After 1 (arguably 2) expansions what is square trying to achieve with WAR (and PLD)?

To tackle the problem, one must first correctly define it. It does not seem to me that the problem is tank self-sustain. Considering that the game is balanced for Savage, and that these abilities are mostly fine in Savage, I don't think the issue can solely be attributed to tank design. Rather I think this a compound issue of tank design, healer design, and fight design. So basically everything except DPS design.

Healers need a total redesign. Their design is completely backwards of what a new player would expect. Healing has other major issues, such as not having any healthy options for future ability additions. However the fact that it is so completely backwards of what you would expect is honestly enough to rework the entire role.

Fight design's problems stem from being too focused on large hits every minute or so, auto-centering, not enough damage to warrant healing outside of savage, etc. I think the biggest issue here actually is the gap between an expert dungeon and Savage in terms of difficulty. Obviously an expert shouldn't be as hard as Savage, but the gap shouldn't be so vast that abilities are massively over tuned for normal content either.

Tank design... Look, tank self-sustain is the least of the issues with tanks in my opinion. Ever since the removal of TP and Enmity, tanks have just been boring. Mitigation isn't fun, and rotations aren't fun. That didn't used to be an issue because you also had to watch enmity and TP, which was just enough to make it fun(especially in casual content where DPS never used enmity dumps). If your goal is to actually fix tank design, then you have to address the whole issue. Which probably means redesigning tanks so that their mitigation and rotation interact with each other.

If your whole goal is just to stop one or no healer runs in trials and raids, then the quick solution is to either increase the MP cost of Paladin's magic burst or put clemency on a CD. If you want to make WARs mortal in dungeons, then put a 5 target cap on BW/NF. Though those would just be band-aids on top of a stack of band-aids on top of an amputation at this point.

Looking at all of this, I can't honestly tell you what the heck SE is trying to do with this game. It looks to me that they have no idea what they are doing.

5 Target cap would still make WAR immortal. It could honestly just heal once per gcd rather than per target and it still be fairly strong. Right now the per target healing is so overtuned that it honestly is mostly wasted, a single GCD takes you from 0 to max, even worse if you crit boost it.

Just making it heal once per GCD would make it a lot more manageable and not even impact its use in Raiding.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

5 Target cap would still make WAR immortal. It could honestly just heal once per gcd rather than per target and it still be fairly strong. Right now the per target healing is so overtuned that it honestly is mostly wasted, a single GCD takes you from 0 to max, even worse if you crit boost it.

Just making it heal once per GCD would make it a lot more manageable and not even impact its use in Raiding.

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Once per GCD is a target cap of 1, and would make the healing basically useless when pulling wall to wall.

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Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

Once per GCD is a target cap of 1, and would make the healing basically useless when pulling wall to wall.

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Would it? I mean, you still get 20% mit, you still get a shield half as big as TBN and 1200-1600 potency worth of healing.

This thread: 'The community is not part of the problem.'

WAR mains: 'Tank self-sustain is not part of the problem.'

Players aren't interested in balance. They're interested in maximizing their advantages over others. Balance is just a developer compromise on those demands. Sometimes that means ignoring the loudest voices and issuing nerfs.

Man WAR discussion reminds me so much of ADCs on League where they either be the strongest role in the game or deep bottom of it

In both cases people won't stop crying about it until the first happens, then when doesn't returns to square 0

The cycle

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Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

Once per GCD is a target cap of 1, and would make the healing basically useless when pulling wall to wall.

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Why would that be a problem? You're literally still packing with 1,600p heal + 400p shield + 10% mit on that one single button assuming they nerf it down proccing once per GCD. That is still stronger than Equilibrium in potency per minute. Why do you need more? That's totally not a 'useless healing'. All that does is they would bring WAR's sustenance down close to PLD's degree, which if anybody knows anything at all, is still arguably excess on the hands of capable PLDs.

Today's BW is 4 Benedictions with 17s downtime. You don't need ANY other cooldowns to be used in that 8s uptime unlike PLD's Holy Shelltron within the same situation.

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Originally Posted by Asako

Warrior has always been about Damage to HP so as it is now I think it's in a great shape.

Personally I thought PLD was good until the recent change. I actually hate new PLD. You still need to drop Atonements so the rotation makes even less sense than it used to. Boring Blade is terrible, and we know its just going to get an aoe version in DT. Req Cast being a melee move still baffles me to this day. Cover is shocking. Clemency shouldn't exist or at least change it to an OGCD with a non spammable or lower potency.

