"Elitism" vs "Casualism"

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

People still listen to what he says? Yeah he's good at the game, but he's the literal textbook example of a Toxic Elitist. Not surprising.

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Not really. He's just very candid, and expects a fair amount of effort from his teammates.

It's more the playerbase is so used to being coddled and hearing honeyed words that pure honesty is like a slap in the face sometimes.

His Twitch chat is 15x worse than anything he has done, and he can't control that.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

Not really. He's just very candid, and expects a fair amount of effort from his teammates.

It's more the playerbase is so used to being coddled and hearing honeyed words that pure honesty is like a slap in the face sometimes.

His Twitch chat is 15x worse than anything he has done, and he can't control that.

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Let's be honest here, this community is so used to coddling and white knighting being the norm that anyone being even remotely blunt is considered 'toxic' to the majority of the the Great Community.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

Not really. He's just very candid, and expects a fair amount of effort from his teammates.

It's more the playerbase is so used to being coddled and hearing honeyed words that pure honesty is like a slap in the face sometimes.

His Twitch chat is 15x worse than anything he has done, and he can't control that.

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I'll quote something Xeno said once that rings true for a lot of people. "I just say what everyone's thinking."

Whenever someone brings up how "toxic" he can he. I'm reminded of the time he spent an hour, on stream, teaching a newbie tank A10S. The key difference was that tank listened, and when he screwed up, owned his mistakes and tried again. What Xeno, and many people in general, lose patience over are people who won't listen. Granted, he's outright admitted he's just not good in learning parties. Hence why he almost never joins them nowadays.

People must be bored. The troll thread posters are coming back.

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Originally Posted by Kamome-chan

No it's not. The moment you sign for a farm party it means you have quite a good understanding of the fight.
Trying to sneak into a farm party while being not good at the fight and probably waste 7 people times shouldn't be met with kindness.

Being upset at player joining farm party while not knowing what to do is not toxic nor elitist.
Wasting people time is however toxic.

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If you expect every player who's trying to farm outdated mounts to know about fflogs and judge their own clears as bad when they've got multiple of them you're being incredibly unrealistic.

Kicking someone from old EX content that basically didn't even have a dps check when it was current then talking a bunch of smack about them when you haven't even given them a chance to play is definitely toxic.

If that drg had reliably done mechanics we could have farmed, as I recall we got someone else a few minutes after the kick but the party disbanded after some misplaced comets. Caring about the color of someone else's parse when you're just trying to get a whistle to drop is pointless, takes looking enough for parties to fill most of them time you're better served just getting in there and getting done clears even if they take an extra 30 seconds.

What we need is Square Enix developers to stop sucking dry FFXIV from monies, and instead of investing them into another failed triple-A FFXV like games, get more devs working on the FFXIV and give us more diversity across the gameplay difficulty.

Right now casual content is super minimal, 1 dungeon per patch, 1 alliance raid every 2-3 patches, some useless crafting stuff and nothing else.
Why not divide raids into 3 separate levels of difficulty, one normal, second hard without enrage and third with enrage?
Why not give us more dungeons, bring old back to live, make them more difficult and give us hard modes for them?

The end game in FFXIV is lackluster and in need of change, i know smaller games with smaller companies running them that do more job managing it than SE ever did.
Thats why elitists are boiling in the same water with casuals, because sooner or later everyone will have only savage raids to do.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

What we need is Square Enix developers to stop sucking dry FFXIV from monies, and instead of investing them into another failed triple-A FFXV like games, get more devs working on the FFXIV and give us more diversity across the gameplay difficulty.

Right now casual content is super minimal, 1 dungeon per patch, 1 alliance raid every 2-3 patches, some useless crafting stuff and nothing else.
Why not divide raids into 3 separate levels of difficulty, one normal, second hard without enrage and third with enrage?
Why not give us more dungeons, bring old back to live, make them more difficult and give us hard modes for them?

The end game in FFXIV is lackluster and in need of change, i know smaller games with smaller companies running them that do more job managing it than SE ever did.
Thats why elitists are boiling in the same water with casuals, because sooner or later everyone will have only savage raids to do.

