"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

I just want to respond to this part specifically without trying to take anything away from the overall point of the post.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Many people say savage is full of toxic people but what they don't realise is normal mode is too. The difference is normal mode has a far lower failure rate and it doesn't require much communication from people. You could be unknowingly playing with someone incredibly toxic but because the content doesn't require too much coordination they may not say a word. So then you have no idea what that person is really like. However in savage good coordination is a requirement, which means people need to communicate. Which of course means those silent toxic players are no longer silent and then you see what they're really like when they have something to say.

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Once again, I'll just say that toxic people not being toxic is irrelevant.

This goes to an increasingly common phenomenon that I've been seeing lately where if someone says something positive about FFXIV's community, someone else eventually seems to want to say that the community is actually filled with toxic people who are just not toxic because of either the lower failure rate and lack of need to communicate or because of fearing enforcement of the rules and the possibility of being banned.

To that, I would say that the reason is irrelevant. If they're not being toxic, then they're not being toxic regardless if their nature is wanting to be toxic deep inside.

Another thing is that people don't seem to realize that passive aggressive behavior, unless very subtly done, is still toxic behavior, and in fact can go against the prohibition on nuisance behavior, specifically on obstruction of play. So that is subject to report as well.

So while the reality is that toxicity (whether direct or via more serious passive aggressive behavior) still appears in this game, it's also true that some of it has been negated either by the lack of difficulty of the main content or by the enforcement of the rules.

Whether that means it has successfully created a better environment would differ from player to player, but certainly it would support people who speak positively about the community.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I just want to respond to this part specifically without trying to take anything away from the overall point of the post.

Once again, I'll just say that toxic people not being toxic is irrelevant.

This goes to an increasingly common phenomenon that I've been seeing lately where if someone says something positive about FFXIV's community, someone else eventually seems to want to say that the community is actually filled with toxic people who are just not toxic because of either the lower failure rate and lack of need to communicate or because of fearing enforcement of the rules and the possibility of being banned.

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I actually think this game's community is great. There are of course some bad eggs but this is impossible to entirely avoid. What I wanted to do is dispel this idea that raiding is where so many of these unpleasant people go to. It's not, there's no special content that has more meanspirited people than others. There are only situations where a person's true nature is easier to see.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Another thing is that people don't seem to realize that passive aggressive behavior, unless very subtly done, is still toxic behavior, and in fact can go against the prohibition on nuisance behavior, specifically on obstruction of play. So that is subject to report as well.

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I completely agree with this. A lot of toxicity is hidden under layers of deception. I personally find the worst people are those who choose to engage in their awful activities through more subtle means. It's more difficult to catch them in the act, but the damage they can do can be very high. Someone who is openly very horrible is easy to spot and therefore easier to avoid.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Whether that means it has successfully created a better environment would differ from player to player, but certainly it would support people who speak positively about the community.

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I have said many times, though not in this thread, that one of the main reasons why WoW's community, especially its high-end pve section, doesn't have a very good reputation is because Blizzard's approach to that game nurtures an environment where many people feel that being elitist is the best path to success. Of course not everyone is like this, and I would go as far as to say the majority aren't, however enough are that the high-end pve community is widely known for not being friendly. Because Blizzard push the raiding scene so much, often at the cost at the state of the rest of the game, they're sending a message that high-end pve is the only content worth doing. And some people process this as "well if you can't do it then you're just a worthless pleb".

SE cater to their multifaceted audience a lot better by pushing the idea that there are many valid avenues of personal progress. Which means players are less likely to look down on those who do not engage in their favoured content because SE very clearly acknowledges the merits of enjoying many different approaches to the game. Raiders and non-raiders do mix in WoW, but no where near the scale as to how they do in FFXIV. The divide between these two groups is a lot smaller in FFXIV because there are other activities they enjoy that they have in common. Which then results in a healthier community overall.

Of course though another thing is how Blizzard and SE handle poor behaviour. It's not a secret that SE are far more strict on what they view to be good behaviour. Furthermore because SE are often unclear as to exactly what poor behaviour is, some people abstain from saying things they would say in other games out of the fear of getting reported. Some may say this is a good thing, but I personally think it's an issue. Sometimes a player is actually doing something wrong. Not everyone who points this out is a bad person, often they're just trying to help the group have an easier time. I don't think it's a good thing for players to not comment on something that could actually help the party out of fear that someone would take it the wrong way and then report them. I am fine with SE being more strict than Blizzard, but I'm not fine with how ambiguous the line between good and bad behaviour is. But this is another topic of conversation that is drawing away from the actual topic of this thread.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

If the high end communities goal was to drive as many people away from savage then they have succeeded without a doubt.

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I doubt that. I still get "bad players" in PF.

half of OP's post is made up nonsense to berate a certain type of """"hardcore"""" players, never in my 6k+ hours I've seen a person yelling at sprout or a non-99% player

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

I don't think it's a heresy to anyone. There's a reason that they've banned some streamers using parsers for calling out other people and being toxic.