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The bolded part first - you do NOT drop Atonements in current PLD design, at all. When you complete a Royal Authority combo and are not inside your Fight or Flight window, you actually pre-load the next combo with Fast Blade -> Riot Blade, then spend all stacks of Sword Oath: Atonement and use your Divine Might: Holy Spirit. That way all your filler aside Goring Blade, Confiteor and Blade of Valor combo is still Holy Spirit, Atonement or Royal Authority.

Arguably this is one of the better versions of Paladin. The kicker here is that Holy Spirit and Holy Circle aren't purely relegated to Requiescat windows as before and are much more adjustable when to use them. I started playing slow PLD (~2.50s GCD) in 6.25, which played similarly and pretty much kept Goring Blade usage to about 1 per minute and I enjoyed that more.

As for things being a bit bland or having issues - I really hope they DON'T repeat the "this button but now AOE" or "this button but now Single Target and more potency". Goring Blade could simply be repurposed to a frontal cleave with say -60% falloff after the first target. Saves a button, makes Goring Blade not a lost button during AOE pulls. Requiescat could definitely be ranged, but honestly I'm not gonna lose sleep over it being melee since its' inception in Stormblood.

Cover has been nerfed into a borderline useless state by adding that gauge cost on top of dropping the mitigation back in Stormblood. It has been four years. Remove either the gauge cost OR return the Lv66 Cover Trait and keep the gauge cost. Recent buster designs also generally now favour Holy Sheltron + Intervention combos anyhow and even if there was a niche for Cover, we are unlikely to experiment with it because 50 Oath cost is simply too much for providing zero mitigation vs virtually having a Sentinel on a short cooldown.

Clemency is fine. What they could potentially do is give using Clemency an effect that benefits a cast of Holy Spirit / Holy Circle, like "next Holy Spirit/Circle gains +X potency" to mildly alleviate the public perception of this button (which likely would come at a greater MP cost - not like its an issue given how much MP we generate).

Attaching a partial refund to clemency would just create tank freecure

Tanks who think they should be pressing it at 40% HP or so with the excuse “yeah but I get a partial refund for it”

Honestly with how much healing PLD now has on the oGCD clemency should just be deleted

A good compromise that I can see is that aside from limiting BW to 1 pulse of heal per GCD, make so that using an AoE GCD does more healing than using a single-target GCD.

Compromise my dear spoiled children of Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Honestly with how much healing PLD now has on the oGCD clemency should just be deleted

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Oh no. please don't delete Clemency. Just nerf PLD self-healing by a bit. Clemency, as niche as it is, has its uses.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Attaching a partial refund to clemency would just create tank freecure

Tanks who think they should be pressing it at 40% HP or so with the excuse “yeah but I get a partial refund for it”

Honestly with how much healing PLD now has on the oGCD clemency should just be deleted

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Don't see why we need to delete a button if for the niche it is for it's good and actually usable. Even if we don't give any refund effects, there is minimal reason to delete it when most of PLD's healing is only available at Lv84+.

If the argument is button bloat, we got other memes to look at like current iteration of Cover and Shield Bash. The latter is so utterly bad right now that various Paladin players just don't even put it on the hotbar outside of niche Deep Dungeon situations.

So yeah - Clemency can and should stay. I'd hate to make PLD any more same like the other tanks.

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Originally Posted by rawker

A good compromise that I can see is that aside from limiting BW to 1 pulse of heal per GCD, make so that using an AoE GCD does more healing than using a single-target GCD.

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How about changing the heal potency based on amount of targets hit? 1st target is 400p heal, every subsequent is 100? Would keep single target heals strong, keep AOE heals relevant and avoid the ambiguity with Primal Rend.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Don't see why we need to delete a button if for the niche it is for it's good and actually usable. Even if we don't give any refund effects, there is minimal reason to delete it when most of PLD's healing is only available at Lv84+.

If the argument is button bloat, we got other memes to look at like current iteration of Cover and Shield Bash. The latter is so utterly bad right now that various Paladin players just don't even put it on the hotbar outside of niche Deep Dungeon situations.

So yeah - Clemency can and should stay. I'd hate to make PLD any more same like the other tanks.