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Next patch should have the final bad guy and after it no more combat at all and we should only get crafting and gathering quests and content.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

Just going to correct a bunch of things here, point for point.

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This is stunning. I have never read a response that could be more wrong.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

-First of all, once you're a month or more into a tier where people have access to much more gear there is zero excuse to not do uptime strats. It kills the boss faster and it's more efficient. Moreover, if I were to go and do E2S right now and my group didn't skip Quietus and Cycles I would instantly leave that group because such poor performance with how much we outgear that content now is just unacceptable.

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There are numerous reasons people wouldnt use uptime strategies.

1. They arent comfortable with it.
2. Most are more risky.
3. Heavens forbid someone uses a more successful strategy, that involves a higher chance of success.

Success should be the number 1 goal. Not damage.

If a party wipes 15 times trying to do "uptime" but can one shot using a more successful strategy, the "high damage faster uptime" is ... a waste of time.

I dont even know how you people can come up with this type of nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

-If TBN does not break then you have objectively used it incorrectly. A TBN that doesn't break is nothing more than a waste of 3,000 mana and it really is as simple as that. The fact of the matter is that damage is king in XIV, and a non-broken TBN is a direct loss of 500 potency, thus translating to using the skill wrong if it doesn't break.

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The Blackest Night is a mitigation action. Thats literally all it does. If it mitigates any damage, it is not used incorrectly.

Its not a waste of MP if you use it and it mitigates damage. Its literally as simple as that.

You are so horribly wrong its unfathomable.

The skill literally says

Creates a barrier around target that absorbs damage totaling 25% of target's maximum HP.
Duration: 7s
Grants Dark Arts when barrier is completely absorbed.
Dark Arts Effect: Consume Dark Arts instead of MP to execute Edge of Shadow or Flood of Shadow.

That is literally like saying you used Abyssal Drain, but didnt gain any HP is a waste of Abyssal Drain.

That is literally the exact same mind set based on the action descriptions.

Literally exactly the same. Literally based on what you said, or implied, that failing to gain Dark Arts to "save" the MP, and not using the action to its fullest potential is a waste of the action and incorrect usage.

Like seriously thats just wrong.

Description of Abyssal Drain for reference:

Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 200 to target and all enemies nearby it.
Additional Effect: Restores own HP
Cure Potency: 200

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

-Unless the melee/tank player intentionally failing a mechanic to gain uptime results in someone dying or the raid wiping then there is absolutely no reason for said melee/tank player to NOT ignore that mechanic. There are only two times that a mechanical failure actually matters, and those are if it gives a damage down or if the vuln that it would give you will directly translate to your death. Outside of those two specific situations you should absolutely eat the mechanic to gain uptime.
-Yes hello, pugged the entire Eden's Gate savage tier as well as all of my EX clears. I can safely say that I have had nothing but positive results when 'ignoring' mechanics for uptime, when doing uptime strats, and have had nothing but negative results when failing to break TBN.

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If you're happy with based on rankings clear rates, only 100,000 people clearing Shiva, and you're happy with abysmal clear rates, and people leaving parties after 1-2 wipes, and less than .05% of the community clearing fights, then yes, yes what you preach is good solid and sound.

I personally find the success rates of groups absolutely horrid, and I never find it to be the fault of a "casual" but someone who refuses work with the team. Based on everything you said, you refuse to do anything but your way. Which is exactly what is always the problem in pugs. People refusing to adjust and work as a team.

Edit:
You know what, I just read your signature, and you are absolutely disrespectful to the fullest extent. I will no longer be interacting with you. Good day.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Snip.

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See, I can appreciate when someone speaks with sense and responds with respect.

I often will speak sternly, or stress a fact, but I never speak out of experience, or having heard or witnessed something happening.

Does that make everything I always say correct? No but I try my best to be civil, while sharing my thoughts.

Which is not always easy to do, when I'm met with such vile disrespect constantly.

The problem with not only this thread, and ones like it, is now people are acting like "casual" players are the cause of .. something.

