Second Wind is a terrible ability and either needs redesigned or outright removed.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Never said I didn't use it, just that it's heal to CD ratio is ridiculously small.

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It heal enough to keep you from dying when the next hit will barely kill you. It's not something to top you off, not something that allows your healer to ignore you, or something that let you ignore where the healer is (range DPS staying in lala land) , or heal enough to keep you alive when half of your party forgot their mit.

Its worthless. I can't hardly even think of a time I really even needed to use it. I use bloodbath way more and it has only a 90 second cd compared to 120 second cd for Second wind. Only change I could see is making it a 60 second cd. Super potions heal for about the same amount as second wind does.

I think it's an okay ability. I just wish it heals flatly based on hp% rather than what we have right now. It heals good amount on lower level but loses effectiveness as we level up. Somewhere from 10% - 20% would probably suffice.

I think it works as intended. An instant but small amount of healing meant to save you when there is nothing else. It’s an emergency backup and it is not meant to replace healers. It saved me quite a few times when I knew my health wouldn’t be quite high enough to survive the next attack while waiting for real healing. Bloodbath doesn’t heal you instantly and it’s useless if you have to get away from the boss.

I wouldn't mind Second Wind getting a healing potency buff or even a shield buff with it.

I also wouldn't mind ranged DPS getting blood bath, even a version for magical DPS.

Saying Second Wind is just fine when it crits just screams "Second Wind is not fine at all." So, 80% of the time it isn't very good and the other 20% it is great. This is why tanks don't have mitigation abilities that "sometimes work." Let's say that Sheltron can block 20% but sometimes blocks 0%. Is it even worth using?

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Originally Posted by Toutatis

Bloodbath doesn’t heal you instantly and it’s useless if you have to get away from the boss.

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Which in today's game is very rare with the larger boss target markers

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Saying Second Wind is just fine when it crits just screams "Second Wind is not fine at all." So, 80% of the time it isn't very good and the other 20% it is great. This is why tanks don't have mitigation abilities that "sometimes work." Let's say that Sheltron can block 20% but sometimes blocks 0%. Is it even worth using?

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Then I'll say this. I've used the move for years and have never once felt it didn't heal enough. It does what it's meant to do. The question of worth is pointless because that's subjective.

Also what kind of comparison is that? When tf have you ever seen a Second Wind heal for 0%? It always works. That's is the fact of the matter

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Saying Second Wind is just fine when it crits just screams "Second Wind is not fine at all." So, 80% of the time it isn't very good and the other 20% it is great. This is why tanks don't have mitigation abilities that "sometimes work." Let's say that Sheltron can block 20% but sometimes blocks 0%. Is it even worth using?

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Its fine when it doesn't crit. It serves exactly the purpose it needs to serve which is a small heal that would save you from what otherwise would probably be death from a raid wide. People need to get over the idea that its supposed to be this big chunk heal when that's not its purpose. It would be broken if it healed for more than it already does.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Its fine when it doesn't crit. It serves exactly the purpose it needs to serve which is a small heal that would save you from what otherwise would probably be death from a raid wide. People need to get over the idea that its supposed to be this big chunk heal when that's not its purpose. It would be broken if it healed for more than it already does.

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they could double the potency of Second Wind and make it auto crit heal, and it'll still be trash.

and if Second Wind healing more is broken, i guess since all melee get Bloodbath, they're broken now? that'll heal for more than SW could hope too, and its on a shorter cd too.

not even mentioning the third personal cd all melees except DRG get (Life Surge heals, but you're not using it for that) that give shields/healing/mitigation, the shields SMN/BLM get, and Curing Waltz and Improvisation on DNC.

BRD and MCH have suffered enough this expac and the last. surely they can at least get some extra survivability for these niche situations where the supports have dropped the ball. literally all the other dps have them.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

they could double the potency of Second Wind and make it auto crit heal, and it'll still be trash.

and if Second Wind healing more is broken, i guess since all melee get Bloodbath, they're broken now? that'll heal for more than SW could hope too, and its on a shorter cd too.

not even mentioning the third personal cd all melees except DRG get (Life Surge heals, but you're not using it for that) that give shields/healing/mitigation, the shields SMN/BLM get, and Curing Waltz and Improvisation on DNC.

