Pronouns?

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

It's really hard to simpatize when you jump at the slightest provocation and are very easily led on. It's no wonder coments like rance's get traction when there are people like you reacting to them to other viewers' amusements.

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The kinds of folk who would leave a like on Rance's post are not the kinds of folk I would like to know anyway.

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Originally Posted by KayRadley

The kinds of folk who would leave a like on Rance's post are not the kinds of folk I would like to know anyway.

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You're playing a game with people from all sorts of different countries, backgrounds, cultures and experiences. You can pick and choose who you interact with, of course, but at the end of the day this situation is more complicated than many are willing to admit.

S'pose I can weigh in. Haven't actually done so yet, and the thread's already alight anyway.

Aside from the fact this is just not happening, ever, I don't really care either way. Well, that's a lie- I'd care if it's obtrusive, but in the hypothetical world a third or fourth option would be available, it'd be one button at character select I'd never have to interact with beyond that point. Wouldn't affect me much what other people see on their screens.

Wake me up when cross-dressing options get to the point where I can make a guy PC convincingly pass for a girl PC, though. I'm down for that.

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Originally Posted by AnonymousBard

I wonder how many pages this will go on for?

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Depends what time the mods wake up and take their weekly look in.

Isn't this why Twitter exists? Can't you just go over there?

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Originally Posted by Gameovers

I forget the quest but yeah fantas are canon ingame items NPCs can buy and use. SE makes damn near everything canon so it's no shock to me honestly.

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I don't have any memory of such a quest.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

The Fae are a non-playable race consisting of the spirits of deceased children. Probably not the best thing for players to associate their character with.

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not all of the fae are the spirits of deceased children. That's specifically the pixies.

ehhh, don't NPC's already mostly use terms like adventurer; hero of Ishgard; warrior of light/darkness ect when talking about the player character (especially in voiced cutscenes and the Tales of storries)? So that's already gender neutral language, simply because it means they only have to record one version of the cutscenes.
Heck, in Japanese this is even more prominent since referring to someone like this is more common than using he/her. It's honestly only the German and French versions that are explicit in regards to pronouns because gendered language

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I suspect it might have something to do with the fact that the term 'bigoted' and similar phrases are thrown around so often that they have, on many fronts, lost all meaning.

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There are times when the term "bigot" and "nazi" are used inappropriately. For example, if you voted for "x" that means you are a "y" which does devalue words. However, it is extremely concerning when an actual bigoted post garners so many likes.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Painting people as 'undesirables' for not being in full agreement with complicated issues is pretty abhorrent.

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This is incredibly reprehensible behavior which I do not condone. I absolutely hate when people try to lump me together with the LGBTQ or whatever community simply because I'm transgender and then they speak for me like I'm part of a collective hive mind. Many of my friends are Christians and Republicans, I'm not going to hate someone simply because they hold different political opinions or religious beliefs. It's concerning how polarizing everything has become from people on all sides of the political spectrum, what happened to basic human decency?

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

It's really hard to simpatize when you jump at the slightest provocation and are very easily led on. It's no wonder coments like rance's get traction when there are people like you reacting to them to other viewers' amusements.

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It's disturbing how people can find amusement in comments like Rances, then again people find amusement from calling black people the N-word or making sexist comments against women. So it's hardly surprising or unexpected behavior on the internet.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

It's disturbing how people can find amusement in comments like Rances, then again people find amusement from calling black people the N-word or making sexist comments against women. So it's hardly surprising or unexpected behavior on the internet.

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I mean it IS disturbing to find amusement in comments like Rance's. But it's not the comment itself what people is getting amused by to begin. it's the heated answer what they look for. That's the whole draw there is to controversial statements and trolls, and it's a huge part of what a lot of alt-right sites thrive in: in getting angry responses.

Most of these comments are far less with the intention of letting transphobic feelings out and way, WAY, more with the intention of evoking a response, and getting drawn in their game will only act in your detriment. Either you recognize the bait and learn to ignore it, or you learn to step up your sense of humor and turn the tables against them.

The OP is asking for a gender neutral pronoun. I don't even understand why trans are even a part of this conversation.