Being able to clear dungeons ought to be enough. But this forum already has many people who immediately shoot down ideas because "this might ruin the balance and nobody wants to have someone in their party with slightly less job efficiency". That degree of hyperfocus on efficiency, any everything outside of it being limited to limit jobs, seems obsessive. Every job has always been able to clear all dungeons. And a hyperfocus on efficiency, efficiency, efficiency, at the cost of anything that might bring diversity to play. Seems like an unhealthy fixation. Not to mention people not being accommodating to new players. You don't have to be a sprout to be new. People who rushed through the MSQ are still sprouts in a sense, even if the game doesn't call them sprouts.

There are people out there who will downright tell people that they don't deserve to play Final Fantasy XIV because of a mistake they made. And that's not healthy for any game, let alone a Final Fantasy game.

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So more or less you are saying assholes will be assholes? That has nothing to do with FFXIV in general that is just a product of some people just not being nice.

This may be an RPG but it is an MMO first, which means you are going to run into other people, and people are under no obligation to like one another. Run into an asshole ignore them and move on. Cause end of the day they do not care about your feelings or anything you are going through, so you are wasting your time letting what they say get to you. To them you are irrelevant, and tbh they should also be irrelevant to you.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Never get yelled at or tutted over any kind of parse.

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The funniest thing to me is that I've been parse shamed exactly one time after 5 years of pug raiding, and it wasn't even in a raid setting. I disagreed with someone in the Novice Network and they put my logs on blast, in the novice network.

Most people that complain about constantly running into elitism / toxicity are just emotionally unstable and paranoid about extremely mundane interactions. I've known many people over the years that read negativity into pretty much every interaction and constantly shop for things to be outraged over, assuming the worst and reading completely fictional meaning into peoples words. There's a very high correlation between MMO addiction and anxiety disorders, and I have zero doubt that this issue is heavily related to that relationship.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

But they the community turns around and says things like if you're not longer a sprout, you don't have room to make mistakes

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A little hyperbolic no?

When the mistakes are basic fundamental playing issues, then yes there's a problem.
Having no idea what your skills do, not knowing what AOE colours are bad, not knowing what a stack marker is, having little to no raid awareness at all.
THESE are the mistakes that are less forgiven if you've gotten 71+ levels under your belt.
Things such as not remembering fight specific mechanics or where the command is to use Target Filters or something isn't what people are talking about when they say a non-sprout should know their stuff.

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Having no idea what your skills do, not knowing what AOE colours are bad, not knowing what a stack marker is, having little to no raid awareness at all.
THESE are the mistakes that are less forgiven if you've gotten 71+ levels under your belt.

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Exactly. Even the best players don't know what new mechanics do the first time they happen (though often you can guess.) When people complain it's usually about the old, universal mechanics. Stack markers, not standing in front of giant glowing lasers, etc. If someone is level 80 and still can't manage that, it's on the player, not the game.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Many people say savage is full of toxic people but what they don't realise is normal mode is too. The difference is normal mode has a far lower failure rate and it doesn't require much communication from people. You could be unknowingly playing with someone incredibly toxic but because the content doesn't require too much coordination they may not say a word. So then you have no idea what that person is really like. However in savage good coordination is a requirement, which means people need to communicate. Which of course means those silent toxic players are no longer silent and then you see what they're really like when they have something to say.

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Exactly the same argument elitists in WoW use to defend their elitist attitude when it comes to mythic raiding not only confusing the average casual by making them think mythic is some ultra l33t hard content but pushing people away from said content cuz they love to exxagerate its difficulty so they can tell themselves they did something great while they literally just beat a scripted puppet.

Neither WoW mythic, nor savage nor even ultimates are tuned in such a way that require this extremely good coordination and rotation some elitists tout, it is literally just harder heroic which requires more effort than heroic, that's it, the room for error is still decently big, simply smaller than heroic.

I remember mythic raiders like Preach kept saying how they are such nice people and mythic raiders arent toxic elitists, they are just a bunch of normal people having fun and being friendly, nothing elitists there, then he goes around supporting stuff like "you gotta be trolling to not play X meta", "Why would you ever play the non meta spec of your class, it is expected you switch to your class' meta spec" because the truth is they dont see their elitism because they are surrounded by other tryhard elitists who do exactly what they demand aka metaslaves, simming for the best options, unironically changing builds every boss, most mythic guilds dont really tolerate non elitists non metaslaves which is why Preach lives in his own bubble(The funny thing is when the non metaslave is doing better than than the elitist metaslaves in the real encounter, that is always funny to see and ended up shutting up many of my whiners "omg this person doesnt play meta")

Put Preach, the pretend good guy in a group that doesnt play meta specs and secretly open his mic and let's see what """nice comments""" the fun and friendly person says, his videos with fin where he pugs are already full of such elitist comments and insults towards average players who arent metaslaves and dont do what they demand.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I personally find the worst people are those who choose to engage in their awful activities through more subtle means. It's more difficult to catch them in the act, but the damage they can do can be very high. Someone who is openly very horrible is easy to spot and therefore easier to avoid.

