The toxicity starting to happen.

the difference between small pulls and big pulls is less than 5 minutes. just chill and follow the tank's pace.

Yeah nah. Party controls the pace, not the tank. If the party wants bigger pulls, then the tank has to conform and do bigger pulls... and they're not hard to do. I don't main tank (or healer), yet I can easily manage big pulls. Only time they get sketchy is if the healer is just a Curebot and DPS don't know how to AoE somehow.

Fun facts: I've *almost* never seen any of this on Japanese data center. People might complain behind closed doors etc, but there's a wonderful culture of keeping your mouth shut and just letting people play the !@% game.

Most of the conversation I've seen just went along the lines of "Healer> Sorry, I'm not comfortable with such large pulls" "Tank> OK". (or vice versa), or alternatively offers of explanation after a wipe.

I've seen and played both ways, but the only people I've ever had mouth off and openly complain were doing so in English, and oddly enough complaining while doing mentor roulette with a sprout... not explanation, just "omg you're so slow /leave"

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Yeah nah. Party controls the pace, not the tank.

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Not meaning to be argumentative at you by any means, but I've put up with crappy tanks/healers just to avoid the 30m wait in line for another dungeon as DPS. As a tank/healer, those pops are instant and I have absolutely just left parties to their fate for having crappy attitudes towards each other. I would never leave because of a player trying hard but failing...but bullying is where I draw the line.

In a recent roulette in Aurum Vale, I was pulling slow because a Japanese healer asked me to- The 2 DPS that were bullying the hell out of our her for a lot of close calls ultimately leading to an avoidable, but understandable wipe with [Mr. Just Got His Attack Markers This Patch]. Just told a healer "hey we're in the same world, let's just leave this, form party and re-queue". It was after 15 min into the dungeon, so we could just jump right into a new one. Sastasha never felt so good :D

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Fun facts: I've *almost* never seen any of this on Japanese data center. People might complain behind closed doors etc, but there's a wonderful culture of keeping your mouth shut and just letting people play the !@% game.

Most of the conversation I've seen just went along the lines of "Healer> Sorry, I'm not comfortable with such large pulls" "Tank> OK". (or vice versa), or alternatively offers of explanation after a wipe.

I've seen and played both ways, but the only people I've ever had mouth off and openly complain were doing so in English, and oddly enough complaining while doing mentor roulette with a sprout... not explanation, just "omg you're so slow /leave"

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The Japanese argument, really ?
Call me a masochist, but being ignorant to a situation for the sake of peace is no better than openly complaining. Imagine being on a public blacklist because no one wanted to say to your face that you need to be better.

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

The Japanese argument, really ?
Call me a masochist, but being ignorant to a situation for the sake of peace is no better than openly complaining. Imagine being on a public blacklist because no one wanted to say to your face that you need to be better.

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I think we just get that it's not worth complaining or ruining someone's day to save 5 minutes in a random dungeon with people we'll never see again?

I mean I get being in top form to clear bleeding-edge content, but a random romp in Brayflox? Really? It's worth ruining the game for a newbie so your ePeen feels better?

Also, not sure what you mean by a public server-wide blacklist, never heard of that here in Japan for FFXIV. Is that an American thing? Sounds like a lot of trouble to report on something so mundane.

Or are you talking the endgame community, because yeah that does exist, but it's more about being a crappy person in endgame community/being toxic in general. Not so much about those random bumps in casual play.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

the difference between small pulls and big pulls is less than 5 minutes. just chill and follow the tank's pace.

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Yeah, it's "just" 5 minutes and just a tiny amount but by a total of 15 minutes vs 20 Minutes it's 25% and that is huge in comparision.

