If you are a WHM without Swiftcast, you are holding back your team at endgame

Everyone should be prepared for endgame content, specially if it's through DF. If you have any doubts about your class, drop by the class forums and ask for advice, there are many good and experienced players around.

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Originally Posted by Noroi_Kisaragi

So your excuse for deliberately holding back your healing potential for your team is...."everyone else in my team should get better"? Stop making excuses and learn Swiftcast. It has many uses beyond just raising, and to make excuses to NOT Learn it while still hoping to participate in endgame is going to get you laughed at, nothing more.

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Asking the entire party to work towards a smooth run instead of relying on a swiftcast raise from the WHM as a crutch isn't an excuse, it's common sense.

I fear this entire discussion is in danger of going off its tracks, so allow me to fix that:

We're all agreeing that Swiftcast is a must-have for WHM/SCHs because of the overwhelming beneficial use. The extra argument about the proper response from a WHM given Swiftcast to when a DPS player makes a stupid and fatal move is entirely out of the scope of the discussion.

The title would have been better with "If you are a WHM without Swiftcast, you do not qualify for end game raid". I also have 7 colleagues playing together and we Skype in dungeons runs. Watching each others' backs means yelling to dodge things and preventing any death for us. I'm not sure why that has to mean instant-res for some :p

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Originally Posted by Tigerwong

The title would have been better with "If you are a WHM without Swiftcast, you do not qualify for end game raid". I also have 7 colleagues playing together and we Skype in dungeons runs. Watching each others' backs means yelling to dodge things and preventing any death for us. I'm not sure why that has to mean instant-res for some :p

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Occasional lag says hello

So many badasses in this thread that never die at endgame.

Just because you're not supposed to die doesn't mean that shit doesn't happen. Not having all the best tools available to you is like being a fire fighter and showing up to a fire with only your water hose because "People are supposed to exit the house when it's burning. I shouldn't need my axe and oxygen mask." Shit happens, be prepared.

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Originally Posted by Arjuna_Deluna

Who are you even talking to? Who in this thread has even said that they don't want Swiftcast or won't get it? Seems like the only problem in this thread is the tone of the people who feel entitled to tell healers how fast they want to be raised.

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The very first reply. Not necessarily saying don't use swiftcast, but implying he should never have to and you are bad if you make him. And other similar sentiments.

Not sure if its been mentioned but...use Medica II as SOON as the guy accepts raise and you will remove his weakness. I didn't know this until someone told me in DF :p.

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Originally Posted by chococo

A good party does not die. But a bad party with instant raise CAN put it up a notch. Why do people always have to argue with the extremes.

So far i've been in DF runs where if the whm had swiftcast raise, the party could've continued and recovered. I was running as smn btw and jnsta raising ppl. I'm seeing people return almost instantly which doesnt help the party at all, and it just seems people either do not have the concept that they could be raised or just gives up raising and saying it wastes time. Wheres the 1.0 spirit gone when half the party is dead and you can still get back up and recover

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I can't count how many PUG Garuda runs I would have won if the Healers had Swiftcast + Raise (and if the Tanks could freakin' position the damn Sisters better but that's not this thread)

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Originally Posted by Slambo

If I'm casting raise YOU are doing it wrong. you show me a fight with a guaranteed 1 shot to someone (every time) and I'll agree with you though.

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You show me a proof that you never died in dungeons and I'll agree with you, genius.

Swiftcast isent just for raises, its for spot heals

If you're too good for swiftcast you're too good to be in my group

try playing monk the correct way in any difficult content and tell me all dps is easy in this game. Whm is brain dead boring and swiftcast is a must for fastcast cures and raises in oh shit moments. There are situations when something can become unavoidable and kill someone regardless of there skill. Too often do i see whms running arouind w/ no swiftcast in lvl50 content and w/ no MP while people are at full health because they dont know how to manage there MP. The only braindead dps class is ARC/BRD it has all the upsides of a ranged and all the dps w/ no drawbacks besides a shitty LB that really doesnt matter.

