Paladin doesn't suck, 2 minute rotations just ruined combat

Dont see them changing the 2minute formula anytime soon. Especially since they are reworking PLD to make it fit and then DRG and AST

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Originally Posted by Derio

Dont see them changing the 2minute formula anytime soon. Especially since they are reworking PLD to make it fit and then DRG and AST

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Same. I wonder how much design space there exists under this paradigm. Really excited for the Paladin rework. I hope they try something bold and new.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Dont see them changing the 2minute formula anytime soon. Especially since they are reworking PLD to make it fit and then DRG and AST

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This is exactly my point. Two min burst is here to stay, and going to such great lengths to change and adjust jobs is a telling sign imo. The older jobs are getting outdated do to the shear fact that the newer jobs have been setting the example for years now. It's no longer viable to have jobs designed with ARR, Heavensward, and Stromblood blue prints. Like it or not....savage and ultimate set the stage for how jobs are designed. When you have to perform at such high levels, your job has to just work under heavy load.

Design flaws are starting to show with certain jobs:

Monk - Pretty much nearly unfixable in it's original state and was the outlier for literal years. Monk was it's on worst enemy with RNG, and it's ridiculous amount of bloat that nobody used. Six sided star, tornado kick (pre ogcd), anatman, one ilm punch, stances, greased lightning.
Summoner - Complete revamp due to an incredibly punishing rotation that was probably worse then PLD is now. Summoner was incredibly strict and offered zero room for error.
Bard - Considerable changes from it's original iteration. Believe it or not...but Bard used to have cast bars and use MP. Was also damn near required for MP regen in some raids pre lucid dreaming added in Stromblood. Also had a TP regen...anyone remember TP?
Machinist - This job was incredibly niche to play...maybe more then bard. Was it ok...yeah. But then ShB came in and basically removed ALL RNG on the job. Relaxed it's burst a bit. Removed Guass barrel. Removed Ammo. Removed the TP and MP regen on automaton. This job needed a huge fix going into ShB...or it would have NEVER worked.
Dark Knight - needed a huge overhaul to stay competitive with warriors late stormblood reign. No tank could hold a candle to WAR dps in 3.0 and 4.0. DRK got a very unwelcome rework in ShB, but it is pretty one of the best DPS tanks. Go figure.
Astrologian - This job made HUGE changes in Endwalker...and it's FAR from perfect compared to the other healers. It's NOT user friendly. Has/had a steep learning curve for years. This is another Monk situation, and AST has lost it's direction. This will be yet another back to basics rework I'm afraid and be more akin to WHM eventually. Possibly something like, every 30 seconds a card is automatically drawn and added to your deck for you cast heal, AOE heal that also damages, and use 3 cards for a crown play that does misery level damage. The current AST is just to hard to balance...it always has been.

The list continues with PLD, DRG, and dare I say BLM. I'm honestly surprised BLM has made it this far with out incredibly drastic changes to it's core design. Maybe save enochian no longer needing to be used.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Even if jobs are Mostly meant to be burst jobs, it shows you can't have sustained jobs at all, which frankly is boring design, Everyjob wasn't as "bursty" before EW, even if they were pretty bursty. Every direction for endwalker job design has been "More burst!!!".

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You can if you create off-rhythm events for which the timing of damage matters, because then one has the choice between

• holding (and thereby wastefully desyncing) a section of CDs,
• [If we returned to multiple timing templates] investing in an off-rhythm section (90s CD users among a primarily 120s comp), or
• bringing enough sustain to not care about the minor dps checks (though, those would of course siphon from major dps checks).

Or, more simply put, if you want multiple rhythms [sustained, 40s, 45s, 60s, 90s, 120s, 150s CDs... all of which naturally tend to coalesce towards a single dominant timing template for "synergy"], you need fights that need multiple rhythms.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

^And that's why there should be no timed party damage buffs at all.

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I'm assuming this is sarcasm, but just in case it is not...

That everything pushes towards synergy around a lowest common denominator (or, with less potential for negative tone, what all or what little is in common between job kit timings) does not require that we either build around a single template. Rather, it simply pushes constraints elsewhere -- to fight design. Granted, it is a far tricker constraint, especially when trying to remain accessible without being reliant on capped or near-capped gear.

Presently, the timing by which damage is available IS the timing by which damage is done, simply because there is no reason to hold onto CDs (outside of Radiant Finale), in turn because there are so few relevant DPS checks or other means of enticing that behavior. Give those reasons, though, across multiple timing templates, and suddenly (especially with a lenient enough enrage) putting all one's eggs in a single basket becomes a hazard. You start to see additional reason to take sustained DPS or especially flex (those like SAM or DRK who have highly bankable output) even if they don't maximize synergy; you start to see reason to dabble in multiple timing templates ("rhythms"), even if one may remain dominant for the particular fight.