I know big pulls as part of this game since back to Bryflox's Longstop (Hard), so 2.25, where the general strat was "pull everything to the bossline, pull the boss and lock as much of the trash outside of the boss arena as possible".
After that dungeon was introduced double, tripple and full pulling started to be the general strategy for every dungeon and it worked.
But then SE decided to put "walls" and "gates" into the dungeons and force the players to fight the trash between the bosses but you can still pull everything from wall to wall, even with gear near the min. iLvL but it will be slightly more challanging and DefCDs and more frequent healing are recommended.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Fun facts: I've *almost* never seen any of this on Japanese data center. People might complain behind closed doors etc, but there's a wonderful culture of keeping your mouth shut and just letting people play the !@% game.

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Yeah, but the healer not being comfortable with large pulls will still works his ass off to make the run as fast as possible for the party, while on the western DCs a healer not comfortable with big pulls mostly just wants to have more downtime to do things not related to completing the content. Japanese healers are still goal orientated and will DPS as much as possible independent of the pull size while we in the west have to fight against meme pure healers as the standard for this communities healers.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

Yeah, it's "just" 5 minutes and just a tiny amount but by a total of 15 minutes vs 20 Minutes it's 25% and that is huge in comparision.

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I waste more time derping out in front of the market board or staring off into space, so I'm not really concerned here. If we were talking 20 min ballooning into a 1 hour extravaganza it might be different.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

Japanese healers are still goal orientated and will DPS as much as possible independent of the pull size while we in the west have to fight against meme pure healers as the standard for this communities healers.

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I mean maybe, but I would say general competency/goals are about the same for any country really. Any differences we see is more about manners in my very humble opinion. I mean, when my wife is a healer, she basically goes into dungeons kicking and screaming like the whole building is on fire. She gets so nervous people might die that she just doesn't really do a lot of DPS. That said she refuses to PUG as tank or healer more out of a fear of letting others down than any particular worry about people getting angry at her.

ah, clarification if I didn't mention, she is Japanese.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

I'll be honest, I see less toxicity in game then people complain about online (only the occasional elitist or troll) and I see MORE toxicity on places like Reddit.

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This so much, I never wanted to attempt raiding because of these forums and reddit, well not just because of that, I hate being a burden... I had to do it for Shadowbringers, warned new groups I'm late to the party, get anxious and forgive me for any mistakes. They were awesome, patient and kind, out of all three raids, one person was complaining about new players going into raids. They got told to shut up lol.

Another example of faux outrage.

Someone experiences a douche bag in a group setting then comes to the forum and states "this community is suffering from a-holes and it needs to stop".

That couldn't be further from the truth. The vast majority of players just want to get through the content, if they are higher level players doing there roulette's and new players are there to experience it all new and most are enjoying themselves.

There are instances where I as a tank role get dps that "help" pull more, or a healer that struggles to keep up on large pulls because they hard cast cure 1 and dont use regen but its the exception not the norm. In almost all daily group settings its silence, or the typical hi,hey o/. There are some cases where new players will say they are new, but that's about the most of it. Heck the most i see people "chat" is during msq roulette.


There are lots of new players coming here since 5.3 with the generous play time the trial gives now which is great, but if they were to come to these forums the impression they would get from the community at large wouldn't be a good one if they were to believe what people were saying was gospel.


This place is turning into twitter.

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Originally Posted by Kleeya

Actually, with jump potions or by having leveling first a dps and then begin a GNB, you can totally be new to tanking at lvl 60 or 70.

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That isn't an excuse. If you unlock Gunbreaker and skip to 70, the onus remains on you to have either studied guides or go back into easier content until you have a bit of raw experience. If you jump Warrior and then immediately queue into Holminster Switch, I'll treat you exactly the same as someone who started at level 1. Jump potions shouldn't mean everyone now has to adjust because of your laziness. And it is laziness. If I could take the time spamming Aurum Vale and Darkhold a couple times way back in Heavensward because I leveled Dark Knight entirely through FATEs (Yo-Kai event 1.0) while doing some research. You can too.

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Originally Posted by Yuella

the difference between small pulls and big pulls is less than 5 minutes. just chill and follow the tank's pace.