This thread could have been very very civil and insightful if the OP wasn't rude or rather demanding with his message. His message holds true, WHMs should have swiftcast, but if you say things in a very ill-mannered way, your point won't get across will come off as an know-it-all.

While I do agree that the skill is extremely powerful, in more ways than one. I think it's a DPS' job to dodge everything he can. Now I'm not saying they should dodge all of it, more like do what you can to make it easier for yourself and especially us healers, since everytime you get hit, we spend that cure (mana) on you which could have been saved for cures on tanks, especially since Raise is an expensive skill to use (it cost a lot of mana).

Myself as a WHM I do see the effectiveness of swiftcast and obviously will eventually get it. But after grinding all the way to 50 the last thing on my mind was leveling another 26 levels. But while waiting for AK ques I level THM and slowly but surely its getting there.

As others have said, it shouldn't be mandatory, if people don't die for stupid reasons then things would be okay.

The biggest Problem at the moment are the european players, like me, we have an 1-2 sec. delay and cant really play like we want to.
i my self play an Scholar and im pretty sure that i need swiftcast more than an Healer from the US, sometimes i cast an heal at 50% of Tankhealth and the heal is done tank full but he falls down dead o_O.
The same problem is the fuck with this red Zones on the ground if you dont run out before they appear you mostly been hit.

I think swiftcast i an great spell for healer, but also for all magican DDs.

As a War, I pray for swiftcast heals on those spike damage bosses... or when I get WHM that like to run around a lot.

I'm ready to enter Castrum as my next instance and so far haven't learned it, and haven't needed it (Once or twice I've known it would have saved us, but meh). I know "endgame" is post story content, but it's a hassle to get. Our own skills should suffice but they don't which is sad. Although benediction will help too, despite its huge 5 minute CD.

If Presense of Mind didn't have such a weak effect it would be decent in replacement / worth using. (doubles spellspeed: at+90ish spellspeed on gear it drops me to 1.94 or something GCD, or about 20% faster casting, but the way it works, with no spellspeed you get a mere .1 seconds for 10 seconds in 5 fucking minutes.)

I'll be getting it eventually (THM is 10 for now) but goddamn, our skill needs fixing so it's not quite so important, not everyone demanding we have to crossclass further than anyone else is "required" to to play one class.

To the person who said, "not raise them and let the party wipe," and those that agree. Remember they died, not the healer, don't take it out on them when they are busy managing their MP and keeping a tank alive so they DON'T insta-wipe, regardless of SC. As WHM the Refresh we get has a fairly long cool down so dropping a good chunk of MP to raise someone when they are trying to keep everyone alive in the mean time goes on the back burner. It's when we're all back on track that it SHOULD happen, it shouldn't be impulsive because those few hundred MP could be the difference between the tank dieing and Shroud of Saints being up.

I am in the EU area as well and, no I don't have swiftcast, yet. I've never had a problem with raising people in battles if I keep my buffs up on the Tank I usually have 8-10 seconds to make preparations to get someone up before dropping a cure bomb, but I am not at end game, yet. My biggest problem is the terrible EU server lag, on red circles, and the people that insta-return.

I mean WTH I've done a damn good job of managing my MP, Tank doesn't get to critical on my watch, you can wait your turn. My argument isn't for or against Swiftcast, its about the attitude of people in the game, play your best, don't blame others.
If you made a mistake, own it. If the Healer blunders, they should own it too.

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Originally Posted by Noroi_Kisaragi

So your excuse for deliberately holding back your healing potential for your team is...."everyone else in my team should get better"? Stop making excuses and learn Swiftcast. It has many uses beyond just raising, and to make excuses to NOT Learn it while still hoping to participate in endgame is going to get you laughed at, nothing more.

