Dawntrail - What abilities do you think need to be trimmed from the game?

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Yeah if healers can't, tanks shouldn't either

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I think healers should get light caster like rotations (such as procs, more casts that serve different reasons ect). So healers should tbh, also tanks should get better rotations

I think they should delete all skills and abilities from the game and just replace it with one single button called "do damage".

We need a mass un-trim

Honestly lately there are just a few actions that I think should get axed, and are the ones that are extremely redundant, like:

- Actions like Shoha II, Energy Siphon or any other "resource spender" that are just an AoE version of their single target iteration. Unless those spenders are mechanically different than their single target counterparts, the AoE falloff component should just be built in the single target action. This would cause very little impact to the job's complexity and free a keybind for something more unique.

- Not trimming per se, but merging actions that are conditional under other actions. Examples are Devilment>Starfall Dance, Draw>Play (ofc, if it remains as it is after the rework), Ley Lines > BtL, etc. It's interesting how they give this treatment to some actions but others remain untouched without any real reason.

I feel that some niche actions, like SMN's Physick, or AST's Synastry should defnitely be improved (or made actually usable, like SMN's) instead of axed. Situational actions aren't core to the rotation and they just add in to the (alrealy lacking) flavor of XIV's job design.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

Positionals as an idea are decent, but in practice they mostly just end up punishing you when you can't freely get behind or on the side of a boss due to mechanics and/or aoes.

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It doesn’t make any sense to me why we can’t have Monk be a positional-heavy melee job for the players who enjoy positionals, and let the other melees have few or even no positionals. We have a job system.

if only there were another role in the game that also use melee weapons but don't have positionals... hmm...

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

It doesn’t make any sense to me why we can’t have Monk be a positional-heavy melee job for the players who enjoy positionals, and let the other melees have few or even no positionals. We have a job system.

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I want all melee to have at least 3, people who don't like positionals have a world of choices out there, so they can go play those.
But they are not entirely wrong, something has to go, either giant wall bosses or True North, preferably both.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

I want all melee to have at least 3, people who don't like positionals have a world of choices out there, so they can go play those.
But they are not entirely wrong, something has to go, either giant wall bosses or True North, preferably both.

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The aspect of positionals that I really dislike in XIV is not even the mechanic itself, but that I've got no clue whether or not I hit positionals unless I'm at the right spot one gcd before.

I know for sure the netcode makes relative positions a bit wonky (I've played with another person right next to me with the same connectivity conditions and the desync is wild), and it makes me wonder if positional hits can be affected by that or if it's relative to my client.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlpaw

We need a mass un-trim

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I'd like Protect, Stoneskin II, and Aero 3 back.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

The aspect of positionals that I really dislike in XIV is not even the mechanic itself, but that I've got no clue whether or not I hit positionals unless I'm at the right spot one gcd before.

I know for sure the netcode makes relative positions a bit wonky (I've played with another person right next to me with the same connectivity conditions and the desync is wild), and it makes me wonder if positional hits can be affected by that or if it's relative to my client.

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They just need to finish adding a slightly different sound when you land a positional, some abilities already do it but not all, they could also add a new icon for the floating text similar to crit and dh indicators.
Either way at the end of the day it's not a big deal if you miss some due to the boss spinning, most of the time you can just 'lead' the positional once you learn how and when the boss is spinning, one could argue this is sort of equivalent to slide casting but if you don't land it really doesn't matter, I'm just happy to try and land as many as I can.

this and remove damage mit from dps

Remove all teleports and Aetherytes. We have chocobo porters and airship landings for a reason, you know. :P

On the topic of positional, I think it's a mechanic that adds difference and opportunity for varied play... I can respect that not everyone likes them (and not every job needs them), but if we removed them entirely.. without some other thought, we are continuingly complicit in the homogenization that we also complain about..

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

I'd like Protect, Stoneskin II, and Aero 3 back.

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For Protect and Stoneskin it might be nice to see them do something that gives them benefit to not be just a pre-party spell.

Perhaps like protect reduces damage, as we know, but for 10 seconds it will further reduce damage (so now you have a reason to recast it in fights- of course it gets a cooldown then). Like original stoneskin II, I don't think that'd be that great to fill up bar space /as it was/ but taking that protect approach again you might have something like AoE party shield (lasting a long time as before), chance on damage spell to trigger a free effect which causes you to regenerate the stoneskin of allies by some % and lightly damage nearby enemies (to make this less annoying there would be two buffs, one stone chalice that allows you to enfuse players with stone protection and then the stoneskin itself which naturally vanishes as the shield is used). Could use that mechanic for enstone spells (carry on that suggestion I had in another thread about splitting healers with offensive and support).