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One could argue if the healer and dps are up to it large and small pulls requires similar amounts of effort. So why not pull large?

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Originally Posted by VirusOnline

The Japanese argument, really ?
Call me a masochist, but being ignorant to a situation for the sake of peace is no better than openly complaining. Imagine being on a public blacklist because no one wanted to say to your face that you need to be better.

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Pretty much. Just because people aren't complaining in chat doesn't mean that they are happy, or 'okay' with a situation.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Easiest way to solve this is to turn off tank stance and pull large and tell the healer to use their pro leet heals to keep everyone alive or just randomly shirk you aggro to the healer for laughs.

I DESPISE healers that want to pretend they know how to tank.

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By 80 PLD you'd expect someone to know the basics of how enmity works in this game but I guess they can't all be winners.

So if you had tank stance on and hit enemies enough to establish primary threat then shirk a healer you're only giving them 25% of your enmity. That leaves 75% of it on you. The healer will not make up the remaining 50% be it through dps or healing so nothing will happen.

Maybe after a few GCDs eventually a strong dps will rip off of you, likely not all the enemies anyways, and even if that happens any healer with half a brain can heal through it if they're paying attention.

What you'd want to do is face pull (stance or no stance, doesn't matter) to trick a healer into getting enmity by healing you. Itll still probably fail, since enemies will wind up on dps assuming basic competence, but it would have a better chance of success than the trash proposition you listed.

This is also refusal to participate though, and is actionable against you should anyone in the instance choose to report :D

(Oh look, a healer who knows how to tank better than you)

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Easiest way to solve this is to turn off tank stance and pull large and tell the healer to use their pro leet heals to keep everyone alive or just randomly shirk you aggro to the healer for laughs.

I DESPISE healers that want to pretend they know how to tank.

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As a tank main, this mindset is one of the pettiest, childish thing. As a tank you don't set the pace, the group as a whole does, you as tank aren't special. If the group wants small pulls, pull small, if they want large, pull large. The first thing I do when joining a dungeon is ask if we are doing big or small pulls. Now if you are just starting out and not fully comfortable with big pulls, let the group know at the start of the dungeon, so everyone is on the same page. Though i would urge you to jump in and learn big pulls, best way way to learn is to just do it, and let the group know at the start, most groups are understanding.

One of the things in this game that really is lacking is communication, I think a lot of issues wouldn't become issues if people just open their mouths and communicate at the start of the dungeon.

It's 2020 and we're still arguing about tank pulls, huh.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Uh I don't think "zerg" is from GW2. Pretty sure it's from StarCraft 2 or something?

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I think it's even as early as StarCraft 1. Zerg-rush has always been a thing in SC.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

I think it's even as early as StarCraft 1. Zerg-rush has always been a thing in SC.

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Ah. I've never played them personally, I've just heard it in reference to StarCraft 2 most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

Ah. I've never played them personally, I've just heard it in reference to StarCraft 2 most of the time.

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I used to play a lot of SC1. Got the first "expansion(?)" of SC2 but it just wasn't my type of game anymore.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

I'll be honest, I see less toxicity in game then people complain about online (only the occasional elitist or troll) and I see MORE toxicity on places like Reddit.

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Problem with reddit is that you CANNOT have different opinion and discussion there. It's either agree with them or be quiet. Perfect example of an echo chamber.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

It's 2020 and we're still arguing about tank pulls, huh.

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Some people still deny the fact that Tank has always been the shot caller and leader in MMO content. 2020 makes it even more relevant since everyone wants to be THE star but are not willing to take responsibility for it aka being the tank

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Some people still deny the fact that Tank has always been the shot caller and leader in MMO content. 2020 makes it even more relevant since everyone wants to be THE star but are not willing to take responsibility for it aka being the tank

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Tanks were the shot callers in other mmos because aggro management was a factor. In FFXIV right now aggro management is moot.

More WoW "refugees' and less FFXI "refugees."

With it being free to play, and becoming more and more trivial and less and less engaging, these are the types of people who will show up.