BRD and MCH have suffered enough this expac and the last. surely they can at least get some extra survivability for these niche situations where the supports have dropped the ball. literally all the other dps have them.

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^^ This person gets it. Melee have had multiple self heals for years and MCH/BRD have had a single sh!tty one that heals, on average, for 7% max health every 2 minutes.

*removes Kaiten*
*keeps second wind*

It's the small things in life that make me laugh, lol. Though SW was made when the classes/jobs were not just boiled down to dps/utility dps/dps with aggro. I would be shocked if there wasn't a rework or removal of the skill by the end of 7.0.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

they could double the potency of Second Wind and make it auto crit heal, and it'll still be trash.

and if Second Wind healing more is broken, i guess since all melee get Bloodbath, they're broken now? that'll heal for more than SW could hope too, and its on a shorter cd too.

not even mentioning the third personal cd all melees except DRG get (Life Surge heals, but you're not using it for that) that give shields/healing/mitigation, the shields SMN/BLM get, and Curing Waltz and Improvisation on DNC.

BRD and MCH have suffered enough this expac and the last. surely they can at least get some extra survivability for these niche situations where the supports have dropped the ball. literally all the other dps have them.

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Bloodbath shouldn't exist imo and second wind is fine the way it is.

I don't believe in the design idea of self sustainability for dps and tanks. You're taking away from the role of healers too much by doing that which is why small heals like second wind are fine and why the insane self healing warrior has is stupid. Mitigation is one thing, but self healing should be extremely limited.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Its fine when it doesn't crit. It serves exactly the purpose it needs to serve which is a small heal that would save you from what otherwise would probably be death from a raid wide. People need to get over the idea that its supposed to be this big chunk heal when that's not its purpose. It would be broken if it healed for more than it already does.

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We are in agreement. There was an earlier post about how "Second Wind is good when it crits." It was directed at that - I guess the quote didn't go through right.

I'd leave SW alone.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Bloodbath shouldn't exist imo and second wind is fine the way it is.

I don't believe in the design idea of self sustainability for dps and tanks. You're taking away from the role of healers too much by doing that which is why small heals like second wind are fine and why the insane self healing warrior has is stupid. Mitigation is one thing, but self healing should be extremely limited.

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I dunno. Other jobs should have some sustain for solo play. Just not so much that it completely invalidates healers in group content, like warriors. Second Wind and Bloodbath can save you in a pinch, but they can't carry you through an entire dungeon run.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

they could double the potency of Second Wind and make it auto crit heal, and it'll still be trash.

and if Second Wind healing more is broken, i guess since all melee get Bloodbath, they're broken now? that'll heal for more than SW could hope too, and its on a shorter cd too.

not even mentioning the third personal cd all melees except DRG get (Life Surge heals, but you're not using it for that) that give shields/healing/mitigation, the shields SMN/BLM get, and Curing Waltz and Improvisation on DNC.

BRD and MCH have suffered enough this expac and the last. surely they can at least get some extra survivability for these niche situations where the supports have dropped the ball. literally all the other dps have them.

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It's crazy to see folks call it trash. For something that's so trash it sure as hell gets alot of use

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

^^ This person gets it. Melee have had multiple self heals for years and MCH/BRD have had a single sh!tty one that heals, on average, for 7% max health every 2 minutes.

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SW is actually closer to 14%. It's a 500 potency heal, so it isn't anything to scoff at. I know the 500 pot is not the same as a healer's 500 pot, but it's enough of a restore to get your HP to a more comfortable state. Even more so if it crits. Also, the "Well, melees get to have it" approach isn't a very good angle. Should physical ranged get Feint as well?

Also don't forget about super potions. The HQs can be used nearly once per minute, and even though it is a fixed 3600 HP, you can combine it with SW for an even bigger boost to your HP restore.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

SW is actually closer to 14%. It's a 500 potency heal, so it isn't anything to scoff at. I know the 500 pot is not the same as a healer's 500 pot, but it's enough of a restore to get your HP to a more comfortable state. Even more so if it crits. Also, the "Well, melees get to have it" approach isn't a very good angle. Should physical ranged get Feint as well?

