It's time to hire dedicated Tank an Healer devs!

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

The entire game design has to change to get proper healing and tanking jobs here, it's never gonna happen ^^ Might aswell be asking for fps machinist gameplay or sekiro samurai, it's just silly ^_^

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I think the stat squish was probably the best shot they had at retuning things so that healers have a wider envelope to require more healing without just making DPS drop dead the moment casual Timmy blinks.

But yeah, unfortunately you are spot on. The likelihood of that actually happening is slim at best. Bleeeeeh =/

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

As for tanking, you're deluding yourself. It's the easiest role in the game right now. I see this argument a lot from tanks who want to believe they're playing a role that requires a lot skill.

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No role requires a lot of skill, but that doesn't mean they are as good at it as they could be. A DPS could not press some of their cooldowns or do positionals, a tank could not use all of their utility and position the boss poorly and a healer could spam cure. There are a lot of times people clear while playing their roles this way.

Each fight tests different roles a different amount too. Some fights are tank fights and boring for the DPS and some fights are boring for the tanks but a lot for the healers or the DPS.

There are definitely fights where healer is the easiest role because of it being one button compared to what tanks are doing.

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Pointing the boss the right way, pressing a cooldown for tankbusters 3 times in an 8 minute fight, pressing provoke and remembering Reprisal exists are not rocket science when all you're doing is 1-2-3 in the meantime.

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Tank rotations might not be as complicated as DPS, but they are not quite 1-2-3 and have other parts to their rotation like goring blade, atonement, requiescat, continuation, storm's eye, inner release/delirium, MP management and abilities to use off cooldown, which can clash with using mitigation sometimes.

I don't think it's necessary to make tanks tunnel while dragging the boss to a specific square pattern because they are doing some extremely complicated and distracting rotation. I don't think it would make a party happy to be wiping because the tank's rotation is so complicated that they wipe the party because of it.

They dont need to make Healers DPS complicated, just more interesting than spamming 1. AND they dont have to make it a huge DPS increase either.
example:
Stone/Glare has a 35% chance to proc a... (picking a name here) "Water Jet". Water Jet normally does 10 potency less than stone/glare (but has 0.5s less cast time?) but under a proc, does 10 more potency than glare/stone.

This would roughly let healers press another DPS button every 6~ seconds, and for those who dont want to be focused on DPS, this barely effects their total DPS.

in short, all healers should have another GCD they press every 6-10 seconds. and that REALLY is all you need to avoid boredom. (while also making the DPS gains minimal.)

also, regarding tanks, DRK just lacks anything interesting, that u could consider a "fun toy". PLDs cover, and full on invincible can be considered fun. (along with clemency for small man/solo content) i used to enjoy inner release, but WAR at least has a "time your DPS for healing bursts" which isnt so much a toy, but is a mechanic that can be fun. (WAR is 2nd to last in this regard)
GNB has its own invincible, and its near death experience also adds a reason to link it with its own regen/shield. (depending on the scenario. but this also puts it under PLD, as its just a reskinned PLD skill with less focus on "fun") A lot fo fun toys have been removed from the tanks over the years, so pretty much only PLD retained most of its own.

Most DRKs said TBN, but thats just thrill of battle. some said its shorter recast time, but thats not really a "fun toy" so much as u press it 1-2 more times than ToB.
Some say the pet is DRKs fun toy, but imo, theres nothing to do with it, and u cant use it when u want really. its just a DoT.
The only thing DRK has going for it, is its Aethetics. including the "DoT" i mentioned. its just a flashy DoT. (And imo Reaper has even better aesthetics/animations by a butt load)

TBN is a fun toy because it can be used for a lot of situations that other things can't. It can prevent knockbacks by absorbing 100% of the damage, it can save the last remaining healer or RDM that is on 10% health or has lots of vulnerability stacks as an aoe is being cast, it can save you when you are at 5% health, it can save your co-tank who accumulated lots of vulnerability stacks, it can absorb entire tank busters and prevent Doom in DR especially when combined with Shadow Wall. It allowed me to solo Therion (from the last 5.0 dungeon) multiple times on DRK.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

TBN is a fun toy because it can be used for a lot of situations that other things can't. It can prevent knockbacks by absorbing 100% of the damage, it can save the last remaining healer or RDM that is on 10% health or has lots of vulnerability stacks as an aoe is being cast, it can save you when you are at 5% health, it can save your co-tank who accumulated lots of vulnerability stacks, it can absorb entire tank busters and prevent Doom in DR especially when combined with Shadow Wall. It allowed me to solo Therion (from the last 5.0 dungeon) multiple times on DRK.