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Originally Posted by swiss_Momo

ehhh, don't NPC's already mostly use terms like adventurer; hero of Ishgard; warrior of light/darkness ect when talking about the player character (especially in voiced cutscenes and the Tales of storries)? So that's already gender neutral language, simply because it means they only have to record one version of the cutscenes.

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In voiced cutscenes to cut down on needing to record two versions of a line, yes. But sometimes they just can't help it or they'd tie the language into knots.

The rest of the time, they do use gendered wording a lot through the script.

I think a big conundrum with including a separate pronoun choice in games (not specifically FFXIV but with that kind of setup), even if the writers want to and are starting from scratch so they can build it in, is that it does multiply how many versions of scenarios they have to write out. A "third option" of using they is really more like a third-and-fourth option because dialogue will still differ between male-bodied and female-bodied characters. Give a free choice of he/she/they and you need to write - or at least consider - six variations of how the dialogue would play out. Certainly FFXIV's script would need places where people mistake your gender or ignore it or just aren't going to know.

Only allowing for the two distinct genders and no middle ground for confusion is just a lot simpler for storywriting purposes with a variable character, especially in a game like this with a complex script, because it has a lot more impact on dialogue than other character-design choices.

alright I can't be the only one noticing the massive amount of post culling going on here

I wouldnt call it minimal considering the amount of dialogues and voice acting that exists, it would take a lot of work, so i cant see it happening.
Plus its a lot eassier to work with he/him she/her.

Still not sure why people make transphobic comments but i guess twitter is leaking in here too lol

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

The OP is asking for a gender neutral pronoun. I don't even understand why trans are even a part of this conversation.

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Because this is the internet

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

alright I can't be the only one noticing the massive amount of post culling going on here

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That's because some of the posts were abhorrently malicious towards a simple, well-meaning question.

And to answer the OP, there isn't a way to set pronouns and there likely never will be because of the intricacies of a said option and the way the game is coded. Make full use of the character comments as most people in game won't have get in a tizzy over it.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

What makes you confident?

That "binary toggle" for setting male or female pronouns is the same one for setting whether the character is male or female. There isn't a separate record of what pronouns to use - and if you "open it up to players' choice" (or even add a single third option) then it stops being a binary toggle and becomes something that needs to hold more data than the simple binary on/off.

It's also just not how the script works.

It doesn't store "he/she" in some separate place and drop them into the script as required; pronouns are built into every single piece of script individually. It might be he/she, him/her, sir/madam, Master/Mistress [Forename] or it might be an entire sentence or paragraph that needs to change for a particular situation. It would be a huge undertaking to alter every single line of text to include a third option, and open choice wouldn't even be feasible.

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Actually....the game scripts very much store a general script that uses a <gender placeholder>. The same way it does for <race placeholder> too. There's a fair amount of branching and text payloads that go on in the game's scripts and making additional changes isn't the massive task you may think it is.

While directly talking about datamined resources and where to find them is against the ToS, it's also only a quick internet search away and there is a whole third party plugin system that includes a pronoun preferences option. (Now injecting additional pronouns in would be a bit more...tricky, but not impossible.)

While I doubt this will ever be added to xiv (the game is 10 year old spaghetti) it would be nice to see pronoun/body type/voice separated as is done in more modern rpgs like the demon souls remake or the saints row games for the next ffmmo. More customisation is always nice, even if most ppl will just play a default face catgirl dancer

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Originally Posted by reiichi

Actually....the game scripts very much store a general script that uses a <gender placeholder>. The same way it does for <race placeholder> too. There's a fair amount of branching and text payloads that go on in the game's scripts and making additional changes isn't the massive task you may think it is.

While directly talking about datamined resources and where to find them is against the ToS, it's also only a quick internet search away and there is a whole third party plugin system that includes a pronoun preferences option. (Now injecting additional pronouns in would be a bit more...tricky, but not impossible.)

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From what I remember seeing of raw script, it's something along the lines of "if character is X, display text 'xxxxx'", and as I've been saying it's not just a matter of dropping in a single word in the right place bacuse there are so many different forms of gendered words or sentences.