I dont even know what the elitist people are trying to say. Except, what I said at the start. That anyone not pulling orange/pink, clearing all of savage week 1, or dont have ultimate clears are now horrible players and then also horrible people.

I watched the video from that other thread, and everyone not only feeds that mindset, and anything that says otherwise, is literally labeled as trolling, or toxic, but also feed that "more damage" is the only way. When... based on clear rates, clearly is not the most successful way.

I cant tell you how many times I have been called a troll, and I am the furthest from it.

How is asking why clear rates are so low, and wanting to improve the success of the community as a whole a troll. While literally harassing players, calling people trolls, calling yourself a "Man" or "god" or whatever other self proclaimed hierarchy, and saying your way is the only way, is not the exact thing youre claiming others of?

I've never seen an "elitist" quit the game or get harassed out of a party by a "casual" but I have seen very often the opposite.

Just a few pages ago I was called a troll for referencing people to look up the situation where a Nico Nico player was harassed by someone parsing.

To me that just shows me parts of this community not only will celebrate disrespect, but even some, will go as far as to attack people who seek teamwork.


So if you could respond on this matter:

How can you be satisfied with the current clear rates of the community. (Less than 200,000 people clearing savage roughly per tier.)
How do you find "casual" people or people who are still learning, somehow intolerable, and the cause of not only failure but toxicity. Especially considering the statements I made above about well known twitch streamers and youtubers celebrating, disrespect?
How do you feel doing uptime strategies is the only way people should do any fight? Especially in situations the success of any given group, specifically less experienced ones, would result in a higher chance for failure, and doing a safer, lower damage strategy would result in more clears?


Edit:
In closing,
You or someone else said "People do not deserve a clear simply because they want to." Thats never was I was trying to imply.

My whole point, which was made in the original post is exactly this. Even you said your group was in the grey parsing groups.
The damage needed to clear savage is not nearly as close as it needs to be to rank even blue.

So if someone who wants to clear, puts in the time. Spends months and months gearing up, learning the fight, and manages to pull only a grey parse, and everyone in their group is on that same level. Just barely manages after all the effort and time they put into it, are no worse of a player or especially not a bad person, as the people who wipe for 18+ hours a day for world first.

You have no idea why someone might struggle with a fight, and having 0 tolerance for someone pulling low numbers even if the groups overall damage is more than sufficient to clear, even if that same person is pulling their jobs minimum, in my opinion leaving at that point, is misuse of parsing, and the exact mentality of why parsing shouldnt be allowed. Now if the group is going to hit enrage and not clear, by all means, leave. But in my opinion leaving just because someone has low damage, is absolutely disrespectful and senseless. You've only now wasted their time, everyone else in the party, as well as your own time. For what reason? Beause you're intolerable and demeaning? But that person is the toxic person? I will never agree to that. Never. Call me a troll, or whatever will make you feel better, its not going to phase me.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

the devs have never given us anything else to try for.

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I have some ideas for you.

How about better consistency.
Higher clear rates for the community.
Smoother, easier runs.


I remember in 2.0, people doing auto attacks to build limit break 3, so they could break Titans heart, because we brought 3 healers into the party, to ensure we would win more often.

Sure it was a little less exciting at the start, but the clear rates were much higher on a party by party basis, than groups not use that strategy.

But... I guess thats just trolling and being toxic. So. Me and others are clearly just horrible horrible people.

Shucks. All the pages of complaining from the last thread will have to be repeated in this one because mods couldn't handle the flood of reports due to (and my point still stands from the last one) everyone being on the same page of:

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...58/866/afa.jpg

That other thread got deleted, eh? I could probably guess who it was that went running to the mods, but no matter.

It's kind of weird how the most casual of the mainstream MMO's has the community that gets the most bent up over casual play. I mean, in most content groups never wipe, so I guess if you want to complain your only option is to get angry when a dungeon that could potentially take 15 minutes ends up taking 20.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

The Blackest Night is a mitigation action. Thats literally all it does.