Also don't forget about super potions. The HQs can be used nearly once per minute, and even though it is a fixed 3600 HP, you can combine it with SW for an even bigger boost to your HP restore.

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Feints are for melee DPS, physical ranged gets partywide -10% mitigation.

They are correct about Phys Ranged having nothing else beside SW to heal themselves. The furthest they can go about recuperating loss health for BRD is to Minne themselves before SW, and DNC to abuse their Improv & stack their Curing Waltz with their partner. MCH have… nothing else(?). They would be able to kite comfortably if only bosses hitboxes aren’t so humongous lately lol.

I wish using Super Potions won’t lock you out of tinctures though :(

More sustain is the last thing DPS needs, for phys. ranged however? Maybe, but DPS (every role in general actually) have a mountain of problems to solve first, Second Wind is not one of them.

It's in the list of skills/spells I think should be removed. Its just a button bloat button. There's more important ones to fix the landscape of role over reaching. Like verraise, vercure, smn Resurrection, all the tank healing, curing waltz, shields on pure healers, regens on shield healers... Should lock Phoenix downs to healers and remove their raises.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Bloodbath shouldn't exist imo and second wind is fine the way it is.

I don't believe in the design idea of self sustainability for dps and tanks. You're taking away from the role of healers too much by doing that which is why small heals like second wind are fine and why the insane self healing warrior has is stupid. Mitigation is one thing, but self healing should be extremely limited.

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They're already gave tanks ridiculous amounts of self-sustain, so it's not just the DPS taking the role of healers too much. They might as well give healers more DPS skills and then give ranged DPS another way to self-sustain, then call it a day. After all, it's not like healers will feel better to play in solo content and be told to go play DPS anyway. >.>

Second Wind is fine.

Now some of the Physical Ranged Role Actions do need to be tweaked for group or Raid content because lemme tell you... Leg Graze and Foot Graze are only useful in like... solo PotD.

its crazy how resistant to change people are. for Second Wind of all things.

where was this energy when the devs took Bard, Scholar and Astrologian behind the shed and lobotomised them with a shotgun in Shadowbringers?

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

its crazy how resistant to change people are. for Second Wind of all things.

where was this energy when the devs took Bard, Scholar and Astrologian behind the shed and lobotomised them with a shotgun in Shadowbringers?

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There's a difference.

In this situation, people are merely suggesting a change, and people are resisting it before it reaches the devs.
In those situations you described, the devs just took those classes behind the shed, lobotomized them without concern or being properly informed and then just showed up like "damage is done, enjoy your oversimplified job".

On the first case, people can still prevent that. On the second, people had to deal with it and anyone who wasn't okay with it was just being "too negative™" and a nasty contrarian.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

Second Wind is fine.

Now some of the Physical Ranged Role Actions do need to be tweaked for group or Raid content because lemme tell you... Leg Graze and Foot Graze are only useful in like... solo PotD.

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In my perfect world abilities that didn't apply debuffs to mobs / bosses would do damage instead. Low Blow included.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

There's a difference.

In this situation, people are merely suggesting a change, and people are resisting it before it reaches the devs.
In those situations you described, the devs just took those classes behind the shed, lobotomized them without concern or being properly informed and then just showed up like "damage is done, enjoy your oversimplified job".

On the first case, people can still prevent that. On the second, people had to deal with it and anyone who wasn't okay with it was just being "too negative™" and a nasty contrarian.

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Except it didn't work exactly like that. Let's take SCH's ability Energy Drain for example:

Devs showed the ability being removed in the pre-patch, healers universally said this was a BAD idea because at the time SCH's mana regeneration was tied to Energy Drain not Aetherflow like it is now.

Devs refused to budge, Energy Drain was removed, lo and behold exactly what we said happened and the Devs were forced to give it back (not even mentioning SCH had no Aetherflow dump after the change so we just fired off useless heals).

Stuff exactly like that is why the devs stopped giving out detailed changed pre-patch notes.

But then they dropped bombshells and basically said "deal with it" which made the players even more angry because we felt our feedback was meaningless and job balance was terrible.

