Bard - they broke my job

1239 DPS Bard in A1

Didn't they break the Bard job? That guy just did 1239 DPS.

Things I would change is remove the 15 second cooldown on WM to make it instant switch between on/off and vice versa. I would remove the practically worthless single target pre-esuna WP and instead replace with a party wide song effect like haste or slight HP regen which would enhance the support role in an appropriate way. Especially in regard to the party wide effect of the song, I mean single target song SE really?...and one that has no purpose in 99.99% of the game? I would also like SE to fix the issue with oGCD's/GCD's and procs plus skills cast times in which they have become overly complex in weaving through rotations and cast times making it too easy to screw up.

I am in favor of making the mechanics of the fights complex but not the making rotations and weaving skills the biggest factor in that complexity personally. The primary reason I will be dropping bard as my main is due to the fact I now have to spend 90-100% of in-combat time staring at 10% of the screen aka my shortcut bars because of what feels like the randomness of procs, so many oGCD and GCD's to juggle and manage, addition of cast timers on some ~yet not all~ skills through a rotation and no stable rotations after the initial opening sequence. It's not fun anymore for me being what feels like forced to play the game staring just at my shortcut bars 24/7 in order to effectively manage it all.

I also wonder if SE are adding too many new skills in general with the addition of new content these days and in future possibly something to be concerned about..I remember when only needed one shorcut bar to manage rotations, then became two, then three and now it's almost four or on some classes more than four full bars to weave the skill rotations and that I think it is getting a bit too complex for the sake of added complexity and not added fun. I felt 2 or 3 was about the right amount then using mechanics of the fight to add complexity not just tacking on an ever increasing number of skills but I foresee that number increasing until everyone has like 10 full shortcut bars in order to weave their rotations for optimal DPS. It's just something that concerns me, even those who enjoy this kind of complexity will have a saturation point at some stage where becomes too complex.

Overall I have found the bard class to be less enjoyable these days due to the new skills and change in play style post 3.0 but not enough to ditch the class completely never to play again since I might from time to time play it but I don't enjoy it as much anymore and might enjoy making a different class my main. I have ninja lvl 43~ish and monk around 54~ish so wouldn't take long to cap those and gear them instead. But I am thinking of switching my focus from DoW/DoM and making all the DoL/DoH classes my primary focus...switching to DoW/DoM only to unlock new content, do story and get objects which DoL/DoH cannot on their own but I feel as though I will need a main DoW/DoM to do that of which just won't be bard main anymore.

Sure some people might like the changes to bard, maybe enjoy it more and good for them but not everyone agrees and people should respect that instead of insulting them with snide comments about their ability to play the class or insulting them because simply asked for changes that would make it more enjoyable for them. To me personally the class has not become unplayable or so bad that I would drop it completely and never touch again but it has changed so much that it no longer 'as enjoyable' as it was pre-3.0. So I will finishing leveling my NIN and MNK to 60, maybe try out MCH and perhaps DRK/SMN and finish leveling my BLM but long term I do not see BRD as being my main much longer.

In the end I pay the same subscription fee as those who do enjoy it more since 3.0, I have played since 1.0 and bard has been my main in this game for a very long time. I am neither bad using at the class or bad at doing content with it but I do enjoy it less now so I would appreciate it if the snide and asinine comments are kept at bay. I have every right to say I do not enjoy it as much any more and every right to try others see if they are more enjoyable enough to become my new main, it is not because I cannot adapt and it is not because I am bad at playing bard. The fact is I just don't enjoy it as much after 3.0 and the new changes haven't resolved that.

These days to be honest I enjoy crafting and gathering more so than DoW/DoM but obviously I still need a capped and geared DoW/DoM to unlock new content so my hands are tied in that regard plus I always want to play through new story at least once so will always need a DoW/DoM main to do such things. As it stands right now I am leaning towards NIN filling that role in future but want to give other jobs a try too. I don't hate bard post-3.0 but I don't enjoy it as much so it is not unreasonable for me to try a different class to find my next main without some people insulting me or making snide comments about my ability to adapt or play it. Even if I was best bard in world (not claiming I am), if no longer is enjoyable it wouldn't make me a bad bard for no longer using it as my main due to SE class/job changes. :)

Even CS has 5 sec cooldown. Instant toggle would make minuet broken as hell.

Fools seem to fail understand that A1 has 2 TARGETS.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

1239 DPS Bard in A1

Didn't they break the Bard job? That guy just did 1239 DPS.

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But still pretty much dependent on DRG for any kind of that dps.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

1239 DPS Bard in A1

Didn't they break the Bard job? That guy just did 1239 DPS.

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Not dissing his damage or skill.
But that's a 2:40 speed kill in a fight perfectly catered for bard.

Double dot + lots of free misery ends on adds, dummy dps friendly, dragoon in party short enough before main burst of damage even falls off and still outdpsed by his party member.

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Originally Posted by kalasnikov

Fools seem to fail understand that A1 has 2 TARGETS.

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So you're saying this Dragoon cannot Chaos Thrust 2 targets or Dragonfire Dive? This Monk can't Demolish both targets and Howling Fist? This Summoner can't bane DoTs? These healers can't DoTs both targets? You get where I'm going. Saying there's two targets and the Bard can multidot is a piss poor argument aobut a Bard that was second DPS in a 2 minutes 40 seconds fight.

It personally took me time to get used to the new BLM. I don't see why BRDs can't do the same.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Not dissing his damage or skill.
But that's a 2:40 speed kill in a fight perfectly catered for bard.

Double dot + lots of free misery ends on adds, dummy dps friendly, dragoon in party short enough before main burst of damage even falls off and still outdpsed by his party member.

