Fix the Elemental Wheel

Water is a form of cleansing so it effect Cure spell.

Adapt and adjust to it.

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

So what are you saying...? That there's a satisfying sense of structure, consistent with itself and discernible in other manifestations of the world, that somehow explains the rather ambiguous current elemental structure? Are you saying that criticism of the current system is uncalled for?

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Yes, I'm exactly saying that the criticism is uncalled for and baseless. There already is structure to it, and it's not satisfying to the people complaining about it because it doesn't conform to the structure that they've already convinced themselves is the "best" structure. These things are completely arbitrary and subjective, and the Final Fantasy series as a whole doesn't adhere to any specific elemental wheel. It's complaining for the sake of complaining; or more accurately, complaining because this game doesn't directly rip from FFXI.

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By the way, to those that say that Earth, Fire, Air, Water, etc. are not real elements, allow me to respond that--at least at some point of human development--they totally were. Greek philosophers identified the four mentioned above as the building bricks of all matter. They also included a fifth element (in Latin, quinta essentia or quintessence, which the Greeks called Aether, a prophetic forerunner of modern-day consmologists' Dark Matter. More to the point, Aether is a definite reference pointing to the inspiration for SE's elements and the current game's cosmogony.)

If later science found the Classical Elements to be a rather simplistic model, the beauty of this simplicity and structural elegance, guided later scientists and the scientific mind in the search of the fundamental materials of the world. So let's treat the simple elemental scheme with pride, and honor it as a forerunner of the hyper-complex building-block theories in today's Nuclear Physic's and Cosmology.

Many centuries of scientific development later we have compiled a somewhat more complicated elemental table, which is now beyond doubt, thanks to the scientific method and its experimental demonstrations. And yet, the initial, fundamental concept of the "elements" was advanced by the classical philosophers all those centuries ago, in classical antiquity. They, the inventors of our systems of thought, who named these basic substances as Water, Air, Fire, and Earth, would have recognized the patterns in these games. Adding a few more elements to make it more practical for gaming purposes doesn't sound that out of bounds.

R

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The similarities between FFXIV's elements and the elements that the Greeks proposed is superficial at best, and it's a completely irrelevant point because this game is not set in Ancient Greece and is not based on their mythological (and then scientific) writings. The Greeks didn't have an 'elemental wheel', and people didn't possess an inherent 'element', causing them to be weak to another element. The only parallel you can draw between FFXIV's elements and the Greek elements are names and maybe in concept; but all that Greek science and philosophy goes out the window when you throw in your own elements.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Why does this matter?

How can one argue that the rules someone made up for how magic operates in their fictional world are wrong? Just accept it for what it is, a concept made up in someone's imagination, and let it go.

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I'll answer this, Wynn. One can argue because of precedents... Most, if not all, of the most absorbing, mystifying, interesting, and exciting of the imaginary worlds ever created in all disciplines of Arts and Entertainment are those that respond to consistent and elegant inner rules. These worlds include some of the great epic poems, novels, operas, films and games that are the forerunners of the MMOs that we, you and I, choose to play today.

I want this inner logic to be present in this game, not just to bust anybody's genitalia (that includes yours,) but rather to add consistency, interest and depth to a world that I would like to visit often in years to come. It was this inner logic and elegance that attracted us all (those who visited it, that is) to Vana'diel and it was no small part of the appeal that kept us anchored there for so many joyful years. It was a world that made sense and felt real and that captured attention and affection, not just because it was fun, but also because it obeyed its own laws with admirable consistency. This is simply the reason why lore is important.

Or do you think that when Tolkien wrote his Lord of Rings tetralogy, or when Rowling wrote her Harry Potter cycle, or when George Lucas chose his sources of inspiration for his Star Wars saga... do you really think they just wrote what came into their heads without some sense of skeletal order for their universes. It's the consistency and inner logic of these worlds that keeps succeeding generations fascinated with their myths.

So we're just asking for the standards of imaginary worlds to be maintained.

R

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standards of imaginary worlds to be maintained.