The difficulty, of course, is in balancing accessibility vs. mechanical relevance, since now job viability would require both -- the brittleness of certain kits in attempting to recover desynced tools vs. splitting the comp vs. simply taking enough sustained to deal with all minor checks (without failing major or final dps checks), whilst keeping minor, major, and final DPS checks all relevant. You don't want players to be required to have pre-figured optimal ways of meeting the particularities of a fight via compositions, but you do want those fight's peculiarities to be relevant so that compositional selection doesn't just devolve to caring only about final checks and therefore investing only in the best set of synergies among bursty buffers+exploiters (which, to be relevant at all, must be tuned to outperform sustained dps in a perfected/optimal comp).

:: Note that this does not mean that every DPS check needs to be pass or wipe; you can have something charge up even the most lenient of resource-taxes --say, a big damn DoT or a loss to Attack Power & Offensive Magic Power-- that scales with remaining unit HP, boss phasal HP, "cast armor," etc., such that failure to meet a check makes the next one that much harder, without being an instant wipe.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

This is exactly my point. Two min burst is here to stay, and going to such great lengths to change and adjust jobs is a telling sign imo. The older jobs are getting outdated do to the shear fact that the newer jobs have been setting the example for years now. It's no longer viable to have jobs designed with ARR, Heavensward, and Stromblood blue prints. Like it or not....savage and ultimate set the stage for how jobs are designed. When you have to perform at such high levels, your job has to just work under heavy load.

Design flaws are starting to show with certain jobs:

Monk - Pretty much nearly unfixable in it's original state and was the outlier for literal years. Monk was it's on worst enemy with RNG, and it's ridiculous amount of bloat that nobody used. Six sided star, tornado kick (pre ogcd), anatman, one ilm punch, stances, greased lightning.

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These issues actually have/had nothing to do with the 2-minute formula, though, and little even to do with later day job design trends (beyond portion of damage that can exploit buffs; even portion of damage exploiting buffs hasn't much changed, since the modifiers were greater back in the day). Nor were they worsened by it. (See/expand below.)

While we couldn't hold onto a TFC specifically for raid buffs, we still tended to generate multiple within any full raid burst, so the banking margin was more the issue than the RNG when it comes to 2-minute meta play.
It took only 4 GCDs to get up to speed (essentially 3 in late Stormblood due to WT-RoW), so original GL wasn't uniquely slowing down raid burst.

Six-sided Star and Anatman, meanwhile, are just bad for their own reasons, and not even for the niche they provide towards so much as that they're both underpowered tools. SSS is tuned too low to be more than painfully niche for most content and Anatman's value usually falls to about 40 relative potency simply because it of its unnecessary constraints / lack of sensible additions (no Chakra generation). They're both well allocated tools; they simply need to do more.

The same could be said for old Tornado Kick. It was a partial (i.e., nearly tuned around PB) refund on potency lost to ramping up GL that could be spent early if one desired. It made perfect sense up until GL was (needlessly but not, imo, too harmfully) removed. (Also, it being oGCD is the old design. The GCD design, as an obsolete Blitz finisher, is the new.)

Similarly, One-Ilm Punch was never any issue, as Monk had more than enough AoE despite spending 1 in 3 sustained GCDs in AoE on single-target skills (ultimately just offering it a bit more focus targeting atop a fully decent AoE kit). Rockbreaker was tuned to do then what Shadow of the Destroyer does now, significantly more powerful than its competing AoEs (just one other in RB's case). It simply happened not to be well used even in what situations a DR-less stun might be useful because Monk was already strapped enough for TP (especially without wasting TFCs on Purification), since the devs could never be bothered to reiterate on that system itself before scrapping it entirely.

The same is mostly true of your other examples there. They haven't been left to dry due to the 2-minute meta or new job trends per se, but simply because of the removal of various keystone elements/systems/mechanics and players losing hope (or, becoming disillusioned) as to there ever being a place designed in for varied utility to see value.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Six-sided Star and Anatman, meanwhile, are just bad for their own reasons, and not even for the niche they provide towards so much as that they're both underpowered tools. SSS is tuned too low to be more than painfully niche for most content and Anatman's value usually falls to about 40 relative potency simply because it of its unnecessary constraints / lack of sensible additions (no Chakra generation). They're both well allocated tools; they simply need to do more.

The same could be said for old Tornado Kick. It was a partial (i.e., nearly tuned around PB) refund on potency lost to ramping up GL that could be spent early if one desired. It made perfect sense up until GL was (needlessly but not, imo, too harmfully) removed. (Also, it being oGCD is the old design. The GCD design, as an obsolete Blitz finisher, is the new.)

Similarly, One-Ilm Punch was never any issue, as Monk had more than enough AoE despite spending 1 in 3 sustained GCDs in AoE on single-target skills (ultimately just offering it a bit more focus targeting atop a fully decent AoE kit). Rockbreaker was tuned to do then what Shadow of the Destroyer does now, significantly more powerful than its competing AoEs (just one other in RB's case). It simply happened not to be well used even in what situations a DR-less stun might be useful because Monk was already strapped enough for TP (especially without wasting TFCs on Purification), since the devs could never be bothered to reiterate on that system itself before scrapping it entirely.[/HB]

The same is mostly true of your other examples there. They haven't been left to dry due to the 2-minute meta or new job trends per se, but simply because of the removal of various keystone elements/systems/mechanics and players losing hope (or, becoming disillusioned) as to there ever being a place designed in for varied utility to see value.