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Aye it's fun when TBN has it's uses, I used it a lot to cheese raid mechanics like Titan in E4S during Titan-go-rounds in the end I'd Rampart + TBN into LD to eat both the TB and the double stack. You can get creative with TBN but at the end of the day it rarely sees use outside of hard content, which is a shame I've used it many times to save people, myself, co tank etc, but DRK feels really bad when you outgear alot of content for your TBN to just not break and then that feels really bad.

The issue with TBN though has been in it's inception where if it didn't break back in SB it was a huge detriment to you, in SHB it's still a detriment if it doesn't break which sucks as I hate defensives being tacked on to your offense attacks no other tank gets punished for using their signature ability as much as DRK and it seems in EW it's not gonna change. Didn't wanna turn this into a doom and gloom thread because I actually do like ShB DRK or I wouldn't still be playing it but once EW comes out I'll likely switch to WAR because it got so many huge QoLs and buffs (3 Onslaughts, 2 secs on Holmgang, Equilibrium being god tier, Bloodwhetting, Primal Rend, Shake it off buff).

they need to hire a staff for both roles or maybe actually give a proper thought about the jobs and roles cause we exist in the game.

you expect that going into EW your job would actually advance, i mean they said so in their LL that the jobs will go forward from 5.0 design and above( whether we like it or not, that is what was said and promise).

HOWEVER, look at the capstone skills healers get and tell me they actually cared about that role, tell me they actually thought about the healers in development, tell me they actually put the time and effort in developing those skills cause really and i mean it, those skills are the most embarrassing, none thought, not even been developed skills, that are suppose to be the new thrilling skills that will exist for healers going into EW.

when you look at those stuff, i don't think anymore they need to hire a new healer developer, i think they wont hire one cause they simply don't care.

Where has it been said that they don't have enough people to work on them? There are obviously lots of developers and plenty of job openings for this game on their website all the time.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Where has it been said that they don't have enough people to work on them? There are obviously lots of developers and plenty of job openings for this game on their website all the time.

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there is a difference between shortage of people and just not willing to put the effort as seen from EW skills "being developed" for the roles.

those skills that were developed for EW for the healers screams either they did not have time to work on healers or they simply did not put any effort to design EW healers

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Aion's Claric healer was a fricken monster wearing chainmail armor with twelve or more deeps skills! Where is this healers only heal nonsense even coming from? I do not understand.. I have always done damage on healers in every game I play them in even Overwatch.

There is something most satisfying about Lucio booping someone to their demise or unleashing five Zenyatta orbs directly into the cranium of one unsuspecting soul.

Healers are within the "support" tier or considered this in most places even within table top. Support doth not mean "healbot" it means "support" which can be accomplished in many many ways. To give example, if the thing is dead no healing is required and thus you have supported the party.

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What I find even funnier is that this is also a game that never focused on only-healing... And if you see any log for any savage fight you'll also see that the healing is minimal. If you play as a healer, you're aware of this. Heck, if I go with SCH and just leave the fairy there are plenty of dungeons that I almost don't touch healing, and the same with WHM. And I am a casual player, mind you.

To be honest, I don't even remember other games in which healers only heal. Most are either at least a SUPPORT class with a kit built around it. A part of the community and even the devs loves throwing the "healers are made for healing!"... uh yes, the sky is blue. Doesn't really change that healers have plenty of downtime with nothing to do. I don't want to hit like a black mage, I want to have something to do.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Healers not having many DPS abilities is intentional because some healers like to just heal and SE wants to support their freedom to focus on healing. They don't want to pressure them into doing damage when that isn't the role they chose.