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In an Imaginary world... there no "Standard". Because everything is made up ( not real).. Its suppose to be fun and creative . Expand your mind.. and not just seclude yourself to 1 particular thing...

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Originally Posted by Andrien

Water is a form is cleansing so it effect Cure spell.

Adapt and adjust to it.

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I'll wait for an official announcement that this is the case, or for empirical evidence to surface, that cure spells actually respond to an increase of water stats.

However, it seems rather arbitrary to me to make all spells corresponding to other elements destructive (while also being able to say of at least some of them that they possess some positive aspect in their constitution) and yet, single out water to be solely a healing element. If that was part of the reasoning, I find it inconsistent and, as I said, arbitrary.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Yes, I'm exactly saying that the criticism is uncalled for and baseless. There already is structure to it, and it's not satisfying to the people complaining about it because it doesn't conform to the structure that they've already convinced themselves is the "best" structure. These things are completely arbitrary and subjective, and the Final Fantasy series as a whole doesn't adhere to any specific elemental wheel. It's complaining for the sake of complaining; or more accurately, complaining because this game doesn't directly rip from FFXI.

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It seems to me that, either you didn't read what I wrote, or you failed to comprehend it. I am not calling for an elemental wheel... the developers did And not one, but two! So, don't blame me. But if they do, I'd rather see it reflected in the world at large with consistency and logic. Otherwise it feels arbitrary.

Go back, reread my reply to your post and please notice that I'm not calling for FFXI's elemental wheel, or for any wheel at all.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

The similarities between FFXIV's elements and the elements that the Greeks proposed is superficial at best, and it's a completely irrelevant point because this game is not set in Ancient Greece and is not based on their mythological (and then scientific) writings. The Greeks didn't have an 'elemental wheel', and people didn't possess an inherent 'element', causing them to be weak to another element. The only parallel you can draw between FFXIV's elements and the Greek elements are names and maybe in concept; but all that Greek science and philosophy goes out the window when you throw in your own elements.

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Perhaps you failed to notice, Dear Wolfie, that in this respect at least, Greek science had already gone out of the window by the time of the advent of Dalton and modern Atomic Theory.

Other than that, I never said that the Greeks a) had an elemental wheel, b) or that their people possessed an 'inherent element', or weaknesses to some other. I only pointed at the elegant historical sources for the cosmogony in many modern role-playing and adventure video games. By the way, the structure of the four or five elements was not restricted to Greek civilization. Indian, Persian, Chinese, and Japanese classical cultures all had similar systems, arguably descendants of the Greek model. (Or perhaps its forerunners, I'm not sure of the chronology.) Some of these, like some Asian systems, had additional elements and a wheel-like organization of strengths and weaknesses, called, if I recall correctly, the creation and the destruction cycles.

But I'm not arguing that these ancient theories and cycles are what makes the elemental structures in XIV and XI good or bad. I was not addressing the mention of these historical precedents to you. Read my post again.

R

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Originally Posted by Starlord

In an Imaginary world... there no "Standard". Because everything is made up ( not real).. Its suppose to be fun and creative . Expand your mind.. and not just seclude yourself to 1 particular thing...

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There are imaginary worlds, and Imaginary Worlds. We want ours to have consistent lore, and inherent logic. That's all. All the good ones do.

R

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

There are imaginary worlds, and Imaginary Worlds. I want ours to have consistent lore, and inherent logic. That's all. All the good ones do.

R

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Fixed that for ya

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

I'll wait for an official announcement that this is the case, or for empirical evidence to surface, that cure spells actually respond to an increase of water stats.

However, it seems rather arbitrary to me to make all spells corresponding to other elements destructive (while also being able to say of at least some of them that they possess some positive aspect in their constitution) and yet, single out water to be solely a healing element. If that was part of the reasoning, I find it inconsistent and, as I said, arbitrary.

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I saved you the trouble of searching for it.

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Originally Posted by Rukkirii

There aren't any water-based attack spells, but conjurers do control water-based spells. The break down of elements are as follows:
CNJ: Water/Wind/Earth
THM: Fire/Ice/Lightning

Also, there are no paralyze/poison/silence/absorb/slow and there aren't any plans to implement them before the launch of version 2.0. However, as we move forward, if it becomes absolutely necessary to utilize them, we will look into it.