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I was comparing the end game to the newer better designed classes to how outdated the old ones were in terms of shear playability. The ones that I mentioned were very strong candidates of needing rework.

I'm not really sure why people have jumped on this bandwagon only now, but a focus on party based burst has existed for as long as Trick Attack was added to the game (i.e. October 2014). The only thing that has changed over time is that both the developers and the general playerbase at large have become more conscious of how important those buffs actually are. So individual buffs are less dominant and mandatory, and they line up in a more consistent way. You're no longer forced to bring the same privileged jobs expansion after expansion. And you're less punished for teammates' mistakes.

I do see some benefit in reviewing older jobs (and giving them fresher animations). There are some actions that are just clunky because nobody has scrutinized them enough over the years to make a change, Divine Veil being one of them. You don't have to break the entire job down and rebuild it to do so, though.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I'm not really sure why people have jumped on this bandwagon only now, but a focus on party based burst has existed for as long as Trick Attack was added to the game (i.e. October 2014). The only thing that has changed over time is that both the developers and the general playerbase at large have become more conscious of how important those buffs actually are. So individual buffs are less dominant and mandatory, and they line up in a more consistent way. You're no longer forced to bring the same privileged jobs expansion after expansion. And you're less punished for teammates' mistakes.

I do see some benefit in reviewing older jobs (and giving them fresher animations). There are some actions that are just clunky because nobody has scrutinized them enough over the years to make a change, Divine Veil being one of them. You don't have to break the entire job down and rebuild it to do so, though.

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I agree. Personally I could go either way on 2min burst going, or raid buffs going. Either or but not both. Wouldn't matter to me. Sometimes I have to take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

2 min burst and raid buffs generally only REALLY matter in savage and ultimate. This is my opinion.

I have never called out 2 min in a PF EX fight or unreal. Never in a dungeon, but I do actually put forth a good effort to do my savage opener on every boss (more of a habit now).

So this whole 2 min and raid buff discussion is ONLY around savage and ultimate. Well I can only speak for savage as I just don't have the patience or drive to finish an ultimate.

The pros and cons of 2 min burst and raid buffs scales differently for certain jobs.

Warrior Pros with raid buffs in mind:
1 min burst
Easy rotation
Easy Opener
Virtually 0 drift as long as you hit Inner Release as soon as it's up.
No oGCD damage buff, sustained damage buff

Warrior Cons with raid buffs in mind:
Some savage fights have busy 2 min marks, tank busters, mechanics to solve
Sometimes have to triple weave mitigation (P6S is good example. Vengeance, Thrill, and Nascent with a synergy TB, which also have to cram in provoke or shirk depending, and also hitting inner release, onslaught, 3 fel cleaves, Primal Rend, Infuriate, and Inner Chaos....that's a lot of crap to hit almost every 2 min when party buffs go out)

Now with all that said DRK would have WAY different pros and cons. So would PLD and GNB. I know for a fact my OT DRK just struggles this tier with his opener...it's a lot to do leading into a tank buster right off the bat in P6S.

I'm just indifferent I suppose on this whole 2 min burst and raid buffs. I only notice it WAY more when I play PLD.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Same. I wonder how much design space there exists under this paradigm. Really excited for the Paladin rework. I hope they try something bold and new.

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Sorry to be the party pooper but they won't innovate. Their history shows they will homogenize and simplify.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm assuming this is sarcasm, but just in case it is not...

That everything pushes towards synergy around a lowest common denominator (or, with less potential for negative tone, what all or what little is in common between job kit timings) does not require that we either build around a single template. Rather, it simply pushes constraints elsewhere -- to fight design. Granted, it is a far tricker constraint, especially when trying to remain accessible without being reliant on capped or near-capped gear.

Presently, the timing by which damage is available IS the timing by which damage is done, simply because there is no reason to hold onto CDs (outside of Radiant Finale), in turn because there are so few relevant DPS checks or other means of enticing that behavior. Give those reasons, though, across multiple timing templates, and suddenly (especially with a lenient enough enrage) putting all one's eggs in a single basket becomes a hazard. You start to see additional reason to take sustained DPS or especially flex (those like SAM or DRK who have highly bankable output) even if they don't maximize synergy; you start to see reason to dabble in multiple timing templates ("rhythms"), even if one may remain dominant for the particular fight.

The difficulty, of course, is in balancing accessibility vs. mechanical relevance, since now job viability would require both -- the brittleness of certain kits in attempting to recover desynced tools vs. splitting the comp vs. simply taking enough sustained to deal with all minor checks (without failing major or final dps checks), whilst keeping minor, major, and final DPS checks all relevant. You don't want players to be required to have pre-figured optimal ways of meeting the particularities of a fight via compositions, but you do want those fight's peculiarities to be relevant so that compositional selection doesn't just devolve to caring only about final checks and therefore investing only in the best set of synergies among bursty buffers+exploiters (which, to be relevant at all, must be tuned to outperform sustained dps in a perfected/optimal comp).

