We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

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Originally Posted by LinaAkayomi

Just don't die, lmao

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I have literally witnessed a tank who killed the party intentionally with a tank buster to solo a trial. Of course, you could report that, but at the same time, this should not be possible to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Jim5K

By doing that WAR will become unviable for any content that is above Extreme, by gutting Bloodwhetting and making it no longer a mitigation by removing the damage reduction and shield will leave WAR - the job whose defensive kit already the worst of all the tanks with only 3 mitigations down to 2 completely useless. Removing Nascent Flash is also a horrible idea for it removes the only skill celling WAR has in higher contents which is covering for their co-tank or saving a party member, which every other tank has in their own variation. The idea of WAR's tank stance should be its mitigation is so outdated to the point it is funny, all of that extra health and shield would contribute nothing to save a WAR from tank busters which can deal hundreds of thousands damage in current Savages and Ultimates. A job should be viable in all forms of contents, not only viable in Dungeons.

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Ok I assume that you dont know how % Mitigation works. Popping 30% + 20% isnt 50% in this game.
Removing/Changing Bloodwhetting + giving Warrior a trait that increases his MaxHP + HP recovery from healing actions would never make Warrior unviable. If anything its the opposite looking back at Stormblood.
For Example: You are about to take a TB as Warrior. Having your 40% + 10/15% from your AST/WHM + 15% Intervension from your PLD makes it to where the trait for more MaxHP is much more effective than having 10% more from Bloodwhetting. Especially in High-End Raids.
Removing Bloodwhetting would never kill Warrior assuming the other tanks see some changes aswell.

Nascent Flash .. yes ..next lets copy PLD's entire kit and identity of being the "supportive" one and put it on all tanks.. shall we?

Forgot to add smth:
Changing all Tanks in selfsustain would also give them the possibility to give other jobs tools to help tanks tanking. Such as BLM's Apocastasis, BRD's Palisade, SMN's Eye for an Eye ect.
Needing to work as a team would increase fun aswell.

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

Ok I assume that you dont know how % Mitigation works. Popping 30% + 20% isnt 50% in this game.
Removing/Changing Bloodwhetting + giving Warrior a trait that increases his MaxHP + HP recovery from healing actions would never make Warrior unviable. If anything its the opposite looking back at Stormblood.
For Example: You are about to take a TB as Warrior. Having your 40% + 10/15% from your AST/WHM + 15% Intervension from your PLD makes it to where the trait for more MaxHP is much more effective than having 10% more from Bloodwhetting. Especially in High-End Raids.
Removing Bloodwhetting would never kill Warrior assuming the other tanks see some changes aswell.

Nascent Flash .. yes ..next lets copy PLD's entire kit and identity of being the "supportive" one and put it on all tanks.. shall we?

Forgot to add smth:
Changing all Tanks in selfsustain would also give them the possibility to give other jobs tools to help tanks tanking. Such as BLM's Apocastasis, BRD's Palisade, SMN's Eye for an Eye ect.
Needing to work as a team would increase fun aswell.

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Then I assume you havent done any EW or DT's ultimate or play a WAR before, removing the damage reduction and shield from bloodwhetting as well as nascent flash and leaving WAR with only rampart and vengeance to cycle through and with how frequently and hard hitting the tankbusters come at it is a fast express ticket to "Why we even have a WAR in this fight?" We all know 30%+ 20% isn't 50% that's why we need 10% mitigations on bloodwhetting so you don't have to pop both rampart and vengeance and waste their big cooldowns to survive a tankbuster which is what you trying to justify its removal. Also the WAR doesn't need the trait of extra health and healing because it already has all of that as Thrill of battle and yet it still need extra covers from healers and co-tank in high-end fights. And in current Ultimates, tankbusters rarely hit one tank only, you can't expect the healers and the co-tank to dump resources on a WAR alone, removing nascent flash is also not an option since WAR needs it to cover their co-tank as well for those tankbusters, why would you want to remove "the supportive" one while also say "work as a team would increase the fun as well?" that's why we even have 2 tanks in fights. Also dps have their defensive skills as well and they been using them to help not only the tanks but the party to survive in Ultimates.

How about making the tanks tank, healers heal and DPS dps? Not having 8 DPS in different colors. That would ofc require that the masterminds behind this design choice come up with some game mechanics first.

I mean, they could at least try to make FFXIV endgame content as challenging and engaging as a lvl 20 dungeon in Vanilla WoW was.

This problem you could easily solve by increasing the auto attack damage of bosses, tanks can heal for a bit in Savage but not outheal auto attacks when one hit takes 20% of your health.

Normal bosses hit like wet noodles.

I think its a issue with how much mitigation and self healing tanks have, tanks have so many mits with passive mitigation that tank sustain can just keep them alive forever without healers, if you want to change that you'd reduce self healing to a extent but also reduce some mitigation value.