So then they had to backtrack AGAIN.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Except it didn't work exactly like that. Let's take SCH's ability Energy Drain for example:

Devs showed the ability being removed in the pre-patch, healers universally said this was a BAD idea because at the time SCH's mana regeneration was tied to Energy Drain not Aetherflow like it is now.

Devs refused to budge, Energy Drain was removed, lo and behold exactly what we said happened and the Devs were forced to give it back (not even mentioning SCH had no Aetherflow dump after the change so we just fired off useless heals).

Stuff exactly like that is why the devs stopped giving out detailed changed pre-patch notes.

But then they dropped bombshells and basically said "deal with it" which made the players even more angry because we felt our feedback was meaningless and job balance was terrible.

So then they had to backtrack AGAIN.

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It was also a mix of that and the fact that whenever they nerfed anything, people would start saying crap about it before it was even released. And on the SCH thing, it wasn't just the MP economy that went down the drain. It was also the fact that they didn't have any dump other than helas for their aetherflow stacks.

But that's the thing. What I said was an oversimplification. Overall, yeah, that IS how it worked. The devs tend to throw some random decision, DON'T take feedback, and then have the absolute gall of saying stupid crap like "Oh, we weren't expecting that reaction from our playerbase..."

Though... in some aspects, I can't blame them. The way people reacted to the removal of Kaiten all but validates their concerns.

But in comparison to what Tlachtga said, yeah, the player reaction is different. There will always be people against additions\reworks to the game. It's just that there's little point in fighting it when the devs implement stuff, because they rarely ever change stuff back. It took SCHs not playing the class at all for them to give them back Energy Drain and Miasma 2.

Do we really need less reasons for healer to exist?

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

its crazy how resistant to change people are. for Second Wind of all things.

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Do you say it to everyone who don't agree with any change you propose regardless of its merit?

Have you ever considered people resist some change because they're just ... uh ... bad change?

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

They're already gave tanks ridiculous amounts of self-sustain, so it's not just the DPS taking the role of healers too much. They might as well give healers more DPS skills and then give ranged DPS another way to self-sustain, then call it a day. After all, it's not like healers will feel better to play in solo content and be told to go play DPS anyway. >.>

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No I rather them cut out a bunch of mitigation from both tanks and dps because its jeoperdizing the point the holy trinity roles.

With tanks mitigation makes sense but it really shouldnt be as abusive as it is where healers arent needed for survivability, so I would like for them to seriously nerf those abilities. DPS however should have practically no self-sustain, their best defense should be their best offense so skills like Second Wind and Bloodbath are perfect enough for that design as it isnt completely OP.

I tell you, if they heavily nerf tank mitigation, Im sure youll have a lot more healers satisfied with being useful using their hefty healing toolkits in all forms of content and we wouldnt be having this "boring healers" conversation.

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Originally Posted by Gullis

Do we really need less reasons for healer to exist?

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Second Wind isn't what caused that question :P Isn't that right, WAR mains?

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Second Wind isn't what caused that question :P Isn't that right, WAR mains?

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I'm surprised you're leaving out PLD with their offensive misuse of GCD. :D

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

No I rather them cut out a bunch of mitigation from both tanks and dps because its jeoperdizing the point the holy trinity roles.

With tanks mitigation makes sense but it really shouldnt be as abusive as it is where healers arent needed for survivability, so I would like for them to seriously nerf those abilities. DPS however should have practically no self-sustain, their best defense should be their best offense so skills like Second Wind and Bloodbath are perfect enough for that design as it isnt completely OP.

I tell you, if they heavily nerf tank mitigation, Im sure youll have a lot more healers satisfied with being useful using their hefty healing toolkits in all forms of content and we wouldnt be having this "boring healers" conversation.

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Tell me that after you do the MSQ and every other content only as a healer. Have fun pressing Glare. You'll learn to hate solo instances quite quickly once you realize you only have 2 buttons because the incoming damage is made for a DPS to handle and you have a NPC healer doing the healing for you.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Feints are for melee DPS, physical ranged gets partywide -10% mitigation.

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I'm not quite sure why you're pointing this out. The point behind my comment about the melees also having SW along with any other self-sustain tools they have is not a valid argument to let Physical ranged classes have access to more self-sustain abilities. Melees having more self-sustain is an advantage they have, and it should be ok for certain roles to have advantages over others. Regardless of larger hit boxes to assist the melees, they still have positionals and forced downtime to worry about.

