The trust system is great, I hope it gets expanded

If this happened I would quit before Endwalker.

XIV as a solo experience alone really doesn't compare to a solo RPG. Most of the time it's very passive. While I have a lot of peeves about that, it's been that way so that most of your struggles come from coordinating, and MSQ duties are designed particularly easy to minimize headache for people who just want to progress in it.
Have NPCs that do mechanics perfectly fighting with you and 90% of the challenge is gone.

Might as well ask for an auto-clear button in the duty finder that instantly gives you timed rewards.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

Have NPCs that do mechanics perfectly fighting with you and 90% of the challenge is gone.

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So you are saying what makes an encounter ‘challenging’ is things that are completely out of your control aka other people making mistakes, an interesting take I guess. It isn’t completely wrong since people making mistakes does make the encounter harder. Though if that is truly your problem it can easily be fixed by making npcs randomly do mistakes.

The thing is it completely forgets about the fact that individual performance is what leads to clears, if everyone performs well individually by doing mechanics and doing decent dps does that mean that 90% of the challenge is gone?

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

If 7 humans can hold your hand to clear, why do you need 7 bots to do the same thing? You scared of getting called out as a leech by those human players?

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I love that you keep repeating that 7 npcs doing the bare minimum is ‘holding your hand’ while 7 other players which often includes overperformers is magically different and harder thus some form of ‘achievement’ above the one with 7 npcs doing the bare minimum.


It is as if you still don’t want to admit that your perceived elitist superiority exists on hollow ground because of the fear that a casual solo player can beat your ‘elite’ content, maybe it is not as elite as you might have told yourself xD

Reminds me of some tryhard WoW mythic raiders who have trouble doing solo Torghast, the delusion that they are elite for doing high end group content really has gotten over some people’s heads even when they really are not that great

I wouldn't mind seeing trusts added to old 8 person content that you can unsync; do it with trusts synced where they handle most mechanics or a group of players that will overpower most mechanics. I don't see the harm in that option and it might help people learn some of the mechanics which definitely won't happen unsynced for most old stuff. I also think trusts should work in all DUNGEONS going forward but current raids and trials should remain player only.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

It is as if you still don’t want to admit that your perceived elitist superiority exists on hollow ground because of the fear that a casual solo player can beat your ‘elite’ content, maybe it is not as elite as you might have told yourself xD[/B]

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You spend so much time talking about WoW and these handicap features that you need instead of actually clearing the content.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

You spend so much time talking about WoW and these handicap features that you need instead of actually clearing the content.

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And as usual the typical elitist generalization that all casuals/solo players must be terribad, incompetent, lazy, cant improve, need handholding, handicap features for even suggesting accessibility and specifically let me check, a mode where individual performance combined with perfect mechanics and above average dps performance would be needed which is technically higher than what player grouped content requires.(Though tryhards do love to inflate said requirements)

But hey, not surprising as this is what happens to a person when they choose to base their entire self worth on a VIDEO GAME and thus also try to exaggerate said videogame achievements by pushing others down.

Sadly for you, some of us are not so short sighted to only care about what directly affects us, injustice, delusions, elitism and many more things that are bad are things that I will always oppose.

You do know that mechanics perfectly executed means that the DPS check will be met by anyone who knows the basics of their job, right? You know DPS checks fail because of damage down debuffs and multiple death, right? And they happen quite often when you have 8 human players, unlike with an AI specifically programmed to execute mechanics.

Of course you don't, because you have never raided in XIV

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

You do know that mechanics perfectly executed means that the DPS check will be met by anyone who knows the basics of their job, right? You know DPS checks fail because of damage down debuffs and multiple death, right?

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Hence why I have stated multiple times in discussions about dps checks that what is making groups fail is mechanic failures rather than "lack of dps" as many people often will jump to blame which is yet another reason why dps meters are thankfully not fully "allowed" in this game.

Again though you have failed to point out how OTHER PEOPLE'S failures which you have no control over have anything to do with YOUR INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE, which is what you are in control of and is what matters if you want to tell yourself you beat X content.

If you want to argue that the challenge of a fight comes from something you have no control over though be my guest xD

Hooo dear~ here we go again. :rolleyes:
https://i.gyazo.com/8b79664f2490d0f8...ba8bad3032.png

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Hence why I have stated multiple times in discussions about dps checks that what is making groups fail is mechanic failures rather than "lack of dps" as many people often will jump to blame which is yet another reason why dps meters are thankfully not fully "allowed" in this game.