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And that's absolutely fine for casual healers. Veteran healers realize that healing is not intensive in this game and you'll easily spend 60% or more (a lot more) of your GCDs casting damage if you are playing halfway decently.

Because every role should be doing SOMETHING beneficial every single GCD they can. For healers, when there's nothing to heal, that means they're either:

1) Mitigating damage
2) Doing damage.

All we are asking for is that damage to be meaningful and fun. Not 2 damage buttons from lvl 4 to lvl 90 like it is currently.

And the solutions aren't entirely complicated. Easy solutions would be:

Scholar: Give back the Quickened Aetherflow trait. This ENCOURAGED them to use their aetherflow stacks.

White Mage: Change the FreeCure trait from Cure1 (it's a trap currently) to their GCD filler spell Stone / Glare.

AST: Give a Slow to Gravity or have Malefic lower the CD of ED by a second or two per cast.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Correction:
Many of the players that choose to weigh in on the forums hate the current set up.
"Most players" are silent on the issue and we cannot speak for them.

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There was a quote somewhere and I'm paraphrasing from memory:

A complaint is an extremely important thing. People who are upset and don't care just walk away angry. If someone is willing to give constructive criticism, it shows they still care about the product.

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

https://youtu.be/8uFvDXs-rLk?t=228
how's that "fool me twice" saying goes again?

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Leveling dungeons have ALWAYS hit harder than the previous expansion's endgame dungeons.

Dusk Vigil, The Vault, Siresong Sea, Bardam's Mettle, Castrum Abania, Holmister Switch all hit like trucks.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Where has it been said that they don't have enough people to work on them? There are obviously lots of developers and plenty of job openings for this game on their website all the time.

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ealer-designer.

I did a pretty deep analysis on this a few years back and as far as I can tell, it still stands true to this day. Kei Sato was promoted to a more senior role and an assistant designer got drafted in behind him.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And that's absolutely fine for casual healers. Veteran healers realize that healing is not intensive in this game and you'll easily spend 60% or more (a lot more) of your GCDs casting damage if you are playing halfway decently.

Because every role should be doing SOMETHING beneficial every single GCD they can. For healers, when there's nothing to heal, that means they're either:

1) Mitigating damage
2) Doing damage.

All we are asking for is that damage to be meaningful and fun. Not 2 damage buttons from lvl 4 to lvl 90 like it is currently.

And the solutions aren't entirely complicated. Easy solutions would be:

Scholar: Give back the Quickened Aetherflow trait. This ENCOURAGED them to use their aetherflow stacks.

White Mage: Change the FreeCure trait from Cure1 (it's a trap currently) to their GCD filler spell Stone / Glare.

AST: Give a Slow to Gravity or have Malefic lower the CD of ED by a second or two per cast.

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AST: Spamming slow will do nothing but make mobs immune in a short time rendering arm's length useless. It sounds like you want ED to be some kind of gauge skill because playing around with recast timers like that is not something they do. This is what they've already done with Sage, where certain actions lead to others. Perhaps after 6.0, they'll start looking in that direction for the other healers.

Maybe we should wait and see how sage plays out as well as all the other healer changes.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

AST: Spamming slow will do nothing but make mobs immune in a short time rendering arm's length useless. It sounds like you want ED to be some kind of gauge skill because playing around with recast timers like that is not something they do. This is what they've already done with Sage, where certain actions lead to others. Perhaps after 6.0, they'll start looking in that direction for the other healers.

Maybe we should wait and see how sage plays out as well as all the other healer changes.

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and then you will have a repeat of the mess that happened in 5.0 for ast and sch

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

There was a quote somewhere and I'm paraphrasing from memory:

A complaint is an extremely important thing. People who are upset and don't care just walk away angry. If someone is willing to give constructive criticism, it shows they still care about the product.

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Here you go, point three from the presentation Yoshi-P himself gave at the 2014 Game Developers Conference 2014:

https://i.imgur.com/PEQBPxh.png

Full slideshow can be found here and the full presentation can be found here.