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I find it's usually the opposite. For example, recently, "GCBTW" was mentioned in the forum. Someone who doesn't know what that means wouldn't be affected by someone else typing that in chat.

On the other hand, someone who is being openly horrible would have an immediate and clear effect on the target of the action, so avoidance is usually not an option, while people trying to be subtle more often than not can be ignored for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Neither WoW mythic, nor savage nor even ultimates are tuned in such a way that require this extremely good coordination and rotation some elitists tout, it is literally just harder heroic which requires more effort than heroic, that's it, the room for error is still decently big, simply smaller than heroic.

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Finally someone said it. So for anyone saying savage or ultimate are hard, all I have to say is that you're a bad player. Git gud or uninstall.

If you are talking about that percent of a percent that do the hardest content..well there you go. You should be the best you can be. But praetorium? Get outtta here.

I'm not sure what game you’re honestly playing. I’m super casual and don’t have any heavy endgame/raid experience...but generally speaking my encounters with random players has been nothing but good.

And this includes my watching other players who endured my wife and her abysmal dodging skills. I don’t think she has lived through a single Titan fight since 2.0 game launch.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

If you are talking about that percent of a percent that do the hardest content..well there you go. You should be the best you can be. But praetorium? Get outtta here.

I'm not sure what game you’re honestly playing. I’m super casual and don’t have any heavy endgame/raid experience...but generally speaking my encounters with random players has been nothing but good.

And this includes my watching other players who endured my wife and her abysmal dodging skills. I don’t think she has lived through a single Titan fight since 2.0 game launch.

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I agree.

Doing MSQ stuff using the Duty Finder, I've found players to be more than kind.

I haven't done high end raiding in this game, but I have in other MMO's.

If you're doing them with PUGs, you're doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Lots of moaning ....

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Then dont play the game if you are not willing to learn the class mechanics. In a main line FF game if you don't learn the mechanics of the class/es you are playing you die, the only difference here is that people ill tell you, that you s**k.

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

Then dont play the game if you are not willing to learn the class mechanics. In a main line FF game if you don't learn the mechanics of the class/es you are playing you die, the only difference here is that people ill tell you, that you s**k.

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Reading posts like this, I am starting to realize why some fans of Final Fantasy are against Online games being included in the numbered titles.

Maybe they were onto something when they thought that prestige of being a numbered entry in the Final Fantasy series shouldn't go to an "MMO".

The saddest part of your post is that you fail to realize that you dont have to be hardcore or even meta to be good at this game. As an MMO FF is literally one of the simplest MMOs you can play, just do your rotation and know how to dodge. Even when the game was harder in ARR, there still was never much Nuance. And if you're lvl 80, yes its expected of you to know and understand the game to not waste others time, its rude, its childish.

Because if you want to get into it, yes there is certain amount of casual toxicness in your post, and in FF in general, people who think its ok to not be doing a baisc 1-2-3 combo, or ok to literally not heal, or refuse to use tank mitigation, and thats what they teach you in the beginning of the game while lvling.

Or you bring up parsing, its sad to break it to you, but the FF dev team has literally created encounters where if you don't have a parser, you;re banging your head against the wall for longer then you should,frustratingly so. So don't even try to bring that up if you dont even undertsand what exactly the issue with that situation is, and how its actually bad on SEs part for how they handle that.

YOu also say RPG games shouldnt have hardcore aspects, again sorry to break it to you, the FF series over all is really casual compared to many JRPGs coming out of Japan in the modern day, even games SE themselves made back in its hayday as Square Soft had more hardcore RPGs then FF releaes, and Warcraft, like it or not, is a well known RPG series with a well known competitive scene, WoW the game FF is ironically using a template of (watch the noclip documentary) Is a well known MMORPG, that has more world building, more story beats, and a whole hardcore endgame.

Both single player RPGs and MMORPGs have and can be Both story driven world building masterpieces, and Hardcore time consuming games that require parsing information and things that are meta.

To end off, you are probably one of the most self important, and entitiled person I've seen in FF ina while , if you don't like it, unsub, the game obviously isnt for you. And while yes some people can be toxic, casual or hardcore, its not worth you literally spreading mis-information, or you being so stubborn that you make posts with limited knowledge of the game, 2 entire Genres of games, and that you say something as disrespectful as the dev team can't create a story driven world and a game that people can challenge themselves in.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Reading posts like this, I am starting to realize why some fans of Final Fantasy are against Online games being included in the numbered titles.

Maybe they were onto something when they thought that prestige of being a numbered entry in the Final Fantasy series shouldn't go to an "MMO".

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They're against it because they also probably suck at learning how to do mechanics and probably over lvl each boss fight because of it, and are mad they can't do it in an MMO

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Reading posts like this, I am starting to realize why some fans of Final Fantasy are against Online games being included in the numbered titles.

Maybe they were onto something when they thought that prestige of being a numbered entry in the Final Fantasy series shouldn't go to an "MMO".

