I recently got back in the game, so I've only recently got my first clear of P5S, but TBN has been pretty decent for Toxic Bite/Venomous Mass. TBN's 15 second cooldown really shines through for mitigating the DoT of yourself and your co-tank, as I can initially put TBN+Oblation on myself to mitigate the initial damage and then the DoT, and then cover the main tank's DoT with another TBN since the CD is so short. Not to mention Venom Surge/Squall. The extra mitigation for the auto-attacks+DoT is really nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
Not to say DRK doesn't need more sustain; I still wish Abyssal Drain had some more raid use.
DRK vs. WAR: how do they compare?
Printable View
-
09-07-2022, 11:36 AMSazuzaki
-
09-07-2022, 11:48 AMSazuzaki
I'd say DRK feels like a more offensive WAR. I say this cause they play little similarly offensive wise with Inner Release/Delirium and Beast/Blood Guage, but play completely different defensively.
WAR feels like you're playing around how low you can get your health to maximize healer damage, and then get your health back up with Thrill of Battle + BW + Equilibrium.
DRK feels like you're putting your DPS on the line with TBN to maximize mitigation and also healer damage.
Though changes to Delirium and the Blood Gauge would be really appreciated -
09-07-2022, 11:55 AMRyuDragnierI really wish AD was the MP spender and not Flood. No Darkside gain, has the same initial damage as Edge, but with a 400 Cure Potency and a 35% drop in damage for each enemy hit other than the original target. Cure Potency would drop to 200 per other enemy hit as well (if you really wanted to avoid it being busted in dungeons).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazuzaki
-
09-07-2022, 12:09 PMSazuzakiAgreed, I'll type out the rest of my reply in the Dark Knight Megathread as to not go off-topic in this oneQuote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
-
09-07-2022, 03:47 PMLieri
DRK : Your average My Chemical Romance fan
WAR : Your average Linkin Park fan who is angry at their dad
Pick your poison -
09-07-2022, 10:31 PMCasualtyPerhaps, but you get to snapshot each of those dots with oblation, dark mind, and either rampart or shadow wall. If you hit TBN at the very beginning of the cast you can also hit it again mid-way through the dot, if you *really* need the extra survivability. I am noticeably less squishy than my WAR co-tank this tier.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
-
09-08-2022, 12:57 PMcoffeeZealotDo you mean how Party finder groups are banning certain tanks? I think that's less of a problem with the job damage and more of a problem with certain members of the community.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
-
09-08-2022, 01:04 PMAbsurdityIn this case it isn't a problem with members of the community or party finder enforcing some nonsense meta, there is in fact a clear problem with job balance right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by coffeeZealot
Bringing Paladin and Warrior instead of Gunbreaker and Dark Knight can cost you as much as 600 dps, that may not sound like much but with P8S phase 1's dps check being so tight it actually is. Granted other jobs have it even worse, bringing a Redmage instead of a Blackmage can cost you 1k dps. Those are numbers that absolutely can determine whether you beat the enrage or not. -
09-13-2022, 06:42 PMMalthir
In a nutshell, Warriors are the best main tank in the game, Drks are the best off tank in the game. Warriors have decent damage almost the same as DRK's but with much greater sustain, Dark's damage is higher than warriors so taking one give a dps increase and added in that they can use TBN on allies means you can aid the main tank when tank busters hit allowing you to dps more.
-
09-13-2022, 06:53 PMfulminating
Everything warrior does drk does better, why bother?
