Tanking in FF14 question

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Same reason I roll my eyes at healers who think they need a 4-5 button combo with conditionals for DPS, ontop of all of their healing duties. Yeah, okay, the savage players asking for that could perhaps handle that... but your average player, couldn't.

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Im not savage raider and even i think healers gameplay is haunted with chronic boredom.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Im not savage raider and even i think healers gameplay is haunted with chronic boredom.

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I try to explain it like this to people;
You have an oGCD ability that heals 100 potency. 4min cooldown.
Then another, thats 100 potency, 4min cooldown.
then a 3rd, 100p, 4min cd.
then finally a 4th. again, 100p, 4m cd.
this LOOKS complex, but its really not, once you're used to it. Essentially this can be changed to one button, with a 1min CD, and 100 potency.
the only difference between them, is that the prior lets u burst it all in one go, and the 2nd allows for new abilities, so as not to have ability bloat.
while the prior isnt always wrong, it shouldnt ever be done just to make more filler moves. moves should have depth. i also dont mind having more options. but some options that are TOO situational, should have secondary effects, which can at least be useful a bit more often. (but not inherently tied to DPS. otherwise skills like gap closers, ppl will just use to keep DPS up)

an example: 3.0 PLD. Rage of halone combo was useless after the initial threat. and AoE became useless in 'most' of savage content.
So why not tie threat and aoe together, to minimize buttons? PLD would use flash for threat, not DPS. PLD would use RoH for threat, not DPS. so if you make a weak AoE, with high threat, on par with RoH, it can be used in the same way RoH is used on single target. This reduced the number of buttons by one already.
lastly, remove Shirk, and we go back to needing threat options after a voke again. (With the added bonus threat from voke, theres no reason to keep shirk really.)
this is of course an example of how you can turn "lesser" used abilities into a abilities used a bit more often. (They technically lower DPS, rather than raise it, so they are supportive instead. Because of this DPS loss, they better darn well be worth the trade off, which in the case of making sure enemies hit the tank, and not kill a DPS, its "technically" a DPS increase, even if personal DPS is lowered)

Back to the point... I agree, Healers arent complex. Adding some depth doesnt equate complexity. There's plenty added to them already for "complexity" thats just pointless filler. They need more depth, and interesting mechanics. Also, just leave WHm as the "basic" healer. If i feel like being lazy, I play WHM, when I wanted to try harder, I used to play AST or SCH. (now they just feel mostly the same. only a tiny bit of difference)

Big pulls that's all you need to know to sum it up why everyone hates healing or tanking.

Outside big pulls and certain boss mechanics healers and tanking have nothing to do.

I'm a BLM Main and even I get bored of just big pulls because that's the only exciting thing to do and it puts me on edge (Can I DPS this big pull before the healer runs out of mana and the tank dies ?).

Even boss mechanics are predictable.

Maybe I should raid <.<.

I feel that a lot of people just have short attention spans, and they require constant stimulation to be enjoying something, to be honest.

I really don't think an MMO, any MMO, is going to be their cup-of-tea, really. At least not one that uses an ability hotkey system like FFXIV or WoW or others like it do.

They keep yammering about jobs being "too simple" and they keep yammering about "the old days" but they are forgetting that it wasn't really all that more complex or interesting back then, really. Was it really more interesting to spam flash and dump fast blade and savage blade by tab-targeting through mobs? Are they really trying to say that was somehow more interesting?

Or the healers who complain about DPS being "too easy" ... I dunno about SCH and AST (I didn't get to them until late Stormblood) but I remember WHM being Stone, Aero, and Aero II (along with Cleric Stance which half of the time they got people killed with anyhow). Now we have Stone, Aero, and Misery. I mean, at least the lillies system has actual use now, unlike in Stormblood?

I'm just not really seeing how that's actually any less "interesting" and "complex" than it was before. I think the main crux of the problem is that people have rose-colored goggles from when they were more new to the game, and they've played it for hundreds of hours, and they've just simply put too much time in it and they look back on days where they had less playtime when they hadn't burned out so much and they mistake their lack of fun today as being because of the changes made to the game, rather than just simply the passage of time.

This is why Yoshi-P wants you to take breaks from FFXIV now and then. Clear a tier of content, play something else, come back rather than hack away at the time every single day, or week until new content comes out.

To be honest? I played WoW up to this past November. I can tell you that there's not much more complexity there either, it's just faster button presses, with lots of filler abilities that don't really seem interesting whatsoever. You want to talk about boring? I could name you some WoW jobs that aren't even half as complex as XIV's. But yet people talk like XIV is somehow "boring" or something and it kinda feels like they're pointing at WoW. The only thing WoW does better, is give you a bit more conditional abilities, but even then ... sometimes I feel like that's a bad thing because of how bad RNG can screw you and refuse to proc what you need to proc (kind of like how BLM can go 10+ fires in a row and not get a single firestarter and the next fight, he gets 3 in a row).

I think people should just take the rose-colored goggles off and try to calm down, and chill some. If you're getting THAT bored of the game that nothing will please you, why not just take a break like Yoshi-P asks, and come back when 5.3 comes out. It sounds like you just simply need new content, and a little time away.

To the OP, I'll again re-iterate something I said before in this and other threads: Low-Level is always boring. Do you remember what low-level was like during WoW? Where you had 2-3 abilities you used, and it was like this clear up until Lv30? 40? FFXIV is no different. I started a Druid last year, when I unlocked Zandalari Trolls and their dino druid forms. I was bored to tears because of the fact I only had like 3 attacks that I spammed over and over and over and over again. Rake Mangle Mangle Bite, dead. Rake Mangle Mangle Bite, dead. Rake mangle mangle bite, dead.