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Every time someone is given a reason that Bards arent this broken mess, its just dismissed offhand. They do really good damage now, espically considering that they are still a support DPS. Like seriously, quit bitching.

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

Every time someone is given a reason that Bards arent this broken mess, its just dismissed offhand. They do really good damage now, espically considering that they are still a support DPS. Like seriously, quit bitching.

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Finally a backup <3

Honestly, I don't care about your community Bards. But there is one thing I do see and you guys spawned an awful whine thread about Bards for 77 pages so far that achieved absolutely nothing. If you'd invest all that time how to maximize and play the Job properly, the community would do much better. It's beyond me that you keep crying after the producer told you it's doing fine and it's because you haven't figured out the Job yet you are behind. And that 2mins 40secs video of that Bard second DPS at 1239 behind the top DPS who has 1239 DPS is the proof your job is not broken and you use the weakest argument of life. "There's 2 targets." This applies to everybody in the party, not just Bards.

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

Every time someone is given a reason that Bards arent this broken mess, its just dismissed offhand. They do really good damage now, espically considering that they are still a support DPS. Like seriously, quit bitching.

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And every time someone posts misleading info people that don't play the class come and defend it as hard evidence, disregarding facts as bitching.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

And every time someone posts misleading info people that don't play the class come and defend it as hard evidence, disregarding facts as bitching.

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I don't play the job but I can tell that saying it's because there's 2 mobs the Bard can top DPS like that is a bull load of crap. It applies to everybody. It would change nothing if it was 1 target, this Bard would still be high DPS.

This Just proves you know NOTHING about bards. Why is it always black mages with biggest issues with bards? With 2 target up as already been stated, blood letter procs are insane, and if targets are in close proximity, you make it even more insane with rain of death (100 times targets). People complaining bards having good dps in SUPER casual raids in fights with multiple targets and fast burst are just sad.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

And every time someone posts misleading info people that don't play the class come and defend it as hard evidence, disregarding facts as bitching.

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What misleading info? A bard had a good parse in a fight with a dragoon that had multiple targets to attack. Thats not misleading, but once again you try and shy away from real evidence that yes- bard is in a good spot right now (If you are a good player.. which im guessing...)

Many jobs can take advantage of that AoE, infact all of them can inflate their damage. Even if it was a single target fight the bard WOULD STILL BE DOING GOOD DAMAGE. Want to know why i know that? I play with Bards that are good at what they do.

At this point its a L2P issue.

I know that there is a group of people saying that the DPS is broken, but that isn't the actual issue. BRD feels unwieldy and poorly designed when using WM. The class, when not in WM, consists of weaving the many off GCD abilities available in between GCD. When using WM, you end up staring at a bunch of abilities you can't weave in because the casting cuts into off gcd time by half. It's incredibly jarring to switch into and simply feels like bad mechanics. Sure you can make it work, but for many it simply isn't fun. Bards go from hitting 1.5x as many keys as other dps to slowing to a crawl comparatively.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I don't play the job but I can tell that saying it's because there's 2 mobs the Bard can top DPS like that is a bull load of crap. It applies to everybody. It would change nothing if it was 1 target, this Bard would still be high DPS.

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You'r ignoring the picture to enforce your argument though.

Lets look at which class had the highest initial burst pre 3.0? That's right bard.
Now they've lost some of that, but their initial burst is still damn high.

Now lets look at who scales the best from buff at the start of a fight because they got so many buffs to stack with other party members buffs?
That's right it's the bard.
That crit rate of 36% dragoon crit buff coming up for 20sec of that 2:40 sec parse, guess who scales insanely well with crit? That's right bard.

2:40 clear time, guess who starts to drop off the hardest beyond the 2min+ mark?
That's right bard.

Saying there are two targets and everyone would make use of that it's silly, because who has one of the best scaling from multi targeting? (Beyond the SMN, but short kill time actually works against SMN)
That's right bard scales amazingly well from multi dotting and even harder because of bonus crit from DRG on short parse.

Let lone as posted above me, the actual problem is the way bard has to do this damage in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

SNip.

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Your argument is invalid.

Everybody scales from Battle Litany.

Black Mage burst higher than Bards. (I have bursted for 2379 DPS on a dummy with no party, just myself)

Everybody scales extremely high from stacking buffs. BLM with Voiced Foe, RS, Potion, TA, Battle Litany, Leylines, Enochian and Selene goes from 1x damage to 1.6632. They also gain 18% Attack speed from Leylines and Fey Winds and they get 15% Crit. If you look at the base 280 Potency from F4. It goes to 504 with Astral Fire III. With 1.6632 multiplier, it goes to 838.2528 Potency per F4. I cast 6 of those also and I did not mention that Potion I use that is multiplied by everything.

You scale well with Crit and that's good for your job. Saying that SMN lose from short fights is also invalid. Summoners have the biggest AoE arsenal in the game right now. Bane, Painflare, Deathflare, Shadowflare, Miasma II.

If Demolish is on both targets, Rockbreaker from Monks is better than Snap Punch and is viable because it's 2 minutes and 40 seconds.

You are trying to find flaws where there is not. If a Bard can do as much damage than another job in a fight, regardless 1 or 2 mobs, the job is not broken.

*edits*

Out of curiosity, do you have any maths or theorycraft to proof that Bard is actually behind Machinists and need to be fixed? If you don't, that's like 3 strikes friend.