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I cant think of a single time swiftcast is needed for raise. If you are dying that often you DO need to step up your game. Every good duty finder party I've had involves everyone avoiding the aoe's and various other avoidable attacks. I'm not saying swiftcast isn't useful, but in reality there are no deaths at endgame, either you are taking too much damage, or the whm isnt healing properly, in both cases you have a major issue that swiftcast + raise will not fix. It IS however, useful for increasing the parties margin of error. I will say it is a rare occasion I have ever HAD to use swift cast. With free company members, even in gimped gear, we are able to clear all but the hardest of endgame content. (Read: TITAN HARD MODE)

The tank is our main priority, the healers second, the support third, and the DPS last. If you are in danger of death, then it is most definitely yours or the tanks fault. not the healer. Rarely in my experiences, duty finder, or FC parties at endgame, have we won unless everyone is on their A-Game. It's an easy thing to blame a healer because your party wiped. It's a hard thing to admit you are at fault and should be trying to make things easier on the healer. You have to move around some!
Back to the point though, swiftcast as a White Mage is preferred but not required.

Main point: If you're dying from AOE's its your fault, if you're dying because you got hate then its most likely your fault (or the tanks), if you're dying and the white mage is sitting on full mp its their fault. If you don't like that maybe you shouldn't do endgame.

OP just learn to play and stop dying to avoidable damage.It's that simple, and yeah i am being blunt here.

There are no one shoot bosses out there right know, so if a DD dies its his fault, not the healers. also spending 800 mana points on a person that cant even avoid something is a waste never the less. Swiftcast is nice but not a must have.

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Originally Posted by Awake

OP just learn to play and stop dying to avoidable damage.It's that simple, and yeah i am being blunt here.

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The Mainpoint is, most of the european üplayers cannot avoid the big fat red zones fast enough trough pingspikes at 400 - 2500, thats a mere hell to play.
And i think Swiftcast is a good Spell and any Mageclass that use ist knows how good it is but it is not an must have aside you are an player from Europe, or have some in group :)

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Originally Posted by Neoiceman

The Mainpoint is, most of the european üplayers cannot avoid the big fat red zones fast enough trough pingspikes at 400 - 2500, thats a mere hell to play.
And i think Swiftcast is a good Spell and any Mageclass that use ist knows how good it is but it is not an must have aside you are an player from Europe, or have some in group :)

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Thats alos not right we have not the best ping but im still able to avoid everything, maybe not the goo from the first boss in wanderes palace but every other spell i can.

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Originally Posted by Slambo

If I'm casting raise YOU are doing it wrong. you show me a fight with a guaranteed 1 shot to someone (every time) and I'll agree with you though.

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This. Combat rez is more in case someone messed up bad. The day they implement something along the lines of hard mode Steelbreaker's Overwhelming Power => Meltdown combo (the fight is designed to push the raid's DPS by guaranteeing tank deaths, as Meltdown insta-kills the tank and is unavoidable), the OP might have a valid point.

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Originally Posted by Neoiceman

The Mainpoint is, most of the european üplayers cannot avoid the big fat red zones fast enough trough pingspikes at 400 - 2500, thats a mere hell to play.
And i think Swiftcast is a good Spell and any Mageclass that use ist knows how good it is but it is not an must have aside you are an player from Europe, or have some in group :)

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The real heavy hitting AoE attacks takes a significant time to be cast from the bosses...like 3 sec in most scenarios so even if you have a 1000ms ping you will still be able to avoid it.Problem with 90% of them DPS classes is that tehy tunnel vision on their rotation and thus fail to avoid such attacks.

swiftcast + raise is amazing tool , incombat instant rez

even the best player make mistakes , or have lag spikes u know , dying doesnt mean u are an horrible player that must not be raised.

OP's manner aside, if you're playing as WHM, SMN, or SCH, swiftcast is a must, especially when playing with DF groups, or you & your entire FC are from the 3rd world, with 1-2s delay in every AoE. In those cases your personal skill doesn't really matter, in fact, it requires even more skill to survive, and dying is normal for them...

