Can we please get aggro management back?

Honestly, I'm still not sure WHY we have tank stances anymore. I kind of thought that we'd just have them completely removed and just have our DPS combos. Since we're tanks with blue icons, I'd actually prefer if tank stance was gone completely and moved into the trait section and we just use shirk with secondary tanks as needed or necessary. But then again, this wouldn't work well with alliance raids and 6 tanks trying to e-peen their way to MT lol. So I'm not sure how this would work :/

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Originally Posted by Derby_Crash

Holding aggro doesn't mean much anymore nowadays. I'd like to return to having both a tank stance or dps stance, and actually having to pay attention to the aggro list, instead of just popping tank stance and forgetting about it. What does everyone else think? Should we go back to a similar tanking system that Stormblood had?

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When did holding aggro mean anything other then the Tank is doing their job?
I think personally its better that we have the Fire and Forget Tank stance of Shadowbringers, this way that Precious DPS that Tanks lost back in the day isn't lost and they dont need to Stance Dance. And then we dont need to worry about "Bad Tanks" not being able to hold aggro because DPSs are pulling more Aggro then the tank.
Its probly because I dont have a deep background in other MMOs, but I think its a silly concept to tell a DPS to Stop DPSing so the tank can get back their aggro. And I also think its kinda silly to expect DPS and Healers to have Aggroo mitigation and not give Tanks any additional Aggro Generation, so it makes it everyone elses job to do the Tanks job and hold aggro.
Its probably a personal take, but I think thats just a bad design concept.

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I don't know what to tell you other than you had shit tanks

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Yes, that was my point. Too many people in DF wanted to play them like they were DPS with tank queue times. Warriors were inexplicably especially guilty of this; it got to the point where I started to dread ending up with a WAR "tank" in roulette dungeons.

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or weren't pressing quelling strikes.

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Quelling Strikes wasn't available to every non-tank nor did it have a cd short enough to be available for every pull in a dungeon.

Additionally, I lost count of how many of these "DPS tanks" tried to tell me or others to "just pop quelling" or whatever after letting one of us die, instead of admitting their fault. Uhh, no, how about you stop being terrible at tanking, instead? Nobody cares about your max damage; any "remotely competent" DPS will be outdamaging you regardless.

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As for healers DPSing, uh - yeah. Like 80% of your GCDs in everything but ultimate or Floor 3 savage fights are probably gonna be Broil 3. This is because of how predictable the damage in-take in FFXIV is, and how they've done nothing but provide us healers with OGCD healing tools that are obscenely powerful.

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Except that wasn't what I asked. Let's try this again -- would you still be okay with that healer spamming Broil endlessly if it meant they didn't adequately perform their actual role, and let people die? Or would you be telling him to go as a DPS instead?

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

Honestly, I'm still not sure WHY we have tank stances anymore.

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At this point I think we can view the necessity as like "Who is the Main Tank"
Not sure about others, but Ive been in so many groups where people dont know who the MT is. So the Indicator is good to me to identify that.

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Originally Posted by Elkanah

But then again, this wouldn't work well with alliance raids and 6 tanks trying to e-peen their way to MT lol. So I'm not sure how this would work :/

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Alliance raids have only 3 tanks nowadays, one per group. Still a constant aggro yo-yo though, yeah.

As for the topic, please no. As some others said, wannabe dpses with a blue icon wasn't fun at all for the rest of the party, especially as a healer. And it wasn't even just an aggro management matter, the tank stance also gave more defense or something, so the dps-stance-only tanks (who tbh were the same ones who use no or very few defensive cd) were also paper tank and a nightmare to keep alive.
And going back to using things like Flash, no thanks.

SB threat was as useless as it was, because they gave us the shiney new Shirk ability, that ruined all need for threat control. (It also didnt help we had such a terrible Provoke system, and sorta still do, which is why we ended up with shirk as a bandaid fix. But dont get me wrong, shirk is a fun tool, but it ruined threat management.)
IMO, the 2nd cause for the loss of threat management, was the increase in DPS AoEs, and mass pulling, but this is a very distant second place issue. MMOs should only give AoE to very few scenarios, such as threat, and healing. Almost never in DPS. Otherwise you over simplify content, even with "complex AoE rotations".