But you can also increase boss damage I think they need to if they keep op tank kits.

If you were to remove mitigative power from tank you could also put in some power to skills like aquaveil on healer which in comparison aren't really strong.

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Originally Posted by yesnt

I have literally witnessed a tank who killed the party intentionally with a tank buster to solo a trial. Of course, you could report that, but at the same time, this should not be possible to begin with.

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Report system in this game is "Take 20 minutes to write out a massively detailed report of every exact thing or we won't do anything. Oh sorry we can't tell you if they were punished or not lol anyway."

it's gonna be so funny when tank sustain gets nerfed into the ground and the tanks who helped it happen with stuff like this act all surprised about it. Personally, I play WAR because I love not being dependent on anyone in casual stuff since I tend to run it with randoms. But don't be a dumbass; read the room. If you've got a first timer and you wipe early in the fight, just wall it and redo. "Muh time, muh precious time" bro you're playing an mmo, your time is effectively worthless. saying this as someone who works way too much and barely even gets time to play. when i do log in and queue shit with randoms, it's because my time's available.

I'm not sure why people's first instinct is to gut Warrior's defensive cooldowns, that doesn't really solve the problem at all and will just make Warrior border on unviable in Savage content if they have to be babied by healers the entire time. Bloodwhetting is really good in dungeons, but once you go past that into actual high end content then it's about on par with the other short CDs and kinda gets outshined by TBN. I'm not sure why Warrior is getting the hate here when literally any of the other tanks can do this, even Dark Knight is extremely capable of doing this.

Honestly if you just don't want selfish tanks wasting time by not walling when most of the party dies early on, either implement enrages or throw mechanics that a tank just simply can't survive on their own. Or you could just have the boss's auto hit hard enough that the tank needs mit and healers to live. There's only a handful of bosses normal mode content that really hit that hard, Diabolos Hollow is the one I usually think of.

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Originally Posted by Jim5K

Then I assume you havent done any EW or DT's ultimate or play a WAR before, removing the damage reduction and shield from bloodwhetting as well as nascent flash and leaving WAR with only rampart and vengeance to cycle through and with how frequently and hard hitting the tankbusters come at it is a fast express ticket to "Why we even have a WAR in this fight?" We all know 30%+ 20% isn't 50% that's why we need 10% mitigations on bloodwhetting so you don't have to pop both rampart and vengeance and waste their big cooldowns to survive a tankbuster which is what you trying to justify its removal. Also the WAR doesn't need the trait of extra health and healing because it already has all of that as Thrill of battle and yet it still need extra covers from healers and co-tank in high-end fights. And in current Ultimates, tankbusters rarely hit one tank only, you can't expect the healers and the co-tank to dump resources on a WAR alone, removing nascent flash is also not an option since WAR needs it to cover their co-tank as well for those tankbusters, why would you want to remove "the supportive" one while also say "work as a team would increase the fun as well?" that's why we even have 2 tanks in fights. Also dps have their defensive skills as well and they been using them to help not only the tanks but the party to survive in Ultimates.

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Im really not sure what tankbuster you are talking about that hits so hard it would immediately kill you the moment you dont have the 10% from Stem the Flow.
Even Wave Canon hits "only" for like 75k with 2Min, Your Jobs 90s , Physranged Mit, Tank Partymit , Succor , Expedient and Healer ST. The 10% would reduce what.. 15k at most? The old Warrior MaxHP trait would give you 27k more HP instead to a total of around 155k with your 90s, 137k without 90s.
But thats not really the point here. Taking away defensive options on any tank wouldnt fix the sustain and solo capability problem of tanks outside of savage and ultimates. The self sustain is the problem and needs to be nerfed on all tanks especially warrior.

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Originally Posted by Servebotfrank

I'm not sure why people's first instinct is to gut Warrior's defensive cooldowns, that doesn't really solve the problem at all and will just make Warrior border on unviable in Savage content if they have to be babied by healers the entire time. Bloodwhetting is really good in dungeons, but once you go past that into actual high end content then it's about on par with the other short CDs and kinda gets outshined by TBN. I'm not sure why Warrior is getting the hate here when literally any of the other tanks can do this, even Dark Knight is extremely capable of doing this.

Honestly if you just don't want selfish tanks wasting time by not walling when most of the party dies early on, either implement enrages or throw mechanics that a tank just simply can't survive on their own. Or you could just have the boss's auto hit hard enough that the tank needs mit and healers to live. There's only a handful of bosses normal mode content that really hit that hard, Diabolos Hollow is the one I usually think of.