Another thought is, actually 'do' bring back out of combat spells, but they can be in their own little handy bar (like special actions for certain raids and island sanctuary). At that point can add a lot of goofy roleplay spells too, like how in WoW you could mind control someone as a priest lol. Since WHM has access to water, could be like water walking / skirt (gracefully dash across water surfaces out of combat), which was a random example and not something that I think must be done (that you could have an additional 'character' building bar that doesn't add clunk while directly in combat).

My main concern, and certainly one option is just for myself to play more compact jobs and ignore fat ones lol, is that if you add a bunch of spells like "cast once and ignore", which can add character, it just mainly serves to fill up the bar and take up space (imo). So I'd like to hope to encourage clever stacking of abilities where possible. 1 -> 2 -> 3, for example, is not, imo, really needed and could be collapsed and then if there is space add back perhaps an ability that does something entirely new and interesting.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

On the topic of positional, I think it's a mechanic that adds difference and opportunity for varied play... I can respect that not everyone likes them (and not every job needs them), but if we removed them entirely.. without some other thought, we are continuingly complicit in the homogenization that we also complain about..

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My issue with positions is they feel really tedious to use when attached to GCD abilities, the only positional I really liked was trick attack for that reason being a thing you cared about every 60s. So if more positionals were locked behind high cooldown abilities thats a reasonable design space to explore

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Originally Posted by Alwa

this and remove damage mit from dps

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Why?
Is it really that hard for DPS to press the faint/addle button to help the group? I don't know what's the Issue with DPS being able to contribute a small amount of mitigation (in a non DPS way) in a team based game.

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Originally Posted by BeserkFury

My issue with positions is they feel really tedious to use when attached to GCD abilities, the only positional I really liked was trick attack for that reason being a thing you cared about every 60s. So if more positionals were locked behind high cooldown abilities thats a reasonable design space to explore

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I don't know how positional are tedious to use, they're a way of optimising damage output, skill expression in fights that are varied, I think the issue is more that True North is so frequent and that hitboxes are pretty massive, I think having them behind large cooldowns kind of defeats the purpose of having them.

I think positional add a lot to the melee gameplay when done right, I don't think I'd enjoy melee without consistent positional, I'd prefer if they actually became more meaningful if anything.

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Originally Posted by BeserkFury

My issue with positions is they feel really tedious to use when attached to GCD abilities, the only positional I really liked was trick attack for that reason being a thing you cared about every 60s. So if more positionals were locked behind high cooldown abilities thats a reasonable design space to explore

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That's good feedback. Personally the positionals always threw me off in boss fights that had them and mechanics. I definitely don't think every melee has to have them or even have them in the same style, so your example could be one.

Just a concern about not having something unique replace a unique element that people have liked, just to see our jobs be even more similar. But the feedback on what you like and why is valuable. Others might be able to enhance differing elements of the system, or at least suggest alternatives. Then we have many diverse players preferred play style represented.

There are no positionals, just an ability called True North that sometimes boosts the damage of a few of my attacks.

BLMs Scathe xD

Reaper's Whorl of Death and Shadow of Death, as well as Soul Slice and Soul Scythe can both be consolidated into one AoE skill each, since one of those is just an AoE version of the other respectively and it wouldn't change the Reaper playstyle at all in terms of number of different buttons pressed in AoE/ST situations.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Reaper's Whorl of Death and Shadow of Death, as well as Soul Slice and Soul Scythe can both be consolidated into one AoE skill each, since one of those is just an AoE version of the other respectively and it wouldn't change the Reaper playstyle at all in terms of number of different buttons pressed in AoE/ST situations.

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Yeah this and stuff like DK's Abysal Drain and... whatever the english name for the single target skill is called lol.
Everything that shares an CD should be one skill. Just add the usual "looses 60% Potency after first target" or whatever. And use the freed up space for more interesting stuff.

What's there even left to trim?..

Make dots on bard relevant again or just get rid of them. They have no synergy with the job anymore. They are just there now to keep the job busy. They are absolutely useless now.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Make dots on bard relevant again or just get rid of them. They have no synergy with the job anymore. They are just there now to keep the job busy. They are absolutely useless now.