It's not a matter of dropping in an external placeholder to determine whether Thancred tells you he's "quite taken with you" or simply "somewhat in awe". It's not placeholder text that determines how Magnai and Daidukul react to you. It's specific text at that place in the script which must check your character's gender and display the appropriate set of text boxes, but it's not just dropping pronouns alone into a generic script.

I can only imagine this "third party plug-in for custom preferences" had to do a lot of work to set up a custom system. It also presumably stores that information locally, and doesn't transmit it to other users, but if you want others to see your custom pronouns then that information has to be carried along with your character to every other person who sees you on their screen.

Thread already getting censored? Yet RagingStallion roams free

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I don't have any memory of such a quest.

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There's a majorly huge awesome biggest and monster like chance I'm misremembering details. but I remember being told they are canon and following it up with something in game telling me as such. Please don't hate me T.T

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Originally Posted by wereotter

This would hardly be much in terms of resources. If its wanting to use a male character and use female pronouns or vice-versa, all the work has already been done as the dialogue from NPCs already exists. It would simply be allowing the player to change that flag between M or F. Adding in they/them would be more work, sure. But a simple swap should be pretty simple.

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Separating the dialogue flag from the physical gender flag would probably be comparatively simple (but that does not necessarily make it simple in absolute terms, given the spaghetti code we know exists in some other parts of the game). But that flag affects more than just pronouns. If you just toggled that flag, various NPCs would be referring to your male-bodied character as "madam", "mistress", "lass", "girl", "woman" etc. This also applies to NPCs you've never met. How would they know your identified gender when you first talk to them? And like Iscah mentions it goes further than that. In some conversations it's not just single words that get changed but entire lines of dialogue are selected based on gender or other properties.

Also, I wonder how exactly the aetheryte transport system works? I have the impression that your physical body actually ceases to exist for a moment and you traverse the lifestream in aetherial form. Are there some constraints which require the physical body to be reconstituted in the exact same way, or would your physical appearance after such a trip rather match your mental self-image? If it's the latter then it would be pretty strange for the WoL to have gender dissonance and require pronouns not matching their physical body.

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Originally Posted by tdb

Also, I wonder how exactly the aetheryte transport system works? I have the impression that your physical body actually ceases to exist for a moment and you traverse the lifestream in aetherial form. Are there some constraints which require the physical body to be reconstituted in the exact same way, or would your physical appearance after such a trip rather match your mental self-image?

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From everything I have found the devices convert your body to it's aetherial form, then back to it's previous physical form at the other end. As far as I've seen or read, one's perception of the self doesn't seem to have the ability to change the output, although clothes, echo, and "other things" can go missing if the lifestream is pushed to the extreme.

However, the ability for someone to become a "primal", such as with Saint Shiva, suggests there would be other ways - like belief and prayer - with which one could transmute one's form into the form of the mind's eye.

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Originally Posted by AerilaHerekol

Hey Y'all!

I was wondering if anybody knows if there is a way to set or change your own pronouns in game, or if there is a way to note them to others without explicitly stating them?

I would like to go by They/Them pronouns in game, as this game has been one of the only spots I feel safe being myself.

I am sure there are other folks who are interested in finding out how to do this, or folks who want to see it implemented in some way if it's not already in game.

Thanks for your time, yall!

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Short of telling the individuals or groups directly. the best place is under your search info in game. the spot where you can fill with whatever you want and other player's can see. Other than that there is the profile section on your character's page on Lodestone.

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Originally Posted by Shibi

However, the ability for someone to become a "primal", such as with Saint Shiva, suggests there would be other ways - like belief and prayer - with which one could transmute one's form into the form of the mind's eye.

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People who turn themselves into primals (Shiva, King Thordan, Tsukuyomi) overload their bodies with aether to transform. When that aether runs out, they change back. Shiva/Ysayle is the only one we see to actually survive post-transformation for more than a few minutes; however, Archbishop Thordan was an elderly man beforehand, and Yotsuyu was repeatedly shot right afterwards, so it's hard to call if it's a side-effect of the transformation, an effect of the primal transformation without the protection of the Echo and/or Blessing of Light, or just because of outside circumstances. Either way, unless they continually feed on aether, the change isn't permanent.

It'd be hard to put this into the game and still be somewhat immersive.