I've been through a lot of situations where the pt wouldn't have wiped if the other healers/arcanists had swiftcast like me, it could have saved 2-3 dead people in an instant, there's just no reason for them to say not to get it cause their personal skill is good enough and it's not their fault people dies...
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Originally Posted by BrainWoodstock

Thats alos not right we have not the best ping but im still able to avoid everything, maybe not the goo from the first boss in wanderes palace but every other spell i can.

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I can dodge most AoEs, but Ifrit's Eruption (the Eruption barrage after middle plumes in 3rd phase in HM is a nightmare if the stun fails) and Titan's Landslide are still a problem. Magitek Cannon used by Reapers is also unavoidable if it's centered on me, it can't kill me from full health, though. There are quite a few more AoEs I can't dodge if I'm in the center of them, but thankfully they are not instadeaths to BLMs.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

even the best player make mistakes , or have lag spikes u know , dying doesnt mean u are an horrible player that must not be raised.

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This is true. I don't claim to be one of the best, but when things get chaotic enough, you need to start focusing on many things at once, and let's face it, no real person can truly focus on more than one thing at once.

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Originally Posted by Brises

Why shouldn't you attempt it? It's not like the world is going to end if you try and fail. It's a game after all. That's how you learn. Swiftcast is definitely good to have, but when I hit 50, no way I'm going to wait for another 26 levels before trying endgame.

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This is why they call it Derp Finder.

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Originally Posted by Slambo

If I'm casting raise YOU are doing it wrong. you show me a fight with a guaranteed 1 shot to someone (every time) and I'll agree with you though.

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Raise by its nature was designed to keep the fight going in case something goes wrong. No one is perfect and there are cases that exist where something unexpected happens in a fight. This is the last thing i would want to hear from a Healer ESPECIALLY in progression raiding.

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Originally Posted by Awake

The real heavy hitting AoE attacks takes a significant time to be cast from the bosses...like 3 sec in most scenarios so even if you have a 1000ms ping you will still be able to avoid it.Problem with 90% of them DPS classes is that tehy tunnel vision on their rotation and thus fail to avoid such attacks.

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Titan says Hi.

I have swiftcast...and I use it. That said:

Just because I have it, doesn't mean I'll use it when you think I should.

1. You're dead, the rest of the party currently isn't, I need to keep it that way. So until I can safely take focus off healing them to raise you (even swiftly) you stay dead.
2. MP. Raise is NOT cheap.
3. Swiftcast is better used on other spells in the heat of battle. Demon Wall and Medica 2 say 'hi'. This means it might be on cooldown when you take a dirt nap.
4. 99.4% of the time, I was NOT the reason you died. So, yeah, you can wait until I have the MP and until the party is safe.

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Originally Posted by Awake

The real heavy hitting AoE attacks takes a significant time to be cast from the bosses...like 3 sec in most scenarios so even if you have a 1000ms ping you will still be able to avoid it.Problem with 90% of them DPS classes is that tehy tunnel vision on their rotation and thus fail to avoid such attacks.

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No it is not.
Let us think we have an lagspike from 2000ms than you have an reaktion- and movingtime about 1 second, you know what that mean? Yeah dead from Lag.
You ran out of the Zone stand still cast an Heal, than the Boss fire the Megaspell and you die 20m away from the Zone :(

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Originally Posted by Neoiceman

No it is not.
Let us think we have an lagspike from 2000ms than you have an reaktion- and movingtime about 1 second, you know what that mean? Yeah dead from Lag.
You ran out of the Zone stand still cast an Heal, than the Boss fire the Megaspell and you die 20m away from the Zone :(

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I will turn the table around now...if you have 2000ms ping you are holding back your team at endgame.And most probably even more than a WHM not havieng Swiftcast.