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Originally Posted by KaelDrakkal

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Indeed. For me (and many others) the freedom of movement was the big thing i loved about bard, loved it while clearing coils and savages. Loved it In dungeons, loved it everywhere. In dummies bard was the lowest dps, but it didnt matter as bard was fun and useful class to play. Adding minuet is literally a death sentence to the class and playstyle we all loved. Blackmages still cast, melees still move freely, but bards get bolted to the ground with cast times taking away the beauty of the bard. Machinist was built for that way of gameplay with all the procs and ammo to give back the mobility against bards 20% on 1 skill. Bard is not fun anymore. Minuet is bad design , and no bloody "high dps" parse wont change it. If i wanted to cast, i would have swap to black mage.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Your argument is invalid.

Everybody scales from Battle Litany.

Black Mage burst higher than Bards. (I have bursted for 2379 DPS on a dummy with no party, just myself)

Everybody scales extremely high from stacking buffs. BLM with Voiced Foe, RS, Potion, TA, Battle Litany, Leylines, Enochian and Selene goes from 1x damage to 1.6632. They also gain 18% Attack speed from Leylines and Fey Winds and they get 15% Crit. If you look at the base 280 Potency from F4. It goes to 504 with Astral Fire III. With 1.6632 multiplier, it goes to 838.2528 Potency per F4. I cast 6 of those also and I did not mention that Potion I use that is multiplied by everything.

You scale well with Crit and that's good for your job. Saying that SMN lose from short fights is also invalid. Summoners have the biggest AoE arsenal in the game right now. Bane, Painflare, Deathflare, Shadowflare, Miasma II.

If Demolish is on both targets, Rockbreaker from Monks is better than Snap Punch and is viable because it's 2 minutes and 40 seconds.

You are trying to find flaws where there is not. If a Bard can do as much damage than another job in a fight, regardless 1 or 2 mobs, the job is not broken.

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To begin with I was discussing how the damage was compared to the other dps.
Second there was no blackmage in there and I was pointing out highest burst pre 3.0 if you read I point out it dropped now but it is still very high burst.
Third pointing out they managed to do good damage doesn't keep in account how the job actually plays, rather that it's possible to do highly obnoxious things to put out good numbers so numbers alone don't mean a job is fine.

Some bonus points, someone scaling from crit doesn't equal scaling well from crit. Bard gains a free OGCD attack every time they crit with a dot, having two targets with 2 dots on each with increased crit rate is 4x scaling on dots sure other jobs get that too, but bard scales another 4 times because of proccing bloodletters more that's a different tier of scaling compared to any other job.

Turn 10 back in the day bard could be highest dps easily during the add phase unless (you were doing the aoe strat for BLM/SMN by bane/flare/holy) why? Because Bards scale so well on multi mob fights.
That part did not change.

The part where bard had their playstyle thrown around however and feels like shit even though you can outpud numbers which this point is about require perfect settings to be on par with others where they should be due to playstyle change is.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

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BLM was still bursting for 1.1k pre 3.0 I've seen bards at 1k+ but yeah. That's debatable.

That's unfortunate there was no BLM because I would have pummeled that parse :p

So you are saying that a stat is better for your Job. How does this proof that Bards are broken?

In T10, if you were in farm content, you were smart to multi DoT. This remind me how I was using Chaos Trust on my Dragoon on two of them then use Elusive jump to go on the other pack to Chaos Trust.

The only reason why you feel Bard is bad is because they lost their full-time mobility. This means if you have to move, you have to put Wanderer's Minuet away as SE intended to make this skill work. This means you won't have 100% up time WM and it's fine to stance dance that way, it will split the average and good bards.

You have ignored my last question. Do you have theorycraft behind all your claims how Bard is a broken job and needs help? I would actually like to have information since I am thinking of leveling Bard. No whine, actual information.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

BLM was still bursting for 1.1k pre 3.0 I've seen bards at 1k+ but yeah. That's debatable.

That's unfortunate there was no BLM because I would have pummeled that parse :p

So you are saying that a stat is better for your Job. How does this proof that Bards are broken?

In T10, if you were in farm content, you were smart to multi DoT. This remind me how I was using Chaos Trust on my Dragoon on two of them then use Elusive jump to go on the other pack to Chaos Trust.

The only reason why you feel Bard is bad is because they lost their full-time mobility. This means if you have to move, you have to put Wanderer's Minuet away as SE intended to make this skill work. This means you won't have 100% up time WM and it's fine to stance dance that way, it will split the average and good bards.

You have ignored my last question. Do you have theorycraft behind all your claims how Bard is a broken job and needs help? I would actually like to have information since I am thinking of leveling Bard. No whine, actual information.

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I've bursted 1,1k+ pre 3.0 too with the normal bard opener so lets leave that as undecided.

About the stat being better for bards. It's the scaling that multiplies the more crit + targets you have.
Lets look at other jobs 1 target is worth 1 damage, with crit its 1,5 then two targets worth 2 damage and with crit 3 but for bard every of those targets add that basic damage and then increase your bloodletter procs by another multiplier (think black mage thunder procs, but at a much better rate).
I wasn not pointing out that this makes the bard broken, I was pointing out that it makes Alex T1 an amazing bard fight to boost the numbers more so than the other jobs, making the bard numbers look better than they actually are on most fights.

As for my issues with bard, it's not actually the loss of mobility. It's the implementation of how this is done. 11 OGCD's + one resetting non stop, require for a rotation that feels very clunky and destroys the flow of how bard was played before.
The change of playstyle is not something I'm a fan of, but it's not something I can't get used to, I can imagine a lot of bards hating it much more than I do though because it's a drastic change compared to non WM play which basically isn't building on top of the class but changing the class.

Sorry I didn't ignore your last question you edited that in while I was already writing a reply.