-
09-14-2022, 03:05 AMRyuDragnierWait, DRK has insane self-sustain to where it can easily heal itself?Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
-
09-14-2022, 03:51 AMwyznwybthe only environment warrior actually has better mitigation than any other tank is in the exact, specific context of wall-to-walling in dungeons, an environment which none of the tanks are actually balanced around--and to be frank, dark knight isn't even that much worse when you actually consider how quickly mobs melt with all of its AOE abilities. otherwise, warrior's short-term mitigation is worse, with an underwhelming heal on single target, a tiny shield and a 10% mitigation when every other tank has an equivalent that is far better (and, in the blackest night's case, has a much shorter cooldown), and its one unique party-wide mitigation requires you to spend at least one other mitigation to be useful compared to something like dark missionary. its one niche in 6.0 was that it had a short cooldown on holmgang, except not only does dark knight have an objectively better version of holmgang after 6.1 with an only slightly longer cooldown, but because every tankbuster in 6.2 gives a massive bleed/poison that can immediately kill the tank if they aren't actively mitigating it anyways, the one thing you used holmgang on is simply not something you do anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
people confuse dark knight's mitigations being unwieldy as them being weak, and to be honest, it's the perception of dark knight's stuff being weak that's most of the reason dark knight is absurdly strong right now. the way you've described oblation in another thread is a perfect example of this; dark knight is the only tank that can immediately give three single-target mitigations to other party members for very little cost, something that even paladin, the support tank, isn't allowed to do, and something that can actively save runs the moment a fight actually stresses good mitigation like in the most recent ultimate, but because two of those mitigations are merely good enough to make people survive attacks that'd kill them, as opposed to being two charges of nascent flash, is that truly supposed to be not good enough? -
09-14-2022, 04:26 AMOizen
We just pretending that Nascent flash doesnt exist again right
-
09-14-2022, 04:41 AMForteNightshadeNascent Flash/Bloodwhetting are comically overrated. In a dungeon setting, the latter is an absolute monster. No doubt about it. Alas, in Savage, Heart of Corundum is simply better. Even TBN is comparable. At the end of the day, self-healing simply isn't as good as mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
-
09-14-2022, 05:07 AMRyuDragnierIf you're with a healer who you know. If you don't know the healer or if they're underperforming, you'd rather have the self-healing, every day of the week.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
-
09-14-2022, 07:31 AMAbsurdityExcept that Bloodwhetting can't save you there either, it's not any stronger than HoC or Holy Shelltron in a single target situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
-
09-15-2022, 11:10 AMAbsimiliardI.. what? Where would you even get some of these ideas? Even after the 6.21 buff WAR is still lagging way the heck behind DRK. There is a significant problem with their DPS at this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malthir
That WAR sustain is super overestimated, too. It's great in dungeons, but it won't get you very far in raids. The dots and other debuffs being left behind by tankbusters this time around pretty much negate that advantage right out of hand, so all people start noticing is the fact the WAR just took more damage than a DRK would have because its mitigation isn't as beefy. -
09-30-2022, 03:53 AMMrZalgo
After having played WAR for the entirety of Asphodelos before moving into DRK for Abyssos I can comfortably say that DRK is way more comfy when it comes to mits compared.
Whether you want to use TBN as early as possible for two procs or use it as late as possible to mitigate DOT to its entirety, TBN is just way too strong and useful to not use in any case. Compared to Bloodwhetting where the single target heal just can't save you through the ridiculous damage the DOT does by itself. Being able to apply TBN to other players also makes it amazingly useful for invuln cheesing since it also allows you to get procs off of your partner if they are invulning something like P7S condensed. TBN by itself can also break P5S TBs since it significantly reduces the damage the MT will be taking before you tankswap and mit the Toxic Crunch.
Dark Mind is just broken this tier. Damn near everything is magic damage so Dark Mind just makes DOTs or just straight TBs feel like wet noodles sometimes.
Dark Missionary is a significant reduction in raidwide damage, way more than what Shake it Off can pull. Especially since Shake it Off requires Thrill of Battle to be able to compare comfortably with other raidwide mits.