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...982#post453982

I've always seen it myself as Earth > Thunder > Water > Fire > Ice > Wind > Earth.

I don't see thunder doing much to earth. Lightning bolt hits the ground...that's about it. Now put that shock in some water and we're cooking. Haha. Course water puts out the fire. Fire melts the ice. I really can't say so much for ice and wind. Would take a lot of wind to try to melt ice, but really could just help water freeze over faster? And the destruction a tornado can do to earth is quite powerful. :3

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

It seems to me that, either you didn't read what I wrote, or you failed to comprehend it. I am not calling for an elemental wheel... the developers did And not one, but two! So, don't blame me. But if they do, I'd rather see it reflected in the world at large with consistency and logic. Otherwise it feels arbitrary.

Go back, reread my reply to your post and please notice that I'm not calling for FFXI's elemental wheel, or for any wheel at all.

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Should I pull the "you can't read" card too? I will, except I'm not going to be so passive-aggressive about it. I was talking about the people complaining that there are two elemental wheels/triangles now, and that there is no ambiguity. There is structure now.

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Perhaps you failed to notice, Dear Wolfie, that in this respect at least, Greek science had already gone out of the window by the time of the advent of Dalton and modern Atomic Theory.

Other than that, I never said that the Greeks a) had an elemental wheel, b) or that their people possessed an 'inherent element', or weaknesses to some other. I only pointed at the elegant historical sources for the cosmogony in many modern role-playing and adventure video games. By the way, the structure of the four or five elements was not restricted to Greek civilization. Indian, Persian, Chinese, and Japanese classical cultures all had similar systems, arguably descendants of the Greek model. (Or perhaps its forerunners, I'm not sure of the chronology.) Some of these, like some Asian systems, had additional elements and a wheel-like organization of strengths and weaknesses, called, if I recall correctly, the creation and the destruction cycles.

But I'm not arguing that these ancient theories and cycles are what makes the elemental structures in XIV and XI good or bad. I was not addressing the mention of these historical precedents to you. Read my post again.

R

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See, now I get to pull the "you're illiterate" card twice, because I clearly said that whatever it is you were trying to pull with this point is irrelevant. That means you get to drop it and not continue lecturing me in history, because whatever you're trying to say here is at best tangentially important to this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Again this is a Final Fantasy ( a Fictional world) Myself nor anyone else, shouldn't think that everything in real life has to be 100% Real... :/

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All I'm saying is that good fiction tends to have rules as strict as reality's. They might not be as many, but all good writers and creators create consistent worlds with inner logic. Go and revise your favorite imaginary worlds.

That's all I'm saying. Or you think it's just blowing air into a tube what makes bottles?

Anyway, I don't understand why so many people are bothered by this criticism. If you don't see a reason for it, you might very well ignore it. It's rather constructive, and it won't hurt you, or the game.

R

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

All I'm saying is that good fiction tends to have rules as strict as reality's. They might not be as many, but all good writers and creators create consistent worlds with inner logic. Go and revise your favorite imaginary worlds.

That's all I'm saying. Or you think it's just blowing air into a tube what makes bottles?

Anyway, I don't understand why so many people are bothered by this criticism. If you don't see a reason for it, you might very well ignore it. It's rather constructive, and it won't hurt you, or the game.

R

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Good writers use their imagination and put what they want to put in their story. and not what is "realistic". The Goal of the writer is to pull off an Epic story for the readers.. In a fiction story.. things like Elemental Wheels can be Creative in their own way.. like Wind can blow rocks/boulders around.. Because in the story the Imaginary Mind ( the Creator) makes up the world at hand and decides what 1 thing does better than the other, the way he wants to make it. Not make anything like a Realistic story or another person Imagination story.

So in all in all, Let the Creators do their thing. They have a goal and a mindset.. when they are focused on it... No one should distract them to do something else.