I don't expect a barista to refer to me as "walking one", nor do I expect a vendor to refer to themselves as "this one" (except if they're Sylph). It's bad enough that all of those NPCs refer to me as "Warrior of Light" -- I can't get them to use "dancing one".

I'm all for requesting personal friends and acquaintances (aka players of FFXIV) to use pronouns of choice, but I don't believe SE will ever program them into the game.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

From what I remember seeing of raw script, it's something along the lines of "if character is X, display text 'xxxxx'", and as I've been saying it's not just a matter of dropping in a single word in the right place bacuse there are so many different forms of gendered words or sentences.

It's not a matter of dropping in an external placeholder to determine whether Thancred tells you he's "quite taken with you" or simply "somewhat in awe". It's not placeholder text that determines how Magnai and Daidukul react to you. It's specific text at that place in the script which must check your character's gender and display the appropriate set of text boxes, but it's not just dropping pronouns alone into a generic script.

I can only imagine this "third party plug-in for custom preferences" had to do a lot of work to set up a custom system. It also presumably stores that information locally, and doesn't transmit it to other users, but if you want others to see your custom pronouns then that information has to be carried along with your character to every other person who sees you on their screen.

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Using your first linked quest as an example,

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Ahhh! I'm sorry, <If(PlayerParameter(4))>m-m-madam<Else/>s-s-sir</If>! No need to get angry, now! I-I have a problem, all right!? I was working it out with my mummy, and─uh, er, ah...

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It's quite literally a template and placeholder system that generates the correct line based off your character's information. Just like any other templating system out there, you can have conditionals and branching which allows for a more "dynamic" text block display, which is what the game already does. Making an adjustment to check for some other character variable would be simple and like all other question dialog, handled completely client-side because the server doesn't care about pronouns. Naturally, the character's gender would still matter for things like equipping gear, but those checks do have to be validated by the server. There's no in-game dialog that checks the gender of your party members to my knowledge.

The plugin itself basically just overrides those local to the client variables and the text payload continues as normal. It'd be a lot more involved to inject something like "they/them" since that's not swapping a conditional if/else, but the general work needed to make these adjustments could be largely automated by the developers, I'd imagine as their scripting system likely allows them to already make those changes without having to hand-touch each one. (Just like how all the quests that mention race magically adjusted to Hrothgar and Viera).

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Originally Posted by reiichi

Using your first linked quest as an example,


It's quite literally a template and placeholder system that generates the correct line based off your character's information. Just like any other templating system out there, you can have conditionals and branching which allows for a more "dynamic" text block display, which is what the game already does. Making an adjustment to check for some other character variable would be simple and like all other question dialog, handled completely client-side because the server doesn't care about pronouns. Naturally, the character's gender would still matter for things like equipping gear, but those checks do have to be validated by the server. There's no in-game dialog that checks the gender of your party members to my knowledge.

The plugin itself basically just overrides those local to the client variables and the text payload continues as normal. It'd be a lot more involved to inject something like "they/them" since that's not swapping a conditional if/else, but the general work needed to make these adjustments could be largely automated by the developers, I'd imagine as their scripting system likely allows them to already make those changes without having to hand-touch each one. (Just like how all the quests that mention race magically adjusted to Hrothgar and Viera).

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You're still missing the voice acting problem.

It's not quite as easy to hire voice actors to go back and record every piece of gendered dialogue for a third or further option.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

You're still missing the voice acting problem.

It's not quite as easy to hire voice actors to go back and record every piece of gendered dialogue for a third or further option.

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Given the game's aversion to already voicing cutscenes in general, even fewer with the player being referenced beyond things like "you" or "yours," I don't think they'd have to really make adjustments. Or they could simply start with asking a player to pick whether they'd prefer their character be referred to with masculine or feminine words that could be adjusted just like cutscene languages. The game's scripting engine already knows how to select the right dialog options based on character variables, and while that wouldn't work well for someone who's not on the binary spectrum, it'd certainly be better than nothing at all.

For text-only dialog options though, as I've mentioned in prior posts, these changes are incredibly easy to adjust for and it likely wouldn't involve particular work to include something like they/them style pronouns instead of he/him or she/hers and let a player set in the client which set they'd prefer.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

You're still missing the voice acting problem.