The bard needs help with the flow of the skills, not the damage, not mobility (although other bards would disagree even more because they strongly feel that they'r missing what they signed for in the loss of mobility).
I am also hating on the playstyle change, especially because the main 50+ skills are basically a copy paste from MCH which lowers the option of choice rather than increases it.

So for theory crafting It takes about 1,5s to cast a skill. Every 12 seconds you get Empyrean Arrow which is OGCD, but has a 1,5ish cast time too. Then you got a non stop flow of Bloodletter which can proc again while you'r casting.
What does this mean? Bloodletter > Heavy Shot because during heavy shot cast Bloodletter can proc. Now lets say I'm casting Heavy Shot then Bloodletter that's all the room I have for OGCD's. Yet I got a ton of buffs lined up and bloodletter resetting on top and there's Empyrean Arrow coming off cooldown too. There is no room to fit skills properly without cutting into GCD's.

That's not the end of it though. There's Flaming arrow, which is a very underrated skill, but ends up doing a higher % of damage than most bards realize. This skill is placed on the floor, but can't be pre queued before a cast finishes, so by the time your cast finishes and you get to queue it up you still need to place it on the floor, pretty much guaranteeing to cut a little into your GCD.

Lets look at the new Barrage on the side too, not even going into numbers on how exactly it's nerfed (especially vs quad barrage) but lets look at how it is used now. You would always want to use this before the strongest weaponskill for obvious reasons. The strongest weapon skill is Empyreal Arrow. Empyreal Arrow is already OGCD. I just explained how there is only room for 1 OGCD in normal cases. But before you do EMP arrow with Barrage you need to basically do 2 where EMP arrow also has a cast time which basically double cuts into your GCD unless you had a Straight Shot proc (Think Fire3 proc pre3.0 which is 20% chance per Heavy Shot used think Fire 1) then in that time Bloodletter most likely has procce'd which goes before HS because it can proc again during HS cast which means you delay your GCD even more.

It's not me whining about mobility. Not even whining about damage potential here although from what I just wrote, I am of the opinion that if we'r not going to get changes the damage gain from WM needs to be higher to compensate for a playstyle like this.

As for MCH vs BRD, MCH straight up parse higher on dummy and dummy like bosses than any BRD I have seen and asked during the same time of progression of the classes starting from hitting 60 up to now. I would love to show you numbers but I do not save those things so that would require quite a lot of effort to look them up for you again and I don't like you enough to put even more effort than I am already doing in this reply, but even here numbers can easily be tweaked by changing potencies up or down a little bit. What bard needs is not a numbers change, it needs to fix the mess that is our OGCD's in WM.

As to how to fix it, casting OGCD's during casts would go a long way (obviously tweaking numbers accordingly afterward).

Something I'd personally love is having WM not be a copy of Gauss Barrel and instead of giving cast times make our skills 3 or 5 yalm range to play as a melee during the song uptime.
Because on a bard being a melee but having no cast time wouldn't actually break the skill flow. Where MCH kit was already made to work with the class (MCH does need a couple QoL changes too tho).

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

So for theory crafting It takes about 1,5s to cast a skill.

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I think you've answered your question. 1 GCD is 2.5 seconds, you have your window there.

You are also not the only one on this boat. I personally hard cast RS + Potion so I lose time and it feels weird but the damage is here.

A stat does not magically makes a certain fight better. I still fail to understand why you think A1 doesn't reflect the reality. Everybody gets more DPS on 2 targets and stat weights does not matter. You multidot on 2 targets as a Bard like a Summoner would. Like a BLM would Flare at the end of his rotation or a Dragoon would Chaos Trust both targets.

Well, the Bard on the video is form your Free Company, maybe you should ask him.

If you fail to perform like other Bards, the producer did mention Bard was working as intended and to deal with it.

I'm sorry about the question earlier but you still didn't answer it. I see no math that prove Bard is broken right now. There is no PPS (Potency per Second) You do not show with maths why Bard feels clunky. From what you told me, your skills take 1.5 seconds but triggers a 2.5 seconds GCD. It's enough for 1 OGCD. If multiple CDs happen and you have low latency, you could probably inset 2 OGCD losing minimal time. I personally don't see the problem. I'd love to have my spells be 1.5 secs and trigger a 2.5 GCD, unfortunately the BLM spam spell is a 3 seconds cast time. If I can deal with it along with my OGCD, I don't think you have the right to complain. Even if you have 11 OGCD.

If I were you, I'd try to math out the lost on OGCD before doing any claim :\ I would also question the Bard in my FC that is doing 1239 DPS in A1 what he is doing.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I'd love to have my spells be 1.5 secs and trigger a 2.5 GCD, unfortunately the BLM spam spell is a 3 seconds cast time. If I can deal with it along with my OGCD, I don't think you have the right to complain. Even if you have 11 OGCD.

If I were you, I'd try to math out the lost on OGCD before doing any claim :\ I would also question the Bard in my FC that is doing 1239 DPS in A1 what he is doing.

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I think that people who dont play a specific class or understand how it works need to stop commenting on said class. The amount of willful ignorance in this thread is staggering.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I think you've answered your question. 1 GCD is 2.5 seconds, you have your window there.

You are also not the only one on this boat. I personally hard cast RS + Potion so I lose time and it feels weird but the damage is here.

A stat does not magically makes a certain fight better. I still fail to understand why you think A1 doesn't reflect the reality. Everybody gets more DPS on 2 targets and stat weights does not matter. You multidot on 2 targets as a Bard like a Summoner would. Like a BLM would Flare at the end of his rotation or a Dragoon would Chaos Trust both targets.

Well, the Bard on the video is form your Free Company, maybe you should ask him.

If you fail to perform like other Bards, the producer did mention Bard was working as intended and to deal with it.