Again though you have failed to point out how OTHER PEOPLE'S failures which you have no control over have anything to do with YOUR INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE, which is what you are in control of and is what matters if you want to tell yourself you beat X content.

If you want to argue that the challenge of a fight comes from something you have no control over though be my guest xD

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I know you're a troll so I'm not gonna entertain everything but yes, the challenge of Expert/Savage/Ultimate is getting 8 people to do mechanics with a varying degree of perfection. It is what it is, this is the challenge. Learning or executing mechanics isn't the difficult part by any means, it's having the mental fortitude to do them after several wipes caused by a single or a series of human mistakes.

The game doesn't offer any solo combat challenge aside from the top of my head, the Masked Carnivale, Bozja Duels, and Deep Dungeon solo climbing.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

I know you're a troll so I'm not gonna entertain everything but yes, the challenge of Expert/Savage/Ultimate is getting 8 people to do mechanics with a varying degree of perfection. It is what it is, this is the challenge. Learning or executing mechanics isn't the difficult part by any means, it's having the mental fortitude to do them after several wipes caused by a single or a series of human mistakes

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Glad to see you at least decided to go with the "What is challenging is something completely out of your control" in your attempt to demean any form of solo content that could even require far higher individual performance yet lacks the prestige of high end content that many elitists have inflated to absurdity in many video games even though the individual performance required might be the same or less.
Example of this overinflating? Your very own choice words, using the term "perfection" as if any of the content you listed requires "perfection", if that was ever the case in any game only perfectly scripted bots and handful of people would be up to that and because the developers of any game know this, they never do it, but elitists love to hype up high end content as some kind of unimaginably hard challenge in order to indirectly boost their self worth, again might I remind you, this is a video game, you didnt achieve anything great or do you believe real life enemies are gonna attack you in obvious patterns or tell you that they are gonna attack everywhere but the safe spot so you better hurry and run there xD

I have nothing further to say, the absurdity of your argument speaks for itself.

Sounds like this isn't a request in good faith, but rather, a clumsy attempt to stick it to those darned elitist raiders. Or maybe the agenda is a bit more underhanded than that, op tends to look down on group challenges in favor of solo ones, there's a definite tone of smug superiority in some of his posts about how solo challenges are more legitimate. Perhaps he doth protest too much about those dirty elitists?

Either way this popcorn tastes great.

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

I know you're a troll so I'm not gonna entertain everything but yes

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You have a strong mind, I cannot prevent myself enjoying such easy amusement.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

but elitists love to hype up high end content as some kind of unimaginably hard challenge in order to indirectly boost their self worth

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

the high end content who is known about high difficulty [/U]

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You're the very person saying that.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

the delusion that they are elite for doing high end group content really has gotten over some people’s heads even when they really are not that great

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You're the one saying that, nobody said that only elite can down hard content.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

Again though you have failed to point out how OTHER PEOPLE'S failures which you have no control over have anything to do with YOUR INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE, which is what you are in control of and is what matters if you want to tell yourself you beat X content.

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This is not true. You are free to choose your "other people". It's called a static and you are free to search for the one which fits your needs, what ever they are. You not putting the effort do not mean it's not a thing.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

I remind you, this is a video game, you didnt achieve anything great

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I don't understand why you keep beliving this is an argument. Performing in a hobby is a thing. Because you do not like it does not mean that other do not like it.


You know, everyone of your statement boils down to the exact same orginial problem : You cannot find a group which fits you. And with what I see here, the problem isn't you not standing other but other not standing you. Maybe because of your singular personality or because of

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

In case you haven’t realized you can easily get carried by 7 players

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or maybe something else.

And, because of this, you want to be able to clear everything solo. This is not a solution, this is a workaround. You can hide behind the "elitist" ennemy you made up but this won't change the realty of thing.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Sounds like this isn't a request in good faith, but rather, a clumsy attempt to stick it to those darned elitist raiders. Or maybe the agenda is a bit more underhanded than that, op tends to look down on group challenges in favor of solo ones, there's a definite tone of smug superiority in some of his posts about how solo challenges are more legitimate. Perhaps he doth protest too much about those dirty elitists?

Either way this popcorn tastes great.

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To be frank, I do think it would be nice if SE can add trust system to beyond what we have right now, just not into the current expansion’s higher end duties & ultimates (past expansions are fine imho). Even if they do, I’d be inclined to agree only if they are used to practice mechanics. Leave most—if not, all of the rewards from regular run in the regular runs.

Rewards for clearing with trust..? Well, anything that is purely cosmetic by nature would probably suffice like mounts, orchestrion roll, furniture, glamour piece, etc. You name it! Top tier gear? Leave them alone in regular runs.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

You're the one saying that, nobody said that only elite can down hard content.