It's not hurting me at all because I'm happy the Creator is making something thats on his imagination.. and not because this person or that person says this would work better.. Giving ideas to the Creator is fine.. then he can make it the way he wants it with that idea, just don't go all crazy and be like it HAS to be this way or it will suck.

Anyways, thats all I have to say on this.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Fixed that for ya

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Let's not fool ourselves, Starlord. It's not like you don't have strong opinions about the game, or that you don't express them vehemently. And all kudos to you for that. I will still reserve my right to disagree with you, and that doesn't make me a bad person.

Why would the change of pronoun in that sentence make what I said wrong?

Do you think greater people than us didn't want as individuals what their environments also wanted. Is wanting what you consider to be a decent idea to win over those you perceive as bad ones, in an environment you care about, such a bad thing. I don't feel you think that: Look, you're doing the same.

As a matter of fact, in a few places of this world, we have political systems based around that very concept. It can be messy but it tends to work better than its alternatives. I'm not going to apologize for fighting for what I see fit. I'm intelligent enough to produce good ideas. As I'm sure you are. Let's just have a conversation.

R

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

I'll answer this, Wynn. One can argue because of precedents... Most, if not all, of the most absorbing, mystifying, interesting, and exciting of the imaginary worlds ever created in all disciplines of Arts and Entertainment are those that respond to consistent and elegant inner rules. These worlds include some of the great epic poems, novels, operas, films and games that are the forerunners of the MMOs that we, you and I, choose to play today.

I want this inner logic to be present in this game, not just to bust anybody's genitalia (that includes yours,) but rather to add consistency, interest and depth to a world that I would like to visit often in years to come. It was this inner logic and elegance that attracted us all (those who visited it, that is) to Vana'diel and it was no small part of the appeal that kept us anchored there for so many joyful years. It was a world that made sense and felt real and that captured attention and affection, not just because it was fun, but also because it obeyed its own laws with admirable consistency. This is simply the reason why lore is important.

Or do you think that when Tolkien wrote his Lord of Rings tetralogy, or when Rowling wrote her Harry Potter cycle, or when George Lucas chose his sources of inspiration for his Star Wars saga... do you really think they just wrote what came into their heads without some sense of skeletal order for their universes. It's the consistency and inner logic of these worlds that keeps succeeding generations fascinated with their myths.

So we're just asking for the standards of imaginary worlds to be maintained.

R

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First bolded quote: You can't argue based on precedent because, in a newly imagined fictional fantasy world, there isn't one. If this were another title based in Vana'diel, I'd agree with you. However, it's not.

Second bolded quote: Of course there is a skeletal order to those imagined worlds...their own skeletal order. That's the point. And it didn't just materialize out of thin air or come carbon copied from something that came before. They each sat down for long periods of time writing, collecting ideas, changing ideas, solidifying concepts. All until they came to a firm understanding of their own fictional universes.

As long as the rules are consistent in their own universe, they are true and believable for that universe. The world of Hydaelyn obeys its own laws with regard to magic. It operates just like the wheel says it does. And that's all it needs to do. Our approval need not apply.

Besides, this argument is extremely silly. Are you really saying you can't possibly fathom how an enormous magical gust of wind could smother/disrupt/damage a fire?

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

Let's not fool ourselves, Starlord. It's not like you don't have strong opinions about the game, or that you don't express them vehemently. And all kudos to you for that. I will still reserve my right to disagree with you, and that doesn't make me a bad person.

Why would the change of pronoun in that sentence make what I said wrong?

Do you think greater people than us didn't want as individuals what their environments also wanted. Is wanting what you consider to be a decent idea to win over those you perceive as bad ones, in an environment you care about, such a bad thing. I don't feel you think that: Look, you're doing the same.

As a matter of fact, in a few places of this world, we have political systems based around that very concept. It can be messy but it tends to work better than its alternatives. I'm not going to apologize for fighting for what I see fit. I'm intelligent enough to produce good ideas. As I'm sure you are. Let's just have a conversation.