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Incorrect. TBN is a shield that consumes the same resource that the DRK uses for Edge/Flood of Shadow. At the same time, when properly used (i.e. when it breaks) it grants a Dark Arts proc which allows the DRK to use a single Edge/Flood of Shadow with no mana cost. This makes a properly used TBN a DPS-neutral ability. However, when used incorrectly (i.e. when it doesn't break) it is a DPS loss because you lose out on a cast of Edge/Flood; a direct loss of 500p (or 300p x number of enemies). Unfortunately for you, damage is king in XIV. This means that you don't get to just say that TBN is 'always' correctly used so long as it mitigates damage, and that's simply not how the skill is designed in the first place. Please learn how to properly make use of the job's toolkit before commenting on it.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

Incorrect. TBN is a shield that consumes the same resource that the DRK uses for Edge/Flood of Shadow. At the same time, when properly used (i.e. when it breaks) it grants a Dark Arts proc which allows the DRK to use a single Edge/Flood of Shadow with no mana cost. This makes a properly used TBN a DPS-neutral ability. However, when used incorrectly (i.e. when it doesn't break) it is a DPS loss because you lose out on a cast of Edge/Flood; a direct loss of 500p (or 300p x number of enemies). Unfortunately for you, damage is king in XIV. This means that you don't get to just say that TBN is 'always' correctly used so long as it mitigates damage, and that's simply not how the skill is designed in the first place. Please learn how to properly make use of the job's toolkit before commenting on it.

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This makes it sound like there is no reason to use TBN unless not using it would result in your death, as a healer could just oGCD the damage while you Edge/Flood, instead of the damage being mitigated.

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Originally Posted by Bopsheezi

This makes it sound like there is no reason to use TBN unless not using it would result in your death, as a healer could just oGCD the damage while you Edge/Flood, instead of the damage being mitigated.

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Unless you would otherwise die then there IS no reason to use TBN unless it will get broken.

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Originally Posted by Lucy_Pyre

Unless you would otherwise die then there IS no reason to use TBN unless it will get broken.

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But even if it would break, wouldn't it theoretically be better for damage to just use Edge/Flood up front?

Say you use TBN, and it breaks 2 GCDs after. Now you can use the free Edge after those GCDs. However, if you just use Edge when you would have used TBN, you get that Edge before the GCDs, possibly shortening the fight a GCD or two?

In both situations, you don't die, from mitigation in the first, and a healer oGCD in the second, but couldn't the fight end a bit faster theoretically in the second?

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Originally Posted by Bopsheezi

This makes it sound like there is no reason to use TBN unless not using it would result in your death, as a healer could just oGCD the damage while you Edge/Flood, instead of the damage being mitigated.

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Good mitigation is a key part of what makes only using oGCDs viable. TBN also has circumstances under which it's a DPS positive, as you can use it under certain circumstances to buffer an additional edge/flood into a party buff window.

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Originally Posted by Bopsheezi

This makes it sound like there is no reason to use TBN unless not using it would result in your death, as a healer could just oGCD the damage while you Edge/Flood, instead of the damage being mitigated.

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Using TBN in a situation where you know it would break essentially makes it free, so it'll spare the healer from needing to oGCD you. So, basically if you know TBN will break there's never a reason not to use it.

It's obviously not pointless if it doesn't break, though, it's just not optimal. Mitigating some damage always serves a purpose. You sacrifice some of your own potency, sure, but it allows the healer to focus on other things; like maybe keeping a DPS who's constantly eating avoidable damage alive.

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Originally Posted by Bopsheezi

But even if it would break, wouldn't it theoretically be better for damage to just use Edge/Flood up front?

Say you use TBN, and it breaks 2 GCDs after. Now you can use the free Edge after those GCDs. However, if you just use Edge when you would have used TBN, you get that Edge before the GCDs, possibly shortening the fight a GCD or two?

In both situations, you don't die, from mitigation in the first, and a healer oGCD in the second, but couldn't the fight end a bit faster theoretically in the second?