Someone probably already mentioned this but why tell the tank to dial it back, you learn nothing from quitting to early. If I were the healer I would have told him to try again as well

The healer technically determines the pace since they have to keep the tank alive previously aggro management pointed to the tank being lead but that’s not a thing anymore.

I always encourage new tanks to push pass what they think they can do because eventually that new person will want to try harder content and with this dial back attitude they will not be a successful tank....also I heal, tank and dps so there isn’t a told I don’t know

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

More WoW "refugees' and less FFXI "refugees."

With it being free to play, and becoming more and more trivial and less and less engaging, these are the types of people who will show up.

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Ah the Wow refugee, this communities favorite boogeyman. They are the cause of every problem with this game. Someone was mean to you? Wow refugee. You are in a farm party and can't handle mechanics and dps just a tab bit below average, and someone nicely tells you maybe you should hit up some learning/clear parties till you are more comfortable with the fight. ( just clearing a fight once doesn't mean you are ready for farm parties) They must be a Wow refugee. Someone sees you are struggling a bit in a dungeon and offers you some advice. Ignore it and go on a rant because that person is clearly a Wow refugee, it's not that you can't take constructive criticism/advice it's that they are an elitist Wow refugee. Someone was just a jerk in the party, just be a Wow refugee, and not just a crappy person in general. A Wow refugee killed my dog. Granpa died from throat cancer, damn those Wow refugees for giving it to him. Global economy is in the trash, I heard Wow refugees are behind it...

I never played Wow but I see them blamed for the toxicity in this game all the time. I been playing mmos since 99 with Everquest, every place has its toxic people, same with this game, it has always had some people that are toxic.. There are just some crappy people out there. Also sometimes when person A cries out how person b is being toxic, it really is that person A is misunderstanding something and/or being unreasonable.. but as humans we tend to think our side is correct and hardly stop to see if we may be the one that is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Aomine1992

The healer technically determines the pace since they have to keep the tank alive previously aggro management pointed to the tank being lead but that’s not a thing anymore.

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The overall party controls the pace. Tank holds hate so the healers and DPS don't get attacked, healer heals (while DPSing) so the tank doesn't KO, and DPS do as much damage as possible so that the tanks and healers don't struggle later on after going through all of their CD's (and if they do single target attacks in a big pull, then they make them last longer than they should).

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That isn't an excuse. If you unlock Gunbreaker and skip to 70, the onus remains on you

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This is impossible to do at this point. Nice try though. You cannot skip to 70 on either Dancer or Gunbreaker at this point.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

More WoW "refugees' and less FFXI "refugees."

With it being free to play, and becoming more and more trivial and less and less engaging, these are the types of people who will show up.

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Having played Wow for 10 years and FFXI for 7 I don't know which of the two is worse.

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Originally Posted by Nayout

Having played Wow for 10 years and FFXI for 7 I don't know which of the two is worse.

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The games that the jerks play aren't the reason for them being jerks.

I mean if it's Sastasha or something then Tanks pulling one by one I can understand, but level 30-40-50-ish people should try to pull bigger.

Well, I'm not complaining or anything, I am pretty laissez faire regarding how fast the group proceeds, it's just that yes tank peeps should try to pull bigger at that level range.

Curious question for anyone that has played the game for at least a year: how many encounters with single pack pulling tanks out of those 365 days do you encounter?

Idk about you all but last year, that number couldn't have exceeded over 20 maximum. This over the course of expert and 50-60-70(and now 80) which I regularly used to do. If I had to look back in the last three months, yesterday was my second encounter with a single pack puller.

Now I will admit I haven't stepped in leveling roulette since this year began so obviously, my numbers are quite skewered but still, I'm genuinely curious which kind of roulette this is happening from an apparent regular basis for this type of topic rear its head many times over.