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Sounds like elitist gatekeeping to me to be honest, and people who say that tend to also say that every Final Fantasy past their favorite numbered title doesn't deserve the number, typically starting by saying XIII didn't deserve it.

He's not necessarily wrong with what he said but he was harsh about it. In ffxiv, you actually can scrape by without meeting a minimum skill requirement because of your peers, whereas in ffx for example if you can't beat Yunalesca then Billy The'fridge won't bail you out like he can in ffxiv's fight with Susano. You need to muster up your own skills and strats or you'll be hard locked at that bossfight. Like it or not though, being with other people does lay some responsibility that didn't exist before. With that said, the devs have been very good making sure MSQ and any required combat scenarios are relatively easy, so there isn't *much* responsibility if really any at all, chances actually are that Sir William the Electrically Cooled Box can solo challenges for you, to the point it's less energy to just do it than to argue. Stepping into challenge content like extreme or savage though, and definitely responsibility rests on everyone in there.

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Originally Posted by WoW

Finally someone said it. So for anyone saying savage or ultimate are hard, all I have to say is that you're a bad player. Git gud or uninstall.

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Yeah, Its all just a time sink really, learn the mechs by doing the fight over and over again, the hard part is always the time.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Sounds like elitist gatekeeping to me to be honest

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Hard to beat the elitism of "don't play the game, you "s**k"".

And the offline games are very story and exploration focused(well, XIII isn't exploration focused at all). There are entire video series dedicated to how overpowered you can get early in the game. In Final Fantasy VII, it's easy to get to a point where you can blow past even Ruby Weapon without any effort via lucky sevens. And in Final Fantasy VIII, all you need to do is grind cards and AP. The rest of the game practically plays itself if you get the right cards and GF abilities early on.

And in offline Final Fantasy games, there's no one there to tell you that you should stop playing the game because you're not good enough. I can't imagine that Final Fantasy IV would have been so much fun to people saying "git gud" or worse, "you're bad at video games, you should just stop" any time a person lost to the Magus Sisters. But hey, we have "git gud or stop playing video games" right here in our very own thread! It's little wonder to me after reading such, why offline gamers, and offline Final Fantasy fans, have a lack of interest in MMORPGs and don't want to give Final Fantasy XIV a chance, either. It doesn't sound like the amount of effort the average player put into Final Fantasy V is nearly enough for XIV gamers. And XIV fans don't seem interested in that demographic playing, either.

According to Final Fantasy XIV players, the average Final Fantasy offline player would seem to be a "you don't pay my sub toxic casual" who parses badly and didn't read a guide for Chrysalis while enjoying the story. It's hardly any wonder that such fans aren't so interested embracing Final Fantasy Online in kind.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

According to Final Fantasy XIV players, the average Final Fantasy offline player would seem to be a "you don't pay my sub toxic casual" who parses badly and didn't read a guide for Chrysalis while enjoying the story.

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Now this is hyperbolic to an extreme. I am going to need some serious examples of this happening. I've mentioned in another thread that I basically play with a severe disability, and have yet to see any kind of serious toxicity thrown at me during some of my biggest blunders in EX+. Yet you're seeing toxicity in Chrysalis type content? Content that you can roll your face across the keyboard and complete? Even getting Titan in the duty roulette can be completed by two people. It is the rare occasion someone is going to throw around "git guds" in such content.

Perhaps, instead of making big boogeyman threads about the Scary Elitist Players you put your feelers out into the actual community. Enough of this info-loop of "Savage raiders are mean and nasty and ruining the game for me." I can almost guarantee you will not encounter these people if you are playing just for the story and exploration. They are in an entirely different part of the game.

There's a lot to discuss here, but I will probably focus on one thing.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

But they the community turns around and says things like if you're not longer a sprout, you don't have room to make mistakes.

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Yeah, no. I've never seen anyone say this, and I've seen a lot. Everyone makes mistakes no matter how long they have been playing or how skilled they are. Anyone who claims to be so perfect that they never make a single mistake is a liar. At most, I've seen people suggest that a person should know the basics of their job after a certain amount of time, and that I can absolutely agree with. The thing is though, that certain amount of time isn't the same for every person, and I understand that completely. I try not to judge too harshly no matter who's doing what, even if my patience is wearing thin.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Hard to beat the elitism of "don't play the game, you "s**k"".

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Show me it.

Actually show me it.

I'm on your dang data center and quite literally get the same players as you. Show. Me. It.

Oh wait, how strange, you can't. Because the community, in honestly, is the opposite (Casual elitism). I've seen so many times someone is defended on the stupidest things, such as literally afking group content in the current patch, because it's not savage.

Yet not once have I, in 6 years, seen anyone say don't play the game.

This is such a low IQ post it's unbelievable it has gartered this much attention.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Show me it.

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They're probably referring to posts like these:

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Originally Posted by WoW

Finally someone said it. So for anyone saying savage or ultimate are hard, all I have to say is that you're a bad player. Git gud or uninstall.