Oblation I can honestly go devil's advocate and say that Oblation feels really good for what it does. Oblation and TBN is an extremely powerful mitigation combo since it mits alongside with the shield TBN pulls. Not to mention Oblation can be given to other party members, which helps greatly with reducing the damage another party member will take with a different mechanic altogether. It's almost designed as such even with it being under 2 charges compared to other short cooldown mitigations. -
09-30-2022, 04:44 AMRithy255I think looking at both HOC and BW side by side shows BW is actually pretty similar in mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
HOC = 15% + 15%
BW = 10% + 10% and a shield for around 7-10% of your HP
Both work out pretty strong, considering that the shield also has your mit stacked with it BW's actual mitigation is fairly decent despite what people have been saying, this shows they're actually not far off from each other on single target ignoring healing
This ontop of having the stronger healing effect (ignoring how flash is a outright better bw for a friend), I would consider BW The best personal even in single target, TBN also is the best depending on the situation as it's hard to compare TBN to other tanks personals. -
09-30-2022, 05:05 AMMrZalgoTBN is an interesting case where by itself TBN can reduce a significant amount of damage a TB does, but because most of the TBs have DOTs attached to them, you want to use TBN rather aggressively. As mentioned above you can use it early to reduce the TB itself and force a proc, while also being able to use it again in the middle of the DOT to reduce 1-2 ticks to force a second proc. You could also use it in the middle of the DOT to force a safe proc and save it for the 3/5 burst you need to keep up for 2 minute raid buffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
This makes it hard to compare defensive wise to BW or HOC since those short CDs can't mitigate the TB and DOT as well, but also have decent sustain to give healers some leeway. TBN + Oblation also gives more defense compared to the two cooldowns due to the additive defense on top of the shield.
Best way to compare in terms of playstyle: HOC and BW are best used reactively against TBs along with other mits, while TBN is a very proactive CD that really requires some planning on how you want to use it and manipulate whatever procs you get off it. -
09-30-2022, 04:20 PMAbsurdityOne of the things that make Bloodwhetting feel so much weaker is specific to this raid tier and not even due to Bloodwhetting itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
Thrill of Battle doesn't provide any damage mitigation which makes it absolutely terrible for busters, Camouflage on the other hand always provides 10% mitigation on top of having double the duration which most likely covers the entire DoT. -
09-30-2022, 05:16 PMRithy255Thrill acts (somewhat) similar to a barrier (just on a much longer cd then TBN) as it extends your HP and healing yourself for 20%, It's normally something you'd want to pair with general mitigation, I generally don't think it's weak in theory, I don't really play warrior that much so I could be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
Equilibrium while it has no mitigation tied to it is generally pretty good for damage over time effects which again supplements your abilities in general, I'd believe that having a Burst heal and a HOT on 60 seconds while using a mitigation would work well against a lot of the damage over time effects? I could be wrong
Warrior and DRK have very different defensive kits (despite being so similar offensively) as one is focused on Sustain but also decent mitigation, while the other lacks sustain but generally has a boat load of mitigations. Warrior will generally have more value on some fights while drk has more value on others, I think it's likely been a bit drk bias (and gunbreaker) but I don't believe warrior would be "struggling" to tank at least not the worst,
I think the real issue is when you actually compare Paladin to other tanks which is pretty awful at tanking, it's blocks not even working properly for the fight and just lacking mitigations for fights "wowie pld has two party mits!!" considering tanks get generally enough party mitigations to cover the fight (4 between them including reprisal... really glad PLD's wings exist they're pretty!), Then PLD's a messy complicated job with pretty awful Damage, at least warrior functions generally well as a tank. -
10-01-2022, 12:49 AMForteNightshadeTo be fair though, you have to factor in Gunbreaker will always have Brutal Shell going. Bloodwhetting's shield essentially makes that a wash, albeit with less mitigation upfront. Likewise, while BW has a better healing effect, you take more damage upfront due to the 10% difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
Overall, the two are reasonably close to one another though I'd give Corundum the very slight edge myself. Regardless, the bigger take away here is people need to stop overrating Bloodwhetting as this incredibly broken ability. In dungeons, it's absolutely ridiculous. In raids, it's simply on par with the others or slightly behind. -
10-01-2022, 01:13 AMRyuDragnierYou found the reason why it's considered as such. Again, Criterion will determine whether it's still OP or not. If so...expect the healing on BW to be dropped to per use instead of per hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
-
10-01-2022, 01:16 AMRithy255To be fair warrior is a bit overrated. it's pretty balanced well balanced defensively In my opinion, but also pretty strong depending on the fight, the main issue is more or less PLD, I hope the "rework" or adjustments also actually adress to blocking issues (and hopefully more defensively but I doubt it).Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
I don't know if warrior should be above the GNB/Drk (I'll add that yes it should be buffed as all tanks should be at least 1% in each other), again I think generally warrior and drk are very fight dependent as they have more of a niche depending on the fight and Gunbreaker is likely the best all rounder, general strong mitigations and good sustain. -
10-01-2022, 08:41 AMfulminating
Dungeons are largely irrelevant content. The only ones that are tuned relatively well offer incomplete kits and no tomes without roulette bonuses. Nothing but speculation can be said about criterion until they are out, so it can only be judged on savage worth.