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Bloodwhetting gets uniquely hated on because WAR’s cracked sustain in casual content is the basis of why they added so much sustain to ALL the tanks they don’t need

It’s not a matter of removing BW, it’s a matter of none of the tanks need the amount of healing their short CD’s have, nerf BW’s healing and buff its mitigation for savage tanksbusters, HS and HOC just don’t need healing. PLD’s rotational healing is anti healer bloat, equilibrium and shake are excessively strong and now even abyssal drain is basically a benediction in AOE

All tank healing needs to be severely pruned down. A tanks health shouldn’t be sustained entirely from their own healing AND have the ability to sustain others as well

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

Im really not sure what tankbuster you are talking about that hits so hard it would immediately kill you the moment you dont have the 10% from Stem the Flow.
Even Wave Canon hits "only" for like 75k with 2Min, Your Jobs 90s , Physranged Mit, Tank Partymit , Succor , Expedient and Healer ST. The 10% would reduce what.. 15k at most? The old Warrior MaxHP trait would give you 27k more HP instead to a total of around 155k with your 90s, 137k without 90s.
But thats not really the point here. Taking away defensive options on any tank wouldnt fix the sustain and solo capability problem of tanks outside of savage and ultimates. The self sustain is the problem and needs to be nerfed on all tanks especially warrior.

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Idk where you got those numbers from, but I highly suggest progging the ultimate and talk from your experience there, yes? Wave Cannon is a line stack which hits the first 2 targets in front for up to 200-250k unmitigated so 1 tank has to use invulnerability so healers can focus resources on only 1 tank and the party and here a kicker - roughly 40s before Wave Cannon 1 and 40s after Wave Cannon 2 both tanks will have to mit for Cosmo dive which is another heavy hit tankbuster. Yeah, 27k more hp from the old WAR trait would help tanking autos from the boss for they hit around 35-40k per auto but not much if any for the tankbusters. Healers and tanks resources are heavily used in P6 so idk how leaving a WAR with only rampart and vengeance as mits for they have very long cooldowns and take away its short cooldown's mitigation property and covering skill like nascent flash would ever make it viable and not a deadweight for that fight and i still haven't mentioned DSR and FRU yet. In FRU currently with all its kit WAR still needs help from co-tank and healers, now imagine with only 2 mits with long cooldowns and how that would do to WAR.

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Originally Posted by Servebotfrank

I'm not sure why people's first instinct is to gut Warrior's defensive cooldowns, that doesn't really solve the problem at all and will just make Warrior border on unviable in Savage content if they have to be babied by healers the entire time. Bloodwhetting is really good in dungeons, but once you go past that into actual high end content then it's about on par with the other short CDs and kinda gets outshined by TBN. I'm not sure why Warrior is getting the hate here when literally any of the other tanks can do this, even Dark Knight is extremely capable of doing this.

Honestly if you just don't want selfish tanks wasting time by not walling when most of the party dies early on, either implement enrages or throw mechanics that a tank just simply can't survive on their own. Or you could just have the boss's auto hit hard enough that the tank needs mit and healers to live. There's only a handful of bosses normal mode content that really hit that hard, Diabolos Hollow is the one I usually think of.

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Because I highly doubt cutting their damage reduction and replacing it with more max HP and more healing received like they used to have would drastically hurt their ability to survive attacks.


But other tanks do need their healing gutted, I just think they could let WAR still be what it's been in the past.

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Originally Posted by Servebotfrank

I'm not sure why people's first instinct is to gut Warrior's defensive cooldowns, that doesn't really solve the problem at all and will just make Warrior border on unviable in Savage content if they have to be babied by healers the entire time. Bloodwhetting is really good in dungeons, but once you go past that into actual high end content then it's about on par with the other short CDs and kinda gets outshined by TBN. I'm not sure why Warrior is getting the hate here when literally any of the other tanks can do this, even Dark Knight is extremely capable of doing this.

Honestly if you just don't want selfish tanks wasting time by not walling when most of the party dies early on, either implement enrages or throw mechanics that a tank just simply can't survive on their own. Or you could just have the boss's auto hit hard enough that the tank needs mit and healers to live. There's only a handful of bosses normal mode content that really hit that hard, Diabolos Hollow is the one I usually think of.

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Problem is skills like bloodwhetting only feels good for the warrior, It doesn't feel good for the healers. While I have no issue with some self healing, when it replaces a main function of a role even in dungeon content I do not think it's a good design

If there was a healer that could force aggro on itself and mitigate more damage then the tank, it may feel fun for that healer but it also completely invalidates tanks.

Warrior also has literally self healing tied to every single defensive cooldown, It would need to be reduced in order for healers to actually heal the warrior, other tanks are also not perfect Paladin has too much healing from magic attacks I think you need to reduce/remove that, GNB's aurora didn't need a buff and I think Dark knight is fine as it is now.