I'm sorry about the question earlier but you still didn't answer it. I see no math that prove Bard is broken right now. There is no PPS (Potency per Second) You do not show with maths why Bard feels clunky. From what you told me, your skills take 1.5 seconds but triggers a 2.5 seconds GCD. It's enough for 1 OGCD. If multiple CDs happen and you have low latency, you could probably inset 2 OGCD losing minimal time. I personally don't see the problem. I'd love to have my spells be 1.5 secs and trigger a 2.5 GCD, unfortunately the BLM spam spell is a 3 seconds cast time. If I can deal with it along with my OGCD, I don't think you have the right to complain. Even if you have 11 OGCD.

If I were you, I'd try to math out the lost on OGCD before doing any claim :\ I would also question the Bard in my FC that is doing 1239 DPS in A1 what he is doing.

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Okay you got your RS+Pot now compare it to this. These are the bard OGCD skills weaved into the normal rotation.

[Battle Voice] 300sec, [Pot] 270 sec, [RS] 120sec & [Invigorate] 120, (possibly a poison pot 108sec), [HE] & [Barrage] 90sec, [B4B] 80sec, [Sidewinder], [IR] & [Flaming Arrow] 60sec, [Blunt] & [Repelling] 30sec, [Bloodletter] 15sec [Resets 1-2 times per cooldown on average], [Empyreal Arrow] 12sec + Below 20%target hp [Misery End] 12sec.

Lets add that up That's 15 OGCD's right there. 16 if you use poison pot. Tell me again how you loose some damage from using your RS+Pot and how that compares to using 16 OGCD's.
Now lets look again at your pot and raging strikes cooldown shall we? 270sec and 120sec.
Now lets look at what happens with bard every 12 seconds? An OGCD with 1,5sec cast time and if below 20% hp Misery end on same cooldown.
Now lets look at Bloodletter, happens every 15sec guranteed averaging somewhere below two resets per cooldown so about one Bloodletter per 7,5seconds?
Flaming Arrow? Needs to cut into your GCD every 60sec.

Now lets align some skills shall we?
Straight shot needs to be kept up every 17sec. Iron Jaws needs to refresh dots every 15sec.

So every 17seconds you spend casting 2 GCD's at the end of their timer which you most of the time can not delay (by much).

So there are only 15seconds in which you could delay your GCD's as you please.

There are average-ish 2 Bloodletter procs and 1 EA to cast in that time + Misery End when target is below 20%.
Every other set of 15sec there would be Repeling (which is now only cast when SS procs) and Blunt arrow.
1/4 of the time IR and Sidewinder are up for these timeslots.
Now lets see what happens at that point already?
Every 1/4 of these 15sec windows you will have to fit in 6 OGCD's or 7 if Misery is up.
Every 1/7 of these windows you'd have 9 OGCD's to fit in that time 10 if Misery is up.
Every 1/9 of these windows you'd have to fit in 10 or 11 if misery is up and 12 if poison pot becomes a thing again.

Now a window of 15 allows you 6 OGCD windows with this cast time or if you count fitting them in after the two unmovable GCD's it's 8 OGCD spots at best.

1/9 of the time it doesn't fit by 4-6 OGCD's
1/7 of the time it doesn't fit by 3-4 OGCD's
1/4 of the time it possibly doesn't fit by 1 OGCD

Now lets look at Bloodletter again since it seems you don't know how this skill works and question me why crit scales better on bard.

Delivers an attack with a potency of 150. Instant - Recast 15sec.
Comes with this trait: River of Blood
Grants a 50% chance that critical damage over time inflicted by Venmous Bite or Windbite will reset the Bloodletter recast timer.

A bard will always keep the 2 dots going, so every dot tick there is 2x a chance for a dot to crit and 50% chance on every of those crits to reset the Bloodletter cooldown. Since it's 2 dots this averages into 100% trait activation per crit of your dots so the reset of Bloodletter happens basically as often as your critical chance on your dots.

What happens when there are two targets? The Bloodletter proc rate is doubled. The extra damage you get from your dots is already ticking on the 2nd add, but now on top of that you gain a doubled proc rate which is on a single target a huge part of the bard damage as it is. The other classes only benefit from their dots/aoe's being up on two targets where the bard actually benefits by doubling a proc chance on top of the damage already going out on the two targets.

Now back to the GCD's and OGCD's. Bloodletter is a proc based OGCD you can not account for when it procs exactly and you want to keep the chance of proccing it going. To do this you need to use it, because when it's off GCD proccing it won't give you an extra Bloodletter but just waste it. What does this mean, that if Bloodletter proc aligned with you casting any other skill the Bloodletter will take the OGCD spot most likely, If this happens during EA cast which was already cutting into GCD it will delay the GCD even more. When a GCD gets delayed your little window for OGCD's gets smaller. As you can see 1/4 of the time you already have no proper window for delays.

The bard being in my FC and me complaining has very little to do with my skill or performance. I am not asking for numbers, I am asking for gameplay improvements. You pointing out any numbers does not change the gameplay whatsoever especially when you don't actually play bard yourself and do not want to listen to the issues however badly I am at presenting them.

I perform beyond the average bard, can parse 1k on that dummy, but that doesn't change my issue whatsoever. Although you seem to not be willing to understand and bring the discussion back to dps numbers where a game is not only about dps numbers.

As a long time bard player and with having cleared A1 enough to know the feel of the fight on the new bard, I know what I mean when I point out A1 as a flaw to show bard performance check as the fight is tailored for bards.