Think you are onto a losing battle with anything that implies 'depth' or 'effort' anymore. Sorry to rain on the parade but the modern collective mmo community just can't handle the brain power. Instant gratification, speed and hollow meaningless rewards and participation prizes are the name of the game. If the Japanese forums are anything to go by, expect more pruning in future as apposed to less.

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Think you are onto a losing battle with anything that implies 'depth' or 'effort' anymore. Sorry to rain on the parade but the modern collective mmo community just can't handle the brain power. Instant gratification, speed and hollow meaningless rewards and participation prizes are the name of the game. If the Japanese forums are anything to go by, expect more pruning in future as apposed to less.

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You sound fun to have around.

rather not tbh

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

Threat was already nearly entirely vestigial come Stormblood. You pulled with tank stance and did maybe one or two threat comboes and then you went full dps mode.

Tanks stances were just something SE had an idea for, and it literally never worked out like they wanted it to.

The only time threat mattered is on openers where people forgot to use diversion(Which really isn't that interesting of a gameplay addition), or on aggro resets(In which Exdeath murders the white mage) where you throw a shield lob or equivalent and proceed as normal.

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BLM had to use Diversion on cooldown.

Inb4 "no they didn't" thus revealing they didnt play it well.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

BLM had to use Diversion on cooldown.

Inb4 "no they didn't" thus revealing they didnt play it well.

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I remember RDM opener had to use Diversion too, otherwise you'd get a few slaps in the face. Arguably SMN too. Bard opener was stupid to handle with Refresh and Tactician.
I "enjoyed" avec to keep these things in mind as a DPS or even a healer with Lucid Dreaming. Not because it was fun, but it was something to micro-manage. Now there's nothing more to rotation DPS, which would do with extra things like agro micro-management (or MP refresh, that kind of stuff).

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

BLM had to use Diversion on cooldown.

Inb4 "no they didn't" thus revealing they didnt play it well.

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Diversion on cooldown, and still watch the bars so you could lucid dump when you got too close to the tanks aggro level(and it was almost always when, not if - it was inevitable as long as you didnt die). Luckily lucid doesnt have any other uses for BLM.

I just want Cover to be useful again :(

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Originally Posted by Derby_Crash

Yeah, I agree that the threat system in Stormblood (and you can even argue throughout FFXIV) was flawed, but I'd gladly take what Stormblood had over just pushing one button and forgetting about it. At least there was SOMETHING. And not to mention the other effects the tank stances had, such as Warrior's increased health and health restoration from magic or Paladin's 20% or something damage received down.

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I agree with this one, the game already feels far too easy with the simplified dungeons and inconsequential areas. The jobs themselves have all gotten very easy over the years. Can’t wait for 6.0 where rotations are reduced to single buttons and 7.0 having Auto-Quest mode like those god awful mobile games and 8.0 just being a movie

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Originally Posted by Derby_Crash

Yeah, I agree that the threat system in Stormblood (and you can even argue throughout FFXIV) was flawed, but I'd gladly take what Stormblood had over just pushing one button and forgetting about it. At least there was SOMETHING. And not to mention the other effects the tank stances had, such as Warrior's increased health and health restoration from magic or Paladin's 20% or something damage received down.

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i personally prefer the current system over the one where the responsivility of tank managing agro is shoved to the other roles because mah dps!

I thought threat management was all about punching things and then begging the healer to not let you die as you over pull an entire hallway from being used to endgame levels of gear. To be frank, I think the tanks need a little tweaking because paladin feels like the DOT needs to be a cooldown and the spell combo should be used when rampart is up, so you end up with something like X-1-2-3-ctrl+1-ctrl+2-ctrl+3 1-2-3-1-2-3-ctrl+1-ctrl+2-ctrl+3-X.

The reason the paladin needs to be like that is that unlike a dps they need to have spaces 4-5-6 and CTRL+4 CTRL+5 CTRL+6 for the stuff that is on cooldown but needs to be used rather frequently. This is to prevent RSI when playing the game since a lot of hand stretching leads to harming the hand. I tried playing with a restriction brace and using things like Gunbreaker was absolute torture.

Oh gods though is PVP way too simplified with the one button combo...

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Yes, that was my point. Too many people in DF wanted to play them like they were DPS with tank queue times. Warriors were inexplicably especially guilty of this; it got to the point where I started to dread ending up with a WAR "tank" in roulette dungeons.