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Well duh, if unhealthy people could admit their problems instead of using excuses and vague statements like "Oh i am just having fun, no need to analyze anything please, no need to go indepth about it, its just vague fun, doesnt matter if it is wrong, undeserving or even unjust, just let me have """"fun"""""

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

This is not true. You are free to choose your "other people".It's called a static

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Ah yes the "just make a group yo", because it is incredibly easy and fun to keep dealing with people until you find the right ones or jumping from FC to FC, why do you think the vast number of people prefer pugs? Because they want the rewards yet they dont want to bother with guilds, so adding a solo option would be the next step but that will be a nightmare for elitists since their ego depends on the delusion that they achieved something l33t epic by beating high end content and having those dirty casual solo players achieve the same will directly hurt the only thing their self worth depends on.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

And with what I see here, the problem isn't you not standing other but other not standing you. Maybe because of your singular personality
And, because of this, you want to be able to clear everything solo

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And here we see your complete inability to understand that not everyone is so self centered to only care about things that directly affect them, so no I never had an issue finding a guild when I wanted to do high end group content, and I ll be doing the same here, but that is irrelevant, because I can do that doesnt mean everyone will do and more importantly I care a lot more with breaking the delusion that elitists have created by inflating high end group content as some kind of ultra l33t ebin achievement (same thing has been done to WoW, yet mythic is literally nothing more than slightly harder heroic with an extra mechanic or two yet elitists have spread this false myth that it is ultra hard to boost their self esteem) which harms not only the community by perpetuating the mythic, it makes elitists even more delusional and obnoxious which is something kinda bad.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

You can hide behind the "elitist" ennemy you made up but this won't change the realty of thing.

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Elitist tryhards are a very well known and documented problems in many games so I am afraid I wouldnt need to make it up, thankfully this game is less plagued by them compared to others and that is because many people have the sense to oppose it when they see it attempt to spread.

A response, thank you!

people could admit their problems instead of using excuses and vague statements like "Oh i am just having fun, no need to analyze anything please, no need to go indepth about it, its just vague fun, doesnt matter if it is wrong, undeserving or even unjust, just let me have """"fun"""""
This confuse me a lot because this is the very argument people you defend use (maybe not in this very thread). I'll need more explanation here. And before asking people to admit their problems, you should begin by yourself.

why do you think the vast number of people prefer pugs
And you base this claim on...? Because, from my point of view, people prefer static.

be a nightmare for elitists since their ego depends on the delusion that they achieved something l33t epic by beating high end content and having those dirty casual solo players achieve the same will directly hurt the only thing their self worth depends on.
This is a well-known none-argument called the straw man argument (you'll find more information here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man). You're the one putting stereotype on people and then harassing them based on those.

And here we see your complete inability [...] and obnoxious which is something kinda bad.
Don't try to make you look like the white knight defending the defenceless, because you're doing them more arm with this attitude than by just saying nothing. You're the one cleaving the community and then using this cleave to start a war, thus negatively affecting everyone.

Elitist tryhards are a very well known and documented problems in many games
At least we agree on that point. But, on the other end of the spectrum, there are people like you who try to justify the absolute opposite. Which is as bad as the original problem. Maybe showing you what you look like will help you understand the reaction/response you get. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh2d...vaLaDirtLeague

To conclude my response I would say: Yes toxic elitist player actively harassing underperforming player do exist but they are a minority. Responding to them as you do, is, in my opinion the worst possible reaction. Even making it worst by polarizing people even more. I don't know if you really mean everything you write here and there or you just cornered yourself in a bad position and, for the sake of pride, you polarized yourself to become the very thing you tried to fight. But as you said, it's ok to admit its failure.

And to go a little back on topic, people await fairness. On one side you have: (1) Find a group (pf, static or whatever). (2) Learn the fight. (3) find a strategy to beat it (often comes from guide now) (4) 8 people do the fight correctly. And on the other side, you have (1) learn the fight. (2) 1 person do the fight correctly. As you can see, the first option is more demanding than the other, thus leading to less reward. And as I already said, no reward in this case, in my point of view.

This is one of the reasons why MMOS is a dying breed everything is made for casual and solo play nowadays there is just no reason to be social in the game anymore and this is pretty sad if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

This confuse me a lot because this is the very argument people you defend use (maybe not in this very thread). I'll need more explanation here.