Yoshi's stance is still pretty much the same. In his interview with Zepla, he emphasized the need for clear communication when asked about what players want / need.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

and then you will have a repeat of the mess that happened in 5.0 for ast and sch

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This really means nothing to me as I started after that. I've played MMOs for many years and the one big problem is communication from the players, not just in saying what they'd like, but listening and understanding what the devs communicate as far as limitations. A lot of what I see in this thread is either vague, in need of polish or just moot because 6.0 is likely to bring about these changes.

Tanking has been going down hill into utter boredom since SB. HW was peak tanking.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

This really means nothing to me as I started after that. I've played MMOs for many years and the one big problem is communication from the players, not just in saying what they'd like, but listening and understanding what the devs communicate as far as limitations. A lot of what I see in this thread is either vague, in need of polish or just moot because 6.0 is likely to bring about these changes.

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So much this. There's a ton of armchair game dev going around when it comes to MMO players, and often the longer the player has played the game the more certain they are they that they know exactly how to fix the problems they perceive, without realizing that the developers have likely already thought of that and have chosen not to implement it for one reason or another (be it cost, resources, technical, staffing, intended impact, lack of player desire, etc.).

The other issue is that most suggestions are made from a personal bubble. There's an immediate assumption that "Well, I want this so..." or "Well, the people I hang around with want this so..." by players who have no access to analytics or even in some cases no interest or care for the wider community. MMOs by their very nature need to service as many people as possible. FF14 has recently passed 24 million accounts and, while it's absolutely true that not all 24 million are current, active players of the game, there are still a ton of people playing the game, and every single one of them would like something a little different even in cases where they do agree on the broad strokes. If the developers don't implement your chosen changes, it may well be that your chosen changes just don't fit into the game they are making because those changes are deemed to be against what works for the larger majority.

I keep seeing this argument that it is problem for few vocal minority or the devs deem it not a big issue buuuuuuuut;

I am just going to leave this here.

https://i.ibb.co/QXv6mrv/wherehaveallthehealersgone.png

I understand wanting tanking and healing to be more interesting...but why more complex?

I think that would be better suited for content, not Jobs.
Give tanks more responsibility, make healing more of an important or urgent matter. Again i can get behind making the jobs more interesting to play, but i think the bigger issue is the battle content

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

<snip>

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Consider it this way:

Let's say 6.0 lands, and Reaper has had a complete rework again for release.

It's now got a single GCD nuke and a GCD instant 30 second dot from the word go, a 2 minute self haste buff at level 30, a 30 second instant oGCD at 56, and finally a big nuke that needs to be charged during downtime at 74.

That's it. That's it's entire kit to grind through solo MSQ content with.

SE would get torn a new hole to breath through if they dropped the class like that. And yet that's precisely what healers have been reduced to in solo content now. Watch a commentary free stream of a healer playing at level 10 or level 80 and the gameplay is far too similar. It truly boggles my mind that people consider this to be acceptable irrespective of what angle you are coming at this game. Giving healers a more compelling gameplay loop in downtime isn't a raider centric thing by any stretch. It's every bit as bad for the newer casual players, it's just that they haven't gotten bored of it yet (and ironically, healing levelling dungeons whilst being under geared is arguably the most enjoyable and challenging healing content pre Extreme and Savage).

It's lazy design from a team that has demonstrated that it is capable of so much more.

As far as the solution goes. Honestly, SE have backed themselves into a monumental corner at this stage and unless they've taken steps to address the potency of our healing kits vs our HP pools with this stat squish, I'm honestly not sure they'll ever dig themselves out of this mess until the inevitable overhaul towards the end of the game's life whenever that may be.

You are correct about the success though, I suspect that SE do indeed see the current overall strategy as being a net gain even if it does equate to having the core gameplay loop treading the same water since 3.4. The influx of new players handily outweighs the burnout of jaded veterans.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

This really means nothing to me as I started after that. I've played MMOs for many years and the one big problem is communication from the players, not just in saying what they'd like, but listening and understanding what the devs communicate as far as limitations. A lot of what I see in this thread is either vague, in need of polish or just moot because 6.0 is likely to bring about these changes.