People honestly forget that not everyone is competent in their technical skills. Recently, I introduced my friend to this game and he's a free trial player. This is the first MMO he has ever played, he's an absolute horrid typist and has to look down to see where keys are. I made him stream his game to me on discord while I was the same group with him to introduce him to playing an MMO as he has zero understanding of it. I discouraged him from playing a tank because I know exactly how toxic people are to newbie or bad tanks, he's playing a lancer/dragoon instead.

"Hey, you are going to want to use the tab button to target enemies instead of clicking on them."

"You don't want to use your mouse to click abilities, practice hitting your keybinds I set up for you instead."

"Practice weaving in your, oGCDs in between your GCD abilities."

"You need to upgrade your gear, this here is the vendor that sells gear."

"You need to learn how to move and attack at the same time."

When we think something is "easy" and when it objectively is, it's common for people to forget about empathizing with our fellow humans. It irritates me as well, but I curb my feelings and I always try to politely word things in a manner that won't upset someone else. Too often, if a tank is pulling slowly the DPS will run ahead and pull for the tank or a healer will demand rudely for the tank to pull larger if they aren't doing multiple packs. The next time you decide to start pulling for the sprout tank because he's going to slow or pulling other mobs to the tank to force him to pull larger, why not instead just try politely asking him to change his play style? Because it's a stranger behind a computer monitor we will never meet or interact with again, we too often allow ourselves to be rude when we are slightly irritated. I love this game, and I want new players to also love this game so lets do our best to control our own feelings and treat people with the respect we ourselves would like to be treated with.

I'm going to say something brave yet controversial.
"Toxic" is not the suitable word for someone yelling at other players on a video game. This term is used to try to make it sound more complex, some kind of social or psychological issue when in the end, it's just about people being people (which means people behaving like dicks on the internet / irl).
That was my personal rant.

Back on topic, I'm on the general feeling that "it's just a game", in the broadest sense.
If you're getting mad at someone, yelling at them isn't going to help.
If you are anxious about playing whatever role in FFXIV, why bother? There is enough diverse content in the game to keep you busy for a while. "tanxiety" is not a thing.
If you are anxious about getting into some content like raiding, nothing is preventing you to create a "safer" environment so that experience can be more under control.
If people make you feel uneasy (whether it is because of criticism or behaviour in a broader sense), maybe playing a MMO is not a good idea.
If a tank is single pulling / a healer is not DPSing in your dungeon, you can politely suggest to pull more / DPS more. If they don't, move on with your life.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

I think we just get that it's not worth complaining or ruining someone's day to save 5 minutes in a random dungeon with people we'll never see again?

I mean I get being in top form to clear bleeding-edge content, but a random romp in Brayflox? Really? It's worth ruining the game for a newbie so your ePeen feels better?

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You must be misunderstanding me here. I'm only saying that this wonder of keeping one's mouth shut is not in fact entirely wondrous. It's not without its downfalls, because the act of being ignorant when instilled from the from the roots of casual play has shown evidence of reaching into midcore to especially the endgame play. Though someone may outwardly complain, at least you're receiving some sort of feedback, negative or positive. This is also why the report button exists. Use it when negative complaints cross that threshold. Or as you have done, simply leave, votekick, what have you. The tools are there.

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Also, not sure what you mean by a public server-wide blacklist, never heard of that here in Japan for FFXIV. Is that an American thing? Sounds like a lot of trouble to report on something so mundane.

Or are you talking the endgame community, because yeah that does exist, but it's more about being a crappy person in endgame community/being toxic in general. Not so much about those random bumps in casual play.

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It is a bit mundane, isn't it. It's also a bit exhausting to act innocent of it when we all know what it refers to. Regardless of the context of the game in which it exists, the fact it exists shows that there is a con to this wondrous style of being quiet. Be aware, I'm critiquing both sides of silence and complaining to their own downfalls. Both have their pros and cons. It's simply tiring to hear "this doesn't happen on Japanese servers", JA good, NA bad. It's not a fact you're stating. It's a bias. It's the same tiring theme on EU servers that exists when concerning French players.