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Simple, at some point intelligent people realize that words are meaningless because people lie to themselves often, so only their actions and consequences of their proposals actually matters, a very clear example would be a person playing a broken class that can 2 shot people in pvp, that person will most likely having a ton of fun but that feeling is undeserved since he is merely abusing something broken, unjust because other people suffer by getting 2 shotted unfairly and delusional because these people slowly starts believing they are unironically deserving of their victories and starts thinking they are elite.

Meanwhile a person having fun without being optimal and possibly ignorant of X thing from their job hurts nobody, and no I dont include "OMG wiping or spending more time than an efficient roflstomp to be the worst thing ever even though tryhards keep acting like that.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

Don't try to make you look like the white knight defending the defenseless, because you're doing them more arm with this attitude than by just saying nothing. You're the one cleaving the community and then using this cleave to start a war, thus negatively affecting everyone.

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Fair point, my methods are definitely not passive but that is because I cant be bothered anymore so directly pointing out the core of the problem and unhealthiness of certain individuals for others to see is how I work, I dont have an issue if I am personally viewed negatively, the goal is to remind elitist tryhards that this aint their playground and their attempts to influence the community wont succeed.

Speaking out is how you stop certain things from taking root, being silent might as well lead to approval.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

This is a well-known none-argument called the straw man argument

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Pointing out how elitists are foaming in the mouth at the very idea that their prestigious l33t overinflated high end content could be beaten by one of those casual non hardcore non elite solo players is my point, no healthy individual gets mad and annoyed by accessibility, in WoW i would advocate for every single person to have a path to mythic ilvl, slower for easier content of course but even the idea that the average casual would have access to their prestige l33t gear was enough to make elitist foam.

Thus this is because their ego depends on said video game "prestige" and making that accessible hurts their self worth which is what explains the extreme reaction to any form of accessibility suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

And you base this claim on...? Because, from my point of view, people prefer static.

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Majority of players in any mmorpg are casual solo players who pug content, I have little interest what tryhards prefer since they are the minority in any game.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

fairness. On one side you have: (1) Find a group (pf, static or whatever). (2) Learn the fight. (3) find a strategy to beat it (often comes from guide now) (4) 8 people do the fight correctly. And on the other side, you have (1) learn the fight. (2) 1 person do the fight correctly. As you can see, the first option is more demanding than the other, thus leading to less reward.

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Well here's the problem, elitist tryhards take pride in beating high end group content and delude themselves they are great, skilled and elite players because they beat the encounter, are you suggesting they get that delusion because they dealt with the bothersome social barrier of finding the group and because 7 other people whose performance is completely out of your control didnt fail? Or is it the most likely case that they have deluded themselves that they are elite because they played well themselves hence individual performance.

Elitists dont praise their ability to deal with social barriers, they praise their """skill""" aka what controls individual performance and that is the same both in solo trust and in group.

Again the only thing truly harder in that comparison is finding other people, which honestly has always been the main challenge in any high end content in any mmorpg, so unless I start seeing tryhard elitists start saying how skilled they are at finding people and being social rather than their individual ingame performance I will focus on individual performance unless you want to argue that people who take pride in clearing high end content take pride in "being social" and "things completely outside their control aka 7 other ppl not failing"

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Originally Posted by snipski

This is one of the reasons why MMOS is a dying breed everything is made for casual and solo play nowadays there is just no reason to be social in the game anymore and this is pretty sad if you ask me.

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Take from it what you want, but if an MMO needs exclusively group content for other players to be social, then there is a different underlying issue. Sure, grouping up out of necessity can of course lead to more social activities, but being social, bonding with others and so on should usually be an intrinsic motivation and promote further intrinsic and extrinsic get-together concepts (i. e. grouping up, joining/creating a FC, statics to do harder content for the challenge and/or loot). If the story were doable purely solo/with NPCs or not, should in an ideal case bear no difference.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

To be frank, I do think it would be nice if SE can add trust system to beyond what we have right now, just not into the current expansion’s higher end duties & ultimates (past expansions are fine imho). Even if they do, I’d be inclined to agree only if they are used to practice mechanics. Leave most—if not, all of the rewards from regular run in the regular runs.

Rewards for clearing with trust..? Well, anything that is purely cosmetic by nature would probably suffice like mounts, orchestrion roll, furniture, glamour piece, etc. You name it! Top tier gear? Leave them alone in regular runs.

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I agree, personally. Trusts provide a great low-stakes environment for a player to play around with a job they're unfamiliar with, and definitely help quash the narrative dissonance of "why is WoL the only one doing anything?" I wouldn't mind seeing them expanded some at all. As far as whether they should give any rewards at all... hm, that's a good question. Personally I lean 'no,' though if they did add rewards I would say perhaps make them specific to the trusts themselves. Clear e9s with your trust and Thancred gets a new piece of gear would be a neat way to go about it maybe.