Quelling Strikes wasn't available to every non-tank nor did it have a cd short enough to be available for every pull in a dungeon.

Additionally, I lost count of how many of these "DPS tanks" tried to tell me or others to "just pop quelling" or whatever after letting one of us die, instead of admitting their fault. Uhh, no, how about you stop being terrible at tanking, instead? Nobody cares about your max damage; any "remotely competent" DPS will be outdamaging you regardless.

Except that wasn't what I asked. Let's try this again -- would you still be okay with that healer spamming Broil endlessly if it meant they didn't adequately perform their actual role, and let people die? Or would you be telling him to go as a DPS instead?

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You are still saying we should not add threat management because of bad players. That seems silly.

You people really like staring at lists, don't you? If that's fun for you then play a healer, but the LAST thing I want added to tanking is having constantly pull my attention away from the action to stare at that boring enmity list.

I wouldn't mind having a more difficult DPS rotation, or having my mitigation CDs be more life or death if I don't use them correctly, but why do MMO communities always default to the absolute most boring possible solutions to making things more "engaging?"

Threat Management is a weird one for me because I do feel the concept sounds good on paper but never really found it satisfying in game. It always ended up feeling very mechanical to me in that there were just specific times and places where you would use either an aggro generator or an aggro dump so it didn't really end up having a tactical use as much as it just became part of your basic skill rotation like any other buff or debuff. It was always like "Okay, I'm going to use my big damage combo now so I need to use my skill that reduces aggro for the next 10 seconds" or "Okay, the party is going to be outputting big damage now, I have to put on tank stance and generate aggro for a while until they're done" as specifically dictated by the fight mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

You people really like staring at lists, don't you? If that's fun for you then play a healer, but the LAST thing I want added to tanking is having constantly pull my attention away from the action to stare at that boring enmity list.

I wouldn't mind having a more difficult DPS rotation, or having my mitigation CDs be more life or death if I don't use them correctly, but why do MMO communities always default to the absolute most boring possible solutions to making things more "engaging?"

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Personally, I don't think I ever had to stare at the enmity list during my time as tanking even back when Warriors could use Flash as an enmity increaser. Typically, when I see an enemy chomping on the healer's face, it was a good clue that I didn't have that enemy's attention. But I like the idea of a more complex DPS rotation (not difficult, but something that requires basic comprehension skills. Not just 1-2-3 with a special 4 thrown in when ready); with kind of a "consequence" for not doing the combo correctly like reduced enmity. Just an idea with too many variables however.

Honestly--and this going against popular opinion--I really don't mind aggro as it is now. As mentioned before, when Warriors could use Flash, aggro management was a nightmare for me, especially in lower dungeons; always fighting against the high-geared player who could just fart in the general direction of the enemy to immediately tick it off.

Even as simple as aggro management is now, I still find myself with tanks who struggle with maintaining aggro for a variety of reasons; making it more complex or bringing back stances would most likely have a more negative effect than a positive one for your daily tank (just imo however).

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You are still saying we should not add threat management because of bad players. That seems silly.

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Well, there's also the fact I don't feel it adds that much to the game anyway, now that you bring that up.

But even besides that, are you going to say what makes the argument silly, or are we just supposed to take your word for it? A lot of people ARE bad players, and "DPS" tanks (very commonplace, because of the prevailing attitude of "everyone do as much damage as humanly possible, gotta go fast") are just one of those things that made threat management awful for everyone else to have to deal with.

Tanks didn't need to get Shirk as an ability last expansion; they were practically already managing it without needing an ability specifically named for it. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Xau

i personally prefer the current system over the one where the responsivility of tank managing agro is shoved to the other roles because mah dps!

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I mean...that is the job of a dps though; to pump out as much dps as possible. I had more issues with "mah dps" from tanks back in Heavensward when STR accessories were a thing and tanks who absolutely REFUSED to turn on Tanks Stance, because DPS Stance was so much better....until we all died.

There was enmity reducers back then, yes, but if the tank actively refused to use the tools provided themselves, then I don't blame the other players for not using their's as well.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

You people really like staring at lists, don't you? If that's fun for you then play a healer, but the LAST thing I want added to tanking is having constantly pull my attention away from the action to stare at that boring enmity list.