Since the start of HW, I also have very rarely seen a group that has been outwardly rude. Complaints, sure, but toxic ? I have no memory of pure toxicity. And save for a few times being on EU servers, I have mainly stayed on NA.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Curious question for anyone that has played the game for at least a year: how many encounters with single pack pulling tanks out of those 365 days do you encounter?

Idk about you all but last year, that number couldn't have exceeded over 20 maximum. This over the course of expert and 50-60-70(and now 80) which I regularly used to do. If I had to look back in the last three months, yesterday was my second encounter with a single pack puller.

Now I will admit I haven't stepped in leveling roulette since this year began so obviously, my numbers are quite skewered but still, I'm genuinely curious which kind of roulette this is happening from an apparent regular basis for this type of topic rear its head many times over.

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I think it's hard for me to weigh in on this specifically, although for different reasons. I often play with at least one friend and the one I do things most commonly with also happens to be an omni-tank main (well, lul WAR but still) so it isn't often I get a pug tank in level capped content.

That being said I did get a single puller in expert the other day (in Anyder of all places, so I didn't even know for sure until after the first boss because of the structure of the beginning of the dungeon) but oof. I'd say it's by far most common in leveling dungeons.

Leveling dungeons totally hit harder than capped ones so I'm not out there demanding full pulls all the time but I do think it's more reasonable to at least be pulling more than one pack (especially if one of the "packs" is just a wandering mob) so that people don't get into the mindset of stopping with each group which is infinitely more annoying in capped content.

So I guess if we include leveling dungeons I see a single puller once every two or three days? Far more than I'd like. Precious few of them are open to (or even seemingly aware of) attempts at communication about it too.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

Point proven. This is exactly why tanking will always be, in every game ever, the least played role. Nothing encourages people more to try a role than being belittled and judged right from the get go.

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Best post ITT and if it wasn't so long I'd keep it as a sig.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Nobody's belittling or judging anyone.

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Says the person calling others scaredy cats and trying to enforce a playstyle they like onto others.

K.

<- Main healer since ARR. I don't mind small pulls, they don't happen often, but where I draw my line is if thats an excuse for the tank to also not use cooldowns at all. Then I usually say something or just leave. Its the same with other jobs too, if I see you single target rotation when I pull 12 things I also say something.

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Originally Posted by Ftail

When we think something is "easy" and when it objectively is, it's common for people to forget about empathizing with our fellow humans.

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Also when we say something is "objectively" easy or hard, most of the time that's bullshit. There's no objective (i.e. independent of any human factors) measure for the hardness of performing some activity; it's always relative to the average skill level of some group of humans. And then there's this thing called the Dunning-Kruger effect which causes us to misestimate what that average is. Someone farming savage might consider themselves only a little better than average and think "this is so easy anyone can clear it if they want", when in reality they're in the top 5% and the majority of player just don't have the skills necessary to clear any synced savage.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

It's 2020 and we're still arguing about tank pulls, huh.

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Well, to be honest, it's been a tough year.

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Originally Posted by tdb

Also when we say something is "objectively" easy or hard, most of the time that's bullshit. There's no objective (i.e. independent of any human factors) measure for the hardness of performing some activity; it's always relative to the average skill level of some group of humans. And then there's this thing called the Dunning-Kruger effect which causes us to misestimate what that average is. Someone farming savage might consider themselves only a little better than average and think "this is so easy anyone can clear it if they want", when in reality they're in the top 5% and the majority of player just don't have the skills necessary to clear any synced savage.

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No one starts the game with the necessary skills to be a decent raider, they're learned over time.

Some people will learn faster, sure, but since paying attention and thinking things through is going to wind up performing well enough that no one will be complaining.

The issue I see with this community is a lack of a desire to improve. People are happy with just not timing out in a dungeon and that's... not okay.

You don't need to have farmed UcoB for every weapon to be perfectly fine at the game, just like... don't settle. Pretty simple.