:: Note that this does not mean that every DPS check needs to be pass or wipe; you can have something charge up even the most lenient of resource-taxes --say, a big damn DoT or a loss to Attack Power & Offensive Magic Power-- that scales with remaining unit HP, boss phasal HP, "cast armor," etc., such that failure to meet a check makes the next one that much harder, without being an instant wipe.

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Can someone translate this please? I assume you are saying that the pre-Endwalker model was better. If I understand this correctly it doesn't adress what I said.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I'm not really sure why people have jumped on this bandwagon only now, but a focus on party based burst has existed for as long as Trick Attack was added to the game (i.e. October 2014). The only thing that has changed over time is that both the developers and the general playerbase at large have become more conscious of how important those buffs actually are. So individual buffs are less dominant and mandatory, and they line up in a more consistent way. You're no longer forced to bring the same privileged jobs expansion after expansion. And you're less punished for teammates' mistakes.

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This is incorrect.

In EW, they made every job (sans PLD, sort of) to be forced into two minute timers. In the past, some had burst phases more around 80s, or 70s, or 90s, not every job was fully optimized at 120s. So if you tried to force everything into Trick Attack on every job, you'd actually lose significant DPS, so you would follow your own individual rotation more instead for optimizing damage. So no, "the only thing that has changed is player perception" is not correct. So many cooldowns were shifted into 60s and 120s, meaning you are conformed into this specific playstyle on all jobs now which causes each job to feel the same in many ways, and creates more punishment when there's drift than when there was before. Some jobs barely had to deal with drift, now every job is punished heavily for it. Calling it more "consistent" a misnomer because many jobs did not rely on Trick as much as they do now, meaning any mistakes from your party causes much more DPS loss for you that wasn't present before.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

This is incorrect.

In EW, they made every job (sans PLD, sort of) to be forced into two minute timers. In the past, some had burst phases more around 80s, or 70s, or 90s, not every job was fully optimized at 120s. So if you tried to force everything into Trick Attack on every job, you'd actually lose significant DPS, so you would follow your own individual rotation more instead for optimizing damage. So no, "the only thing that has changed is player perception" is not correct. So many cooldowns were shifted into 60s and 120s, meaning you are conformed into this specific playstyle on all jobs now which causes each job to feel the same in many ways, and creates more punishment when there's drift than when there was before. Some jobs barely had to deal with drift, now every job is punished heavily for it. Calling it more "consistent" a misnomer because many jobs did not rely on Trick as much as they do now, meaning any mistakes from your party causes much more DPS loss for you that wasn't present before.

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This pretty much sums up the issue we have with the 2 min burst. SE is just playing catch up to get all the jobs into a much more smooth transition into the raid buffs. The drift is an after thought of the implementation of the 2 min raid buffs and having everything align just right. They SHOULD have fixed all the jobs around this BEFORE implementing the 2 min burst or announcing it. 7.0 is is going to have a HUGE amount of work to get done with getting all the jobs to just function properly since this is the new direction. They have their work cut out for them. Which is why we are seeing some reworks done now...or some that were announced for 6.0 and pushed back to 7.0. SE knows they opened Pandora's box with all this 2 min burst...and it's the gamers that constantly remind them it's not done yet. They know. I'm pretty sure they are just closing their eyes with their arms crossed across their chest, and shaking their heads. Frustrating. Game development is NOT easy...and gamers take that for granted constantly. Changing something that we think is "simple", can be incredibly frustrating for a developer as you play whack-a-mole with issues. Not to mention the spaghetti code you have to navigate through...

I have always dreaded going back to code I have written, and shaking my head at the work arounds I came up with. To the user they are unaware of the coding shenanigans you have to go through to just appease them. A lot of times...a blank slate is the simplest way to fix something...your code beings more "elegant" and efficient.

I feel the pain the devs are going through.

There's actually nothing incorrect about what I stated, but thanks for quoting it on to the next page. Nor does your statement clash with mine.

The bit about burst 'lining' up is important, but what really matters is the LCM of when that occurs. It doesn't really matter if you're following a 30 second, 60 second, or 120 second cycle, because all of these will sync up, and there were plenty of privileged jobs that followed this principle in previous expansions. You still have jobs with odd cooldowns - Salted Earth/Salt and Darkness is deliberately set at 90 seconds to make DRK's weaving a bit more forgiving, but it's going to still sync up in the opener and every 6 minutes. You're just going to have a smaller set of players who are actually aware about this and optimize around it.

What always amuses me about this is that players often care more about the dps that they couldn't have than the dps that they could. You'll spend two years bickering on the forums about a few second drift on an ability and then lose several GCDs worth of raw uptime on every encounter you do that expansion. And when you finally get what you want, the rdps gain for doing it is rebalanced to account for the fact that everyone and their chocobo can now do it. Penny wise and pound foolish.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There's actually nothing incorrect about what I stated, but thanks for quoting it on to the next page. Nor does your statement clash with mine.