It's not quite as easy to hire voice actors to go back and record every piece of gendered dialogue for a third or further option.

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I'm still trying to remember the last time I saw a voice acted cutscene where anyone referred to my character as anything other than "my friend" or "warrior of light" or something similar. I can't recall hearing "she" or "her." I've seen it in text obviously, but never said out loud.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I'm still trying to remember the last time I saw a voice acted cutscene where anyone referred to my character as anything other than "my friend" or "warrior of light" or something similar. I can't recall hearing "she" or "her." I've seen it in text obviously, but never said out loud.

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Cutscene right before you confront Vauthry, Exarch talks about his friend. About things he would like to do with he/she. Admittedly I only readily have this by hand because I just got done with that particular part of the story, but trust me on this when I say there are far more examples than just this.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I'm still trying to remember the last time I saw a voice acted cutscene where anyone referred to my character as anything other than "my friend" or "warrior of light" or something similar. I can't recall hearing "she" or "her." I've seen it in text obviously, but never said out loud.

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:confused: I heard it voiced multiple times last night when I caught up in story.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Cutscene right before you confront Vauthry, Exarch talks about his friend. About things he would like to do with he/she. Admittedly I only readily have this by hand because I just got done with that particular part of the story, but trust me on this when I say there are far more examples than just this.

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I stand corrected, although I will point out, that that's a scene where the gender neutral pronoun "they" would fit quite nicely. For the next MMO, perhaps.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Cutscene right before you confront Vauthry, Exarch talks about his friend. About things he would like to do with he/she. Admittedly I only readily have this by hand because I just got done with that particular part of the story, but trust me on this when I say there are far more examples than just this.

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Yeah, in the handful of situations where a voice line DOES actually refer to the player character's gender, we do have an issue there. But there's only a handful of them, and I think this is something that could be handle by letting the player have a fallback to one of the currently implemented choices (male or female pronouns). It's the sort of choice that SE could improve upon going forwards by either avoiding gendered phrases for the player (ex, "a person of your stature" instead of "a woman of your stature" or "a man of your stature"). And that saves them a line of recording.

There isn't really a perfect way to handle the already-recorded things because like plenty of other features that were tacked onto FFXIV, it wasn't a design decision from the start and there's going to be technical bloat. But I don't think that means it cannot be improved for new content.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

I stand corrected, although I will point out, that that's a scene where the gender neutral pronoun "they" would fit quite nicely. For the next MMO, perhaps.

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Just off the top of my head from last night. One example.

https://youtu.be/xHdQgaBKIKg?t=1114

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Originally Posted by reiichi

Yeah, in the handful of situations where a voice line DOES actually refer to the player character's gender, we do have an issue there. But there's only a handful of them, and I think this is something that could be handle by letting the player have a fallback to one of the currently implemented choices (male or female pronouns). It's the sort of choice that SE could improve upon going forwards by either avoiding gendered phrases for the player (ex, "a person of your stature" instead of "a woman of your stature" or "a man of your stature"). And that saves them a line of recording.

There isn't really a perfect way to handle the already-recorded things because like plenty of other features that were tacked onto FFXIV, it wasn't a design decision from the start and there's going to be technical bloat. But I don't think that means it cannot be improved for new content.

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No, I actually like my character being referred to as their proper gender, and would rather not have voice lines diluted for this purpose. It's not a "design choice" at all either to refer to someone as their sex. :confused:

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Originally Posted by reiichi

Yeah, in the handful of situations where a voice line DOES actually refer to the player character's gender, we do have an issue there. But there's only a handful of them, and I think this is something that could be handle by letting the player have a fallback to one of the currently implemented choices (male or female pronouns). It's the sort of choice that SE could improve upon going forwards by either avoiding gendered phrases for the player (ex, "a person of your stature" instead of "a woman of your stature" or "a man of your stature"). And that saves them a line of recording.

There isn't really a perfect way to handle the already-recorded things because like plenty of other features that were tacked onto FFXIV, it wasn't a design decision from the start and there's going to be technical bloat. But I don't think that means it cannot be improved for new content.