I am not saying Swiftcast is not helpfull, but saying it is required in order to kill endgame content is just silly to say the least.

I am getting swift cast but not because i think not having it will make me a bad healer, but because i can see the benefits of it, but like no2 in this thread, if your needing a raise
then in most cases you have just done something wrong.

Swiftcast sure is a nice spell to have. I LOVE having it as a Summoner. As a Summoner, I actually use Swiftcast for resurrection more often than for other stuff. I also often use it to cast Shadow Flare and sometimes to instant cast Bio II or Miasma, and sometimes to resummon a pet in battle. I find myself resurrecting dead healers fairly often, and if I had to spend 10 seconds doing it everyone would die, but it has actually saved the party on numerous occasions.

So... yeah, Swiftcast is pretty great. That's all I'll say on this topic though lol

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Originally Posted by Awake

I will turn the table around now...if you have 2000ms ping you are holding back your team at endgame.And most probably even more than a WHM not havieng Swiftcast.

I am not saying Swiftcast is not helpfull, but saying it is required in order to kill endgame content is just silly to say the least.

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You're saying you should not do endgame if you have a high ping, which is something you 99% of the time have no control over? Who are you to deny a right a player paid for? A good party can adapt to lag by expecting a laggy player to get hit and prepare for that.

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Originally Posted by hours

And the party of a person with 2000ms ping also paid for the right not to have said person in their group. It's your right to attempt end-game content but you're not entitled to having the entire party compensate for your crappy latency unless it was agreed upon in the first place.

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If you are using DF, you have no say over the party members. If you make a custom party, then the leader has a say.

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Originally Posted by Awake

The real heavy hitting AoE attacks takes a significant time to be cast from the bosses...like 3 sec in most scenarios so even if you have a 1000ms ping you will still be able to avoid it.Problem with 90% of them DPS classes is that tehy tunnel vision on their rotation and thus fail to avoid such attacks.

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Have you ever tried playing the game at 600ms? Let alone 1000ms? Avoiding AoE isn't as easy as taking several steps outside of the zone, but running really far away to ensure 100% dodge, & a lot of times it's not even working. It isn't the players' fault, it's the game coding for syncing player's position on server's side, while most MMOs are client's side. So ppl have to live with it & be prepared for it, rather than letting the whole pt wipe just because no one can insta-raiseLoading...

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Originally Posted by Sove92

You're saying you should not do endgame if you have a high ping, which is something you 99% of the time have no control over? Who are you to deny a right a player paid for? A good party can adapt to lag by expecting a laggy player to get hit and prepare for that.

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And the party of a person with 2000ms ping also paid for the right not to have said person in their group. It's your right to attempt end-game content but you're not entitled to having the entire party compensate for your crappy latency unless it was agreed upon in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Sove92

If you are using DF, you have no say over the party members. If you make a custom party, then the leader has a say.

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My point is, exactly, you have no say over other party members. If others do not agree with you in any way, they can leave.

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Originally Posted by Sove92

You're saying you should not do endgame if you have a high ping, which is something you 99% of the time have no control over? Who are you to deny a right a player paid for? A good party can adapt to lag by expecting a laggy player to get hit and prepare for that.

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I tihnk you have a problem with reading.I never said you should not do endgame...

I dont even understand how can you play with ping above 300ms, i know i wouldnt no matter how much i like the game in question.

I'm going to have to at least partially agree with the OP. Swiftcast is fantastic and serves as a great boon to any WHM, SCH, or SMN. Sure, it isn't required, but it can certainly turn the tide of battle if used to get off an emergency cure or rez a DPS that made a fatal error. I'd also like to echo what some other players have brought up in this thread; the skill's utility doesn't stop at merely healing and rezzing. It can be used for a myriad of things ranging from re-summoning pets to shielding allies before an AoE. The skill itself is invaluable and I'd highly suggest that all players able to cross-class it seriously look into doing so, if not now, at least sometime in the future.