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If you're a long-time player though, and specially a healer main, you already heard the "just wait for the expac drop" a few times, just to be disappointed over and over again. Then you hear "oh no, just wait for x.1!", after that it's "they'll fix next expac". So please, if you don't follow the discussion of this community over the years, I would get off your high horse. Many people here have their own reason to be a bit over-the-edge regarding healer issues.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I understand wanting tanking and healing to be more interesting...but why more complex?

I think that would be better suited for content, not Jobs.
Give tanks more responsibility, make healing more of an important or urgent matter. Again i can get behind making the jobs more interesting to play, but i think the bigger issue is the battle content

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I also think that changing encounter design would be one way to deal with this - but this would only make these changes impactful on the newest content. What about the rest of the game? Why do I have to press one button forever while doing 60, 70 and 80 content? If you don't touch the job class itself, the people that don't actively prog or try extremes at launch will be left with spamming one button. The casual community isn't made of only people with a total lack of interest in getting better and feeling engaged by the combat of the game. Besides, changing encounter design is way harder than giving healers something to do, specially considering that in 1.x/2.x and even 3.x they had this.

Anyway, this discussion is really old and you had a lot of suggestions all over the place - more dps skills, mobs that hit harder, more "support" skills such as buffs/debuffs... And yet, here we are. Spamming glare.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Some say the pet is DRKs fun toy, but imo, theres nothing to do with it, and u cant use it when u want really. its just a DoT.
The only thing DRK has going for it, is its Aethetics. including the "DoT" i mentioned. its just a flashy DoT. (And imo Reaper has even better aesthetics/animations by a butt load)

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It's not even a proper dot.. if the enemy moves or phase changes (ones where its not immune) the shadow can't deal damage like a normal dot.. making it much worse then a cast on target dot

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

So much this. There's a ton of armchair game dev going around when it comes to MMO players, and often the longer the player has played the game the more certain they are they that they know exactly how to fix the problems they perceive, without realizing that the developers have likely already thought of that and have chosen not to implement it for one reason or another (be it cost, resources, technical, staffing, intended impact, lack of player desire, etc.).

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Exactly and I have watched almost all the interviews yoshi-p did in the media tour and he explained the reasoning including that some healers prefer just to heal and he doesn't want to pressure them, but he also agreed that sage will offer something for healers that want to DPS. More to do on healers would be nice like how astrologian is, but I do find a strange joy in spamming broil.

In the live letter he acknowledged some people want 3.0 class complexity but said they are keeping it in the direction 5.0 went because it has made them playable by a lot more people. When the classes are easier the mechanics can be harder too.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

There was a quote somewhere and I'm paraphrasing from memory:

A complaint is an extremely important thing. People who are upset and don't care just walk away angry. If someone is willing to give constructive criticism, it shows they still care about the product.

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Are you sure you meant to respond to me?
I don't understand how this is a... response(?) to what you quoted.

To chop the convo down to a few sentences, someone said:

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

most players hate the current setup.

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I said

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Originally Posted by ItMe

"Most players" are silent on the issue and we cannot speak for them.

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Yeah, people often complain because they care... but how is that relevant? You offer that like it refutes something.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Exactly and I have watched almost all the interviews yoshi-p did in the media tour and he explained the reasoning including that some healers prefer just to heal and he doesn't want to pressure them, but he also agreed that sage will offer something for healers that want to DPS. More to do on healers would be nice like how astrologian is, but I do find a strange joy in spamming broil.

In the live letter he acknowledged some people want 3.0 class complexity but said they are keeping it in the direction 5.0 went because it has made them playable by a lot more people. When the classes are easier the mechanics can be harder too.

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That's a very fair stance and I'm actually onside with that.

The ideal solution is where the different jobs within the role should be used to offer a choice of truly distinct play styles. The issue with that is that it requires a lot of tuning and testing to get the balance right to avoid a repeat of AST in 3.0 or WHM in 3.4/5. Arguably more time than SE are willing to commit to the role unfortunately

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Originally Posted by Melorie

If you're a long-time player though, and specially a healer main, you already heard the "just wait for the expac drop" a few times, just to be disappointed over and over again. Then you hear "oh no, just wait for x.1!", after that it's "they'll fix next expac". So please, if you don't follow the discussion of this community over the years, I would get off your high horse. Many people here have their own reason to be a bit over-the-edge regarding healer issues.