R

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When making an Opinion, saying "we" isn't the really best word to say on a Forum.. then you get the: "Who's this we, you mean YOU want it to be this way" type phrases. But now your starting to become a Lecturer which I don't want at the present time so have fun doing what you do best! :D

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Originally Posted by Wynn

First bolded quote: You can't argue based on precedent because, in a newly imagined fictional fantasy world, there isn't one. If this were another title based in Vana'diel, I'd agree with you. However, it's not.

Second bolded quote: Of course there is a skeletal order to those imagined worlds...their own skeletal order. That's the point. And it didn't just materialize out of thin air or come carbon copied from something that came before. They each sat down for long periods of time writing, collecting ideas, changing ideas, solidifying concepts. All until they came to a firm understanding of their own fictional universes.

As long as the rules are consistent in their own universe, they are true and believable for that universe. The world of Hydaelyn obeys its own laws with regard to magic. It operates just like the wheel says it does. And that's all it needs to do. Our approval need not apply.

Besides, this argument is extremely silly. Are you really saying you can't possibly fathom how an enormous magical gust of wind could smother/disrupt/damage a fire?

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I agree with this 100%

Thanks for the quote. I had read it once, and I remember I found it as confusing back then as I found it today. I still think the idea of water as exclusive to cure (which I'm not sure is what the quote means) doesn't contribute to the internal logic of the game's mechanics. What about positive aspects in Earth, or Air?

The whole thing seems like an arbitrary, a-posteriori effort to force-streamline a system that wasn't working anymore within their new plan. To me, it smacks of a roughly handled scalpel. As a matter of fact, we know this to be the case. Nobody conceived this foreshortened, truncated structural scheme of the elements as the foundation for anything, or at the beginning of any designing process. It was an inelegant compromise done on-the-run; it sacrificed balance, and as I have said already many times, inner logic.

At the same time, I'll acknowledge it brought a certain equilibrium to the numbers of spells needed, but also a rather unnecessary symmetry to the classes' actions. Evidently the new development team thought this was desirable. Perhaps future announcements will reveal the sense of harmony that removal seemed to push out. I just hope it wasn't a rushed, 11th-hour decision. I never lamented the end of Shell, but I still do not get the camouflaging of Water as something else.

R

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Good writers use their imagination and put what they want to put in their story. and not what is "realistic".

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I didn't use in this instance, nor do I ever use the word 'realistic' as you are using it, in posts in these forums. I dread it, actually.

So in that we agree.

R

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Originally Posted by Starlord

When making an Opinion, saying "we" isn't the really best word to say on a Forum.. then you get the: "Who's this we, you mean YOU want it to be this way" type phrases. But now your starting to become a Lecturer which I don't want at the present time so have fun doing what you do best! :D

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In that "we " I wanted to include those other people, starting with the OP, that had argued for a fix of the limping elemental structure (as we perceive it) both in this thread and elsewhere. I was merely trying to defend our perception... In an earlier post on this thread, I had referred to other players and opinions and I wanted to continue in a pluralistic attitude that didn't do exactly what you're accusing me of doing. Make it about myself.

Anyway, you're right... I'm going to finish my BRD AF questline.

R

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

I didn't use in this instance, nor do I ever use the word 'realistic' as you are using it, in posts in these forums. I dread it, actually.

So in that we agree.

R

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All I'm saying is that good fiction tends to have rules as strict as reality's

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Imagination has no rules nor boundaries, We the people may not write down, what our imaginations are saying.. but we all do have imagination to some degree.

in anyrate I can't wait to die 10000059890850930505 times to Garuda tomorrow!! :P

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Originally Posted by Zyph

Water doesn't cause fire to spread in any way. Fire dies when it's not exposed to oxygen (wind), which is what water does, it smothers it so it can't use the oxygen in the air (wind) as one of it's chemical reagents. Though the same thing can be said of earth, that would also smother fire. But you don't see firefighters spraying sand on housefires. You also don't see them using compressed air.

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Perhaps not, but firefighters sometimes use explosives to put out certain types of fires (i.e. certain chemical fires that would react to water/foam), the shockwave literally removes all the immediate oxygen in the area, (sometimes the fuel as well.) snuffing out the flames.

or to simplify: wind kills fire.