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Removing the DoTs would require a massive rework, as they do help fill the gauge and trigger procs.

Job balance, that needs to go. Making sure that every job can do every task has watered things down to near mediocrity. Each job should have a niche, synergies that work better with others. It should be setup that a task may be doable with enough effort, planning and creativity.

Also, the 2 minute meta, that should disappear. It takes away all creativity and leaves no optimization for specific events. It’s been 2 minutes, push the button, do the thing then wait.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Removing the DoTs would require a massive rework, as they do help fill the gauge and trigger procs.

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Not as of EW. It was changed so that, every 3 seconds, the song has a chance to proc it's repertoire effect regardless of whether you have a DoT up or not.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Shake is certainly more of a Issue here, the fact it heals, regen and shields is really odd, I think honestly I like the AOE healing aspect of these abilities it's very limited and the barrier aspect is good, I'd certainly nerf Shake's healing, I'd even be fine with DV being nerfed somehow, but I like that PLD's can actually provide aoe support to allies, It fits the job. If we wanted to remove aoe healing then the arguement shouldn't just be about tanks as a lot of DPS also provide AOE healing.

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The reason they added a heal/regen is purely for Savage and Ultimate. Much like Bloodwhetting, it's not nearly as powerful there as people think. For any multi hitting attack like Hallowing Hell, Styx or just close together raid wides, old Shake was simply worse than Dark Missionary and Heart of Light. Now they may have gotten a little too heavy-handed with how much it heals but I suspect that was due to them being terrified of buffing Warrior's damage despite it actually needing it throughout most of the expansion. I think a decent enough change would be removing the heal but leaving the regen.

Otherwise, I tend to agree with your overall sentiment. Tank sustain is a little too high but that's a combination of them having far too much mitigation and stuff barely tickling nowadays. Much like the healers having far too many oGCD that essentially trivialize any decision making.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Why?
Is it really that hard for DPS to press the faint/addle button to help the group? I don't know what's the Issue with DPS being able to contribute a small amount of mitigation (in a non DPS way) in a team based game.

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Unfortunately, yes. As someone who has healed in PF, it's more than a little frustrating how infrequently Feint, Addle and even Samba/Tactician/Troub are pressed. Granted, I don't want them removed but it's still annoying. I've even be yelled at to "just shield!!!" because, of course, it's the healer's fault.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I don't know how positional are tedious to use, they're a way of optimising damage output, skill expression in fights that are varied, I think the issue is more that True North is so frequent and that hitboxes are pretty massive, I think having them behind large cooldowns kind of defeats the purpose of having them.

I think positional add a lot to the melee gameplay when done right, I don't think I'd enjoy melee without consistent positional, I'd prefer if they actually became more meaningful if anything.

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My issue with positionals is bosses lately turn far too irregularly, and I'm at the mercy of tanks positioning properly. Add to the fact we've been getting fights like P11S where it's downright impossible to get all your positionals even with True North stacks unless you do a strat specifically tailored to them, which PF does, and it just becomes more of a chore than anything engaging.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

My issue with positionals is bosses lately turn far too irregularly, and I'm at the mercy of tanks positioning properly. Add to the fact we've been getting fights like P11S where it's downright impossible to get all your positionals even with True North stacks unless you do a strat specifically tailored to them, which PF does, and it just becomes more of a chore than anything engaging.

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I think the biggest problem with positionals is that they aren't a reward. You hit them to do the expected, homogenized par damage. Change them to something like double the potency of the normal hit, true extra damage beyond what's intended for the fight, and you'll quickly find people everywhere magically learning how to be combat ballerinas within the hour.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

My issue with positionals is bosses lately turn far too irregularly, and I'm at the mercy of tanks positioning properly. Add to the fact we've been getting fights like P11S where it's downright impossible to get all your positionals even with True North stacks unless you do a strat specifically tailored to them, which PF does, and it just becomes more of a chore than anything engaging.

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Which is really just down to the dev's design decisions again. Since 90% of the difficulty comes from boss mechanics nowadays every harder fight has turned into a spam fest that constantly forces you across the map, the movement is down to all newer bosses auto positioning after everything they do (often in nonsensical ways as well, why does Nald'thal turn south with every mechanic when the general consensus is to tank the boss facing north and has been for years? Who on the dev team looked at that and thought "Looks good, ship it!"?).