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Shield Bash and Cover are still redeemable via Traits. I made a quick list of what I would like to see changed on PLD and have included those 2 you have mentioned.

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Originally Posted by rawker

- Fight or Flight is upgraded to Spirit's Within then is upgraded to Expiacion.
- Revert Goring Blade to be a DoT applying combo action from Riot Blade. Combo'ed Goring Blade also gives Divine Might and Sword Oath.
- Rework Circle of Scorn to be a combo action from Total Eclipse that does damage and applies a DoT. Combo'ed Circle of Scorn also gives Divine Might.
- bring back Shield Swipe as magic attacks are now blockable. Allow it to hold up to 3 charges via trait. Blocking an attack lowers the cooldown of Shield Swipe.
- Cover to get a trait where if the PLD receives a total of 50% of its max HP from redirected damage, the PLD gets healed for 1000 potency. Will only proc once per usage of Cover. Cover can also block redirected damage.
- remove damage from Intervene and add 25 oath gauge cost. Lower its cooldown to 5 seconds
- add a trait to Shield Bash where it will get its potency increased after using Intervene and removes the stun effect. Can combo into Riot Blade. Combo'ed Riot Blade from Shield Bash will also give 15 Oath Gauge, in addition to 1000MP.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

How about changing the heal potency based on amount of targets hit? 1st target is 400p heal, every subsequent is 100? Would keep single target heals strong, keep AOE heals relevant and avoid the ambiguity with Primal Rend.

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This is also good.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

How about changing the heal potency based on amount of targets hit? 1st target is 400p heal, every subsequent is 100? Would keep single target heals strong, keep AOE heals relevant and avoid the ambiguity with Primal Rend.

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Bloodwhetting should be nerfed to a point that single target or AOE you do not get a full heal out of its duration, that should be the bare minimum of its nerfs

I don't really understand why WAR absolutely has to keep the healing on every enemy hit when PLD gets only 1 heal per cast and they function in big pulls perfectly fine. The only other tank that has a heal on every enemy hit is DRK, but theirs is a single hit every 60s.

I am fine with the increased healing in AoE situations but what I am not fine with is Nascent Flash

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Originally Posted by rawker

Shield Bash and Cover are still redeemable via Traits. I made a quick list of what I would like to see changed on PLD and have included those 2 you have mentioned.

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Oh yeah, I know and I'd prefer if they actually were useful. Personally "anything" that gives Cover defensive parity to Holy Sheltron in cost:effect ratio would be fine. I'd argue 1000 heal potency is a bit "meh". Unless you meant with "Cover can also block redirected damage" like how Bulwark has +100% block rate, because that would absolutely work.

As for Shield Bash/Intervene - I personally am not the biggest fan of taking damage off Intervene, but I like the interaction with Shield Bash and it would expand the Oath gauge usage. Making it an alternative combo starter to Fast Blade (analog to DRG's Raiden Thrust) definitely sounds like a cool interaction to make Intervene not be a needed part of your FoF window yet give it offensive effects with the enhanced Shield Bash. Definitely got me interested on that one.

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Originally Posted by rawker

I am fine with the increased healing in AoE situations but what I am not fine with is Nascent Flash

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Lowkey should just halve the healing (or reduce it by 40%, so 400 -> 240) so there is still a benefit to use it over BW, but it isn't so grossly strong in value. Unless you have fights where the mitigation of BW is necessary to live, Nascent is just better.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Oh yeah, I know and I'd prefer if they actually were useful. Personally "anything" that gives Cover defensive parity to Holy Sheltron in cost:effect ratio would be fine. I'd argue 1000 heal potency is a bit "meh". Unless you meant with "Cover can also block redirected damage" like how Bulwark has +100% block rate, because that would absolutely work.

As for Shield Bash/Intervene - I personally am not the biggest fan of taking damage off Intervene, but I like the interaction with Shield Bash and it would expand the Oath gauge usage. Making it an alternative combo starter to Fast Blade (analog to DRG's Raiden Thrust) definitely sounds like a cool interaction to make Intervene not be a needed part of your FoF window yet give it offensive effects with the enhanced Shield Bash. Definitely got me interested on that one.