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The fact that you have to be constantly sitting on 3000MP instead of using it because of TBN is an upfront DPS loss, but that's not avoidable. The cost to the group if you don't always have resources earmarked for TBN is greater than the cost to your personal DPS.

I guess if the healer is good enough to keep you, and everyone else, alive with oGCD heals when you're not using TBN at all, then there's no reason for you to ever use TBN. If the healer is forced to hardcast or GCD any heal to keep you alive because you aren't using TBN, however, then it's costing the healer some damage potency each time.

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Originally Posted by Bopsheezi

But even if it would break, wouldn't it theoretically be better for damage to just use Edge/Flood up front?

Say you use TBN, and it breaks 2 GCDs after. Now you can use the free Edge after those GCDs. However, if you just use Edge when you would have used TBN, you get that Edge before the GCDs, possibly shortening the fight a GCD or two?

In both situations, you don't die, from mitigation in the first, and a healer oGCD in the second, but couldn't the fight end a bit faster theoretically in the second?

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No, it wouldn't. Because with a Dark Arts proc you can 'store' a use of Edge/Flood. You can then get back to very nearly max mana in your 60s downtime in between Blood Weapon uses. Then, when Blood Weapon comes back up (along with 2 minute raid buffs with it), you have just shy of a max mana pool as well as an extra use of Edge due to Dark Arts. This allows you to dump both DA and your mana for, if my memory is correct, 5 Edge uses under raid buffs: thus being a DPS gain.

If TBN doesn't break then you didn't need to use it. If it was supposed to be used as mitigation only then it wouldn't have the extra effect. It's good to use sometimes if you know it will break so you can "bank" a free Edge/Flood to save for buff windows.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

This is stunning. I have never read a response that could be more wrong.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

The Blackest Night is a mitigation action. Thats literally all it does. If it mitigates any damage, it is not used incorrectly.

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Found one. Didnt take long at all.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

That other thread got deleted, eh? I could probably guess who it was that went running to the mods, but no matter.

It's kind of weird how the most casual of the mainstream MMO's has the community that gets the most bent up over casual play. I mean, in most content groups never wipe, so I guess if you want to complain your only option is to get angry when a dungeon that could potentially take 15 minutes ends up taking 20.

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Look at this absolute hero complaining about not being able to run in pedantic circles in another thread here.

Its okay buddy, I'm sure you're full of plenty more wrong opinions that we will get to laugh at and poke tons of holes in - just give it time!

Oh.

Oh, you're literally already here doing the same thing.

No one cares specifically about a dungeon taking 5 more minutes, people care about other players not respecting their time. It shouldn't need to take 5 more minutes but some players want to play as ice mage or songless bards or RP pacifist healers and here we are.

The casuals (who behave in such ways, not all of them obviously) need to reign it in. If you want a game where you just press random buttons and win go find one that doesn't also inconvenience a bunch of other people in the process.

You guys are also forgetting situations such as in UCob where you can bank an edge of shadow right before twintania goes down to gain an extra damage OGCD once nael falls down thus gaining a slight amount of damage on her. it's a small dps transference from one boss to another, but considering nael is 5X more annoying to fight every little bit helps.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Look at this absolute hero complaining about not being able to run in pedantic circles in another thread here.

Its okay buddy, I'm sure you're full of plenty more wrong opinions that we will get to laugh at and poke tons of holes in - just give it time!

Oh.

Oh, you're literally already here doing the same thing.

No one cares specifically about a dungeon taking 5 more minutes, people care about other players not respecting their time. It shouldn't need to take 5 more minutes but some players want to play as ice mage or songless bards or RP pacifist healers and here we are.

The casuals (who behave in such ways, not all of them obviously) need to reign it in. If you want a game where you just press random buttons and win go find one that doesn't also inconvenience a bunch of other people in the process.

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"No one cares about a dungeon taking 5 more minutes; they just care that dungeons are taking 5 more minutes becuz respect my time!" Songless Bards; damageless healers; it doesn't make a real difference. 5 minutes is nothing; you waste more time whining and picking fights about it than you would by just finishing the damn run.