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Originally Posted by Jim5K

Idk where you got those numbers from, but I highly suggest progging the ultimate and talk from your experience there, yes? Wave Cannon is a line stack which hits the first 2 targets in front for up to 200-250k unmitigated so 1 tank has to use invulnerability so healers can focus resources on only 1 tank and the party and here a kicker - roughly 40s before Wave Cannon 1 and 40s after Wave Cannon 2 both tanks will have to mit for Cosmo dive which is another heavy hit tankbuster. Yeah, 27k more hp from the old WAR trait would help tanking autos from the boss for they hit around 35-40k per auto but not much if any for the tankbusters. Healers and tanks resources are heavily used in P6 so idk how leaving a WAR with only rampart and vengeance as mits for they have very long cooldowns and take away its short cooldown's mitigation property and covering skill like nascent flash would ever make it viable and not a deadweight for that fight and i still haven't mentioned DSR and FRU yet. In FRU currently with all its kit WAR still needs help from co-tank and healers, now imagine with only 2 mits with long cooldowns and how that would do to WAR.

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200k to 250k - your own 2min - the amount of party shields and mit = roughly 75k without Stem the Flow.
10% would reduce considering the diminishing returns 15k at most. Means the old Warrior MaxHP buff would be better there. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to see that.
You yourself took 71k there without Aquaveil 15%, Benesion ~ 10k Shield, Haima/Panhaima, Holos or Temperance. Your healers were simply not pressing buttons except E.Prognosis and Kera. Your WHM had one Aquaveil and one Benesion in the entire final phase. If you still think Warrior is the problem why you took so much damage there then sorry.. I cant help you.

I did the new trial and for the split tankbuster I popped an aquaveil on a DRK and their blackest knight shield didn't even pop. Crazy.

I wonder if a solution like this would help the situation:

Make autoattacks bypass innate defensive value but not mitigation

So instead of tanks taking about 70% less damage from autoattacks compared to casters, they'd take only 20% less damage from everyone else passively due to the tank mastery trait. So while tanks can still delay death by using mitigation, they can't do it indefinitely as they'd eventually run out and die without healer support.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

I did the new trial and for the split tankbuster I popped an aquaveil on a DRK and their blackest knight shield didn't even pop. Crazy.

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That comes up in almost every bit of content, TBN just never breaks outside of trash or specific tankbusters because nothing hits really hard. In Savage it breaks in like two autos.

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Originally Posted by Mirikh

I liked your 5 min wipe solution. Elegant and simple.

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Thanks. :D
I thought, a solution that solves the problem without taking something from tanks away will be better 'all in all'. : )

On one side people don't want homogenization. But, on the other side, making tanks weaker in 'tanking' would just be a homogenization.
It's: Make tanks more similar to everything else.
I do not want this. :c

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Originally Posted by YukioKobayashi

200k to 250k - your own 2min - the amount of party shields and mit = roughly 75k without Stem the Flow.
10% would reduce considering the diminishing returns 15k at most. Means the old Warrior MaxHP buff would be better there. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to see that.
You yourself took 71k there without Aquaveil 15%, Benesion ~ 10k Shield, Haima/Panhaima, Holos or Temperance. Your healers were simply not pressing buttons except E.Prognosis and Kera. Your WHM had one Aquaveil and one Benesion in the entire final phase. If you still think Warrior is the problem why you took so much damage there then sorry.. I cant help you.

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So you been using a party line stack mechanic to justify a tank's kit deserves to be gutted and make it even weaker than it already is for high-end contents? Wave cannon is the easiest thing to deal with in TOP tbh and it's not even a tankbuster. Also surviving a tankbuster with 50% hp compare to 70% is a world of difference in savages and ultimates where there are mit plans for them because every skill's cooldown and resources are counted by the seconds. And have you trying to ignore what i posted on purpose? The old WAR passive is still there in the form of Thrill of battle, stacking it on top of thrill would make WAR hp so bloated to the point a WAR would be more favorable than the other tanks which in turn would ruin the comp diversity, replacing it with Thrill would be no better since it would lower the skill celling and make the job boring with all that 24/7 hp buff and healing recieved. I just checked all the posts you've made in this thread and it seems like you into job identity in a very bad way to the point it would ruin the comp diversity and kill the game if implemented. I'm glad every tank has almost the same kits now to deal with mechanics, like dude, i don't want to be forced to play PLD or see every team comp has to have PLD because it's the only tank with covering abilities or tell to stay off of WAR because it had so few defensive cooldowns to cycle through and no covering ability. If all the tanks had a Passage of Arms in 8.0 to not make PLD a more favorable pick because of mechanics then so be it, job identity tied to mechanic solving skills like defensive skills, healing and shields is so bad it is borderline insanity, imagine trying to join a static or a PF party but get refused outright or locked out of your beloved job because that group needs a specific job for easier mechanics and the job you love doesn't have such thing because the game doesn't allow it to happen. Job identity on the other hand is very much welcomed in dps rotations however, make each job's rotation unique and make them fun to use.