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Originally Posted by SavishSalacious

Then dont play the game if you are not willing to learn the class mechanics. In a main line FF game if you don't learn the mechanics of the class/es you are playing you die, the only difference here is that people ill tell you, that you s**k.

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Originally Posted by linayar

They're probably referring to posts like these:

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The first is from a common troll, the second only says that if you're completely unwilling to play, then why are you playing.

Sure, you can argue the second one, but it's not "You suck, don't play," It's "if you quite literally aren't going to do anything, why are you even here instead of doing something probably more fun for you?"

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

The first is from a common troll,

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Uh, I'll take your word for it. Nevertheless, these responses exist.

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the second only says that if you're completely unwilling to play, then why are you playing.

Sure, you can argue the second one, but it's not "You suck, don't play," It's "if you quite literally aren't going to do anything, why are you even here instead of doing something probably more fun for you?"

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The problem is that it's responding to the first post, and I don't get an "if you aren't going to do anything" or a "not willing to learn class mechanic" mindset from that first post.

To an extent, in a multiplayer cooperative game, there is a level of responsibility to be cooperative with your team.

In a solo game it doesn't matter, since at the end of the day, you're okay with what you're doing. But if you're doing, I don't know, some stupid "challenge" run in XIV by going Marauder past level 50 the ire you get is earned since you're just wasting other people's time and forcing the gameplay decision on them.

There's very few situations where I'll care enough to say something in chat, and usually then it'll be to give a pointer of "this is where you unlock your job, to receive your jobstone, so you can gain access to the expected toolkit of your role."

The most I tend to suggest is "you should rotate your cooldowns here, instead of blowing them all at once" or "we should be doing AoE attacks on this pull".

At least for stuff below the Extreme difficulty. Mostly since it's very difficult to actually lose in anything below Ex.

That said, I also wouldn't suggest a MMORPG to someone who prefers single player RPG games. Especially when XIV's story content has the minimum amount of gameplay in it to pass as a videogame in the first place. I'd prolly tell someone interested in only the story to just watch it via youtube or something.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

That said, I also wouldn't suggest a MMORPG to someone who prefers single player RPG games. Especially when XIV's story content has the minimum amount of gameplay in it to pass as a videogame in the first place. I'd prolly tell someone interested in only the story to just watch it via youtube or something.

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I actually feel that "minimum" amount of gameplay is what makes me enjoy FFXIV's story more. It's how I was able to get through ARR the first time around without any complaint. Plus, there's no substitute for watching your own created character.

Watching a youtube video for the entire long story would be boring in my opinion. I only do it for single player games that are done after a few hours.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

That said, I also wouldn't suggest a MMORPG to someone who prefers single player RPG games. Especially when XIV's story content has the minimum amount of gameplay in it to pass as a videogame in the first place. I'd prolly tell someone interested in only the story to just watch it via youtube or something.

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I prefer single player rpgs and I adore this game. However I understand that when I play a mmorpg I'm not going to get the same experience as I do with a single player game. Even when I first played WoW, my first mmo, I didn't imagine it was going to be like a single player rpg. Knowing it's a multiplayer game was enough for me to understand it's going to be quite different.

And no FFXIV isn't the first FF game I played. Far from it. FFVII on the PSX was the first one I played which shows how long I have been playing this series and enjoying those sort of games did not negatively affect my enjoyment of any mmo. But I suppose it's because I don't go to multiplayer games expecting a single player experience.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Hard to beat the elitism of "don't play the game, you "s**k"".

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In my opinion, we found a winner then. "This Final Fantasy game doesn't stand to my standards for Final Fantasy, ergo it doesn't deserve to be a numbered title" is, I feel, a bit more elitist than that because it's a sweeping condemnation, intended or not, against people who like those games. "You may like Final Fantasy, but you like the fake Final Fantasy."

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It doesn't sound like the amount of effort the average player put into Final Fantasy V is nearly enough for XIV gamers. And XIV fans don't seem interested in that demographic playing, either. According to Final Fantasy XIV players, the average Final Fantasy offline player would seem to be a "you don't pay my sub toxic casual" who parses badly and didn't read a guide for Chrysalis while enjoying the story. It's hardly any wonder that such fans aren't so interested embracing Final Fantasy Online in kind.

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My problem is, you've decided your conclusion (FFXIV players are toxic) and are working your way back from there. That's how bigotry forms, not educated opinions. You're free to dislike FFXIV, you're free to dislike the community, you're free to dislike every online community ever. What I don't like is seeing someone sling mud while they themselves are coated in dirt: "I'm starting to see why some think the online Final Fantasy games aren't worth being numbered titles" is probably the most elitist thing I've seen written all thread. Immediately, you created two groups, the "offline final fantasy players" and the "online final fantasy players," disregarding people who play both of course, and you set one as being more righteous (as in, able to decide what counts as 'real final fantasy') and one as toxic (those toxic online final fantasy players never appreciate what other people do!). Wanna know why this is more toxic than elite vs casual?