So you're mad because you think they're not respecting your time; not because these things are an ACTUAL problem. People are getting through roulettes just fine; EASILY even, despite the fact that some people coast through them. If you take this content THAT seriously then stop running it with randoms. The only minor waste of time that annoys me in roulettes is when people like you hold the group up by picking a fight with someone who isn't trying hard enough for you. Unless we're actually struggling keep the backseat driving to yourself and let the run proceed.

Personally, the only people I try and help are the ones that can't even string a basic combo together. No, True Thrust, Piercing Talon, Chaos Thrust, Disembowel etc. is no a real combo, or even a sensible rotation. There is clearly no thought put into the choice of abilities used as they come out seemingly at random. Just improving this to True > Disembowel > Chaos > True > Vorpal > Full > repeat is miles better than whatever buttons they were randomly pressing before and this is what I think most people are trying to stop. A basic GCD rotation with suboptimal oGCD use (by suboptimal I mean not using things on cooldown, miss-aligning buffs etc.) is all that is needed for dungeons.

The problem is, the people who do the random button presses seem to think the people giving them advice on how to play their job are rude/annoying etc. when they are just trying to, hopefully, make the game more fun and potentially make them realise those solo duties that seem to take forever are now taking far less time to complete. They also see it as them trying to tell them to do the 100% optimal rotation required for savage/ultimate raids, which again, is not the case.

So, in my opinion at least, the issue stems from the bottom. Players not willing to put in even a sliver of effort and when given advice they treat it as hostile and they feel attacked, rather than taking the advice, trying it out and seeing what happens. Could advice be given in a better way? hard to say. People react to things differently, whilst some prefer the sugar coated approach, some prefer more direct advice that is easier to read and digest. they also need to realise noone is asking for a 100% optimal rotation, but just the basics for the job is fine.

Note, that was for dungeons. It should go without saying that extreme and above content requires much more knowledge in performing your job optimally, so you should already be able to do that before entering. You should be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

"No one cares about a dungeon taking 5 more minutes; they just care that dungeons are taking 5 more minutes becuz respect my time!" Songless Bards; damageless healers; it doesn't make a real difference. 5 minutes is nothing; you waste more time whining and picking fights about it than you would by just finishing the damn run.

So you're mad because you think they're not respecting your time; not because these things are an ACTUAL problem. People are getting through roulettes just fine; EASILY even, despite the fact that some people coast through them. If you take this content THAT seriously then stop running it with randoms. The only minor waste of time that annoys me in roulettes is when people like you hold the group up by picking a fight with someone who isn't trying hard enough for you. Unless we're actually struggling keep the backseat driving to yourself and let the run proceed.

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You're the one coming up with the 5 minutes thing in the first place. Nobody cares about spending more time in dungeons it's the reason why we have to that matter.

If I'm in Prae with fresh 50 with job quest gear I won't complain about Prae taking longer but If it's because some are afk I won't stand idly by.

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Originally Posted by Kamome-chan

You're the one coming up with the 5 minutes thing in the first place. Nobody cares about spending more time in dungeons it's the reason why we have to that matter.

If I'm in Prae with fresh 50 with job quest gear I won't complain about Prae taking longer but If it's because some are afk I won't stand idly by.

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Vote kick exists for AFK; and if it's multiple people AFKing then either finish it anyways, leave and/or report them. Just don't start whining in chat; it doesn't help.

Now if a roulette is going perfectly fine, but you notice the healer isn't DPSing, Bard isn't using songs; Ninja's not keeping Huton up; etc. just let it go. Honestly, the most annoying thing in roulettes isn't some people occasionally being lazy, it's the tryhard, backseat driving whiners who pick fights in them with "respect muh time!" as their justification.

I've always thought it was odd that wanting a healer to do something more, as in, not just standing still and doing nothing is considered "tryhard". Especially when doing DPS as a healer is like 2 skills.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I've always thought it was odd that wanting a healer to do something more, as in, not just standing still and doing nothing is considered "tryhard". Especially when doing DPS as a healer is like 2 skills.