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Originally Posted by Heavenchild

Thanks. :D
I thought, a solution that solves the problem without taking something from tanks away will be better 'all in all'. : )

On one side people don't want homogenization. But, on the other side, making tanks weaker in 'tanking' would just be a homogenization.
It's: Make tanks more similar to everything else.
I do not want this. :c

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How is making tanks weaker “homogenisation”, they are already copies of each other. “Badly implemented immortality” isn’t a design paradigm. Nerfing them all roughly equally would just be a rebalance

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Originally Posted by Heavenchild

Thanks. :D
I thought, a solution that solves the problem without taking something from tanks away will be better 'all in all'. : )

On one side people don't want homogenization. But, on the other side, making tanks weaker in 'tanking' would just be a homogenization.
It's: Make tanks more similar to everything else.
I do not want this. :c

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So tanks becoming more dependent on healers is homogenization, but the fact we can heal others just like healers isn't?

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Originally Posted by Heavenchild

Thanks. :D
I thought, a solution that solves the problem without taking something from tanks away will be better 'all in all'. : )

On one side people don't want homogenization. But, on the other side, making tanks weaker in 'tanking' would just be a homogenization.
It's: Make tanks more similar to everything else.
I do not want this. :c

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I don't really see how making Tanks more into Tanks and less into Healers would make them more or less homogenized...

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

I don't really see how making Tanks more into Tanks and less into Healers would make them more or less homogenized...

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I'd argue that tanks and healers should largely share a similar purpose of support, Tanks are already "tanks" in the fact they tank damage so well because the actual Mitigation value of tanks is absurd that plus sustain no wonder why tanks practically invalidate what little healing healers do.

Tanks aren't really "healers" but Healers aren't really "healers" both are pretty largely defined as support dps in function, as most of their role task is done with a few buttons they interact with the game in a very similar way to dps where every decision to be made should be to Solidify their damage output, as tanks have no reason to do anything other then to damage outside of clicking free defensives, Healers are in the same boat, outside of "gcd healing decision making" which practically doesn't exist if your a average or above healer.

The game is also designed in a way that's so one dimensional that you can't have Tanks that may perform a more supportive role towards the team while other tanks could have other focuses such as being a stronger main tank, good at damage (good at damage would always be hard meta in this sort of game)

I'm speaking from what I want from tanks though I personally lean to more supportive roles in general but will never really vibe with full on "mage-like" healers which is the only thing ff14 offers in terms of healers, So as a tank I actually really love the idea of using abilities that protect my team, through mitigation and healing, I don't find tanks fun if all the do is mitigate self and aggro the boss playing a largely selfish role.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Tanks aren't really "healers" but Healers aren't really "healers" both are pretty largely defined as support dps in function

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Healers aren't "healers" because there's nothing to heal, in large part because what healing there is to do is done by tanks who de facto ARE healers at this point and getting worse. I don't mind if tanks help with healing, I very much mind when tanks take over healing. You wanna pop a party shield that saves me GCD heal so I can just use an oGCD? Great, you wanna TBN that idiot with three vulns so I don't have to follow up specifically for him and can just cast an AoE heal? Happy days. Multiple benedictions every 25 seconds? Hell, HALF a benediction on a 25s cooldown? NO.

Further to this point, I don't mind tanks having lots and lots of mitigation, particularly if it's as heavily called upon in high end content as people are claiming. Tanks should be hard to kill but they never be impossible to kill, even at the peak of skill, without a healer. If this requires a rebalancing of tank HP and/or damage from enemies then so be it.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I'd argue that tanks and healers should largely share a similar purpose of support

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This argument would work if Healers could get a way to do enough enmity to steal aggro from tanks.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Snip

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Well I agree that Healers aren't healers because theirs nothing to heal, though what would be fun is actual decision making on healers the problem is both tanks and healers have overbloated kits which lead to things like GCD heals vs Damage GCDs not a choice because you can do both, I also fully agree that theirs a line with how much healing tanks can have I've said many times bloodwhetting is a awful cooldown that invalidates healers, warrior also just has a ridiculous amount of sustain beyond that, other tanks are partly guilty of this PLD/GNB but in their case we can effectively nerf mitigation value and sustain value without taking stuff from it's kit, while warrior's defensives/self healing need drastic changes. (I'd argue DRK's in a good spot for self healing).

Tanks being mitigation bots instead of more support oriented is the whole reason why you never heal tanks not because of tank sustain alone, both play a part in making tanks feel more strong I would reduce both and add for tanks to do more then just hold aggro, press your massive mitigation cooldown and healing buttons, I would honestly say current tank design is just miserable and dull for any tank player.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

This argument would work if Healers could get a way to do enough enmity to steal aggro from tanks.

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Here's the thing enmity is literally managed by one button that has no effort it's almost parallel to how healers basically don't heal but if not more so.

While I don't think tanks should replace healers tanks helping healers do their jobs effectively isn't a bad thing, that being said the way its currently handled is just horrid for both tanks and healers I think the system needs a massive overhaul rather then just removing sustain or mitigation it's really not a simple task of fixing this mess of a trinity system.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Here's the thing enmity is literally managed by one button that has no effort it's almost parallel to how healers basically don't heal but if not more so.