-
10-01-2022, 02:18 PMOizen
Seems to me that Abyssos was designed by someone who was very upset with how many fights were absolutely cheesed by WAR's kit in Asphodelos.
-
10-01-2022, 02:38 PMAbsurdityThe problem with Thrill isn't that it provides a 20% HP increase, it's that in this tier specifically it is just flat out worse than flat % mitigation due to how the tank busters work. The more damage you take from the initial hit the higher the resulting DoT damage hits you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rithy255
Thrill is great on big single hit busters because the 20% HP might as well just be 20% mitigation for that single hit, you may not have reduced the damage but you have increased the maximum amount of damage that the buster needs to deal to kill you by 20% and you will be easier to heal up after said hit due to the 20% more healing.
But with the current savage busters the 20% max HP do nothing to reduce the following damage over time that you will take and the benefits will run out before the DoT has finished ticking. -
10-01-2022, 03:12 PMRithy255That makes sense, didn't really think about it like that, I can understand why it would be less useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
-
10-01-2022, 04:02 PMRyuDragnierIt feels almost at Gordias level. A lot of mechanics to learn, and outside of the few cheeses you can do with invulns, there's a lot of things there to basically break the normal mindsets the playerbase goes by.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizen
"I'm just going to eat this AoE to push."
Okay, you'll get a 40% damage down.
"The tanks can mitigate enough to where we don't need to heal them."
That's what you think, that's a HP% based DoT.
"There won't be enough damage for me to have to GCD heal."
We upgraded the damage a ton, you're going to GCD heal.
"The healers don't need me to Feint/Addle the raidwides much."
That raidwide is going to do enough to 1-shot you if you don't mitigate alongside the tanks and healers.
I'll be honest, I hope they keep all the tiers to this difficulty from now on, because it feels like everybody's being pushed to actively help mitigate, healers are being pushed harder than before to heal people up quickly, and tanks are being pushed even harder than before on the mitigation level. It gives me a feeling I haven't had since HW raiding. -
10-01-2022, 07:33 PMfulminating
Absolutely cheesed by any tanks kit.
Eric was a joke with no one’s help
Hippo had some pretty wimpy tank stacks
Orange had Elmo/myta
Hesperos had a skippable demigod double if you brought war and an ignorable heartstake if you brought a true invuln job
Currently invulns are worthless for all but war’s harvest, hp mit is worthless and damage has gone from important to all that matters.
Inb4 “but warrior gets nascent” -
10-02-2022, 05:29 AMArgyle_Darkheart
You use invulns in P8S Phase 2, where Holmgang has a clear advantage.
-
10-03-2022, 10:44 PMOizenNot even about Nascent this time, its Holmgang. As you've said, last tier wasnt that hard so you really didnt NEED things like Nascent.Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
Holmgang's 240s Cooldown was centralized to the entire tier, and WAR would just scream back its health every time.
Erichthonios's tank swaps were basically made optional by Holmgang. Depending on the pattern maybe you'd see a breif swap to the OT, but largely Holmgang was up every buster.
Hippo's Tank stacks could quite literally all be handled by WAR with alternating Holmgang and Kitchen Sinking. Other tanks actually couldn't do this, their invuls just didnt come up in time.
Phoinix ELMO speaks for itself but WAR Could use its Invul earlier in the fight for a tank buster if wanted. It be up again in time.
Hesperos Phase 1 Tank Busters could be effortlessly alternated with Two Holmgangs and your OT's Invul.