Because in one fell swoop, you created a scenario where anybody who disagrees with you is in the "other" group, the toxic online final fantasy player group, and because they're in the "other" group that you've predefined, and their opinions will be weighted in light of that.

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Splitting in two because the above was my main point, the rest is tangential but worth responding to.

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And the offline games are very story and exploration focused(well, XIII isn't exploration focused at all). There are entire video series dedicated to how overpowered you can get early in the game.

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So there are guide videos that you watch, that teach you the game's mechanics beyond what the game does, and following the methods shown helps one to more smoothly facilitate their experience in the game?

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In Final Fantasy VII, it's easy to get to a point where you can blow past even Ruby Weapon without any effort via lucky sevens. And in Final Fantasy VIII, all you need to do is grind cards and AP. The rest of the game practically plays itself if you get the right cards and GF abilities early on.

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So there are multiple strats for how to handle a boss that are well-documented and, through community memetic transfer, have become commonplace? I'll spell my gist out here: I'm not seeing anything that FFXIV guide videos wouldn't likewise be considered as. Knowing Lucky Sevens and exploiting it is metagame knowledge that the game itself doesn't teach you, and if you did intuit it and figure out to use it on Ruby Weapon then congratulations on that. Knowing optimal grinding methods (and, of course, in FF8 specifically, how grinding levels straight can actually make things harder for you because of enemy scaling) are pretty external. "If you get the right cards and GF abilities early on" is the key phrase here.

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And in offline Final Fantasy games, there's no one there to tell you that you should stop playing the game because you're not good enough.

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Nope, and likewise, there's nobody there who will pull you through a difficult boss fight unless you go out on your own to learn the strategies for progression in the game or the exploits in the game mechanics themselves. The onus falls solely on you whether you beat your head against a bossfight till it budges, research strategies to beat it, or powergrind past it.

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But hey, we have "git gud or stop playing video games" right here in our very own thread!

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Yeah, we do indeed have trolls. And if they actually believe that, then whatever, let them be off in their own world. We've seen how MMORPGs for the hardcore, like Darkfall or Mortal Online, have shriveled up and died. Given that this game is not a sandbox full-loot PVP MMO, and instead caters more to the casual audience, you should have no trouble avoiding people like them and building your own friend circle to run content with in FFXIV.

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It's little wonder to me after reading such, why offline gamers, and offline Final Fantasy fans, have a lack of interest in MMORPGs and don't want to give Final Fantasy XIV a chance, either.

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This seems silly. It's like saying "It's little wonder why Kingdom Hearts 2 players don't like Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories. Those Chain of Memories players are elitists!" No, it's more likely because it's an entirely different kind of game. That doesn't make Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories somehow lesser than KH2, but they are different games and thus target different audiences. Or, I guess more in line with the MMO genre as a whole, of course World of Warcraft didn't capture every Warcraft 3 player's heart, because World of Warcraft is a different genre of game altogether.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Show me it.

Actually show me it.

I'm on your dang data center and quite literally get the same players as you. Show. Me. It.

Oh wait, how strange, you can't. Because the community, in honestly, is the opposite (Casual elitism). I've seen so many times someone is defended on the stupidest things, such as literally afking group content in the current patch, because it's not savage.

Yet not once have I, in 6 years, seen anyone say don't play the game.

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Here on Primal I've definitely seen that before. I guess on Crystal players are just really nice then? :D

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

Hard to beat the elitism of "don't play the game, you "s**k""..........etc

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Ok so you got burned in a Chrysalis run, not even trying to sound mean, get over it, it happpened, thats literally life more then FF, you get in booty situations sometimes and it sucks, BUT, its usually a one time occurence. If you were the problem, dont be the problem next time, thats all anyone playing FF general asks in all forms of content.

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

They're against it because they also probably suck at learning how to do mechanics and probably over lvl each boss fight because of it, and are mad they can't do it in an MMO .

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Yeah I said they suck, because of my earlier point, FF is a very, and I mean Veeeeeeery casual JRPG franchise in comparison to many other JRPGs, when you compare length, when you compare game mechanics, when you compare, how much you have to put in for you to get through the game, FF games, are not that hard. My statement may be harsh, but its ultimately true, I've been playing FF games all my life, and sorry to break your heart, single player FF aint that hard.

And yes don;t play the game, you obviously hate it so much, just drop it and get a refund or something, take the L and move on. No sense in staying if its sooooooooo bad right?

"And these are two statements that absolutely cannot coexist. "
They can and they do.
Different people can have opposing viewpoints. Crazy idea that.

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

Ok so you got burned in a Chrysalis run, not even trying to sound mean, get over it, it happpened, thats literally life more then FF, you get in booty situations sometimes and it sucks, BUT, its usually a one time occurence. If you were the problem, dont be the problem next time, thats all anyone playing FF general asks in all forms of content.