While I don't think tanks should replace healers tanks helping healers do their jobs effectively isn't a bad thing, that being said the way its currently handled is just horrid for both tanks and healers I think the system needs a massive overhaul rather then just removing sustain or mitigation it's really not a simple task of fixing this mess of a trinity system.

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The thing is though, that removing sustain from tanks WOULD fix the problem of tanks having too much sustain.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

The thing is though, that removing sustain from tanks WOULD fix the problem of tanks having too much sustain.

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So we shouldn't actually try to fix the core fundamental issues and just remove sustain so you still never actually heal much because the outgoing damage is still too low?

You do realise just removing sustain (other then making tanks more miserable then they already are to play) will just lead to a Band-Aid fix where healers maybe more needed for ultimate's but wouldn't entirely be anymore fun, it's a really low bar for me to just advocate for removing tank sustain and ignoring the problem.

Maybe you'd be content with healers going from never needing to heal, to placing one ogcd heal on the tank extra, personally I want better for both tanks and healers.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

So we shouldn't actually try to fix the core fundamental issues and just remove sustain so you still never actually heal much because the outgoing damage is still too low?

You do realise just removing sustain (other then making tanks more miserable then they already are to play) will just lead to a Band-Aid fix where healers maybe more needed for ultimate's but wouldn't entirely be anymore fun, it's a really low bar for me to just advocate for removing tank sustain and ignoring the problem.

Maybe you'd be content with healers going from never needing to heal, to placing one ogcd heal on the tank extra, personally I want better for both tanks and healers.

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I know it's not the only issue, but it IS an issue that should be fixed. And the fix is literally as simple as cutting down the sustain on the tanks.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

I know it's not the only issue, but it IS an issue that should be fixed. And the fix is literally as simple as cutting down the sustain on the tanks.

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No and yes.

We should cut down sustain on tanks, but theirs actually more to it then just that, I've said on the post above tanks like warrior need a overhaul in defensive/healing kit, PLD/GNB need to be tuned down, but we don't just remove sustain from tanks and call it a day "healers are fixed"

I will not be happy until both roles have a actual place and have actual decision making, Tanks and Healers both should be treated as support roles and should serve the party in ways that boost the survivability without invalidating one another.

What I don't want is them to up the tanks mitigation value more and just make them boring mitigation bots when we have ZERO enmity management. That is not why I play tank I play tank as a fantasy of "protector of the team".

Mitigation is a large reason why tanks are too strong, fight designs low output is and sustain way too strong, all three need to be tuned with healer kits in mind.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

The thing is though, that removing sustain from tanks WOULD fix the problem of tanks having too much sustain.

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So you would have the Shb Dark Knight back but for all tanks this time? Idk, but healers minus Whm used to frown and complain about Shb Dark Knight because it had zero to no sustain especially with the old Living Dead, so now you want that back so we can complain even more? This is not a fix.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

No and yes.

We should cut down sustain on tanks, but theirs actually more to it then just that, I've said on the post above tanks like warrior need a overhaul in defensive/healing kit, PLD/GNB need to be tuned down, but we don't just remove sustain from tanks and call it a day "healers are fixed"

I will not be happy until both roles have a actual place and have actual decision making, Tanks and Healers both should be treated as support roles and should serve the party in ways that boost the survivability without invalidating one another.

What I don't want is them to up the tanks mitigation value more and just make them boring mitigation bots when we have ZERO enmity management. That is not why I play tank I play tank as a fantasy of "protector of the team".

Mitigation is a large reason why tanks are too strong, fight designs low output is and sustain way too strong, all three need to be tuned with healer kits in mind.

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If you cut down the tanks ability to heal, mit becomes more important. And with less healing on the tanks, the overall damage stacks up more as you're no longer mitigating it with self-heals.

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Originally Posted by Jim5K

So you would have the Shb Dark Knight back but for all tanks this time? Idk, but healers minus Whm used to frown and complain about Shb Dark Knight because it had zero to no sustain especially with the old Living Dead, so now you want that back so we can complain even more? This is not a fix.

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I would rather have that than the current state of an unbalanced mess we have.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Well I agree that Healers aren't healers because theirs nothing to heal, though what would be fun is actual decision making on healers the problem is both tanks and healers have overbloated kits which lead to things like GCD heals vs Damage GCDs not a choice because you can do both, I also fully agree that theirs a line with how much healing tanks can have I've said many times bloodwhetting is a awful cooldown that invalidates healers, warrior also just has a ridiculous amount of sustain beyond that, other tanks are partly guilty of this PLD/GNB but in their case we can effectively nerf mitigation value and sustain value without taking stuff from it's kit, while warrior's defensives/self healing need drastic changes. (I'd argue DRK's in a good spot for self healing).