As it stands, trusts do have certain concessions that can make doing trust extremes or savage actually quite difficult: namely, "if you die, the run wipes automatically." Which makes sense; if you're going alone, you're accepting 100% of the responsibility. You also wouldn't be able to dictate strategies to the trust group like you could with a static; whatever the trust does is what you have to follow, because they won't be able to adjust around you. With that said, the trusts having a written-out strat will affect the community, so perhaps delay the ability to run trusts in savage until after savage's loot has been unlocked to prevent that...or delay / mitigate it.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

casuals/solo players must be terribad, incompetent, lazy, cant improve, need handholding, handicap features

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This guy is so toxic. First he hating on the hardcore players, now insulting the casuals/solo players.

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Sadly for you, some of us are not so short sighted to only care about what directly affects us, injustice, delusions, elitism and many more things that are bad are things that I will always oppose.

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He also mad that he can't cheese optional full party content that is suppose to be a challenge. Making claims like "hur dur solo challenge" while ignoring the several solo challenges the game already provides.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Sounds like this isn't a request in good faith, but rather, a clumsy attempt to stick it to those darned elitist raiders. Or maybe the agenda is a bit more underhanded than that, op tends to look down on group challenges in favor of solo ones, there's a definite tone of smug superiority in some of his posts about how solo challenges are more legitimate. Perhaps he doth protest too much about those dirty elitists?

Either way this popcorn tastes great.

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OP is a casual gamer, but a hardcore keyboard warrior. He is his own enemy.

I tried trusts a few times and just didn't care for them. The elf guy that is an Astro, doesn't know how to use cards properly, but to be fair most Astros in DF don't either. The Gunbreaker guy can only single pull, but again so do a lot of tanks in DF. They enjoy standing in aoes, again same as most people in DF. They seem to be allergic to using aoes as people in DF. It's like SE went into DF and modled trusts after your common party member..

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Originally Posted by Delis

I tried trusts a few times and just didn't care for them. The elf guy that is an Astro, doesn't know how to use cards properly, but to be fair most Astros in DF don't either. The Gunbreaker guy can only single pull, but again so do a lot of tanks in DF. They enjoy standing in aoes, again same as most people in DF. They seem to be allergic to using aoes as people in DF. It's like SE went into DF and modled trusts after your common party member..

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If they make trust party performing way too good, DFs would die.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

casuals/solo players must be terribad, incompetent, lazy, cant improve, need handholding, handicap features

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This guy is so toxic. First he hating on the hardcore players, now insulting the casuals/solo players.

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You do know that people can see that you just quoted him out of context, right?

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

If they make trust party performing way too good, DFs would die.

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That won't be the case unless TRUST is available for all duties, including roulettes.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

If they make trust party performing way too good, DFs would die.

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Highly doubtful, the whole point of expanded trusts would be that they are an option but not only slower due to npcs doing the bare minimum, it also means you won’t be skipping phases, your performance would also need to be above average to get everything through.

And we both know that some people are obsessed over time spend so they will always prefer quick roflstomp with 8 players where more than half overperform/over gear so they can skip phases and do things quickly, expanded trusts would be nothing more than an additional option that is slower, require more personal effort than a group and is there just for people who either don’t have time to find people or just don’t want to deal with people.

Would some people that currently use df/pf prefer trusts and start avoiding df/pf? Yes, they will because right now they are FORCED to deal with people even though they don’t like it so of course they will jump at the opportunity to avoid doing something they dislike.

And I am against forcing people into things they don’t like simply because it is the only way for them to get the reward they want.

I would use trust more, if I didn't have to level them. I don't understand why they need to be level up, before you finish the main story of SHB you were able to access all the dungeons up to that point with them. It was great being able to hop and and farm gear for glamor. Then once you finish the notice pops up saying to keep using them you have to now level them up. Like why? They are stuck at lvl 71 because it seems like such a chore to level them.

Simple, at some point intelligent [...]
Sorry but again I fail to understand your point. Your example is like saying that the peak speed of a car is bigger than the one of a bike. To that I agree but I don't see the relation of this with the root problem. In your original statement, in which mouth did you put this sentence "Oh i am just having fun, [...], just let me have fun". And don't use the argument that I'm not intelligent... it will be pathetic.