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Gonna be real with you chief, I'd rather you kept the "she" there. It added a lot more emotional punch to his speech than if he'd just said "they" which, by the way, a lot of people still go "isn't that plural?" when they hear or read it. A lot of people are more used to directed he/she's and would think the dialogue is weird if everything was aimed in third person.

I could see the argument for recording more voice lines for different options, but cutting back on them seems like the opposite of a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Gonna be real with you chief, I'd rather you kept the "she" there. It added a lot more emotional punch to his speech than if he'd just said "they" which, by the way, a lot of people still go "isn't that plural?" when they hear or read it. A lot of people are more used to directed he/she's and would think the dialogue is weird if everything was aimed in third person.

I could see the argument for recording more voice lines for different options, but cutting back on them seems like the opposite of a good idea.

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Why would the addition of the choice "they" to the traditional choices of ""she/he" dilute that in any way? You could still pick "she" if thats what you wanted.

Additionally "they/them" has been used as a singular pronoun for literal centuries. So those people would still be incorrect. That's a very tired excuse that never made sense.

Yeah we're talking about going forward.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Why would the addition of the choice "they" to the traditional choices of ""she/he" dilute that in any way? You could still pick "she" if thats what you wanted.

Additionally "they/them" has been used as a singular pronoun for literal centuries. So those people would still be incorrect. That's a very tired excuse that never made sense.

Yeah we're talking about going forward.

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The man was talking about cutting back voice options in favor of having everything third person.

I explicitely said I could see the argument for adding more options, but not for removing them.

Granted I still think it's not worth the additional effort, but I'm not going to deny that you lot have a point. Everything weighed on a scale I still think SE's current direction is the correct path to follow that makes the most sense, but you're not going to catch me saying that adding more options is a strictly negative thing.

As long as Khenda's being referred to as a woman throughout the game I really couldn't care less.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Why would the addition of the choice "they" to the traditional choices of ""she/he" dilute that in any way? You could still pick "she" if thats what you wanted.

Additionally "they/them" has been used as a singular pronoun for literal centuries. So those people would still be incorrect. That's a very tired excuse that never made sense.

Yeah we're talking about going forward.

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That reply is referring to removing gendered language as supposed "progress". Even the OP here didn't go that far, they were only asking for the option of a neutral pronoun.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Just off the top of my head from last night. One example.

https://youtu.be/xHdQgaBKIKg?t=1114


No, I actually like my character being referred to as their proper gender, and would rather not have voice lines diluted for this purpose. It's not a "design choice" at all either to refer to someone as their sex. :confused:

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I'm not sure how people's desire for MORE options means it's going to be taken away from you? Quite literally every line of dialog in the game, including those that have the character's pronouns, are a design choice. FFXIV could have gone the way of older games that only referred to the player character as "you" and never addressed their gender (because sex is biology and I'm pretty sure we're not trying to call people things based off unrendered sexy bits). Does it mean some scenes would have had a different impact? Maybe. But we're not rendering every single line that refers to the player character already because that also just doesn't happen in speech.

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Originally Posted by Ammokkx

Gonna be real with you chief, I'd rather you kept the "she" there. It added a lot more emotional punch to his speech than if he'd just said "they" which, by the way, a lot of people still go "isn't that plural?" when they hear or read it. A lot of people are more used to directed he/she's and would think the dialogue is weird if everything was aimed in third person.

I could see the argument for recording more voice lines for different options, but cutting back on them seems like the opposite of a good idea.

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Like I said to the other person, some of these scenes could be affected by making things more ambiguous, but I'm also certain they ALL could have been written in such a way to avoid the player character's gender if that's what the scriptwriters felt like doing. By the way though, third-person pronouns are "he, his, she, hers, they, them, etc." So the proposed change going forwards that I had demonstrated was actually getting away from third-person pronouns.

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Ultimately, I, as a cisgendered person, already have the game catering to my preference choices. while I don't expect SE to go back and "fix" things to be more inclusive, this isn't a technical limitation of the game so much as a choice by the people writing the game's dialog and the people who voice the lines. I think SE could make things more inclusive for the players who do want to have those choices in future games (or ideally, future content in this game), but I don't really have a horse in this race myself.