Edit: I forgot to mention this but you don't necessarily need plain oxygen to keep a fire going, the correct term is oxidizing agent. (for example, many chlorates are even more reactive than oxygen and will often ignite on contact with anything combustible, and could be the kind of chemical fire that can't be extingushed by conventional means.)

What you have is a Dual chart (Weak-Partialy Weak) setup, however its incomplete.

The old FFXI chart was easier to work with and easier to understand, i have no idea why they decided to swap it up.

here's FFXI's chart:
http://zam.zamimg.com/images/0/8/081...d9f08d5b15.png

This is what we Have now:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_7aOGPodCoBU/TI...ts%20order.jpg

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Originally Posted by Valmonte

What you have is a Dual chart (Weak-Partialy Weak) setup, however its incomplete.

The original chart was easier to work with and easier to under stand, i have no idea why they decided to swap it up.

here's the original chart:
http://zam.zamimg.com/images/0/8/081...d9f08d5b15.png

This is what we Have now:
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_7aOGPodCoBU/TI...ts%20order.jpg

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Saying the first chart is the original chart is misleading, though I'm sure that was not your intention.

To clarify: The first chart is the elemental relationship wheel from XI. The second chart is the elemental relationship wheel for XIV and is what we have always had for this game.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

You do realize that almost every FF game has had different element rules than the last, right? And that element weakness wasn't determined on an Element > Element basis, but Element > Creature Type basis, right?

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I played ffviii, ffix and ffx, so I am basing my opinion on those 3 games. And from what I remember, they all had the same elemental system.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

It's complaining for the sake of complaining; or more accurately, complaining because this game doesn't directly rip from FFXI.

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No, it's not. It might surprise you, but not everyone has played ffxi. I never touched it. Still, the elemental wheel(s) of ffxiv do not make sense to me, while in the 3 ff games I played, it did.

No, I don't see fire taking damage from wind, there are more chances of water quenching the fire than wind doing so. Else we'd use fans to quench fire, not water.

And even if you pull the "it's magic" card, it's not about realism, it's about intuition. The first thing to come into mind when fighting fire is water, it's elemental opposite being ice. The first thing coming in mind as opposite of earth is air (=wind) not... whatever it is now.

A well designed system is intuitive - you do not have to waste time trying to figure out how the system works, which should be the goal of any software developer.

There is also a piece of lore located in game (can't remember at this time) that states that the 2 elemental triangles are also aligned themselves. One set of 3 is aligned as Astral and the other is Umbral. So even if you spell isn't directly opposed to the element your hitting, at least its effectiveness is increased due to Astral/Umbral properties.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

I played ffviii, ffix and ffx, so I am basing my opinion on those 3 games. And from what I remember, they all had the same elemental system.

No, it's not. It might surprise you, but not everyone has played ffxi. I never touched it. Still, the elemental wheel(s) of ffxiv do not make sense to me, while in the 3 ff games I played, it did.

No, I don't see fire taking damage from wind, there are more chances of water quenching the fire than wind doing so. Else we'd use fans to quench fire, not water.

And even if you pull the "it's magic" card, it's not about realism, it's about intuition. The first thing to come into mind when fighting fire is water, it's elemental opposite being ice. The first thing coming in mind as opposite of earth is air (=wind) not... whatever it is now.

A well designed system is intuitive - you do not have to waste time trying to figure out how the system works, which should be the goal of any software developer.

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Again, its only "intuitive" to you because you've already come with preconceived notions of which element beats which, based on... who knows what. All the FF games you listed had different elemental rules for the most part. None of this is realistic, therefore "intuition" means very little.

In the Pokemon world, water beats both earth and fire; and it's "intuitive" there if you've played those games. Otherwise, it doesn't feel "intuitive", because the concept of an elemental type does not exist outside of the game. The same is true for the FFXI/FFXIV elemental wheel. Fire is extinguished by water, wind and earth; water is buried by earth, boiled by fire, and evaporated by wind; etc. There is no "wheel" of anything in real life.