I wouldn't mind having a more difficult DPS rotation, or having my mitigation CDs be more life or death if I don't use them correctly, but why do MMO communities always default to the absolute most boring possible solutions to making things more "engaging?"

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As a tank I have never had to stare at the enmity list. Though granted I am sure you were just exaggerating. I would also like for more complex rotations, and more active mitigation. Though I would also like my enmity management to also matter.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Well, there's also the fact I don't feel it adds that much to the game anyway, now that you bring that up.

But even besides that, are you going to say what makes the argument silly, or are we just supposed to take your word for it? A lot of people ARE bad players, and "DPS" tanks (very commonplace, because of the prevailing attitude of "everyone do as much damage as humanly possible, gotta go fast") are just one of those things that made threat management awful for everyone else to have to deal with.

Tanks didn't need to get Shirk as an ability last expansion; they were practically already managing it without needing an ability specifically for it.

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I mean if you do not enjoy threat management who am I to say why you should, but in my opinion not adding x because of bad players seems awfully silly. Bottom top balance has never been my cup of tea.

At the end of the day it is clear you have your bias as do I. Nothing I or anyone else can say will sway your view because you have already shown you have a negative stimga towards dps tanks, and the meta surrounding it.

That is the thing about game systems for one person it might be a drag for another it could be a blast. I enjoyed DA spam, I enjoyed old cleric stance, hell I loved all stages of eureka. People have different tastes and that is fine, but I do find it odd that people can be against something because of others so to speak. Players will be bad, I do think we should balance the game around bad players. Run into a bad player give them the boot and move on, do not waste your time with them.

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Originally Posted by TyrTry

Personally, I don't think I ever had to stare at the enmity list during my time as tanking even back when Warriors could use Flash as an enmity increaser. Typically, when I see an enemy chomping on the healer's face, it was a good clue that I didn't have that enemy's attention. But I like the idea of a more complex DPS rotation (not difficult, but something that requires basic comprehension skills. Not just 1-2-3 with a special 4 thrown in when ready); with kind of a "consequence" for not doing the combo correctly like reduced enmity. Just an idea with too many variables however.

Honestly--and this going against popular opinion--I really don't mind aggro as it is now. As mentioned before, when Warriors could use Flash, aggro management was a nightmare for me, especially in lower dungeons; always fighting against the high-geared player who could just fart in the general direction of the enemy to immediately tick it off.

Even as simple as aggro management is now, I still find myself with tanks who struggle with maintaining aggro for a variety of reasons; making it more complex or bringing back stances would most likely have a more negative effect than a positive one for your daily tank (just imo however).

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I wasn't really around when aggro management was more of a thing in this game, but when I played WoW way back it was just tedious. I suppose if you run with good groups that keep thing predictable you didn't have to focus on an aggro list, but in pugs and randoms people will randomly not use their aggro dumps, pop all CDs and unload at bad times, etc. so you're just going back and forth looking at the list making sure you're at the top.

It's the same way healing works here. In a good group it's whatever; in randoms people are getting hit by avoidable mechanics, cleaves, etc. constantly, so you're always half looking at the list half at the fight. That's not really avoidable with healing, which is one reason I imagine healing is so unpopular. There's NO REASON to turn tanking into that with aggro management, though. If I end up staring at a list, just so I can press a button to change stances if the little symbols change color then screw it, I'll play DPS. That's not fun or engaging, I don't know why anyone here would want that.

Kinda a tangent, but Come to think of it. I noticed that in Stromblood and beyond all accs are locked to their proper class. I wonder if the use of STR accs was the cause?

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Kinda a tangent, but Come to think of it. I noticed that in Stromblood and beyond all accs are locked to their proper class. I wonder if the use of STR accs was the cause?

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It definitely was. They specifically said so.

Stormblood proved that tanks had little interest in using the emnity tools they had and preferred to push that responsibility off to everyone else in the team. Stormblood also proved that DPS and healers didn't want to use those tools, justifying it with the argument that agro management is the primary responsibility of the tank.

So if you're the game developer, you had two choices. Continue to double down on the system that has caused a lot of community bickering for four-six years, and to a degree scared people off from playing a tanking job entirely (because no one will let you sit in tank stance while you're still learning when it's safe to turn it off) or just abandon the mechanic, eliminate agro management, and let tanks do full damage all the time.

If only from the perspective that there's at least a little less bickering between players, the current system is superior.