Would the removal of those put even more emphasis on tank positioning? Yeah, and it's honestly how it should be. It might be occasionally really annoying when you get a tank that just spins the boss constantly, but it should also remove jerky boss movement when you actually have a good tank...and the beyblade tank will simply have to learn that their terrible movement makes it harder for everyone else.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Snip.

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Thanks for the reply I can certainly see your perspective I agree with a lot on what you said, I'll just go in order from what you replied.

Tank sustain/Mitigations, I think tank mitigations being strong would at least be balanced If tanks weren't already outright super powerful defensively, I think tuning down on mitigation is fine in general, but I think the most important part about making tanks/healers more fun would be a general rework in both to feel more active then the current design imo, which leans into both tanks and healers just having way too much for the actual mitigation, healing ect. that goes onto the tank and party. If shake was changed to just regen/barrier instead I'd also like that regen aspect for Paladin, if we removed the heal as in general the Regen I feel works better, I think tank sustain warrior wise that's kind of what makes warrior, well warrior I like the big self sustain I'm just not a fan of the team/group sustain on it design wise that being said stuff like shake healing and regen and the AOE sustain on BW (yeah i get this doesn't come up in raiding) can be a bit... too much?, while with PLD its biggest sustain is selfish through Magic attacks, and I'm not really a fan of burst sustain being tied to your DPS burst, as it feels like when you're not holding aggro it goes to waste a lot.

For faint, addle & ranged mitigation, I think they add a bit of depth to melee/magic, I realise some people really don't use it but its one small thing that can be seen as what makes a decent DPS to what makes a good Dps, Ranged in particular should keep mitigations, Job guide lists them as providing support and if they're always going to be the lowest damage dps group I think they should actually provide strong utility. (This sort of relates to why I like tanks having strong team mits/shields, It just adds more depth and ways to help healers which I find fun)

For positionals, I get that I see them more of a reward for hitting them, rather then if I don't always hit it I'm getting punished but I can get why that would be annoying if you had a tight DPS check, I think for certain fights they can just make positional not matter if it's really hard to design that particular fight around them, I know some fights would just be better made without them (I'm not a fan of massive hitboxes nor bosses auto moving), but I really enjoy how positional feel personally, I wouldn't want them just to "remove it" because that seems like how ff14 is balancing everything lately, remove it or make it not important, rather then looking at the key issues and trying to fix that.

I doubt they will, and I make this in jest, but:

Peloton
Foot Graze
Leg Graze
Sleep
Repose
Leg Sweep
True North (and by extension positionals)

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Healing abilities on tanks. We have healers to do that.

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This, so much.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

This, so much.

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ok so remove mitigations on healers because we have tanks to mitigate?
Remove Dps from tanks/healers because we have Dps to deal damage?

I think it's perfectly fine that tanks have limited forms of healing, such as sustain, such CDs Healing allies, which actually fits tanks like PLD and GNB, It shouldn't replace healers but the reason why we have no healer runs is more of the fact that healing in this game is so low that you really don't need healers, not that tanks have some healing abilities, you can actually have tanks have healing abilities while still requiring a healer for content, both aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm unsure why we need to remove tank healing from the game, I can understand reducing it in some instances, but this idea that we suddenly need to remove all forms of tank healing makes no sense and feels like people think that removing tank healing would suddenly fix healer?

It just feels to me that people think making tank worse will fix healer, when in reality both support roles need to be more defined in the first place, instead of boring dps with healing/mitigation on the side.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

ok so remove mitigations on healers because we have tanks to mitigate?
Remove Dps from tanks/healers because we have Dps to deal damage?

I think it's perfectly fine that tanks have limited forms of healing, such as sustain, such CDs Healing allies, which actually fits tanks like PLD and GNB, It shouldn't replace healers but the reason why we have no healer runs is more of the fact that healing in this game is so low that you really don't need healers, not that tanks have some healing abilities, you can actually have tanks have healing abilities while still requiring a healer for content, both aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm unsure why we need to remove tank healing from the game, I can understand reducing it in some instances, but this idea that we suddenly need to remove all forms of tank healing makes no sense and feels like people think that removing tank healing would suddenly fix healer?

It just feels to me that people think making tank worse will fix healer, when in reality both support roles need to be more defined in the first place, instead of boring dps with healing/mitigation on the side.

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If you removed Warrior's healing, I would honestly never play tank again. The other 3 tanks suck in comparison. Dark Knight is boring, Paladin is too involved, and Gunbreaker is just a mess. I don't do endgame, so this is a casual perspective.