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Precisely. Having recently leveled my BLM to 90, I can't help but marvel at how delicately designed BLM is. How traits upgrade an ability like removing the cast time from Foul to Paradox temporarily replacing Blizzard and Fire if you did your rotations, correctly. It's as if someone from the higher ups like the job and made it a point to designers to give ample attention in designing the job... jk

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Which is an inherently flawed idea, making a role something it's not in an attempt to attract people that don't want to actually play it.
Sure, it will get player numbers up in the short term because now all the DPS players will at least try it out, but they're DPS players for a reason and will eventually just return to their chosen role.

And now you're stuck with jobs that appeal to neither the DPS players you tried to cater to, nor the original players of said jobs.

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This here is genuinely my biggest worry when something becomes changed, or simplified to be more accessible to others. The chosen path doesn't always feel like it's building on what exists to improve it and retain the same feeling or job identity.
For example, Paladin gaining Holy Might is a positive improvement that retains the core job identity and adds flexibility, Paladin having Goring Blade turned into a 700potency Boring Blade nuke is a negative change as made the ability feel worse and just feels slapped into the rotation.

These types of changes can be attributed not just to tank roles, but Samurai's Kaiten removal, Summoner's lobotimisation, Healer 1-button gameplay, etc.

I understand that the game needs to change to be fresh and exciting or else we might feel the gameplay stagnates, but if the changes upset the core or developed audience of a job, then it runs the risk of not being played anymore - especially if the new audience doesn't latch on.
That being said, Summoner has had their new audience definitely latch on as its one of the most played classes (likely because it's incredibly easy to play, and maybe it sadly fell on the chopping block because they needed an easier class?)

Healers have been lobotimised for a long while into 1 button gameplay and it prevents my desire to try any them out as well. I picked up Astro a long while back because I thought the random card effects sounded cool, but that's been stripped, and as such I have very little desire to play it. It's been made more accessible, but at the cost of interest from players. Scholar gameplay used to have DoT/Poison gameplay, but it no longer exists, so I don't think I will ever bother trying it as the core gameplay is fundamentally a clone of the other 3 healers and there's nothing to uniquely appeal to me.

As a Microsoft Producer speaking about AoE Online, Kevin Perry, once said, "You do, I think in general, annoy your core at your own peril."

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't really understand why WAR absolutely has to keep the healing on every enemy hit when PLD gets only 1 heal per cast and they function in big pulls perfectly fine. The only other tank that has a heal on every enemy hit is DRK, but theirs is a single hit every 60s.

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Folks tasted the forbidden fruit now, and refuses to part ways from that.

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Originally Posted by rawker

I am fine with the increased healing in AoE situations but what I am not fine with is Nascent Flash

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Honestly at this point, I'd very much prefer them to revert back to ShB Nascent Flash: HP recovery based on damage dealt. Yes, Chaotic Cyclone and maybe Primal Rend will still be a Benediction on moderate sized pulls. Yes, Orogeny & Onslaught (lol) will heal you. But regular Overpower+Mythril Tempest heals would be a trickle compared to today's iteration. CDH Decimate would probably still heal decently but not exactly an absurd amount, and you probably will have to pair BW with other cooldowns too. As of today, BW can be used on its own in a w2w pull without caring what GCD you're pressing. Adding anything on top of that while its still active would just be a waste.

Just bring back tank stances and make it possible for WAR to only heal off of bloodwhetting in tank stance, Maybe in DPS stance, it can be a buff or something.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Oh yeah, I know and I'd prefer if they actually were useful. Personally "anything" that gives Cover defensive parity to Holy Sheltron in cost:effect ratio would be fine. I'd argue 1000 heal potency is a bit "meh". Unless you meant with "Cover can also block redirected damage" like how Bulwark has +100% block rate, because that would absolutely work.

As for Shield Bash/Intervene - I personally am not the biggest fan of taking damage off Intervene, but I like the interaction with Shield Bash and it would expand the Oath gauge usage. Making it an alternative combo starter to Fast Blade (analog to DRG's Raiden Thrust) definitely sounds like a cool interaction to make Intervene not be a needed part of your FoF window yet give it offensive effects with the enhanced Shield Bash. Definitely got me interested on that one.

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What I had in mind when I thought of giving a 1000p heal from Cover is that it is designed to soften a tank buster you cover if you OT. If you are covering let's say a WHM in trash pulls so they can Holy peacefully, the 1000p heal not be as effective, that's when, as you have mentioned, pair it with Bulwark.