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How am I the one on a high-horse, when you're the one citing your time playing? You're the one dismissing an opinion. Like I said, I've played these games enough. I've also had a lot of good discussions about development and gained a lot of insight. Just because I wasn't here the whole time doesn't give you the right to act that way. Miss me with that elitist bs.

'm just saying I need more context for your side to make any kind of sense to me or even some of the team.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Yeah, people often complain because they care... but how is that relevant? You offer that like it refutes something.

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When you care, it's more of a constructive feedback that time is put into assembling. These are complaints because people have been around and feel entitled to something.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I understand wanting tanking and healing to be more interesting...but why more complex?

I think that would be better suited for content, not Jobs.
Give tanks more responsibility, make healing more of an important or urgent matter. Again i can get behind making the jobs more interesting to play, but i think the bigger issue is the battle content

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I disagree. I adored HW era tanking, its was both complex and interesting. You had to properly prep tank swaps, juggle your stance and combos while watching your resources and dealing with encounter mechanics. The skill ceiling to it was the by far the most fun it ever was, and ever since each xpac has stripped back more and more layers and it has made the role supremely boring outside of dps optimization.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

When you care, it's more of a constructive feedback that time is put into assembling. These are complaints because people have been around and feel entitled to something.

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Yeah, complaints have value.
But that doesn't mean the conlmplainers can pretend theirs is the voice of the majority. Citing discord groups as one of the primary sources should have been the first red flag that the sample is flawed.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

I understand wanting tanking and healing to be more interesting...but why more complex?

I think that would be better suited for content, not Jobs.
Give tanks more responsibility, make healing more of an important or urgent matter. Again i can get behind making the jobs more interesting to play, but i think the bigger issue is the battle content

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Because adding complexity to content restricts it to that content only and it usually means "add more complexity to Savage and Ultimate".

Problem is that Savage and Ultimate content make up maybe 5% of the game. You will never have complex design in 95% of the game's content, for the same reason that the story mode now has easy and super easy options, which also means you will be bored out of your mind in 95% of the game.

So if I don't want to fall asleep while playing the game it means I have to spam the same 4 (sometimes 5) fights for up to 6 months, that's not a solution.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

How am I the one on a high-horse, when you're the one citing your time playing? You're the one dismissing an opinion. Like I said, I've played these games enough. I've also had a lot of good discussions about development and gained a lot of insight. Just because I wasn't here the whole time doesn't give you the right to act that way. Miss me with that elitist bs.

'm just saying I need more context for your side to make any kind of sense to me or even some of the team.

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I'm not being elitist by any means. You haven't experienced the history of this role so of course you don't understand it. I'm just saying that some people here have their own reasons to feel this way because of how this role has been treated over the years, and acting like they're being entitled just because the dev team has dropped the ball over and over again with the healer role is unfair. You could always go to the healers forum and read the post over the years, the suggestions, the lengthy discussions instead of just telling people to "wait for the expac, stop being entitled, i'm certain they'll fix things, you clearly don't understand the devs".

When you play a class that you love and that over the years have been constantly having their tools being stripped off, without having them replaced by anything at all and that rewards you with spamming one button the better you master it, you might understand how people feel about that, until then I doubt you have the right to call anyone entitled.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Yeah, complaints have value.
But that doesn't mean the conlmplainers can pretend theirs is the voice of the majority. Citing discord groups as one of the primary sources should have been the first red flag that the sample is flawed.

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Over the years, the healer discussion has just grow. If you access the section in the forums, the reddit, the discords... Even in the media tour, there was (finally) questions about it. So yeah, of course some portion of the player base don't really access these places and have nothing to say, just like they had nothing to say at 2.x, 3.x, 4.x and so it goes. Some people aren't really into discussing these things, others don't really care about it deeply (I have a friend that play as healer and agrees with their problems, but he loves the aesthetic and since he doesn't do that much content every day, he never really thinks too much about it), I bet that some wouldn't even care that much if something changed (specially since we're talking about spamming 1 button) and might even notice if they felt something about it at all after this particular change - but regardless of all that, when you're speaking of an MMO it would be hard to gather the true data that these discussions needs. This isn't just for the healer issue, but for all the possible issues the game has and will have.