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They are correct about Phys Ranged having nothing else beside SW to heal themselves. The furthest they can go about recuperating loss health for BRD is to Minne themselves before SW, and DNC to abuse their Improv & stack their Curing Waltz with their partner. MCH have… nothing else(?). They would be able to kite comfortably if only bosses hitboxes aren’t so humongous lately lol.

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I never argued that she was wrong. I just corrected the amount SW typically restores and also mentioned another option with Super Potions to help. DNC is the exception, but she might not like that job. As for Tinctures, if you're in a clear/farm party, then you shouldn't be needing the potions, or SW all that much anyway.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Tell me that after you do the MSQ and every other content only as a healer. Have fun pressing Glare. You'll learn to hate solo instances quite quickly once you realize you only have 2 buttons because the incoming damage is made for a DPS to handle and you have a NPC healer doing the healing for you.

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I indeed have. But wanna know something? You only do MSQ instances once, group content you do them forever.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

I indeed have. But wanna know something? You only do MSQ instances once, group content you do them forever.

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Great. Then tell those people who want to go through MSQ as a healer "You only need to suffer through the MSQ once every expansion, which can take upwards to 20 hours from beating up monsters alone or doing some solo instances. It's not a big deal because you're only doing it once!" I love to see how many people would say "Yeah, that's perfectly fine by me! I don't mind pressing 2 buttons in every expansion AND patch cycle until I get to group content! There's no way I wouldn't just swap roles instead because I found it too boring!"

Sorry for sounding really harsh, but that's really what it feels like you're telling me whenever I want to go through the MSQ as a healer. That sounds like a second class citizen kind of thing. No wonder Derplander is never a healer in the trailers. The MSQ is really just not meant for a healer. At that point, you might as well just make all healers maximum level if they're just there for group content.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I'm surprised you're leaving out PLD with their offensive misuse of GCD. :D

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?? Girl... you only saw that on one thread, and you're immediately jumping to think I'm all that? Stop judging books by the cover, you're not the fun troll you think you are.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

Great. Then tell those people who want to go through MSQ as a healer "You only need to suffer through the MSQ once every expansion, which can take upwards to 20 hours from beating up monsters alone or doing some solo instances. It's not a big deal because you're only doing it once!" I love to see how many people would say "Yeah, that's perfectly fine by me! I don't mind pressing 2 buttons in every expansion AND patch cycle until I get to group content! There's no way I wouldn't just swap roles instead because I found it too boring!"

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tbh even if we only go through the experience once and all that you said, we're still going to be pressing the same button even past that in group instances. Even if we do have to heal, so what? Imagine a Bard with only the songs and Bloodletter. That's how it feels to play healer. Sure you press other buttons, but for the most part you're literally just pressing the same one/two.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

tbh even if we only go through the experience once and all that you said, we're still going to be pressing the same button even past that in group instances. Even if we do have to heal, so what? Imagine a Bard with only the songs and Bloodletter. That's how it feels to play healer. Sure you press other buttons, but for the most part you're literally just pressing the same one/two.

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Yeah, pretty much. What they're vouching for is Shadowbringer healers minus WAR, and what the healer feedback after Shadowbringers was to bring back more utility & DPS skills like DoTs from Stormblood because downtime is inevitable regardless of which tank they're healing. Healer downtime will always exist because the content is designed for all types of players - from casual level of healers that fluctuates from casting GCD heals nonstop to healers who can DPSing nonstop and rely only on oGCDs in between. Reducing tank mitigations only serve to make healing harder for the worst healers, not more enjoyable for the healers who can already handle damage.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

?? Girl... you only saw that on one thread, and you're immediately jumping to think I'm all that? Stop judging books by the cover, you're not the fun troll you think you are.

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I'm teasing. :) And as I said, it's a recurring topic with people.

(I'm tons of fun and a ray of goddamn sunshine :D )

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I'm teasing. :) And as I said, it's a recurring topic with people.

(I'm tons of fun and a ray of goddamn sunshine :D )

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Of course you are! You're Azem, you're not meant to be anything less!!

Anyway, sorry for being aggressive :x