Hesperos Phase 2's Tank busters are the same way, allowing your OT's invul to be used to cheese Heartstake.
WAR + Any other Tank can do this. But any combination of Tanks that ISNT WAR has to ususally do at least one of these things properly.
Its also pretty disengenous to say invuls have to place in this tier when they have application to every fight that isn't 8.
Just not to a hilariously cheesy way that the first tier of pandemonium had -
10-04-2022, 08:25 AMfulminating
Scaligmone's bleed is made optional by shielding, it's also not worth the hassle
Forgot about p2 and 4p1.
What do you use them for in p5 or p6?
This seems to be more a 2 minute raid design problem than anything.
Also how do you rationalise the existence of dark mind? -
10-05-2022, 01:21 AMOizenP5, you can use an invul to solo the spawn of the add, allowing the OT to act as a fill if exactly 1 person got clipped from Devour.Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
P6, You can use Invuls on Chelic Synergy to minimize the ammount of bleed your healers have to deal with, if you don't see the value in that I dont know what else to say here.
Invuls aren't worthless this tier, they're just not the insane centralizing force they were in asphodelos.
Dont know what you expect me to say here, the real answer is that DRK has no longer design philosophy and is just a random assortment of buttons that ended up being more than the sum of its parts. Some of it is leftover from the original design intent that DRK was the magic tank, back when PLD wasn't allowed to block magic, Square Enix chose during the mass removal of DRK skills to keep Dark Mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
Dark Knight is the only Tank that doesn't get an early version of its mitigation.
It doesn't get Raw Intuition, Sheltron, or Heart of Stone, or Camoflauge. There is no Proto TBN (anymore anyway, Blood Price was kinda close)
They picked Dark Mind. Its honestly near worthless at the level you get it, and then becomes stupidly good once you get to raid content.
Then for whatever reason, they introduced Oblation which basically has all the same upsides of Dark Mind being short CD raw mit, giving DRK yet another button to press.
So while the rest of the tanks get skills with 50 different "Additional Effect" texts. DRK gets another raw mitigation skill that isn't all that impressive on its own, but can be paired with everything else to get an end result better than those other Tank's Super Mitigation skills. TBN also plays into this a bit, as shield HP pairs really well with mitigations.
An Optimist would say this was SE's intent, for DRK's skills to be a sum larger than its parts. I think its more of an accident that just was an inevitability of DRK getting so many buttons and never giving upgrades to them, rather than new skills. -
10-07-2022, 12:12 PMAbsimiliard
I'd be real careful about reminding them Dark Mind exists if I were you. You never know when you'll log in to find it greyed out and realize it was given to GNB or WAR.
-
10-07-2022, 02:19 PMRyuDragnierJust like what they did to Low Blow, Dark Dance (Anticipation was what it became), and Reprisal...I still haven't forgiven them for gutting us between HW and SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absimiliard
-
10-07-2022, 04:16 PMUndeadfireNot sure what you were expecting, Drk in HW was horribly broken it needed to be nerfed to the ground. War/Pld had nothing in comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuDragnier
-
10-08-2022, 02:51 AMRyuDragnierIt destroyed DRK's entire identity though. 2nd combo was ripped, our DoT was ripped, our mitigations were ripped, we essentially lost our high risk/reward MP management and playstyle...DRK ended up in a worse place, and has only fallen to the bottom of the well. It's been trying to claw its way back ever since.Quote:
Originally Posted by Undeadfire
-
10-08-2022, 03:43 AMUndeadfire
If every job got their pure identities back, we'll likely end up with a meta issue again with some jobs being too crap/broken for current high end content tiers, or Savage/Ultimate becoming too generic and boring. What I mean is, some jobs will not be taken and SE wants to keep the vision every job needs to be clear enabled, it's difficult to do both with such a mass of jobs, either way people are always going to complain. It was a huge issue in HW, Pld vs Drk, and Ast vs Whm.
Sadly we can't have everything, I'm an omni tank so I don't really care which tank is meta I'll main the best ones.
Edit: Don't get me wrong I'll gladly take identities, but this would take insane levels of IQ to give every job one at this point of numbers.