I dont have an issue if I am personally viewed negatively
The problem is not that you are seen negatively, the problem is that by acting like that, you are a part of the problem. You do not fight extremism with extremism. This only leads to more extremism.

no healthy individual gets mad and annoyed by accessibility
Accessibility is not a problem. Same reward for more accessible content is. Or harassing people because they don't want or are not able to beat none accessible content is.

Well here's the problem, elitist tryhards take pride in beating high end group content and delude themselves they are great, skilled and elite players because they beat the encounter,
But... they are great and skilled to beat hard content. That's why it's called hard content, because you need skill to beat it and not everybody can do it. This is exactly why there is exclusive loot, like mounts, that only drop for this very type of content, to brag about it. And therefore, this should not drop if you make this content more accessible. If you harass or lower other people because you're doing better than them, you need to be punished, I agree with that. But bragging about being able to beat hard content is totally ok.

To conclude, let me explain to you how I see players here and how I see you.

Here are how I categories players:
(0) players who want all the loot but don't want to put effort in it.
(1) players who don't carry their weight (underperform massively) and don't care about it.
(2) players who don't carry their weight and improve themself. This is just a temporary group.
(3) players who carry their weight (normal average people, I'm in this group) From here you can down ex and savage.
(4) players who carry more than their weight (performing) and don't care about it. From here you can down ultimate.
(5) players who carry more than their weight and blame people who don't do the same.

For me (0), (1) and (5) are not ok and they should be punished. Now this is how I see you: If I'm very optimistic, I'd say that you try to fight against (5). To do so, your plane is to
1. Spoil them from their exclusive reward by giving them to everyone by easing all the challenges.
2. Because (5) exist you want to force people to accept (0) and (1) to counterbalance, I suppose.

But this strategy is failing. Let me explain you why.
* You have absolutely no impact on (0), (1) and (5), because, by definition, they don't care about others. They will exist whatever effort or not you put in to suppress them.
* You alienate (2) by depriving them from their potential progression success.
* You alienate (3) because they know that (0), (1) should not be allowed.
* You alienate (4) because, same than (3), and you mix them with (5) even thou they did nothing wrong.
* And, last but not least, and this is the main problem that all white knights have: they think the world need their protection and their "intelligence", as you so proudly mentioned it, which is wrong. The vast majority of people know what they want, how to get it and how to defend themselves. The other, which indeed, need some help, are not profiting from your action. If you want to help them, you need to do it case by case, by actually helping them, not by fighting, what you suppose, are their enemies. Talk to them, know them, support them and advise them, so they can resolve their problem by themselves. There is nothing worse than resolving people's problem for them.

This is why you fail at your task, why almost everybody is against you and why, at the end, you will be silenced by people in charge. Because you're harassing people, even if you think it is justified. Because you've become what you were fighting. And all the efforts you put in this fight will be obliterate. And you will suffer about it and will join either (0) or (5). And at this point you will understand why those groups exist and why your actions were useless. But it will be too late and the redemption road will be long and painful.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

(0) players who want all the loot but don't want to put effort in it.
(1) players who don't carry their weight (underperform massively) and don't care about it.

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https://pics.me.me/thumb_sickness-mu...e-48666313.png

I love the trust system and appreciate the fact they added it.
I choose that 100% of the time if it is a choice.

Would love to have story trials with trusts too.

Keep expanding se!! tyty

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Originally Posted by linayar

You do know that people can see that you just quoted him out of context, right?

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Nah, still within context.

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

And I am against forcing people into things they don’t like simply because it is the only way for them to get the reward they want.

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If someone don't like challenging group content and the gear the content rewards them isn't necessary, why exactly do they need those rewards?

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

(3) players who carry their weight (normal average people, I'm in this group) From here you can down ex and savage.

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I'll just disagree here.

You can make a mistake or two while doing your job properly and still do EX. This isn't good enough for savage.

Savage is the point where you can't make deadly mistakes anymore, and you need to carry your weight.

EX is the point where you can make a very few mistakes, and you need to carry your weight.

I can do ex, but I can't do savage. I'd like to fix that, so In a way I'm still #2...

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

Nah, still within context.



If someone don't like challenging group content and the gear the content rewards them isn't necessary, why exactly do they need those rewards?

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This argument kind of went out the window the moment SE decided dyeable AF armor was going to be locked behind an EX trial. It wasn't even better than other gear at the time. You're doing the trial just for the ability to dye gear.

They also do it for raid gear too.

Honestly, trusts are fun and I hope they expand them to at least include MSQ trials but I would be fine if they included them in harder content too. Playing with other players will always be faster, but sometimes I do prefer to sit down and not play with other players for various reasons(whether I'm expecting a phone call and don't want to afk in the middle of a dungeon, not feeling sociable, whatever.) There's also the story aspect. It felt cool to go through each dungeon the first time with the characters who were supposed to be right there with me.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

but I don't see the relation of this with the root problem.

