were somehow there through the WoL.

There are a lot more question marks down that path, not a sure thing of a better outcome.

What I took from the story is that when she did go to them, they outright refused to listen because they were basically cultists sold on the idea of regaining all they had without any lasting sacrifice on their part. The implication here is that they would have reacted to her earlier overtures the same way.

And we also know from past lore that they did, since we know from ShB that the Zodiark plan was the first time their society split. Meaning Venat probably DID talk about it then AND they decided to do it anyway. We're not sure what she did and did not reveal, but we know she tried to reach them with reason even then and was rejected.

So there's very little in the lore that evidences that Venat just needed to go to them and explain things and they would have listened. Everything we have in the story suggests the exact opposite.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BRVV

1 sentence out of that first, suprisingly short post is enough. For you to call others haters it's even less that is needed. Made up quoted text that is.

Mirror, mirror on the wall... (can you guess what comes next?)

That's why i think it's so awful that you said "i wish you all would just cease to exist". That's a terrible thing to say.

/sigh /deepSigh /moreSigh

I'm so done here. There are just some people who will never grow up. They will throw tantrums and open threads out of spite. They see everyone as their enemy and assume everything about others but ignore the clear message they put out. I'm sorry not everyone can be reasonable and engage in actual discussion. Some people just insult you instead of sticking to the topic. In some cases it gets so bad that 99% of the "discussion" with them is you trying to tell them they are insulting and them being insulted by things no one has ever said or even better: you calling them out for their insults. The sad part is that those really difficult people don't see the error in their ways. Everybody else is the bad one. They might have a mental illness.

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A bit of a tangent here but looking at your signature I think it's extremely embarrassing that a community of grown adults need to have basic rules like those listed for them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

A bit of a tangent here but looking at your signature I think it's extremely embarrassing that a community of grown adults need to have basic rules like those listed for them.

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Well we don't know how many are adults here. But yes.

It seems like Ren didn't get that i used his own "tactics" if you can call it that after the mirror part. And that post makes him ragequit. Shows how annoying his style of posts is.

Added: all 8 points are things Ren never does. If anything he is a great bad example.

Honestly the best thing about Endwalker is this thread, it's full of bad takes and hilarity.