Yeah I said they suck, because of my earlier point, FF is a very, and I mean Veeeeeeery casual JRPG franchise in comparison to many other JRPGs, when you compare length, when you compare game mechanics, when you compare, how much you have to put in for you to get through the game, FF games, are not that hard. My statement may be harsh, but its ultimately true, I've been playing FF games all my life, and sorry to break your heart, single player FF aint that hard.

And yes don;t play the game, you obviously hate it so much, just drop it and get a refund or something, take the L and move on. No sense in staying if its sooooooooo bad right?

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If your goal is to have me consider your opinions, you're not doing a very good job of that right now.

Your making a whole lot of assumptions, and incorrect ones, at that, about me and my opinions. And being needlessly hostile in a way that makes me much less receptive to what you have to say.
If anything, I feel a lot more emboldened and entrenched in my opinions right now, after reading your post.

If anything, it feels like you're proving my point. You're assuming I had a bad experience, and then proceeding to belittle me and said experience that you've assumed.
You're assuming that I don't claim that offline Final Fantasy games are easy. They are easy, and I don't think that's a bad thing. They're story first games. So you're supporting the point I'm trying to make by saying that.
Not sure why you would assume that hearing Final Fantasy is an easy video game series, a point I've been trying to make myself, would "break my heart". But I guess you were hoping to sound insulting and rude as you could manage. I expected as much when I challenged metagaming.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Here on Primal I've definitely seen that before. I guess on Crystal players are just really nice then? :D

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Nah, there's just as much snide passive aggressiveness on Crystal as anywhere else. I've seen people non ironically whining about people dying in MSQ roulette and several similar incidents in Chrysalis. Essentially those folks are tryhards or have enough self-esteem issues that they need to put others down. Pity them if you will but they're not worth spending much emotion on.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

If your goal is to have me consider your opinions, you're not doing a very good job of that right now.

Your making a whole lot of assumptions, and incorrect ones, at that, about me and my opinions. And being needlessly hostile in a way that makes me much less receptive to what you have to say.
If anything, I feel a lot more emboldened and entrenched in my opinions right now, after reading your post.

If anything, it feels like you're proving my point. You're assuming I had a bad experience, and then proceeding to belittle me and said experience that you've assumed.
You're assuming that I don't claim that offline Final Fantasy games are easy. They are easy, and I don't think that's a bad thing. They're story first games. So you're supporting the point I'm trying to make by saying that.
Not sure why you would assume that hearing Final Fantasy is an easy video game series, a point I've been trying to make myself, would "break my heart". But I guess you were hoping to sound insulting and rude as you could manage. I expected as much when I challenged metagaming.

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YOu've truly missed the point then, ah well

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

YOu've truly missed the point then, ah well

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I don't think they came here to listen to anyone's points. They came here to rant about some massive problem that for some reason only they are experiencing extremely often.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

In my opinion, we found a winner then. "This Final Fantasy game doesn't stand to my standards for Final Fantasy, ergo it doesn't deserve to be a numbered title" is, I feel, a bit more elitist than that because it's a sweeping condemnation, intended or not, against people who like those games. "You may like Final Fantasy, but you like the fake Final Fantasy."

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I really don't agree with that claim. The idea that Final Fantasy Online shouldn't count as Final Fantasy. I see is fairly often, particularly from people who don't like Online gaming or want to give Final Fantasy XIV a chance. What I find is that such people have a per-conceived notion of what an MMORPG is, and that it's different in a bad or unappealing way from a JRPG. And while I, and many other people have tried to dispel such ideas. The more I have started to realize that I may have been misguided, and that MMORPGs simply aren't for everyone. Final Fantasy fans especially. The community itself, the MMORPG community, does little to dispel the negative notions that offline RPG fans have about online RPGs.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

My problem is, you've decided your conclusion (FFXIV players are toxic) and are working your way back from there. That's how bigotry forms, not educated opinions.

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I don't have the conclusion that Final Fantasy XIV players are toxic. My opinion is more along the lines that themepark MMORPGs have pushed MMORPGs into a very narrow field of what an online RPG can or should be. And that the community, not the XIV community, but the MMORPG community as a whole, is pushing towards a direction of pushing and pressuring everyone into a metagame and style of play, that for many people, takes all of the fun out of playing a video game. Speedrunning and metagaming is a very specific gameplay style.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

You're free to dislike FFXIV, you're free to dislike the community, you're free to dislike every online community ever. What I don't like is seeing someone sling mud while they themselves are coated in dirt: "I'm starting to see why some think the online Final Fantasy games aren't worth being numbered titles" is probably the most elitist thing I've seen written all thread. Immediately, you created two groups, the "offline final fantasy players" and the "online final fantasy players," disregarding people who play both of course, and you set one as being more righteous (as in, able to decide what counts as 'real final fantasy') and one as toxic (those toxic online final fantasy players never appreciate what other people do!). Wanna know why this is more toxic than elite vs casual?

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Of course there are people who play both. I played Final Fantasy XI in grade school to a fixated degree where it negatively impacted my grades. I was hyperfixated on XI and Vana'diel. And also fell in love with XIV since 1.0. I had a lot of fun in 1.0, despite most people saying it was bad.