As for your Fire 4 on 3sec cast, that's a nice argument to enforce your point, only you leave out the fact that it's below 2,5sec when using Ley Lines.
But apparently you don't mind adjusting your points for the sake of your argument yet I need to give you extended proof for my arguments even though you don't play bard whatsoever and you know better how bards should feel about the class then players that played it for a long time?
Then you throw in some bonus jabs at my performance on the bard and throw in my FC mates performance which when pointed out why it is why it is apparently isn't true because I had other complaints before that don't even have to do with the actual dps numbers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Snip

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That's some hero math right there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KaelDrakkal

That's some hero math right there.

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I just want to more dakka with bloodletter (or RoD since thats a thing now) on my bard. Getting those string of procs and weaving all those oGCD was what made it fun for me. I don't understand why people are doing all this number crafting for a drastic playstyle change, especially when their concern isn't even the damage numbers to begin with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

...I'd love to have my spells be 1.5 secs and trigger a 2.5 GCD, unfortunately the BLM spam spell is a 3 seconds cast time. If I can deal with it along with my OGCD, I don't think you have the right to complain. Even if you have 11 OGCD..

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I don't think BLM has any oGCD damage abilities though? The fact that someone has 11 oGCD, esp if it's their damage skill, kinda does make it important that they can weave it effectively.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

Let lone as posted above me, the actual problem is the way bard has to do this damage in the first place.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

As for my issues with bard, it's not actually the loss of mobility. It's the implementation of how this is done. 11 OGCD's + one resetting non stop, require for a rotation that feels very clunky and destroys the flow of how bard was played before.

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I'm going to quote these for emphasis, since some people haven't picked up on this, it seems. And yes, the main issue with BRD is how these changes were implemented.

11) Bard has changed a lot since the release of 3.0, but the developers say that the players have some time to get used to the new style. In the future, the content they need to be able to adapt to the fight.

NO thx, if i wish play caster i switch to SMN. Good bye bard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardpony

11) Bard has changed a lot since the release of 3.0, but the developers say that the players have some time to get used to the new style. In the future, the content they need to be able to adapt to the fight.

NO thx, if i wish play caster i switch to SMN. Good bye bard

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Then do it. No one cares that you refuse to adapt.

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Originally Posted by pinder2009

Then do it. No one cares that you refuse to adapt.

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Speak for yourself, I care.

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Originally Posted by KaelDrakkal

I think that people who dont play a specific class or understand how it works need to stop commenting on said class. The amount of willful ignorance in this thread is staggering.

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I think Bard is quite a simple job rotation wise. That always depends on the person.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

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You fail to provide any Potency per second (PPS) if your argument. If you have too many OGCD, the obvious plan of action is to take a priority list for the biggest Potency move. This is where you should work on. There are scenairo that are obvious. Bloodletter > Blunt.

I'd also believe Poison Potion is a DPS lost for you if you can't move. It is only 250 damage. This applies to Repelling Shot as well. Then again, everybody is right when they say I don't play this job so I have no idea what I'm saying but since you can't provide any theory or maths of the potency on a spreadsheet that have detailed maths you actually don't have arguments against me.

It seems the main issue why this thread is still bleeding crying is a lack of OGCD management which usually is on the player side, not the job itself and this can be worked and improved. For the love of God, there's a Bard that almost top DPS a speed kill video that is from you FC, I remind you, and dealt 1239 DPS. Claiming 2 targets is not an argument as it is part of the fight and that its apply to everybody in the party since they stacked them.

If you intend to keep crying without seeing the obvious proofs, maybe Bard is not for you and you should abandon it. This reminds me a lot of the Summoner in 2.4 that would invest more time crying on their sake then working together to maximize the job. The exception is they actually had a valid reason in 2.4 because of MP. You do not have issue outside of an OGCD management. There's also the last point and I do not wish to attack or insult anyone but... WM actually requires you to pay attention and split the average with the good Bards. This is similar to Enochian for BLM, it separates the good and average BLMs. Fortunately personal skills can be worked on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I think Bard is quite a simple job rotation wise. That always depends on the person.



You fail to provide any Potency per second (PPS) if your argument. If you have too many OGCD, the obvious plan of action is to take a priority list for the biggest Potency move. This is where you should work on. There are scenairo that are obvious. Bloodletter > Blunt.

I'd also believe Poison Potion is a DPS lost for you if you can't move. It is only 250 damage. This applies to Repelling Shot as well. Then again, everybody is right when they say I don't play this job so I have no idea what I'm saying but since you can't provide any theory or maths of the potency on a spreadsheet that have detailed maths you actually don't have arguments against me.

It seems the main issue why this thread is still bleeding crying is a lack of OGCD management which usually is on the player side, not the job itself and this can be worked and improved. For the love of God, there's a Bard that almost top DPS a speed kill video that is from you FC, I remind you, and dealt 1239 DPS. Claiming 2 targets is not an argument as it is part of the fight and that its apply to everybody in the party since they stacked them.

If you intend to keep crying without seeing the obvious proofs, maybe Bard is not for you and you should abandon it. This reminds me a lot of the Summoner in 2.4 that would invest more time crying on their sake then working together to maximize the job. The exception is they actually had a valid reason in 2.4 because of MP. You do not have issue outside of an OGCD management. There's also the last point and I do not wish to attack or insult anyone but... WM actually requires you to pay attention and split the average with the good Bards. This is similar to Enochian for BLM, it separates the good and average BLMs. Fortunately personal skills can be worked on.

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There you go again, pointing at dps numbers and the bard in FC.
I can keep up with the other bards just fine. And there are plenty of us that can play the bard in its new state.
But guess what, we are playing the game to enjoy it not to just put up the dps numbers in whichever state we are.

There are obvious priorities with gcd's/ogcd's. However you keep failing to understand the issue of bard playstyle that I am pointing at. It used to flow. Now it doesn't flow.