If you play FFXIV long enough and stop trying to compare it to other games, the two elemental triangles we have now become "intuitive." They have for me, it will happen to you too.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

If you play FFXIV long enough and stop trying to compare it to other games, the two elemental triangles we have now become "intuitive." They have for me, it will happen to you too.

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I can't believe you're still trying to reason with this thread >_> you lost from the moment it was created. The minute the OP laid that post down, he said: "this is what it is and to hell with anything else". More or less your efforts are in vain. You gotta give it to em straight like this:

Two small wheels is no more confusing than one big wheel; if you can't see this you should try pulling your head out of your rear. Period. End of discussion. Its fantasy so there is no "supposed to be this way". Disagree you can stfu cuz its not your world, your lore, or any of that. Think im trolling? Every FF game has had a different elemental wheel. Thats right. And what is this? A different FF game. What does that mean? You're so intelligent, I'm sure you can put your big boy pants on and think it through. I'll give you a hint: It means FFXIV will have a different elemental wheel. Get it? Got it? Good.

On to the next one!

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

I can't believe you're still trying to reason with this thread >_> you lost from the moment it was created. The minute the OP laid that post down, he said: "this is what it is and to hell with anything else". More or less your efforts are in vain. You gotta give it to em straight like this:

Two small wheels is no more confusing than one big wheel; if you can't see this you should try pulling your head out of your rear. Period. End of discussion. Its fantasy so there is no "supposed to be this way". Disagree you can stfu cuz its not your world, your lore, or any of that. Think im trolling? Every FF game has had a different elemental wheel. Thats right. And what is this? A different FF game. What does that mean? You're so intelligent, I'm sure you can put your big boy pants on and think it through. I'll give you a hint: It means FFXIV will have a different elemental wheel. Get it? Got it? Good.

On to the next one!

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It's f**king killing me. This topic feels like the electrolytes sketch from Idiocracy. It's like people don't understand that there's no traditional definition of intuition in play here, there is no standard, the reason and logic behind strengths and weaknesses is highly ambiguous, and that they don't understand their own reasons for wanting this changed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vw2CrY9Igs

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

It's f**king killing me. This topic feels like the electrolytes sketch from Idiocracy. It's like people don't understand that there's no traditional definition of intuition in play here, there is no standard, the reason and logic behind strengths and weaknesses is highly ambiguous, and that they don't understand their own reasons for wanting this changed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vw2CrY9Igs

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It has electrolytes D:<

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Again, its only "intuitive" to you because you've already come with preconceived notions of which element beats which, based on... who knows what.

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Based on the majority of the games out there.
edit: also, this. Water being opposite of Fire makes more sense than Wind anyway.

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All the FF games you listed had different elemental rules for the most part. None of this is realistic, therefore "intuition" means very little.

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They might have had different rules, but base element relationships were never twisted as they are in FFXIV - I'd remember that.
I don't care if it was fire <-> ice | lightning <-> water or fire -> ice -> lightning -> water -> fire
But going wind -> fire is ridiculous. Speaking of realism: why do you think we fear the wind when there are fires around?

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If you play FFXIV long enough and stop trying to compare it to other games, the two elemental triangles we have now become "intuitive." They have for me, it will happen to you too.

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No, it won't. I played this game since alpha and I still have to keep the elemental wheel chart open. They tried to be different for the sake of being different, and you see where it got them. They're fixing the things with 2.0, so they might as well fix this too.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

They're fixing the things with 2.0, so they might as well fix this too.

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Except for the fact that its not broken, so there's nothing to fix. It works as intended.

And every FF game in creation has been different for the sake of being different. Good lord.

Need I remind you of FFX's elemental system??? Please explain how that is any less ridiculous than wind->fire. Please do. You are telling me: "I don't mind if lightning is weak to water, but wind blowing out fire is ludicrous!" Do you hear yourself lol? How is it any less ridiculous? Because it has electrolytes?