As for Intervene losing its damage component... let's just say the temptation to maximize damage output sometimes irks me to the point that how I wish I can freely use this ability for its utility more than using it to pad my personal dps. The interaction with Shield Bash is to open for more opportunities to open up any encounter.

Here's a radical idea. I think they should bring back the Physical and Magic split for tanks.

Make PLD and WAR the Physical damage tanks, GNB and DRK the Magic damage tanks.
PLD and GNB can be the mitigation based tanks, WAR and DRK can be self heal based tanks.

This would also help give all 4 of the tanks a little bit of their own identity.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Here's a radical idea. I think they should bring back the Physical and Magic split for tanks.

Make PLD and WAR the Physical damage tanks, GNB and DRK the Magic damage tanks.
PLD and GNB can be the mitigation based tanks, WAR and DRK can be self heal based tanks.

This would also help give all 4 of the tanks a little bit of their own identity.

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Ok so GNB in current game design would be full-time meta though. Mitigation is king unless the sustain is beyond ridiculous and most relevant damage is magical most of the time so at least 70% of the time you will run GNB-DRK.

There is a reason why we don't go heavy on those splits, as was perfectly evident on PLD vs DRK in Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by rawker

What I had in mind when I thought of giving a 1000p heal from Cover is that it is designed to soften a tank buster you cover if you OT. If you are covering let's say a WHM in trash pulls so they can Holy peacefully, the 1000p heal not be as effective, that's when, as you have mentioned, pair it with Bulwark.

As for Intervene losing its damage component... let's just say the temptation to maximize damage output sometimes irks me to the point that how I wish I can freely use this ability for its utility more than using it to pad my personal dps. The interaction with Shield Bash is to open for more opportunities to open up any encounter.

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On the matter of Cover - as long as the gauge cost persists, it needs healing and/or mitigation equivalent to Holy Sheltron at minimum, because otherwise you are better off just using Intervention or Provoke + Holy Sheltron. As long as it is linked to Oath gauge it will be fighting in usage against Holy Sheltron and Intervention. As those cooldowns are potent, either parity needs to be made or the gauge cost needs to be removed.

Option 1: 120s CD + 50 gauge cost, an excogitation like heal as you suggest and at least 20% damage reduction OR alternatively +100% Block Rate on redirected damage only (Bulwark effect).
Option 2: 120s CD, gauge cost removed, heal as you suggested, no further damage reduction.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't really understand why WAR absolutely has to keep the healing on every enemy hit when PLD gets only 1 heal per cast and they function in big pulls perfectly fine. The only other tank that has a heal on every enemy hit is DRK, but theirs is a single hit every 60s.

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My thoughts, exactly.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Folks tasted the forbidden fruit now, and refuses to part ways from that.

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My thoughts, exactly.

Seeing how this discussion continues to lean towards allowing tanks to have the healing it does, just adjusted is only rearranging chairs and tables on the Titanic. Tell me, why TF does WAR have Nascent Flash? Give me a valid reason why they need it, and why this isn't a healer role skill. Is it more viable in savage/ultimate? Are healers incompetent in this content? I see suggestions for tanks being able to heal once per GCD, like having some kind of passive bloodbath active full time. Why TF do they need this?

DRK is really the only tank that doesn't have the kind of sustain that encroaches on healers. Earlier I stated that Xeno's only suggestion to address this issue is to give healers more to do. I actually I agree with that. They should have more to heal, and this doesn't apply to only the game's more difficult content. Let healers heal FFS. Is that really such a huge thing to ask for? I don't think any healer signs up for the kind of gameplay and treatment they get. Push them. Challenge them. Allow them to play the effin game.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Tell me, why TF does WAR have Nascent Flash? Give me a valid reason why they need it, and why this isn't a healer role skill. Is it more viable in savage/ultimate? Are healers incompetent in this content? I see suggestions for tanks being able to heal once per GCD, like having some kind of passive bloodbath active full time. Why TF do they need this?

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Nascent Flash existing as a cooldown with moderate healing or at least healing scaling with damage dealt and simply acting as a targetted mitigation tool in a similar vein to Intervention. That's the purpose.

The healing amount should not be a ridiculous amount like up to 2x 1600 heal potency (self + target) tho. But Nascent Flash should 100% exist, just not with the amount it heals.