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In the pvp example I gave it should be obvious, person deludes themselves that their way of playing is acceptable even if it literally is at the expense of others and also often believes they are deserving of their victories, now if that person was capable of admitting that all these victories are false, hollow, meaningless that would also mean they cannot delude themselves they are a good player, skilled, capable and cant boost their self worth that way, thus instead they choose to say its is just "fun" and not bother analyzing further because that allows the person to boost their self worth which is their true goal, just like the person to defends something as unhealthy as bragging rights, again words are meaningless, actions are what reveal a person's true goals.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

You do not fight extremism with extremism. This only leads to more extremism.

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And what I say is absolutely not extreme, what I am saying is bragging rights are unhealthy and attract insecure people and that shouldnt happen, elitists delude themselves by inflating their achievements and calling others incapable, bad, low skilled etc to inflate their self worth further while keep inventing imaginary bad players to justify their position and that is yet another thing that shouldnt happen, I also say that people should have access to content and rewards they like and shouldnt be forced to do something they dont because the reward is locked behind it therefore there should be multiple ways to get said rewards that work for both casual and hardcore players.

If that is seen as extreme then I would say the problem is you.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

Accessibility is not a problem. Same reward for more accessible content is. Or harassing people because they don't want or are not able to beat none accessible content is.

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Same thing, the fact that letting people access rewards they like scared elitists and makes them foam at anyone suggesting that is my proof as to how unhealthy they are because their ego is so attached to digital pixels they cant handle someone else getting the same digital pixels because they like them, not because of bragging rights"

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

This is exactly why there is exclusive loot, like mounts, that only drop for this very type of content, to brag about it
bragging about being able to beat hard content is totally ok.

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Ah yes such a good and healthy thing, "bragging rights", I certainly have said that sometimes earlier in this forum but if someone is truly healthy and knows they are decent and a good player they dont need the game to confirm it via achievements and exclusive loot, that exists only for the insecure and unhealthy(And sadly the gaming sphere has so many of both) to get slowly addicted to the feeling that they """"achieved""" something hence why i keep saying it is their self worth depending on the game that is turning them toxic because no healthy person ever puts their self worth on something as basic as a video game. So no, anyone who unironically supports the idea of exclusive rewards and bragging rights is not healthy and both of those should have been removed ages ago, but hey, manipulative psychological marketing aka as marketing is still legal so the species is still pretty deep in the dark ages so I cant expect much.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

But... they are great and skilled to beat hard content

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How are they skilled exactly? You chose to focus completely on the social aspect of finding groups and statics as well as things you have no control over such as the performance of others and you ignored the part of individual performance which is the same in a solo trust so now you cant just run all the way back and pretend individual skill is relevant.
You either admit that individual skill is what matters thus beating said challenge in a trust makes you equally skilled and deserving of equal prestige(In the eyes of elitists at least, not healthy people) or you argue that the real skill is the social aspects and things outside of your control such as the performance of others which cant be found in a solo trust scenario.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

not everybody can do it

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And that is one of the many lies elitists tell themselves to inflate their achievement, they unironically say something as extremely basic as SCRIPTED, PREDICTABLE, TELEGRAPHED content with a ton of giant assistant signs is something that "not everyone can do" while the truth is even if you put a clueless kid in such a """"challenge"""" they will beat it after a while, they only people that you could say cant do it would be people with extreme levels of disability, so that argument is a pure delusion that only exists to inflate the elitist achievement, see my signature for that.

Unless you want to go all the way back and argue that this isnt about individual skill rather it is about being social and finding people and things completely out of your control like other people's mistakes or performance which in that case many people either dont have the time or simply dont want to have to deal with the drama that is people or having to jump from guild to guild because they either died, stopped caring about X or are simply toxic, anyone who has done that in the past knows how tiring this process can be yet elitists seem to love the idea of forcing people through it because it is the only way to get the rewards they want, because forcing people to do something they dont like in order to get something they like is such a great and healthy mentality.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

(0) players who want all the loot but don't want to put effort in it.

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Again a delusion created by elitists I ve seen countless times, not a single person who demands accessibility ever asks for "send me this reward in the mail", they ask for a way, content, grind that would let them get the reward.

The real source of this belief is the idea that your high end group content is so superior and elite that no other way of getting that reward is "worthy" in the eyes of the elite that have already inflated their achievements to the heavens to help with their self esteem issues, again unhealthy and emotional based argument, when one's self worth depends on something being "rare" of course they dont want that something to be available to all, if they were healthy they had 0 issues with it.