Tanks being mitigation bots instead of more support oriented is the whole reason why you never heal tanks not because of tank sustain alone, both play a part in making tanks feel more strong I would reduce both and add for tanks to do more then just hold aggro, press your massive mitigation cooldown and healing buttons, I would honestly say current tank design is just miserable and dull for any tank player.

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We've agreed previously that content needs to be adjusted but in principle, as a healer, I don't see tank mitigation as a major issue absent self-heals. you can reduce all damage by 75% if you want, if you can't heal then that damage will accumulate and you will eventually lose the battle of attrition, if tanks had mits and shields perhaps even interacting with job gauges then you would have to choose how and when to use those resources and if you should mit or do more dps. While I don't think it should always be such a trade-off but I DO think some elements should overlap so that good tank/healer coordination rewards both parties with more dps, which to be clear it is my position it should be - dps for "support" jobs a reward for good play, not their "primary" duty be the reward for someone being terrible at the game.

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Originally Posted by Jim5K

So you would have the Shb Dark Knight back but for all tanks this time? Idk, but healers minus Whm used to frown and complain about Shb Dark Knight because it had zero to no sustain especially with the old Living Dead, so now you want that back so we can complain even more? This is not a fix.

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I came to the game in EW and DRK was my favourite to heal for exactly this reason, I was disappointed when they increased DRK's self heals in DT. My pocket DRK only needs heals in DT now because they're either low ilvl and/or really doesn't want to use Living Dead, GNB, PLD, WAR are even worse. So would I advocate for an environment that requires healers to do their jobs even if it means some of them whine about their parses? You bet. Seven days a week, three hundred and sixty five days a year.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Oddly enough M6 doesn't have this issue due to the constant Party Stack - and even if you try to invuln, even WAR can't have their CD up in time for the next one on top of Raid-wides and Autos. If anything I don't knock design including more party stacks, but then it becomes a body check at that point. Generally you want to not put too many body checks in a fight otherwise we wind up with P10S problems in EW.

As someone said above:



We need this in normal raids badly. Enrage should be lenient enough to allow people to clear if they're 8-man, but no so bad as you need to push hard for damage and have a high-end rotation. They'll have to meet the average player's skill level for this. While someone can argue "but enrage causes casuals to wipe a lot and they can't do the content!", that's never been an issue when it was thrown into an Alliance Raid last expansion. Throw it into normal raids please and you'll probably manage to get some good things from even the normal crowd.

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Wait. Myths of the Realm had an enrage? lmao

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Skill issue or not, the devs also are just making content that's way too hard for the average player. I'm personally getting sick and tired of dungeons with mechanics that would feel right at home in extreme trials, with similar levels of punishment for failure. It's getting extremely annoying. And given what I've seen from both 7.1 and 7.2, the devs want to turn this game into something it just flat wasn't endwalker started this slow slide towards insanity on mechanics design.

Disregarding my opinions on difficulty and encounter design, if you say, in chat, to please wipe, and the tanks continue the fight, then report them. It's considered griefing to keep a fight running if people ask for them to wipe.

As for concerns with tank design and balance, this issue is a massive can of worms and I feel deserves an entire post detailing all the many and myriad problems plaguing encounter and class design. It's an incredibly complicated subject, but it actually owes its roots in what I also brought up -- that the encounters are getting too hard. FFXIV needs a reset and rethink on how classes should be designed, and how encounters engage with the classes. Normal raids don't need to be braindead easy, but it shouldn't feel like an extreme trial from stormblood either.

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What do you mean Endwalker started this slow slide towards insanity on mechanics design? Matoya's Relict and Pagl'than on release were harder than any MSQ dungeon Endwalker had to offer. Endwalker's dungeons were genuinely something where I had to turn my brain off to even do them. As a healer, the only time they got fun was when the tank was bad.

Zeromus and Rubicante were mildly difficult on release, the latter mostly because its telegraphs were a bit weird, the former because it was kind of a fast fight. But those are also trials, not dungeons.

I agree we need a reset and rethink on how classes should be designed. That much I do agree with because job diversity is kinda awful at the moment, but I don't think there's a genuine problem with current fight design. 7.2's fights have been awesome. Not so easy as to be a slog, but easy enough that you can intuit them after 1 wipe if you read ability names, use basic pattern recognition, and look around the arena and at what the boss is doing. The only fight I think genuinely might be too hard for casual play is M7.

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Originally Posted by Voryn

Only adding enrages won’t solve the entire issue. A normal raid dps check that’s at the level of “eight casual players can reliably win, even if there’s a few deaths across the team” will easily be beatable with dead healers if at least a couple living players know how to do their rotations, and if the tanks and dps can keep the remaining players alive. Other people would need to die too. There has to be enough damage where only healers can deal with it, either in the usual output (like in M3 Normal) or when not everyone is alive to do a mechanic (like when there’s party stacks, or P10 Normal’s towers -> harrowing hell). Then eventually only the tanks are alive and they can’t beat the enrage even if they’re good at doing damage.