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Originally Posted by Adeacia

Back when aggro management was "Turn on tank stance, use your aggro combo once, turn off tank stance and use dps rotation only for the rest of the fight." When everyone is told to play like that, its no wonder things ended up as they did. Players complain about problems that they themselves created.

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XIV having done the concept no justice before doesn't mean the concept itself is irredeemably flawed. It just means XIV once again browned the bed.

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Originally Posted by TyrTry

I mean...that is the job of a dps though; to pump out as much dps as possible. I had more issues with "mah dps" from tanks back in Heavensward when STR accessories were a thing and tanks who absolutely REFUSED to turn on Tanks Stance, because DPS Stance was so much better....until we all died.

There was enmity reducers back then, yes, but if the tank actively refused to use the tools provided themselves, then I don't blame the other players for not using their's as well.

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That's a poor argument. Those aggro tools on DPS cost them nothing whereas Tank Stance was a massively DPS loss. In fact, Tank Stance was so bad, it was a raid DPS loss to turn it on instead of having Monk use Purification; keeping in mind Purification was linked to Forbidden Charka. So in other words, Monk giving up a 300+ potency attack (whatever it was back then) was less of a loss than forcing a Dark Knight to turn on Grit and do a Power Slash combo.

Of course tanks did far more damage back than relative to the DPS. So while that would no longer be the case in Shadowbringers, it still speaks volumes on how poorly thought out Tank Stance was and why tanks never wanted to use it.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

That's a poor argument. Those aggro tools on DPS cost them nothing whereas Tank Stance was a massively DPS loss. In fact, Tank Stance was so bad, it was a raid DPS loss to turn it on instead of having Monk use Purification; keeping in mind Purification was linked to Forbidden Charka. So in other words, Monk giving up a 300+ potency attack (whatever it was back then) was less of a loss than forcing a Dark Knight to turn on Grit and do a Power Slash combo.

Of course tanks did far more damage back than relative to the DPS. So while that would no longer be the case in Shadowbringers, it still speaks volumes on how poorly thought out Tank Stance was and why tanks never wanted to use it.

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Perhaps. But it was never my attempt to argue.

I spent too much time in past arguing over the differences between tank stance vs dps stance that I eventually got tired of it. I'm aware of the dps loss and all that info (I use to stance dance all the time and gotten into plenty heated debates over it). I've been chewed out repeatedly for tanking in dps stance or for tanking too much in tank stance.

It was just in my experience that the "mah dps" mentality mostly came from the tanks I would que up with expecting others to accommodate for them when aggro exploded. It wasn't often, but it was notable.

I don't know why stances were a thing when they seem redundant anyway. I feel like having an enmity-building combo that's more than enough to hold it, and a general DPS combo should've sufficed. Having two combos at least makes tanks less boring to play, too.

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Originally Posted by Mindiori

the modern mmo community just can't handle the brain power.

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This is why no one likes listening to an elitist.

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People have different tastes and that is fine, but I do find it odd that people can be against something because of others so to speak. Players will be bad, I do think we should balance the game around bad players. Run into a bad player give them the boot and move on, do not waste your time with them.

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Again, I ran into these kinds of tanks so frequently in DF that I would not have been able to kick them all. I could have just left too, I suppose, but then I wouldn't get any of my roulettes and crap done. What you suggest wouldn't have been an adequate solution.

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Stormblood proved that tanks had little interest in using the emnity tools they had and preferred to push that responsibility off to everyone else in the team. Stormblood also proved that DPS and healers didn't want to use those tools, justifying it with the argument that agro management is the primary responsibility of the tank.

So if you're the game developer, you had two choices. Continue to double down on the system that has caused a lot of community bickering for four-six years, and to a degree scared people off from playing a tanking job entirely (because no one will let you sit in tank stance while you're still learning when it's safe to turn it off) or just abandon the mechanic, eliminate agro management, and let tanks do full damage all the time.

If only from the perspective that there's at least a little less bickering between players, the current system is superior.

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Well said, except that I'd say the issue really started in Heavensward, namely when Deliverance got introduced. Cue all the warriors who observed that Defiance didn't give any direct damage reduction (nevermind the fact that it did give increased heals, which was its own form of damage "mitigation") and then subsequently saw fit to try to stay in Deliverance whenever possible.