But there are also many offline Final Fantasy players who don't like the online games. For the longest time, I also wrote it off as elitism. I don't like the fact that some of my favourite Final Fantasy games are written off by the wider community. But I'm starting to slowly look at it from their perspective, and realize that they may have good reasons for not liking or wanting to have anything to do with MMORPGs. There are some pretty big downsides to this genre.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Because in one fell swoop, you created a scenario where anybody who disagrees with you is in the "other" group, the toxic online final fantasy player group, and because they're in the "other" group that you've predefined, and their opinions will be weighted in light of that.

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I don't remember saying any of this.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

So there are guide videos that you watch, that teach you the game's mechanics beyond what the game does, and following the methods shown helps one to more smoothly facilitate their experience in the game?



So there are multiple strats for how to handle a boss that are well-documented and, through community memetic transfer, have become commonplace? I'll spell my gist out here: I'm not seeing anything that FFXIV guide videos wouldn't likewise be considered as. Knowing Lucky Sevens and exploiting it is metagame knowledge that the game itself doesn't teach you, and if you did intuit it and figure out to use it on Ruby Weapon then congratulations on that. Knowing optimal grinding methods (and, of course, in FF8 specifically, how grinding levels straight can actually make things harder for you because of enemy scaling) are pretty external. "If you get the right cards and GF abilities early on" is the key phrase here.

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This is a very different scenario. Because these aren't video guides, so much as "what if" scenarios. A niche style of play for people who want to spend the time grinding. Like the person who got to level 99 without leaving Midgar. It's not a guide, typically. It's just "oh neat, this is possible, and I actually did all this grinding to show what can be done". And the bigger difference is, you're not expected to watch a guide to enjoy Final Fantasy, offline, at least. People are expected to have their own playstyle, like most video games. Not knowing and discovering through playing and making mistakes is considered the default, as is traditional in video games. Failure is actually a good thing, not knowing is a good thing. Offline Final Fantasy games have a part of what makes video games magical, discovery through play. Not having to have a guide. Not being expected to read a guide before playing.

Metagaming, speedrunning, is all just bonus content. You're not considered a "toxic casual" if you don't metagame Final Fantasy VIII and keep yourself at the lowest level possible while maximizing your strength via cards, GFs, Devour, ect. In MMORPGs, many expect a player to have read a guide before going to a dungeon, even if watching said guide is a spoiler.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Yeah, we do indeed have trolls. And if they actually believe that, then whatever, let them be off in their own world. We've seen how MMORPGs for the hardcore, like Darkfall or Mortal Online, have shriveled up and died. Given that this game is not a sandbox full-loot PVP MMO, and instead caters more to the casual audience, you should have no trouble avoiding people like them and building your own friend circle to run content with in FFXIV.

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Hardcore seems like such a strange term, I'm not sure what it means any more. It seems so contextual. In an MMORPG sense, most people tend to use the word for things like super challenging combat with complex things to memorize. The sort of gamer who thinks that Fishing isn't hardcore seems to decide what hardcore is. But if anything, I would think that sandbox by that definition is less hardcore than themepark, considering that the whole "memorize a dungeon/raid perfectly, along with the dps checks and ect." is more of a instanced dungeon sort of formula of game design. Sandbox is a much more personal and creative, self-directed style of play. While EVE Online is no Animal Crossing, the memorization, and complicated massive space battles and other things still don't seem to fit into what MMORPG players call "hardcore". Which is usually high tier instanced dungeons.

Someone could get no sleep and spend all day in Diadem with the Ishgard Restoration to get 1st place. But from what I come across, most people consider that sort of thing, "side content" and not important core gameplay.
Personally, I strongly prefer that sort of gameplay. But I can tell that many other players think of it as a silly time-waster because it's not an instanced dungeon. I like my silly time wasters. I'm an Animal Crossing casual, with thousands of hours in Animal Crossing games. Or am I hardcore because of the time I've spent? I really don't know anymore. What is "hardcore"? Usually when I see MMORPG players talk about hardcore, they mean difficult raids.

Where does Black Desert fall on the Casual/Hardcore spectrum?

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

This seems silly. It's like saying "It's little wonder why Kingdom Hearts 2 players don't like Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories. Those Chain of Memories players are elitists!" No, it's more likely because it's an entirely different kind of game. That doesn't make Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories somehow lesser than KH2, but they are different games and thus target different audiences. Or, I guess more in line with the MMO genre as a whole, of course World of Warcraft didn't capture every Warcraft 3 player's heart, because World of Warcraft is a different genre of game altogether.

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I think it's a very different scenario and a not quite apt comparison. No Kingdom Hearts game has a crowd of people who complain that others who aren't great at the game are "casual elitists".

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I don't think they came here to listen to anyone's points. They came here to rant about some massive problem that for some reason only they are experiencing extremely often.

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I feel bad for them at this point, I feel like their wasting their money on a game they're obviously not enjoying, but its not my wallet in the end.