Remove it entirely and you remove WAR's relevance of ever being an offtank and you just shoehorn them harder into MT only. Terrible idea if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Nascent Flash existing as a cooldown with moderate healing or at least healing scaling with damage dealt and simply acting as a targetted mitigation tool in a similar vein to Intervention. That's the purpose.

The healing amount should not be a ridiculous amount like up to 2x 1600 heal potency (self + target) tho. But Nascent Flash should 100% exist, just not with the amount it heals.

Remove it entirely and you remove WAR's relevance of ever being an offtank and you just shoehorn them harder into MT only. Terrible idea if you ask me.

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So shoehorn them onto the OT role, then? There aren't other innovative ways to validate the OT role without encroaching on healers? I sense a lack of vision and creativity if I'm to be frank. Nascent Flash would have been a phenomenal ability to give healers. Particularly the barrier healers.

Again, I don't play tanks extensively. I can understand why giving them mitigation to help out can be and is useful. To give them healing on top of it is where I take issue. How this dev team can't see that giving healing to tanks, particularly passive healing that does not sacrifice their damage output is a problem.TOP being able to be cleared without healers is inexcusable.

If there will be consistent add phases or more mechanics that the OT will have to take care off because the boss cleaves a lot, then the OT will have something more to do than just being a blue DPS for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

So shoehorn them onto the OT role, then? There aren't other innovative ways to validate the OT role without encroaching on healers? I sense a lack of vision and creativity if I'm to be frank. Nascent Flash would have been a phenomenal ability to give healers. Particularly the barrier healers.

Again, I don't play tanks extensively. I can understand why giving them mitigation to help out can be and is useful. To give them healing on top of it is where I take issue. How this dev team can't see that giving healing to tanks, particularly passive healing that does not sacrifice their damage output is a problem.TOP being able to be cleared without healers is inexcusable.

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What are you talking about? Warrior is perceived as the de facto main tank for most players and without Nascent Flash as a mitigation tool all you'd create is a situation where WAR ever not being enmity #1 or regularly taking damage as enmity #2 is just utterly useless.

We changed PLDs mitigation, removed enmity combos and how stances work in general so PLD can be equally effective as MT. We had DRK's TBN replacing the parry engine and the shield go from 10% to 25% on target so they can be a useful OT. But when WAR gets to have Nascent Flash so they don't have to perma MT to be valuable that is a problem?

It's not an issue that it exists, it's only an issue how much healing it provides. It should heal decently, but not this much. All it needs is tweaking, not removal because it is still a very well fitting mitigation tool.

And giving tanks healing potencies is not a problem in a vacuum. Holy Sheltron, Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash and Heart of Corundum providing healing as they do should have met in the middle with encounter design amping the tank damage taken and frequency to warrant all these buffs, but they failed to do so. Making the healing a dps loss only leads to more clemency and StB inner beast being created.

As for The Omega Protocol being done without healers, this one is minimally an issue with Nascent Flash and more the abundance of AOE healing and regen option their comp provided. Divine Veil x 2 for heals and shield, Shake it Off for heal, shield and regen (both 90s), Phoenix every odd minute with a Medica II worth of regen, Curing Waltz every minute, Arcane Crest aoe regen every 30s. And cover blocking magic number debuff from applying. Of course people can clear with that if you make raid wide damage so predictable and little despite Healers virtually having healing kits they could use to heal raid fights two expansions ahead of themselves with no further additions.

Healers being replacable is a raidwide damage design issue. Healers being boring on top of that is an issue of neglecting the damage kits entirely. Nascent Flash isn't at fault here, it's Shake it Off.

bloodwheting is only obnoxious in dungeons, in raid fights its likne, nothing really that special

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Would it? I mean, you still get 20% mit, you still get a shield half as big as TBN and 1200-1600 potency worth of healing.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Why would that be a problem? You're literally still packing with 1,600p heal + 400p shield + 10% mit on that one single button assuming they nerf it down proccing once per GCD. That is still stronger than Equilibrium in potency per minute. Why do you need more? That's totally not a 'useless healing'. All that does is they would bring WAR's sustenance down close to PLD's degree, which if anybody knows anything at all, is still arguably excess on the hands of capable PLDs.

Today's BW is 4 Benedictions with 17s downtime. You don't need ANY other cooldowns to be used in that 8s uptime unlike PLD's Holy Shelltron within the same situation.