Also, STR accessories. At least Stormblood started to change that part.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Again, I ran into these kinds of tanks so frequently in DF that I would not have been able to kick them all. I could have just left too, I suppose, but then I wouldn't get any of my roulettes and crap done. What you suggest wouldn't have been an adequate solution.

Well said, except that I'd say the issue really started in Heavensward, namely when Deliverance got introduced. Cue all the warriors who observed that Defiance didn't give any direct damage reduction (nevermind the fact that it did give increased heals, which was its own form of damage "mitigation") and then subsequently saw fit to try to stay in Deliverance whenever possible.

Also, STR accessories. At least Stormblood started to change that part.

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If I was not able to boot them I simply left the group. Boils down to different people different mindsets. Though even with that it still seems odd why people would rather balance the game from the bottom up. Why balance a game around bad players? This is not just about aggro management goes but with healing also. Making the role require less depend either on the group or player seems like an odd approach it increase the appeal of the role.

For me personally the most fun I had tanking in any expansion was HW, it just seems you have a personal beef with damage orientated play style which is fine, but seems unfair to me to base your disdain around such a play style solely around personal bad experiences. I mean you must have ran into tanks that were able to manage it perfectly fine and saw how smooth the run could be.

I guess for me coming from the side that x is bad thus because people are bad seems like a boring way to approach any aspect of game balance. I mean I get the DPS mindset has a learning curve and mistakes will be made, I have wiped many groups learning how to tank in dps stance as a war back in HW, but once you get the hang of it it did open up new depths of optimization in terms of play and also an added metric which one can judge ones performance as a tank and see their progression in form of clear times, less healing required etc . . .

Not so say current tanks lack optimization, but personally it is a shadow of its former self in my opinion.

Just make defense stance a trait and reduce enimity generation of a tanks dps combo. Then up enmity generation on threat abilities. Problem solved dps happy tanks can dps until their nose bleeds and confetti pops out their ears while the real tank handles the boss.

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For me personally the most fun I had tanking in any expansion was HW, it just seems you have a personal beef with damage orientated play style which is fine, but seems unfair to me to base your disdain around such a play style solely around personal bad experiences. I mean you must have ran into tanks that were able to manage it perfectly fine and saw how smooth the run could be.

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I really don't care how much damage tanks/healers can do so long as they're actually still doing their job/role. I don't get why it even needs to be said, but tanks/healers that fixate on doing damage to the point they forget what role they're actually playing and let people die because of it were/are a problem, not something to be encouraged.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I really don't care how much damage tanks/healers can do so long as they're actually still doing their job/role. I don't get why it even needs to be said, but tanks/healers that fixate on doing damage to the point they forget what role they're actually playing and let people die because of it were/are a problem, not something to be encouraged.

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But tanks or healers that do that without trying to adjust from their mistake are simply bad players, has little to do with the play style itself but more so the player. Yes people will die when a tank or healer pushes their limits, and pushing ones comfort zone should be encouraged because that is how we learn to move past those limitation and become a better player overall.

I get it you do not like playing with bad players, don't we all. I hate playing with melee only rdms but I do not think SE should streamline their melee skills to the point where it becomes a non factor to rdm play style.

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But tanks or healers that do that without trying to adjust from their mistake are simply bad players, has little to do with the play style itself but more so the player. Yes people will die when a tank or healer pushes their limits, and pushing ones comfort zone should be encouraged because that is how we learn to move past those limitation and become a better player overall.

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Not understanding your own limits (and subsequently, overestimating them) is something I would find understandable in pre-50 dungeons. It gets a little tiresome in things like expert roulette, though. By this point players really should know better.

As for the comfort zone point, I really don't think there is any "one size fits all" good way to deal with that. Many people have been pushed out of various roles (usually healer) due to other people feeling their comfort zones should be pushed. I believe that for some people, their comfort zone exists where it does for a good reason and it ought not to be pushed.

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I get it you do not like playing with bad players, don't we all. I hate playing with melee only rdms but I do not think SE should streamline their melee skills to the point where it becomes a non factor to rdm play style.

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That's a really bad false equivalence. Tanks who didn't know how to hold hate pre-SB2 (or simply felt like they couldn't be bothered, because ohmagawd mah deeps or whatever) were everywhere, whereas I can count the number of Riposte-spamming RDMs I've run into in the DF on one finger.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I really don't care how much damage tanks/healers can do so long as they're actually still doing their job/role. I don't get why it even needs to be said, but tanks/healers that fixate on doing damage to the point they forget what role they're actually playing and let people die because of it were/are a problem, not something to be encouraged.