If you want to talk realism, any wind will blow out a fire *if* it is strong enough. Tell me if your campfire is still going strong when a tornado rolls through. Seriously. And "wind" is such a vague point anyway. You know what wind is comprised of? Gases. Are all gases kind to fire? No. And then there's heat! You have cold air and warm air. You think a fire is gonna like blizzard? Nope. Its gonna go bye bye. Why? Cuz if you cool off fire faster than it can produce heat, the fire goes away.

Wind -> Fire makes sense under the right conditions. Now please tell me how Water -> Lightning makes sense in all of your infinite wisdom, because you don't seem to mind that.

I thought FFX had the stupid ele wheel Water and lighting beat each other and fire and ice beat each other and dark and holy beat each other that was it. I also remember FF 9 wheel being like FF 11's to some degree but not he same.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Now please tell me how Water -> Lightning makes sense in all of your infinite wisdom, because you don't seem to mind that.

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The receiving end of the spell in all of these games is not another spell, it's a creature aligned to or comprised of the weak element. In Water -> Lightning's case, a creature that produces/is comprised of electricity would be shorted out by water.

You wanna talk ridiculous, Ice and Water are the same thing, one is just colder. I'm assuming the "Ice" element is just a manifestation of cold, though.

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Originally Posted by VanishingSasquatch

There is also a piece of lore located in game (can't remember at this time) that states that the 2 elemental triangles are also aligned themselves. One set of 3 is aligned as Astral and the other is Umbral. So even if you spell isn't directly opposed to the element your hitting, at least its effectiveness is increased due to Astral/Umbral properties.

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Actually this is incorrect all elements are both Astral/Umbral, some just have a greater affinity than others.

here have a look at the calender wheel:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RPGpNo0r_u...veCalendar.png

Notice Both Umbral and Astral Dates/Gods have all the elements.

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Originally Posted by Zyph

The receiving end of the spell in all of these games is not another spell, it's a creature aligned to or comprised of the weak element. In Water -> Lightning's case, a creature that produces/is comprised of electricity would be shorted out by water.

You wanna talk ridiculous, Ice and Water are the same thing, one is just colder. I'm assuming the "Ice" element is just a manifestation of cold, though.

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Thus is the point, they are all ridiculous so what point is there in arguing over them. There is no logical elemental wheel, because an elemental wheel itself is entirely illogical

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Thus is the point, they are all ridiculous so what point is there in arguing over them. There is no logical elemental wheel, because an elemental wheel itself is entirely illogical

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No don't you know it's only logic if it's like FF:XI cause that's the only Ff ever made they skipped 11 and then skipped to 14.

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Originally Posted by Firon

No don't you know it's only logic if it's like FF:XI cause that's the only Ff ever made they skipped 11 and then skipped to 14.

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God damnit!! What is this shit ive been playing on my playstation all my life D:<?! At least now I know I can show that chemistry professor who's boss..

*raises hand*

FFXI or gtfo

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

"I don't mind if lightning is weak to water, but wind blowing out fire is ludicrous!" Do you hear yourself lol?

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I was actually telling you lightning boils water. It looks like I typed Ice -> Fire instead of Fire -> Ice by mistake. Would you now calm down and continue discussing this in a neutral manner? Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Soukyuu

I was actually telling you lightning boils water. It looks like I typed Ice -> Fire instead of Fire -> Ice by mistake. Would you now calm down and continue discussing this in a neutral manner? Thank you.

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It is neutral, and I am quite calm...I was just poking fun at you lol. Also I think you are confused, I was responding to your edit. You said you don't care if its fire<->ice or lightning <-> water. That is FFX's elemental system. I'm asking you to explain how that is any less ludicrous than wind-> fire. Because its not, yet you don't seem to mind it and condemn FFXIV for some perfectly "logical" reason known only to you.

Just say you like the others more and be done with it. Pretending there's logic here is like you running around in a cape and underwear claiming you're superman. Yeah ppl can see where you get the idea, but at the end of the day you're still a half naked guy running around like an idiot. Putting on a cape doesn't make you superman, and pretending to logic doesn't make something logical. Call a spade a spade, and call a preference a preference. We can stop pretending logic exists here now.