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Firstly, you don't get 20% mit, you get 19% mit for four seconds and then 10% mit for the remaining four. The shield is not half of TBN, TBN is 25% of the target's HP. BW shield is 400 potency. 400 healing potency is about 8k on my WAR, at just over 100k HP TBN is over 25k in shielding. Note that TBN will continue to out scale BW shield as HP values soar.

1200-1600 potency worth of healing is ~24k-32k; currently. This sounds like a lot until you look at incoming damage in dungeons, and consider that is spread out over three to four GCDs. Equilibrium heals 24k instantly, and mobs chew through that in seconds. Wall to walls are currently putting out 7.5k-8k DTPS before mobs start to die. That’s a lot, if you had to sustain that level of damage for an entire encounter; it would be one of the hardest Savage fights ever made (if even possible).

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Originally Posted by Lyth

This thread: 'The community is not part of the problem.'

WAR mains: 'Tank self-sustain is not part of the problem.'

Players aren't interested in balance. They're interested in maximizing their advantages over others. Balance is just a developer compromise on those demands. Sometimes that means ignoring the loudest voices and issuing nerfs.

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Please do strawman harder.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Bloodwhetting should be nerfed to a point that single target or AOE you do not get a full heal out of its duration, that should be the bare minimum of its nerfs

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You already don't get a full heal out of it in single target. Four hits of BW are ~32k healing on my WAR, which has just over 100k HP. If you're full healing off of BW in single target, it's because you didn't get hit hard enough. Which is one of the reasons I'm saying that the content is part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I don't really understand why WAR absolutely has to keep the healing on every enemy hit when PLD gets only 1 heal per cast and they function in big pulls perfectly fine. The only other tank that has a heal on every enemy hit is DRK, but theirs is a single hit every 60s.

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You don't understand why WAR absolutely has to keep something we've had since 2.0 with Bloodbath? How about because we don't want to lose any more tank identity?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

…Tell me, why TF does WAR have Nascent Flash? Give me a valid reason why they need it, and why this isn't a healer role skill. Is it more viable in savage/ultimate? Are healers incompetent in this content? I see suggestions for tanks being able to heal once per GCD, like having some kind of passive bloodbath active full time. Why TF do they need this?

DRK is really the only tank that doesn't have the kind of sustain that encroaches on healers. Earlier I stated that Xeno's only suggestion to address this issue is to give healers more to do. I actually I agree with that. They should have more to heal, and this doesn't apply to only the game's more difficult content. Let healers heal FFS. Is that really such a huge thing to ask for? I don't think any healer signs up for the kind of gameplay and treatment they get. Push them. Challenge them. Allow them to play the effin game.

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WAR has Nascent Flash, because ShB decided that every tank needed a way to contribute to the main tank's mitigation. It's definitely more useful in Savage where busters can actually kill you. Healers are quite often incompetent in normal content, that's why I don't play DRK. I haven’t really touched Savage this expansion with how bad the job design has been, so I can’t comment on healers there currently. Past experience leads me to desire as much self-healing as possible in all content though. And I've seen absolutely no one suggest giving tanks 100% uptime healing on every GCD, that's you misreading. And they absolutely wouldn't need that.
6.2 tried giving healers more to heal and you know what happened? They all quit. PF had a healer drought for the entire tier.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

So shoehorn them onto the OT role, then? There aren't other innovative ways to validate the OT role without encroaching on healers? I sense a lack of vision and creativity if I'm to be frank. Nascent Flash would have been a phenomenal ability to give healers. Particularly the barrier healers.

Again, I don't play tanks extensively. I can understand why giving them mitigation to help out can be and is useful. To give them healing on top of it is where I take issue. How this dev team can't see that giving healing to tanks, particularly passive healing that does not sacrifice their damage output is a problem.TOP being able to be cleared without healers is inexcusable.

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A more innovative way of giving the self-healing, high HP tank a way to contribute as an OT? I can’t think of another solution that would be in line with WAR’s thematic design and job identity.
It really shows that you don’t play tanks extensively, here or elsewhere. One of the best tank designs of all time is Blood DK in WoW. Its entire design is healing through the damage that it takes. 2.0 WAR was basically Blood DK at home. So much so that IB was nearly a carbon copy of Death Strike; Blood DK’s self-healing ability. Point being that a tank that heals them self is an idea that has been around for a while and has been done very well elsewhere.