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Originally Posted by Darkmoonrise

And you will suffer about it and will join either (0) or (5)

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My, my because of course a person like me couldnt be a 4, I clearly either have to be an extremely bad player demanding free rewards or somekind of elitist, and the fact that you think you are capable of speaking about my future when you clearly fail to grasp many things I point out is a little ironic.


And looks like the person who attempted to turn what I say against me had their post deleted but I will say this, simply look at what I am standing for, and what elitists are standing for.
In WoW because I wanted decent gear(That means mythic) so I was forced to rush and hurry and pug 14-15s on multiple characters as well as fully clear heroic at the minimum since the bfa mythic guild died in the expansion made for absolute tryhards, so i had what you see as "elite" status, my EU account also had the legion mage tower appearances I liked, yet I kept supporting for everyone to have a path for mythic gear through casual and solo means as well as bringing back mage tower appearances for people who werent there and couldnt get them, and just as it is in every game this causes extreme pain to elitists whose ego depends on those special unique rewards that the casual "plebs" cant have, I was completely fine with sharing my """elite rewards""" with the casual players because my ego was not based on said rewards, I dont need rewards to tell me I am good, I want rewards because they look nice or fit me and in terms of gear, because I like gear progression.

So here I am pushing for people to be able to have access to both content and rewards, not because of something as insecure and unhealthy as "bragging rights" but because they merely like that thing, be it content or reward or even concepts such as gear progression.

Now on the other hard elitists are there to keep the barriers, to keep forcing people to do thing they dont like, to withhold cool rewards from others for the sake of their fragile self esteem, to keep pushing people down and calling them incapable, bad, cant improve etc to inflate their own sense of achievement, and love bragging rights(From beating a video game designed from the ground up to be won).

If you feel the latter are on the right, your choice, I ve said what needs to be said.

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Originally Posted by Arzalis

This argument kind of went out the window the moment SE decided dyeable AF armor was going to be locked behind an EX trial. It wasn't even better than other gear at the time. You're doing the trial just for the ability to dye gear.

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What argument are you even talking about? Dyeable af gear isn't required nor needed for normal content progression. If you want the rewards from harder content, regardless of it being for BiS or just glamour, earn it.

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Originally Posted by Daibunnie

What argument are you even talking about? Dyeable af gear isn't required nor needed for normal content progression. If you want the rewards from harder content, regardless of it being for BiS or just glamour, earn it.

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i think the memoria misera.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

I'll just disagree here.

You can make a mistake or two while doing your job properly and still do EX. This isn't good enough for savage.

Savage is the point where you can't make deadly mistakes anymore, and you need to carry your weight.

EX is the point where you can make a very few mistakes, and you need to carry your weight.

I can do ex, but I can't do savage. I'd like to fix that, so In a way I'm still #2...

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You can die in savage either.
It just depends when.

If its during a big downtime it doesn't matter. It's only when a mechanic requires 8 people that you have to be alive or it can snowball into a wipe.
But you still can make mistake, the windows is just more tight.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

But you still can make mistake, the windows is just more tight.

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This, dont let people who hype up and inflate high end group content as somekind of ultra l33t impossibly hard task that requires perfection fool you, it is merely just harder than the previous difficulty and still has a decent room for error, the room for error simply gets reduced the higher you go but it is still there and that even includes ultimate, so if you feel like trying you absolutely can, it is not beyond you, tis a video game after all

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Originally Posted by Ralph2449

the room for error simply gets reduced the higher you go but it is still there and that even includes ultimate, so if you feel like trying you absolutely can, it is not beyond you, tis a video game after all

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Hahaha I'll never forget watching some of the worlds first TEA clears and seeing DoTs falling off and the occasional death and people still clearing it.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

You can die in savage either.

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And you can not have a single death and still die to enrage. It all boils down to one thing, is your group pushing more than the minimum DPS or not? I've had a pug group of all 530 for E12s door boss and we died to friggen 2% enrage despite having 0 deaths. How to fix something like this? disband or replace the baddies. Simple as that. ilvl can't fix bad players.

The system was good at the start of shadowbringers. It’s main benefits were allowing you to learn, guaranteeing loot drops and allowing you to skip queues/progress.

Once you finish shadowbringers it becomes far less useful. The levelling up of characters should probably have happened as you were going through them the first time. As it is it’s just another grind that is added, at a point where it’s not really needed anymore and they effectively remove your ability to do the dungeons unless you do said grind.