It's a playstyle issue, not potency per second, not dps all of that can easily be tweaked in case it is not on par, however the playstyle won't be as easily tweaked again and I don't want the bard to be thrown into a pre 3.0 Black Mage copy where the bard just like the BLM gets to ignore I don't know how many of their skills because they do absolutely nothing or have minimal situational use, that's not just shitting on the bards playstyle in the sense of movement, but also in the sense of how the job flows.

I am not sure how someone can promote homogenization to the point where we'r going to have Black, Gun and Bow mages with pretty much the only difference between them being aesthetics if it continues on.

So yea playstyle, no issues with cast times, do have issues with implementation of said cast times into the job kit.
No further numbers needed.

Also telling someone that enjoyed a job for the past two years to just go and reroll instead of trying to imrove it where it is enjoyable again to the actual players that picked that job in the first place and in many cases were playing the game because of that job is pretty shortsighted.

But I'm not sure if I can add a number to how shortsighted it is, so not sure if you will get my point there either.

EDIT: First time I get to experience a daily post limit on here so I will use this post to add my final say for today.

I ll throw in some bonus fixes that I think would improve the bard in WM and would require as little as possible chaning to how they work (focusing on number tweaks rather than mechanical ones as much as possible)

- Remove potency from Repelling Shot - make this a pure movement ability obviously put the potency somewhere elese. (Like back into Emperyal Arrow, Sidewinder or Bloodletter). Also add 10 yalm to the range from where you can activate it.
- Remove potency from Blunt Arrow - make this a pure cc ability obviously put the potency somewhere else. (Like back into Emperyal Arrow, Sidewinder or Bloodletter)
- Flaming Arrow castable even when casting other skills. Or if not possible to do that then: Flaming arrow is now a targeted skill that places the same aoe circle under the main target.
- Barrage has two modes now. The current one when in WM. And the old (but improved to compensate det nerf and lower potency outside of WM) 3 bonus auto attacks (so 4 vs old 3) when out of WM.
- Bloodletter is now usable during the cast of other skills. Or: Blooldetter can now store up to 2 charges when it proc's. (The double (or even tripple) charge stack would be more interesting)
- Heavy Shot has not only the current proc for Straight Shot but also removes the TP cost of Straight Shot when the proc happens and also has a 40% chance to proc Straight Shot vs the current 20%

- Wide Volley has become close to useless and needs a rework. I would personally lower its tp cost, make it single target and make it lower piercing resistance and then add a piercing resistance debuf to machinist too, to balance all physical dps to have their own ability of debuffing targets.

- Waren's Paen (The lvl 58 skill that is useless) needs some reworks. Make it last 45 seconds (so at the very least it has use pre-pull on warrior). Preferably go beyond just that though add actual esuna effect to it so it can be used to cure ailments not just hope you will prevent one in the next 30 seconds when it comes with a 3sec cast time. Or just look at it again really hard and make something more useful out of it than it is right now at least. If we'r copying BLM's why not make it a Physical Damage Apocastasis kinda thing instead.

Now after these changes would happen, some potency tweaking would be needed once again, but that's fine, potencies are the lowest concerns right now smoothing out the bard skill flow to actually be an enjoyable flow is priority.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

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So you are saying the Job is not broken and is viable for raid and it's a playstyle complain? Because the thread's name is "Bard - they broke my job" the reason I insisted on numbers.

I personally enjoy the game to maximize my performance and numbers and I wouldn't expect everyone to feel the same. You can't use the word "we" because I would enjoy the level 60 Bard.

They changed the playstyle of the job you've played for the past 2 years. They did the same for my BLM and I have to deal with annoying stacks like Monks are while dealing with movement. I adjusted. If you can't stand then looking elsewhere is probably the best option for you. I do agree the 180 degree playstyle from Bard is rough but right now the Job works and nobody from your community seems to care to make a thread to see what you can do to deal with that playstyle. You'd rather cry until your body is dehydrated. BLM complained and cried a lot at the beginning and I include myself because I was pissed about the playstyle change of BLM but we got over it and adjust I don't see why Bards can't. On this domain, we are similar.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

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They added onto blackmage gameplay by adding new abilities which function similar in concept. It's harder to manage for some people because windows are tigher, and you need to plan ahead to stay within ley lines. But the general flow of blm gameplay remains the same.

A better comparison would be that the only way you can swap from astral to umbral during enochian is through the use of tranpose, and tranpose can only be done at zero or max mana. Fire spells would sitll have the same mana cost, but oyu can still cast it even if you don't have enough mana to get yourself to 0. It sounds ideal in paper, but in actual gameplay its incredibly clumsy and its an utter slowdown compared to using fire III/blizzard III's half second cast time from umbral/astral to switch because now half the time you're sitting around waiting for mana ticks with 1 stack of umbral ice to have mana for your next blizzard, THEN waiting for tranpose cooldown because you're going to be reaching max mana in less than ten seconds.

Or you can not use enochian and play BLM as it was before those changes, but now your dps is balanced around using enochian. And even if you do happen to like that playstyle, people would probably be upset at how it's made to handle like that and flipping over a core BLM mechanic (that is, utilizing umbral/astral efficently through fire/blizzard spells, not twiddling their thumbs for tranpose like they would at level 30), when they can probably think of better ways to implement it without messing with what's already there, but instead adding onto it (such as the current version of enochian).

...Or giving summoner the concept of umbral/astral to manage their mana, because they might as well share the same concepts as BLM too as how MCH shares with BRD.