The bit about burst 'lining' up is important, but what really matters is the LCM of when that occurs. It doesn't really matter if you're following a 30 second, 60 second, or 120 second cycle, because all of these will sync up, and there were plenty of privileged jobs that followed this principle in previous expansions. You still have jobs with odd cooldowns - Salted Earth/Salt and Darkness is deliberately set at 90 seconds to make DRK's weaving a bit more forgiving, but it's going to still sync up in the opener and every 6 minutes. You're just going to have a smaller set of players who are actually aware about this and optimize around it.

What always amuses me about this is that players often care more about the dps that they couldn't have than the dps that they could. You'll spend two years bickering on the forums about a few second drift on an ability and then lose several GCDs worth of raw uptime on every encounter you do that expansion. And when you finally get what you want, the rdps gain for doing it is rebalanced to account for the fact that everyone and their chocobo can now do it. Penny wise and pound foolish.

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DRK Delirium used to be 90s. It rarely synced with Trick Attack, meaning DRK's burst windows and perceived playstyle felt very different than it does now. If every job bursts on 60s and 120s windows, then they all feel the same and are much less interesting or fun to play. It also means when a NIN drifts Mug now, or a DNC Technical Step, or a BRD's Radiant Finale, or whatever else, my DRK will suffer much more than it used to. And if I drift my Delirium or Carve and Spit or Blood Weapon, then I will suffer much more than I used to. And now this doesn't only apply to only DRK, but every single job in the game. Every job is doing the same burst at the same time in every fight and it's boring. I've come to learn that playstyle and job identity is more than just aesthetics and sound effects and how much you double weave or stand still, it's also the timings of your buffs and learning each individual fight's optimization for those timings. Now every fight optimizes nearly the same for every single job, whereas before you had vastly different optimizations with nearly every job.

A couple of issues with this.

First, unlike early Stormblood where players simply looked at raw dps numbers when evaluating jobs, rdps attributes damage to the job that provides the buff. So if a NIN drifts a raid buff because they died and messed up their resource counts and would rather hold buffs and scupper the raid as a result, that's just their own suboptimal play (and it hurts them too). You can't cross-compensate for that any more than you can a NIN who isn't pressing their buttons correctly (or at all). Second, it's not that setting some burst windows at 90s last expansion meant that players were oblivious to when buffs went out. Good players were still aware. But by standardizing the design it becomes obvious even to the average player. The design hasn't changed. The way you optimize hasn't changed. More people are aware of it, that's all. Which is a good thing.

I look forward to the day when players discover the 'uptime meta', where players that stay on the boss and press buttons do significantly more damage than those who don't.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

A couple of issues with this.

First, unlike early Stormblood where players simply looked at raw dps numbers when evaluating jobs, rdps attributes damage to the job that provides the buff. So if a NIN drifts a raid buff because they died and messed up their resource counts and would rather hold buffs and scupper the raid as a result, that's just their own suboptimal play (and it hurts them too). You can't cross-compensate for that any more than you can a NIN who isn't pressing their buttons correctly (or at all). Second, it's not that setting some burst windows at 90s last expansion meant that players were oblivious to when buffs went out. Good players were still aware. But by standardizing the design it becomes obvious even to the average player. The design hasn't changed. The way you optimize hasn't changed. More people are aware of it, that's all. Which is a good thing.

I look forward to the day when players discover the 'uptime meta', where players that stay on the boss and press buttons do significantly more damage than those who don't.

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and those that understand proper positioning is just as important as a well executed rotation. or being greedy dps can result in a wipe. and max melee is a real thing. or when to save an onslaught charge P6S when I'm forced to a corner to rush back in and doge the aoe, maybe 1-2 tomahawks....still better then 0.

There. Will. Always. Be. Burst. Windows.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Second, it's not that setting some burst windows at 90s last expansion meant that players were oblivious to when buffs went out. Good players were still aware. But by standardizing the design it becomes obvious even to the average player. The design hasn't changed. The way you optimize hasn't changed. More people are aware of it, that's all. Which is a good thing.

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The argument doesn't hold here because it was a massive DPS loss to hold many of your resources/CDs specifically for 60s/120s burst windows for many jobs in the past. Some resources you would, like DRK's Dark Arts in HW/SB or Edge of Shadows in SHB, but you certainly wouldn't hold Delirium for that long. Yes, you would sync up every what, 6 minutes or so in a fight, and that felt great, but missing that 6 minute window wasn't nearly as punishing as missing every single 60s/120s window due to a drift. The design has changed, the optimize has changed. Failing a 6 minute is much less significant than failing every 2 minutes without being able to recover and by that very definition, has changed everything. It means everyone's rotation is far more static and rigid than ever before. Sure, some jobs were always pretty rigid like PLD, but other jobs were about as flexible if not more than current MNK and it made optimization per fight and comp way more fun than currently.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

The argument doesn't hold here because it was a massive DPS loss to hold many of your resources/CDs specifically for 60s/120s burst windows for many jobs in the past. Some resources you would, like DRK's Dark Arts in HW/SB or Edge of Shadows in SHB, but you certainly wouldn't hold Delirium for that long. Yes, you would sync up every what, 6 minutes or so in a fight, and that felt great, but missing that 6 minute window wasn't nearly as punishing as missing every single 60s/120s window due to a drift. The design has changed, the optimize has changed. Failing a 6 minute is much less significant than failing every 2 minutes without being able to recover and by that very definition, has changed everything. It means everyone's rotation is far more static and rigid than ever before. Sure, some jobs were always pretty rigid like PLD, but other jobs were about as flexible if not more than current MNK and it made optimization per fight and comp way more fun than currently.