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If the run is going completely fine regardless, but you need to start a fight about it anyways because "ZOMG the disrespect of making my run take a few minutes longer!" then imo you're more of a problem than that healer is.

Sometimes people get a little lazy in ridiculously easy content. It's not worth picking at people and starting fights over; people who do that are just annoying.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Now if a roulette is going perfectly fine, but you notice the healer isn't DPSing, Bard isn't using songs; Ninja's not keeping Huton up; etc. just let it go. Honestly, the most annoying thing in roulettes isn't some people occasionally being lazy, it's the tryhard, backseat driving whiners who pick fights in them with "respect muh time!" as their justification.

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A healer not DPSing isn't on the same level as a ninja not using Huton or a Bard not using songs. A healer not DPSing in a dungeon, in most cases, is someone who is just standing there doing nothing for a large chunk of the run.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

If the run is going completely fine regardless, but you need to start a fight about it anyways because "ZOMG the disrespect of making my run take a few minutes longer!" then imo you're more of a problem than that healer is.

Sometimes people get a little lazy in ridiculously easy content. It's not worth picking at people and starting fights over; people who do that are just annoying.

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Hence why I won't Vote Kick them instead. I'm sorry but a Bard not playing songs utterly destroys their DPS. We're talking putting them at below tank and healer levels which is absurd in Expert Roulette. It isn't just about "muh time!" but the principle of it. You wanna be lazy to that extent? Queue with friends who aren't going to care not with randoms who just want to get things done.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

A healer not DPSing isn't on the same level as a ninja not using Huton or a Bard not using songs. A healer not DPSing in a dungeon, in most cases, is someone who is just standing there doing nothing for a large chunk of the run.

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A healer not DPSing is lazier, but still barely matters. I'm only interested in getting through the run, and as long as the healer is healing people we'll still breeze through any and all roulette content.

If you literally can't live with yourself unless you direct a little tantrum at the healer for this indiscretion, then track him down after the run and argue with him all day if you want.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

A healer not DPSing is lazier, but still barely matters. I'm only interested in getting through the run, and as long as the healer is healing people we'll still breeze through any and all roulette content.

If you literally can't live with yourself unless you direct a little tantrum at the healer for this indiscretion, then track him down after the run and argue with him all day if you want.

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Let me just start by saying I'm incredibly patient player and will stick out awful runs unless the group disbands on its own. Your added snark about not being able to live with myself on slow runs and having tantrums is unnecessary and a stretch.

I am aware that comfort levels and skill will vary greatly between players, and I've never expected top-tier skill from anyone when running dungeons, however people should at least try and do what they can. If someone knows how to DPS as a healer, but simply aren't because they don't feel like it, they are being flat-out lazy. Intentionally being lazy during a run and expecting others to pick up the slack is rude to boot.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Let me just start by saying I'm incredibly patient player and will stick out awful runs unless the group disbands on its own. Your added snark about not being able to live with myself on slow runs and having tantrums is unnecessary and a stretch.

I am aware that comfort levels and skill will vary greatly between players, and I've never expected top-tier skill from anyone when running dungeons, however people should at least try and do what they can. If someone knows how to DPS as a healer, but simply aren't because they don't feel like it, they are being flat-out lazy. Intentionally being lazy during a run and expecting others to pick up the slack is rude to boot.

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I apologize for the snark; there are a handful of people here I altercate with regularly who deserve it, but you're probably not one of them. ;)

Is being intentionally lazy a little rude? Sure. Honestly, if you vote kicked and the group agreed they don't want to put up with it then that's fine. Don't pick a fight in chat like most people do, though; it's just annoying and it wastes time.

I don't see how it could waste time if the healer is already just standing still and doing nothing. :confused:

lol watching the FF14 community talk about this stuff compared to other MMO's is so dramatically different on the scale of funny. Wish I could get across to people the pure gem of an MMO you have right now.

Difference between a casual player and an elite player is they might not have the most optimal rotation and a regular competent static. Gear is an illusion that casuals dream about and elite players do not even think about as a factor.