At the very least, try understand that some people (including me) are upset because bard's flow of combat is pretty stupid with WM active and not the numbers/dps. They're fine the way it is, I won't even disagree with that. Its annoying to all hell to see my procs get wasted because I'm in the middle of my cast times, and they happen half way into my cast time much like your firestarter (except straight shot is also a regular part of our prioirty list anyway, so have fun if it straighter shot procs during my straight shot cast). I can play MCH who more or less has the same playstyle as BRD because they're both balanced around utiilizing WM/GB, yet do it better because they're designed to do so, while BRD just gets it slapped on without a thought on how it meshes with their previous gameplay. And these are coming from (or me at least) full time bard mains.

Ok so far the main complaints is the "fluidity" and mobility of the playstyle.

This whole mess with WM and damage and standing still. They gotta remove it.

Damage doesn't really matter to you guys right? Let them be as mobile as they want. Just don't ask for any more damage increase yeah?

Good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

tranpose can only be done at zero or max mana.

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I stopped reading your post when you said that. There is no law that prevent me from using Transpose at full mp to use a F3 Proc when I'm in Umbral Ice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

At the very least, try understand that some people (including me) are upset because bard's flow of combat is pretty stupid with WM active and not the numbers/dps.

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If you can deal the damage you are suppose to then it's up to the player to adapt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Its annoying to all hell to see my procs get wasted because I'm in the middle of my cast times,

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Bro, how many time I got 2 Procs in a row on my 2.x BLM rotation and I never cried to SE to fix it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reneo

Ok so far the main complaints is the "fluidity" and mobility of the playstyle.

This whole mess with WM and damage and standing still. They gotta remove it.

Damage doesn't really matter to you guys right? Let them be as mobile as they want. Just don't ask for any more damage increase yeah?

Good.

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That generalization though. I didn't even ask for more damage back then, and even then, our dps is balanced around using WM anyway to do relatively the same damage as other classes in 2.0. In a nutshell, I am going to be doing less damage if I don't want to use WM.

Not every bard here wanted a damage increase during 2.0. I was pretty content with doing less than melee even on the likes of T13 since they can manage their earthshakers. I was relatively behind them by maybe 5-10% at the most. Right now, end game dps is balanced around utilizing WM/GB effectively to still maintain that 5-10% difference on average. I'm not doing "more damage", I'm busting my ass to do the same as other classes who also obtained new abilities, except I'm having a frustrating hell of a time to do so because my new abilities don't mesh well with how the class was previously designed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

I stopped reading your post when you said that. There is no law that prevent me from using Transpose at full mp to use a F3 Proc when I'm in Umbral Ice.



If you can deal the damage you are suppose to then it's up to the player to adapt.



Bro, how many time I got 2 Procs in a row on my 2.x BLM rotation and I never cried to SE to fix it.

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>You stopped reading, why? I tried to come up with an example so you have an idea on how changing the base gameplay of a class because of an ability added in the expansion can cause problems for players who full time it previously.

>You're still on that...

>But would you agree that it's a design flaw? How about when it happens three-times over because your class clearly was not designed for it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reneo

Damage doesn't really matter to you guys right? Let them be as mobile as they want. Just don't ask for any more damage increase yeah?

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Damage does matter. But the fact of the matter is a great number of career bards do not enjoy this new play style. We can adapt to it, sure. But why adapt to something you don't enjoy? Why turn a video game that you pay to play into a job or a chore? Again, we all pay to play this and therefore ALL of our opinions should matter. Not just the people who enjoy the new play style and not just the people who hate it. All of the "suck it up or quit playing" nonsense is puerile at best. We are allowed to complain about something that strips us of our enjoyment. So while our dps output matters, how much we enjoy playing a game we pay for matters just as much, if not more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

>You stopped reading, why? I tried to come up with an example so you have an idea on how changing the base gameplay of a class because of an ability added in the expansion can cause problems for players who full time it previously.

>You're still on that...

>But would you agree that it's a design flaw? How about when it happens three-times over because your class clearly was not designed for it?

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Because it's stupid to say you can only transpose at 0 MP. Transpose was handy when you had a proc during Umbral Ice to have a 1.4 multiplier F3 instead of 0.7 multiplier. While it may be a flaw to you, this does not decrease your DPS. Imagine a 2.x world where Black Mages were never losing double procs. BLM would have been king. It is not a flaw to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Because it's stupid to say you can only transpose at 0 MP. Transpose was handy when you had a proc during Umbral Ice to have a 1.4 multiplier F3 instead of 0.7 multiplier. While it may be a flaw to you, this does not decrease your DPS. Imagine a 2.x world where Black Mages were never losing double procs. BLM would have been king. It is not a flaw to me.

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So you're saying that if they happen to implement that change for whatever reason, its stupid. That's what I'm getting at if enochian was designed to force you to use tranpose at 0 or max mana =/

And I also doubt that BLMs will see a huge dps increase to the point they'd become "King". It's more of a QoL change to have procs happen when finishing the cast rather than finishing the animation, which is what I'd like for bard because again, MCH does this in the same manner except they're designed for it down to their animation speeds so they don't lose procs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

So you're saying that if they happen to implement that change for whatever reason, its stupid. That's what I'm getting at if enochian was designed to force you to use tranpose at 0 or max mana =/

And I also doubt that BLMs will see a huge dps increase to the point they'd become "King". It's more of a QoL change to have procs happen when finishing the cast rather than finishing the animation, which is what I'd like for bard because again, MCH does this in the same manner except they're designed for it down to their animation speeds so they don't lose procs.

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Trust me. I was only 50 DPS behind melees on my BLM in FCoB. Allow me to never miss a single F3 proc and I would have pummeled melees. While it looked like a flaw, it wasn't. Same can be said for your multiple BL procs.