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Oh noes the game is more punishing (Good)

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Originally Posted by Mithron

The argument doesn't hold here because it was a massive DPS loss to hold many of your resources/CDs specifically for 60s/120s burst windows for many jobs in the past. Some resources you would, like DRK's Dark Arts in HW/SB or Edge of Shadows in SHB, but you certainly wouldn't hold Delirium for that long. Yes, you would sync up every what, 6 minutes or so in a fight, and that felt great, but missing that 6 minute window wasn't nearly as punishing as missing every single 60s/120s window due to a drift. The design has changed, the optimize has changed. Failing a 6 minute is much less significant than failing every 2 minutes without being able to recover and by that very definition, has changed everything. It means everyone's rotation is far more static and rigid than ever before. Sure, some jobs were always pretty rigid like PLD, but other jobs were about as flexible if not more than current MNK and it made optimization per fight and comp way more fun than currently.

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Yeah I don't know if I just get behind this anymore. The 2 min burst isn't that hard, and again only applies to savage and ultimate where maybe less then 5% of the community engage in. Nobody lines up burst in EX or dungeon.....nobody. I don't waste my pots in EX or dungeon....that's just a waste of gil.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Oh noes the game is more punishing (Good)

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There's a difference between rigidity and difficulty. Memorizing patterns and executing them (especially on a training dummy) is not necessarily difficult, while being flexible in each moment-by-moment scenario often takes far more skill in most environments. I don't consider Castlevania 1 NES to be a very difficult game because I can beat it with no deaths due to memorizing it, but sure it's punishing for mistakes. A game I would say that's far more difficult is DQXI Draconian Mode where you really need to plan and react accordingly, so you can't just memorize and automatically succeed.

Of course difficulty is subjective still, but you don't comprehend that.

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

Yeah I don't know if I just get behind this anymore. The 2 min burst isn't that hard, and again only applies to savage and ultimate where maybe less then 5% of the community engage in. Nobody lines up burst in EX or dungeon.....nobody. I don't waste my pots in EX or dungeon....that's just a waste of gil.

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It isn't necessarily about being hard, but about it being fun or well designed. Remember less than 10 total PLDs/WARs worldwide could clear P8s week 1, and a lot of that I believe is due to this 2 minute design. DPS disparity has reached up to 15% in some cases. So not only are things less balanced than in Creator/SB/SHB, but most people (myself included) find them to be much less enjoyable.

I love how someone with no raiding experience tries to give insight on it

It's kinda depressing that some view "job identity" as when a job bursts.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

The two minute meta is arguably the root cause behind why job balance is the worst it's been since Gordias, and we most definitely need to be telling developers our thoughts on it.

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I'm sorry what?

Job balance was way farther out of whack in HW & SB than it is in EW.

WAR was so god tier in HW (and to a lesser extent, SB) that you were literally griefing your raid group by not bringing one.
Outside of some very fringe fights, PLD was basically on life support for most of HW due to extremely bad mitigation against magic damage with lackluster dps on top.
Between Trick Attack and the sheer aggro power due to shadewalker & Smokescreen, NIN was effective god tier outside of fringe comps.
DRG was the sole provider of Piercing debuff, causing many Ranged players to refuse to join PF parties unless there was a DRG in them because that 10% was major for them.
AST was on complete life support until they gave it a massive injection of Overpoweredness in 3.4, then remained a guaranteed lock until 5.0 because cards were so ridiculously strong in a meta all about buff stacking.
WHM was on life support for basically the entirety of SB because it gave nothing raid buff wise and its own dps couldn't compete with the buff stacking meta. A similar issue as BLM & SAM back then as well, to the point it was pretty common to find PFs 'forgetting' to include BLM, SAM & WHM in the role slots.

EW's job balance hasn't been stellar, but lets not pretend from behind rose tinted glasses HW or SB were some magical zenith of job design or balance. The differences between viability of jobs in HW & SB from one job in a role compared to another were sometimes magnitudes of massive more than differences in performance of jobs in EW, like WAR vs PLD in HW, compared to EW where outside of the most extreme scenarios like P8s week 1, you can pick any two tanks and not care.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

I love how someone with no raiding experience tries to give insight on it

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I've been raiding since I started the game a couple weeks before 3.4 launched, A9s was my first Savage.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

It's kinda depressing that some view "job identity" as when a job bursts.

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Timings matter a lot. A mechanic at 60s may be much different than at 80s, especially when you have different skill/spell speeds.

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Originally Posted by Daeriion_Aeradiir

Job balance was way farther out of whack in HW & SB than it is in EW.