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Because everyone wants to do the deeps. Being flippant aside, Damage is gonna be an aspect of tanks no matter how you cut it. You can tweak the numbers all you want, make it so tanks only do 100 DPS, and youll still have people trying to maximize that number.

The learning curve should be Get Aggro>Hold Aggro>Use Proper CDs>Maximize damage. Problem you are describing is people are playing tanks like DPS and jumping to the last step. Those are bad tanks. Let game mechanics punish them severely, or people should start kicking bad tanks who dont hold aggro.

The problem with the Tank stance issue and threat in general is that people had the wrong idea about it in general. In casual content where tank dps is all but irrelevant, you had a lot of players get it stuck in their head that "Oh, if the strats in Savage are to drop tank stance and rely on dps and the like to keep threat, so thats what I should do". This is the wrong approach for that content. In a dungeon, or regular trials, there was no reason to drop tank stance. Maybe if you did and you had no problem with keeping aggro you cleared the entire dungeon maybe a minute or two faster. Big deal. If you could do this and didnt have a problem, go for it. But most players couldnt and you had a lot of people insist tank stance wasnt necessary. This was exacerbated by the simple fact that tank stance not only reduced damage taken by a good margin, but it also reduced dps dealt. In the eyes of players, that 20% was significant. So to fix it you need to change the perception while still making threat management important, where they dont feel like they have to get out of tank stance immediately for the big numbers.

If they want to bring back threat management (which I agree with), you need to take what we got currently and just add a bit more nuance.

Lets take Dark, for example -

- Leave tank mitigation trait.
- Modify aggro Generation Tables so that while you are in Grit, you still get an aggro boost BUT it's not guaranteed. You will lose aggro unless you hit Power slash every so often.
- While Grit is active, Siphon Strike and Soul eater becomes Spinning slash and Power Slash respectively (This is also a bit of a crowd pleaser for a few people who liked those animations too)
- Threat Gen is way higher for these skills but will have lower potencies than their counterparts. Possibly add a combo finisher trait that reduces the CD of TBN by a second or 2.
- Change Grit Recast time to be lower.

Now Give DPS and Healers back their threat dump skills.

Now you have a simple Threat management system where in high end content where you can voke/shirk and doing maximum damage is a thing, you can now balance out how often you use Powerslash while still maintaining aggro. For non savage content, you can sit in Grit and just powerslash all day. You will do less damage but only on your primary combo. Bloodspiller and all other DPS sources for your kit wont be affected, so youre not gonna be 'suffering'. If you got overgeared dps or healers that make tanking a struggle, they will have aggro dumpers to press.

As a side thought - Yes I think it would be a lot more interesting for tanks in general if tank skills were modified by whether or not you were in tank stance. You had this with warrior but you could toy with this a bit more so that itd be more interesting. Perhaps youd have changes where Blood Spiller does a smidge less damage but applies a stacking dot while in Grit. Stuff like that. Possibly make it so that it stacks 2 or 3 times, and every subsequent BS after that just refreshes the duration when youre in tank stance. So youd pop into tank stance to get the dot applied, drop out of it to do maximum BS damage with Delirium spam or something. But I digress.

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Because everyone wants to do the deeps. Being flippant aside, Damage is gonna be an aspect of tanks no matter how you cut it. You can tweak the numbers all you want, make it so tanks only do 100 DPS, and youll still have people trying to maximize that number.

The learning curve should be Get Aggro>Hold Aggro>Use Proper CDs>Maximize damage. Problem you are describing is people are playing tanks like DPS and jumping to the last step. Those are bad tanks. Let game mechanics punish them severely, or people should start kicking bad tanks who dont hold aggro.

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That's just it though; they don't get punished severely. Their party members do. (Then the tank usually has the gall to say something like "use quelling next time")

And as I've pointed out above, if things went back to pre-SB2 and I was expected to just kick every tank I ran into like this, I wouldn't even be able to because of the vote dismiss cooldown. That's how commonplace this was. And even then, so what if they're kicked? They will have no problem getting another group, because even though they're playing "DPS" they still have that coveted blue icon.