TOP being cleared without healers has almost nothing to do with the WAR. That was heavy usage of Clemency, with a comp that had a ton of self-heal, combined with entirely too little damage output from the fight. TOP is the epitome of what I was saying when I said it’s not just tank design.

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Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

Once per GCD is a target cap of 1, and would make the healing basically useless when pulling wall to wall.

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It would be the exact same as on single target, you just want to be immortal.
If drk can do wall to walls with much worse healing, war will be fine without the TGM console command.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

It would be the exact same as on single target, you just want to be immortal.
If drk can do wall to walls with much worse healing, war will be fine without the TGM console command.

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You take significantly less damage in single target. DRK can do wall to walls, that does not mean it does them comfortably. DRK has the worst time with dungeons for obvious reasons, and I wouldn't want any of the tanks to be more like DRK. Please take your false equivalencies and shove them.

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Originally Posted by TheOperator3712

[...]1200-1600 potency worth of healing is ~24k-32k; currently. This sounds like a lot until you look at incoming damage in dungeons, and consider that is spread out over three to four GCDs. Equilibrium heals 24k instantly, and mobs chew through that in seconds. Wall to walls are currently putting out 7.5k-8k DTPS before mobs start to die. That’s a lot, if you had to sustain that level of damage for an entire encounter; it would be one of the hardest Savage fights ever made (if even possible).

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My earlier post has never implied that I wanted to change WAR any ways in raid environment. I don't know why you mentioned Savage Fight in your reply. I was solely speaking of dungeons---W2W specifically. That being said, my point still stands: WARs (or any non healers, really) don't need 8s Benediction with 17s downtime.

A WAR can cycle through their cooldowns long enough to use 5 (4 if it's Dead Ends) BWs in those W2W pulls before actually dying without healer's help. This SHOULD NOT be possible. If WARs insists to keep this much of a HPS, what else can be concluded other than "I want to be immortal!!" which ultimately makes you ask: why do you bring a healer? To make sure DF queue pops?

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

My earlier post has never implied that I wanted to change WAR any ways in raid environment. I don't know why you mentioned Savage Fight in your reply. I was solely speaking of dungeons---W2W specifically. That being said, my point still stands: WARs (or any non healers, really) don't need 8s Benediction with 17s downtime.

A WAR can cycle through their cooldowns long enough to use 5 (4 if it's Dead Ends) BWs in those W2W pulls before actually dying without healer's help. This SHOULD NOT be possible. If WARs insists to keep this much of a HPS, what else can be concluded other than "I want to be immortal!!" which ultimately makes you ask: why do you bring a healer? To make sure DF queue pops?

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I mentioned Savage as a point of comparison. The amount of damage you take in wall to walls is some of the highest damage in the game. I didn't say that BW needs to be where it is now. I said that capping it to a single proc per GCD would absolutely gut WAR's ability to self-heal in dungeons. I also said that the entire tank and healer roles were in need of a complete redesign.

If you will use wall to wall pulls as an argument, i just wish Holy Sheltron, TBN, and Heart of Corundum are invulns every 17 seconds for 8 seconds. :)

Mao nots tank and only does little bits healings. Mao mostly is BLMs. Mao askings why tanks get to do almost as much damage as Mao? Tank gets hit by boss, tank shrugs it offs. Mao gets hit by boss, Mao gets obliterateds. Seems to Mao that rights now is no reason to take anything but full party of WARs into fight. Mao seen same thing in GW2. Pallys in GW2 doings LOTS more damage than Elementalists. Is gets so bad that Mao came to FFXIV where Mao could play strong magic user agains. Now same thing happenings all over agains. Mao mights need find another game if this keeps happenings. Mao sad.

Honestly at this point going into a expert dungeon and the tank isnt a WAR then they are pretty much trolling IMO.

We really have to wait until media tour. There are countless other problems like with tanks leveling dungeons where at some levels the lack of mitigation on some tanks feel worse than the others. DRK under lvl 70 is griefing. PLD self sustain is only really at endgame dungeons, anything before that is their single target heal that is a dps loss and before that its nothing.

The question is are they going to gut the tanks self sustain( I doubt) or are they going to homogenize them and give the tanks that are lacking self sustain more and balance their dps equally.