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Did Creator/SB have jobs that had less than 10 total clears worldwide on week 1 like P8s did for PLD/WAR? Was there 15%~ DPS disparity?

Yes or no.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I've been raiding since I started the game a couple weeks before 3.4 launched, A9s was my first Savage.

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Your character shows otherwise

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Your character shows otherwise

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I'm literally wearing savage gear lmao, but regardless ad hominem means failed stance. Enjoy adding to another of your many losses.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

I'm literally wearing savage gear lmao, but regardless ad hominem means failed stance. Enjoy adding to another of your many losses.

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Not an ad homimem, but correlation. A ring (LOL) and no logs basically shows you don't really have the knowledge to back up your statements. You still don't understand that syncing buffs already existed, and was pushed for by the player base, and this was the logical conclusion

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Yes or no.

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I'm going to say yes, just because I'm curious to see what sources you're referring to.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Not an ad homimem, but correlation. A ring (LOL) and no logs basically shows you don't really have the knowledge to back up your statements. You still don't understand that syncing buffs already existed, and was pushed for by the player base, and this was the logical conclusion

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ad hominem

1: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect

2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

I keep my fflogs private. :^) I already pointed out how syncing raid buffs inherently is not a bad thing, nor is it completely new since EW, only that every job with nearly every raid buff being synced to 120s is not enjoyable or good design, and why. I have also admitted how I was also one of the player base pushing for it, and how much I regret it now that we have it.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

ad hominem

1: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect

2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

I keep my fflogs private. :^) I already pointed out how syncing raid buffs inherently is not a bad thing, nor is it completely new since EW, only that every job with nearly every raid buff being synced to 120s is not enjoyable or good design, and why. I have also admitted how I was also one of the player base pushing for it, and how much I regret it now that we have it.

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Again, not an ad homimem, correlation. Bads don't understand balance, I didn't make the rules. And you've done no such thing in regards to showing how it isn't good design, when it objectively is. It. Is. Good. For. Balance.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

...

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I think that somewhere along the way, stating that 'the two-minute meta is destroying the game' has become perceived as a clever and insightful thing to say, but players have stopped actually thinking about why they might agree or disagree with that statement. I'm having an increasingly harder time actually linking your arguments back to this claim. I'm not even sure that you know why you're defending the sentiment at this point.

Pretty much all Heavensward/Stormblood openers were designed around when Trick happened. So playing around party buffs isn't a new thing, even if you didn't understand why your opener was designed the way it was. Holding resources or timing buffs to occur during your highest potency GCDs is an even older concept.

Target dummy rotations have never really been the main challenge in this game. The main reason why you're going to mess up your burst window alignment is because of a death, rather than pressing the wrong button (or at least I hope that's the case, by this point in the expansion). If you want a rotational challenge, then you probably need a job designed around procs and branching decisions around those. Outside of that type of design, on most jobs you'll probably be able to narrate out GCD sequences to specific mechanics once you understand the puzzle pieces of a fight. In fact, I think you'll get more interesting gameplay out of variable/branching fight patterns than you would out of changing anything up on job design, but that's a different discussion altogether.

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Can someone translate this please?

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You claimed that we should just remove all raid buffs... because "^" (carrot / up arrow).

Normally, I would think that would mean you were pointing to a prior post or, at a stretch, to the OP. But neither the prior post nor the OP give rationales that would warrant the removal of raid-buffs.

On the off chance you were pointing to the post immediately prior to yours, which was mine, I explained why my reasoning given (that all raid-buffs push players towards a single rhythm of CDs to buff damage and damage to exploit those buffs, regardless of whether that be a 2-minute interval or not / we've done this since NIN anyways) doesn't mean that you have to get rid of raid buffs.

Instead, it simply means that you have to design fights within a particular balance of allowing for multiple compositions (no "need X comp to avoid wiping") while still including reasons to take non-meta jobs (i.e., jobs that are outside of just whatever rhythm creates the best total DPS in dummy fight scenarios) through minor DPS checks that do not match those meta comps' CD rhythm.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

It isn't necessarily about being hard, but about it being fun or well designed. Remember less than 10 total PLDs/WARs worldwide could clear P8s week 1, and a lot of that I believe is due to this 2 minute design. DPS disparity has reached up to 15% in some cases. So not only are things less balanced than in Creator/SB/SHB, but most people (myself included) find them to be much less enjoyable.

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You're forgetting fight design. PLD shined in fights where uptime was hard to get. This entire tier uptime is 100%, so it has fallen behind. It's not the 2 minute cooldown causing it, it's the devs having made the fights with 100% uptime in mind. Hell, they're actually reconsidering the ranged tax for this very reason.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You claimed that we should just remove all raid buffs... because "^" (carrot / up arrow).

Normally, I would think that would mean you were pointing to a prior post or, at a stretch, to the OP. But neither the prior post nor the OP give rationales that would warrant the removal of raid-buffs.