If someone has bad DPS in FF14 or tanks a boss incorrectly in FF14 it is just a matter of explaining to that dps the correct rotation or running the tank through the mechanics and indicators to look for. People seriously need to understand how vastly different this is to this MMO's main competition right now on how simple it is to close the gap.

Just enjoy the game guys and if someone is very rude in a dungeon or raid then make them understand that is not how the FF14 community roles.

Honestly, people who only analyze logs in terms of ranking parse are the real casuals, because it doesn't really bring any relevant information.

If you have 100 statics running any given savage floor with 100 jobs of the same class, then no matter their DPS or skill level, there will be people parsing in any color. The metric people need to take a look at isn't the ranking and the color of the parse, it is the individual DPS of each player in regard to the average DPS required per player to clear any given floor. Also, the interesting information is the average DPS in any given floor for a given ILVL for a job, because it can help determine if there is some margin of progression that a player can attain.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

A healer not DPSing in a dungeon, in most cases, is someone who is just standing there doing nothing for a large chunk of the run.

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"Standing there doing nothing". Hmm, so they're not even healing either? And a healer necessarily doesn't have to DPS. They're more focused on keeping everyone alive rather than DPS'ing. The only time a healer should DPS is if the healer is confident in the tank and party members not dying. There was a thread on this concerning healers dps'ing.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-Healer-Damage

My reply was - "I don't mind it when healers do damage. The main point of this all is when these "Healer's" think they are a DPS. They spend more time trying to DPS than healing which results in people dying which then causes a wipe. Iv'e seen it happen, healer's get into DPS'ing to much and don't heal and people die. Which causes of course, longer runs."

As for Healers intentionally not DPS'ing = rudeness? To me, no. They are healer's. The time that you will save from running the dungeon is very miniscule if a healer DPS's. So no, no one has to "Pick up the slack" for the healer.

I will never forget that me and some others got called toxic raider elitists because...

we wiped about 3 times on Thundergod Cid (was when it was relevant so a while ago) and we wanted everybody to pay attention.
Yes, we only wanted that people pay attention. I don't care who does much dps and who doesn't honestly, all i want is to not wipe because people can't be bothered to pay even a little bit of attention.

Most people were trying so we didn't want to abandon it but those who didn't managed to pull their entire alliances down multiple times.

Being casual is one thing, but hiding behind just plain out not wanting to play the game because "insert reason here" is not okay. If i'm too tired from work, i don't play.
If you want to watch netflix or do whatever while running content that can and will kill you, then i'd also suggest not playing the game.

I do kind of hate HAVING to carry people that refuse to play the game even a little bit

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

"Standing there doing nothing". Hmm, so they're not even healing either? And a healer necessarily doesn't have to DPS. They're more focused on keeping everyone alive rather than DPS'ing. The only time a healer should DPS is if the healer is confident in the tank and party members not dying. There was a thread on this concerning healers dps'ing.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-Healer-Damage

My reply was - "I don't mind it when healers do damage. The main point of this all is when these "Healer's" think they are a DPS. They spend more time trying to DPS than healing which results in people dying which then causes a wipe. Iv'e seen it happen, healer's get into DPS'ing to much and don't heal and people die. Which causes of course, longer runs."

As for Healers intentionally not DPS'ing = rudeness? To me, no. They are healer's. The time that you will save from running the dungeon is very miniscule if a healer DPS's. So no, no one has to "Pick up the slack" for the healer.

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Yes, if a healer is doing nothing outside of casting heals in a dungeon, there is a strong chance they are going to have a lot of downtime on their hands. There will always be exceptions to this, people may not be comfortable in the role yet, or perhaps they are being extra cautious as they don't know the dungeon/fight well enough and don't want to be stuck mid-cast when massive damage hits, but once you get the hang of things you'll find that a good portion of normal content doesn't require non-stop heals.

As I said earlier, if you're going to group up with people, you should at least try to do the best you can, whatever that may be. If a healer is competent enough to be able to DPS, but simply doesn't because they just don't feel like it, that's where I start having an issue. If I have something in my kit that would be beneficial to the group, I'm going to use it if I can and I would hope that others would as well.