That doesn't really make the discussion less important, though. That doesn't mean that people saying that this is a serious issue don't have a point just because you don't have 80% of the playerbase talking it in the same place.

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Originally Posted by Melorie

- but regardless of all that, when you're speaking of an MMO it would be hard to gather the true data that these discussions needs. This isn't just for the healer issue, but for all the possible issues the game has and will have.

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Exactly~
That's why I found their comment so egregious and strange.

I’ve been healing since 1.0 times, while I’d appreciate more variety in our DPS kit I’m not sure making encounters require more healing outside of higher end content is the answer. Some people only run with their raid crew and don’t meet the people who struggle to heal even basic dungeons. How do you make content for those players? If they amp things too high less people want to heal and queue times rise.

They already scale up the heal checks as we progress the content, and when they tried making harder dungeons people complained and stopped running expert roulette. It’s a fine balance to keep every tier of player happy.

Also things like stance dancing was a terrible idea, if you had higher ping more often than not it would delay and you’d swap right back to the wrong stance and end up healing for nothing or as a tank miss your mitigation to survive tankbusters. While this was appreciated by high-end raiders it was just a pain to the general population. They had to simplify things to get more people to play, as a result queue times are not as bad as they once were.

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Originally Posted by Melorie

I'm not being elitist by any means. You haven't experienced the history of this role so of course you don't understand it. I'm just saying that some people here have their own reasons to feel this way because of how this role has been treated over the years, and acting like they're being entitled just because the dev team has dropped the ball over and over again with the healer role. You could always go to the healers forum and read the post over the years, the suggestions, the lengthy discussions instead of just telling people to "wait for the expac, stop being entitled, i'm certain they'll fix things, you clearly don't understand the devs".

When you play a class that you love and that over the years have been constantly having their tools being stripped off, without having them replaced by anything at all and that rewards you with spamming one button the better you master it, you might understand how people feel about that, until then I doubt you have the right to call anyone entitled.

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I understand a lot more than you give me credit for, but please carry on, put more words in my mouth and continue to prove my point. You'd rather argue and criticize me than get your issue solved. Please continue on your own, since you seem to have my side of the convo handled as well.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

I keep seeing this argument that it is problem for few vocal minority or the devs deem it not a big issue buuuuuuuut;

I am just going to leave this here.

https://i.ibb.co/QXv6mrv/wherehaveallthehealersgone.png

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Those two roles will always be the roles in need, it doesn't mean anything. You have more people not playing tank/healers because of "anxiety" than not playing them because they are "boring".

Also, "in need" doesn't mean much. I still get almost instant queues as DPS (at worse 5 minutes) for expert roulette. It would NEVER have happened during StB, back then DPS queues were at least 15/20 minutes long. We have more tanks and healers than we had in past expansions.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

I still get almost instant queues as DPS (at worse 5 minutes) for expert roulette. It would NEVER have happened during StB, back then DPS queues were at least 15/20 minutes long. We have more tanks and healers than we had in post expansions.

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This is the bottom line I think most players don’t realize. The devs want short queue times before anything else. If tank or healing jobs are complex to play, it might be fun, but if few people play them then that complexity is undesirable.

This is a big reason games like Guildwars have thrown roles out the window, allowing each job to spec somewhat, but ultimately each job is self reliant. While fun, it feels less like a party based MMO and more like playing 3D street fighter. It works in GW, but with the trinity being so core to FFXIV, the Devs gotta do what they gotta do to keep active numbers up in those two roles.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

This is the bottom line I think most players don’t realize. The devs want short queue times before anything else. If tank or healing jobs are complex to play, it might be fun, but if few people play them then that complexity is undesirable.