On the off chance you were pointing to the post immediately prior to yours, which was mine, I explained why my reasoning given (that all raid-buffs push players towards a single rhythm of CDs to buff damage and damage to exploit those buffs, regardless of whether that be a 2-minute interval or not / we've done this since NIN anyways) doesn't mean that you have to get rid of raid buffs.

Instead, it simply means that you have to design fights within a particular balance of allowing for multiple compositions (no "need X comp to avoid wiping") while still including reasons to take non-meta jobs (i.e., jobs that are outside of just whatever rhythm creates the best total DPS in dummy fight scenarios) through minor DPS checks that do not match those meta comps' CD rhythm.

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Yeah, but wouldn't it be much cooler if jobs or fights didn't have to be designed around those windows?

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Originally Posted by Eisi

Yeah, but wouldn't it be much cooler if jobs or fights didn't have to be designed around those windows?

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Not really, no. That'd just remove an interesting aspect of play (however overmuch it might seem at the moment) with... nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Not really, no. That'd just remove an interesting aspect of play (however overmuch it might seem at the moment) with... nothing at all.

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So if there existed a job concept which is not feasible with either iteration of raid buffs and which you would personally regard as worth the cost of how exciting you think raid buffs are you would agree with me?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Instead, it simply means that you have to design fights within a particular balance of allowing for multiple compositions (no "need X comp to avoid wiping") while still including reasons to take non-meta jobs (i.e., jobs that are outside of just whatever rhythm creates the best total DPS in dummy fight scenarios) through minor DPS checks that do not match those meta comps' CD rhythm.

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Just to play devil's advocate here, but the 60/120s bursts also restrict boss design.

Say you want to have an add that comes out at 20 seconds, or 40 seconds past the minute and it is designed that you need to burst it down. With the 60/120 second design, you cannot do that, this type of add has to come at the 60 second intervals so that the group can kill it, then you have to make it stronger to compensate. If group bursts were different, you only need 1 or 2 to use their burst, which isn't an issue as they line up anyway.

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To go back to discussing the 60/120. It has been mentioned that all groups lined up at 6 minutes in past expansions. This was the big burst phase (after fight opening), however, with EW design, that 6 minute burst now comes 3 times as often and is now much stronger due to new actions in EW. Where, in the past you might double your DPS every 6 minutes, you now double it every 2 minutes, which in turn brings up how important these burst phases are in relation to the whole fight.

Also, I don't understand the obsession with 60/120. For sake of argument, let's say we will keep the 120 burst, no problems there, but why do we need to keep to the 60 second burst? No job has a raid buff at 60 seconds, so, in theory, the mini bursts don't have to come out at 60 seconds, they could come out at 40 seconds and still line up with the big 2 minute burst. You could also have a job that doesn't have a mini burst and just has the big burst every 2 minutes, with a more sustained damage output for the rest of the time. This would at least allow the jobs to feel different between the 2 minute bursts.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I think that somewhere along the way, stating that 'the two-minute meta is destroying the game' has become perceived as a clever and insightful thing to say, but players have stopped actually thinking about why they might agree or disagree with that statement. I'm having an increasingly harder time actually linking your arguments back to this claim. I'm not even sure that you know why you're defending the sentiment at this point.

Pretty much all Heavensward/Stormblood openers were designed around when Trick happened. So playing around party buffs isn't a new thing, even if you didn't understand why your opener was designed the way it was. Holding resources or timing buffs to occur during your highest potency GCDs is an even older concept.

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The two-minute meta is destroying the game because every job feels the same to play and is far more rigid than ever before because the game is more than just your opener, while also causing such high disparity that a Savage fight needed to be nerfed in addition to two jobs receiving buffs at the same time because it was that bad.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

You're forgetting fight design. PLD shined in fights where uptime was hard to get. This entire tier uptime is 100%, so it has fallen behind. It's not the 2 minute cooldown causing it, it's the devs having made the fights with 100% uptime in mind. Hell, they're actually reconsidering the ranged tax for this very reason.

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Fight design is a big deal, but you know what constricts fight design the most? Every job being on a two-minute window. The whole point of this thread was to emphasize the strengths of PLD due to it being unique.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

For sake of argument, let's say we will keep the 120 burst, no problems there, but why do we need to keep to the 60 second burst? No job has a raid buff at 60 seconds, so, in theory, the mini bursts don't have to come out at 60 seconds, they could come out at 40 seconds and still line up with the big 2 minute burst.

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Because some job buffs (DRK's Delirium, for example) used to be on a 90s cooldown instead of 60, making it feel very different and having different burst windows outside of 120s. Many other jobs had timers around 70 and 80 seconds as well, so your "burst phase" was very different and interesting. Sure they would align with 120s windows sometimes, but not every 120s.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Just to play devil's advocate here, but the 60/120s bursts also restrict boss design.

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*laughs in Asphodelos Savage*

The 2m bursts tended to line up with big mechanics. The tiles in P1S, P2S limit cut, P3S cross-hatch AoE into Wing (that one was hell on your fingers), P4S Pinax. The devs seemed to have purposefully timed things to happen right when the burst windows were starting up. Kinda wish they had done the same this tier, would have loved to experience the hell that would be Cachexia during a burst window.