Also, yes, positionals can also die in a fire. I do them, but I watch people not do them every day to such a degree they're not something people as a whole want. Endgame people, sure, but those people aren't the majority.

That is all.

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Originally Posted by Ardeth

Also, yes, positionals can also die in a fire. I do them, but I watch people not do them every day to such a degree they're not something people as a whole want. Endgame people, sure, but those people aren't the majority.

That is all.

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If only FFXIV had some sort of class system where players could actively change between which play styles they want to play. That way we could have one positional heavy job for the players that enjoy positionals, some with few positionals, and others with none at all.

If only we had something like that. What a shame that we don’t.

If they trim anything else off this game, they'd have a visual novel.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

ok so remove mitigations on healers because we have tanks to mitigate?
Remove Dps from tanks/healers because we have Dps to deal damage?

I think it's perfectly fine that tanks have limited forms of healing, such as sustain, such CDs Healing allies, which actually fits tanks like PLD and GNB, It shouldn't replace healers but the reason why we have no healer runs is more of the fact that healing in this game is so low that you really don't need healers, not that tanks have some healing abilities, you can actually have tanks have healing abilities while still requiring a healer for content, both aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm unsure why we need to remove tank healing from the game, I can understand reducing it in some instances, but this idea that we suddenly need to remove all forms of tank healing makes no sense and feels like people think that removing tank healing would suddenly fix healer?

It just feels to me that people think making tank worse will fix healer, when in reality both support roles need to be more defined in the first place, instead of boring dps with healing/mitigation on the side.

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https://media.tenor.com/D47I8y_einUA...ne-too-far.gif

Fair, not all healing. It's just... weird, when I'm running an average dungeon with a Warrior and I might as well be playing DPS or not even be there because I seriously feel I'm not needed at all.

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

https://media.tenor.com/D47I8y_einUA...ne-too-far.gif

Fair, not all healing. It's just... weird, when I'm running an average dungeon with a Warrior and I might as well be playing DPS or not even be there because I seriously feel I'm not needed at all.

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I can totally agree that warrior in dungeon runs isn't fun for healers, I think that's a issue with how warrior's sustain works in AOE, I think that's partly a Issue with how warrior's AOE ability to self heal like that is designed, while also a issue in dungeons not really hitting hard enough even when wall to wall, but warrior would most likely be busted for all types of content in AOE, The older (when warrior gets their short CD) dungeons its way way easier to tank as Warrior then any other tank, so there needs to be a nerf to the AOE healing warrior gets on mob pulls, which I know will be unpopular but I rather healers actually get to heal.

If we leave out tanks like warrior when you also look at the tanks like Dark Knight who can also get by wall to walls pretty easily now (at least in the newer dungeons) with little to no sustain, Healers don't likely need to even ogcd heal a good drk much, I've not viewed it as a really just as a healing issue, I've been playing healers and tanks and at this point in the new dungeons any tank can pretty much get the run done without a healer or little to no actual healing, PLD/GNB both do sustain in a fairly balanced way, I will say PLD leans a bit too much on the self sustain so I wouldn't mind changes there, but in general both forms of sustain should compliment healers instead of replacing them (which is mainly a thing because the lack of damage output in casual content).

I think the actual issue is more back to fight design, AOE design, Healer/tank designs with the current system have way too much ogcd, mitigations, healing in general which makes using your defensives or healing not really feel impactful, I'm not a expert on how to fix this, I just think people get the wrong idea that nerfing tanking healing to nothing will suddenly fix the game, But I can understand why people would want to actually feel important as a healer, I personally want tanks & healers to work together!, instead of healers or tanks not feeling important.

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Originally Posted by KenZentra

If they trim anything else off this game, they'd have a visual novel.

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If all you do is MSQ then you might think it already is one.

Remove GCD healing from healers. It's actually miserable. No one wants to play healers because people like doing damage. Tanks suffered for years and now that they can self sustain and do decent damage a lot more people are willing to play them. The sad reality is a lot of people just care about feeling useful and seeing big numbers. That's just how mmos work. So let's get them invested in a dying role.

As someone who pretty much only heals or tanks I can safely say if you just made it so healers healed by doing damage rotations more players would be willing to jump in. Do we really want another stack of expansions with a healer drought. You're always waiting on them.

Maybe the new melee class will have 0 positionals to appeal to those that don’t like them or whatever.
I like them on monk anyway, no opinion on the other melee.