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Yeah, but like, between being something complex no one wants to touch and literally using 1 button most of the time, because your encounter design allows it, since you have overpowered healing ogcd healing skills and the lack of need for all of them given that the damage comes in bursts that you can easily recover...... There's a huge gap. There's a concept that is called learning curve, and a class can be easier to start but rewarding to master, which isn't the case WITH HEALERS. You can also have options, like an easy WHM (that being said, again... easy =/= spam 1 button) and a more complex ast, or vice-versa. You don't really need to spread this "easy mode" across all the options or leave it at supposedly just one (sage, which doesn't really look like it is truly escaping from the one button spam hell, but we shall see).

Dancer is a very easy class, but still feels "dynamic" at least when you play it. People are simply asking to stop spamming one button forever the better you get at the class. And you don't even need to be good at it to achieve this stage, the content literally throws you at it because of the way it is designed, and unless you go for the hardcore content (and even there...), you don't really have any options to avoid the spam glare/malefic/broil hell.

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Originally Posted by Wobi

Also things like stance dancing was a terrible idea, if you had higher ping more often than not it would delay and you’d swap right back to the wrong stance and end up healing for nothing or as a tank miss your mitigation to survive tankbusters. While this was appreciated by high-end raiders it was just a pain to the general population. They had to simplify things to get more people to play, as a result queue times are not as bad as they once were.

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CS was really finicky, too. Those old memes about healing in cleric stance weren't just because we were screwing up. You would think it was off but it wasn't. And while we do often have to make up for our parties doing stupid things, CS almost seemed to punish us more than help us, since it had that cooldown before you could swap it off and inevitably someone would take avoidable damage the second you put it on. I was really happy when they changed our damage to MND and got rid of the whole process.

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Originally Posted by MiaShino

Aion's Claric healer was a fricken monster wearing chainmail armor with twelve or more deeps skills! Where is this healers only heal nonsense even coming from? I do not understand.. I have always done damage on healers in every game I play them in even Overwatch.

There is something most satisfying about Lucio booping someone to their demise or unleashing five Zenyatta orbs directly into the cranium of one unsuspecting soul.

Healers are within the "support" tier or considered this in most places even within table top. Support doth not mean "healbot" it means "support" which can be accomplished in many many ways. To give example, if the thing is dead no healing is required and thus you have supported the party.

Aye you did indeed queue as the healer which is your primary function within the group. It is not the only function within the group. If the intention was for healers to only heal then Astro would not have cards and no healer would have percent damage reduction abilities. Can you imagine what might occur if tanks adopted similar mentality? "Welp! My job is to hold aggro so I will only do enough damage to sustain threat, I suppose."

It is not unreasonable to desire complexity beyond push the big heal button after the big damage, and after seeing some of Sage it appears there is some light at end of tunnel. Square must have noticed something or Sage would never have been given a skill that heals through dealing damage. It even gets a fricken engage! That is smexy as all heck!

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Pretty sure most of us healers do get that though. It's pretty intuitive in the game.. like.. you feel just how much down time you get pretty much all throughout, and most will do the thing that makes sense.. everyone is at full health or not in need of immediate attention.. I don't need to heal.. so toss in some damage. This is how most people who aren't maliciously trying to 'not bother to learn their job' will operate.

What I personally tend to take issue with, and it's mostly here on the forum, is the people who want to argue that you should be green DPS first, Healer second. I can't speak for others but that is not what I sign up for when I play WHM. As you say, being healer is my primary function, that means for me that I heal and/or ress first, and when there is down time I will DPS. Does that happen a lot? Yes it does because we get a lot of down time, but in the end I still regard it as part of my job to determine when I need to focus on what.

Having more complex rotations would make tanks and healers incapable of doing their jobs. Even if Yoshi P thought OP's request was a great idea, he wouldn't implement it because it would require rebuilding four expansions worth of content around healers and tanks doing an expanded number of things the game wasn't built for them to do.

All the fights in the game are scripted with timed beats requiring you to use the appropriate healing/mitigating skills at the appropriate times. To whit, you're too busy for much else. Adding complexity would mean needing to change all the current content.

And there's no reason to do that because the game is wildly successful. Most tanks and healers are happy with it.