I’m not sure if taking away healing from tanks is a good idea because then a duty finder party might be more likely to be trapped by bad healers, especially when this game’s normal content currently does not teach people how to play their jobs properly. And this is a playerbase where there’s white mages that get mad if you ask them to use Cure 2.

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ah yes, healers are the fail point again.

why are healers bad? couldnt be because there are no option to TEACH them how to heal. why not give tanks the best damage and able to heal since dps is the new fail point. healer s are bad because the game is not designed to teach them how to heal when things get 'exciting'. SE has taken so much "stress" off the healers that mos of them couldnt apply a bandaid let alone a healing spell. so yeah, lets keep buffing the tanks and let them keep something thats not part of their job... its worked so well thus far.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

So we shouldn't actually try to fix the core fundamental issues and just remove sustain so you still never actually heal much because the outgoing damage is still too low?

You do realise just removing sustain (other then making tanks more miserable then they already are to play) will just lead to a Band-Aid fix where healers maybe more needed for ultimate's but wouldn't entirely be anymore fun, it's a really low bar for me to just advocate for removing tank sustain and ignoring the problem.

Maybe you'd be content with healers going from never needing to heal, to placing one ogcd heal on the tank extra, personally I want better for both tanks and healers.

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Damage needs to be increased across the board but building increased damage on the jenga tower that is current tank sustain is not the right way to go about it

Tank sustain is so overpowered in casual content you basically cannot outscale it without completely overwhelming all but the best healers immediately. There is no functional middle ground where healers of most skill levels can keep up while damage is enough to challenge healers but also challenge tank sustain levels. It just doesn’t work

And I’m going to be a bit mean here but tank sustain is directly affecting the healer role I don’t care if nerfing tank sustain makes tanks feel worse. Tanks shouldn’t have it in the first place. It’s like if healers were better agro controllers than tanks and when tanks asked healers agro to be nerfed healers responded with “but controlling agro feels good don’t ruin my class” even though that feel good action is way way way outside of the classes design paradigm

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

If you cut down the tanks ability to heal, mit becomes more important. And with less healing on the tanks, the overall damage stacks up more as you're no longer mitigating it with self-heals.

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But cutting down tanks self healing doesn't make tanks more fun nor does it really improve healers, Both are so fundamentally flawed designs that we're gonna have to do a little more then just "reduce tank sustain". Though I've said in previous posts that I would reduce current tank sustain because it is too high, warrior being the biggest example but other tanks can also use some sustain adjustments.

I don't want to come across like I want tanks to be OP because I really do not think they're fun and healers are not fun either I think current tank design negatively effects healers but isn't even close to all the issues healer has, I don't really know why it has to be a "tank vs healer" argument both suffer from this current design and both need major reworks not just "reduce/remove sustain".

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

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I can tell you for sure tank mitigation, If I pop Guardian on Paladin I tank no damage from a tank buster, theirs literally just not enough damage to do anything to me, I got so many Mitigations ontop of passive Mitigation compared to other roles, Tanks do not even need that much mitigation, obviously they should be defensive and have high mitigation but we're past that point of it being too much same with self healing and target healing on tanks, though this could blame fights partly as it's a issue with how little damage goes out and like you mentioned below item level really effects healing/tanking in such a noticeable way, I really think item level hurts the game when everyone is over geared because tanks being op along that makes everything scale and stand out even more. Though of course it's many issues.

I do agree with a lot of what you say though I like the idea that extra DPS is good for actual good teamplay, I think we're on similar pages at least as a Tank main I really want to work with my healer instead of pretty much doing everything by pressing a few cooldowns or just my rotation healing me for absurd amounts on PLD, I really dislike magic healing on PLD cuz it's passive and doesn't interact with your kit and theirs just so much of it, hence why PLD's got absurd amount of self healing when you look at the data cuz like 3k of it per minute is just tied to your rotation.

I want to feel like my cooldowns have actual impact because even if I don't press them I know healer kits are just also bloated with 1 million ogcd heals that never get used because tank mitigations/heals are just so strong.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

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I know you don't really care about if it effects tanks or not, that's fine your a healer main I don't expect you to really care about stuff that doesn't effect you, but they have to design a game that's fun for everyone, I also don't really care if tanks are upset if cooldowns like bloodwhetting is reworked or nerfed, it shouldn't exist I will always defend a level amount of self healing but we are way past normal levels of self healing when it comes to warrior, PLD/GNB are also overtuned.

I personally feel theirs no real gain to only go after sustain I've made this clear it's the entire tanks kit that needs to be scaled down, apart from warrior which needs a overhaul in it's defensive/healing kit design, but in reality we need to overhaul tanks and healers from the ground up, if we're ever ideally going to get fun gameplay from both.