*yawn*

In fact... that's the core of the gameplay even at Lv50-ish when I quit around November. I just had a bunch of other situational buttons I may or may not use once in a blue moon.

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Maybe I should raid <.<.

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FFXIV is one of the only games I would encourage common people to try raiding in. Normal Raids are, at least IMO, reasonably fun but yet accessible to, I'd say, 30-50% of the playerbase.

If you're already raiding Normal but not Savage... well, you can try that. lol. It's far harder. There, you'll be glad you have time while doing your rotations to keep track of all the stuff going on that bosses do.

EDIT: Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but even at Lv120, doesn't WoW's Prot Paladin tanking look something like this:

1). Throw Shield when possible.
2). Use Hammer until 3+ Holy Power
3). Use the Shield Slam or self-heal
4). Repeat

to tank a group of mobs, basically? There's a couple filler buttons, but I remember this being basically the core of the class's "rotation". And/or if you chose a talent you might get a free shield slam or self-heal now and then.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I feel that a lot of people just have short attention spans, and they require constant stimulation to be enjoying something, to be honest.

They keep yammering about jobs being "too simple" and they keep yammering about "the old days" but they are forgetting that it wasn't really all that more complex or interesting back then, really. Was it really more interesting to spam flash and dump fast blade and savage blade by tab-targeting through mobs? Are they really trying to say that was somehow more interesting?


to tank a group of mobs, basically? There's a couple filler buttons, but I remember this being basically the core of the class's "rotation". And/or if you chose a talent you might get a free shield slam or self-heal now and then.

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Say that to DRK, I dare you. There was times playing tanks to where you had to be aware and if you were aware you could be risky and be rewarded for it. That being said, all tanks had expectations that your class was going to take a step forward in progression from lvl 70-80 from a new expansion, its an expectation that you pay for. Tanks did not. They streamlined one aspect but then took stuff away from us, then did not do thier jobs for tanks. I want you to argue WAR, how do you argue WAR getting only 1 new skill at 70+ and passives that do nothing for the job at all?
Let me be more frank, why did SE think it was wise to simply just use the excuse to give all tanks what they were missing from other tanks as thier "LvL 80 progression" this expansion?
It was to make them balanced, same as healers, but when they did that they removed the entire job identity of every tank and every healer by doing so. They all play the same, dry BS 1-2-3 dump resource and wait for either a DPS cooldown increase or an IR spam button with very few OGCDs to even play with. How is that fun?
I took a break personally after last tier for almost 2 months... I came back and I still hated tanking. So taking a break doesn't help when relying on new content when doing said content sucks.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I think people should just take the rose-colored goggles off and try to calm down, and chill some. If you're getting THAT bored of the game that nothing will please you, why not just take a break like Yoshi-P asks, and come back when 5.3 comes out. It sounds like you just simply need new content, and a little time away.

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But I still have fun with Dragoon. I still have fun with SAM.

So why is it, that I gave up on Healing, and don't find Tanking to be at all enjoyable short of the extra rewards? I cannot tell the difference with these goggles on my head so enlighten me Mr Chill.

Rose Tinted Goggles vs Thick Glasses that prevent you from seeing issues in the game; I get the feeling Maeka would accept a 3 button tank.

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Originally Posted by Gramlite

...but does it get more fun in the later level?

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Only you can decide if it's fun or not, don't rely on others to tell you whether something is fun. In a previous MMO, for quite a long time, I played what was considered the "worst" class/spec combo in the game, that everyone said "don't play it"...But I did anyway, because I thought it was fun, and it worked just fine and I could play it well.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

But I still have fun with Dragoon. I still have fun with SAM.

So why is it, that I gave up on Healing, and don't find Tanking to be at all enjoyable short of the extra rewards? I cannot tell the difference with these goggles on my head so enlighten me Mr Chill.

Rose Tinted Goggles vs Thick Glasses that prevent you from seeing issues in the game; I get the feeling Maeka would accept a 3 button tank.

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Maybe you were just never meant to be a tank or a healer to begin with?

I mean, if you want complex DPS rotations and stuff, then........play a DPS.

If we made more complex rotations, like DRG into a tank or healer, then more than half the playerbase wouldn't be able to handle it + actual tanking and healing duties combined. Do you seriously want to see your wait times shoot up to 45min+ as DPS?

As for whether or not I'd be happy with a "3 button tank", well.... that's a bit of an exaggeration because there's way more than 3 buttons. Maybe they could add a little more complexity, but I'm fine with the way they are today. And hey, if it's too boring for you, you can play SAM and DRG. It's not like you're forced to Q as tank or heals.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

o the OP, I'll again re-iterate something I said before in this and other threads: Low-Level is always boring. Do you remember what low-level was like during WoW? Where you had 2-3 abilities you used, and it was like this clear up until Lv30? 40? FFXIV is no different. I started a Druid last year, when I unlocked Zandalari Trolls and their dino druid forms. I was bored to tears because of the fact I only had like 3 attacks that I spammed over and over and over and over again. Rake Mangle Mangle Bite, dead. Rake Mangle Mangle Bite, dead. Rake mangle mangle bite, dead.

*yawn*

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Im still playing wow classic on the off and on. i have a 60 war and 60 paladin Low level is somewhat bland i agree but it wasnt as bland as this in the low level tho. for example, Warrior has a rage system that you can't really spam and it is not a guaranteed hold too, if your initial Sunder armor is blocked dodge or parry your dps has to slow down on the initial DPS until the tank can get a few sunders in. Also warrior didnt have an aoe threat generating as good as the 1 here in FF14. Where as here in FF14 all i do is iron will + spam aoe and that will hold no problem. Now i wasnt trying to do a FF14 vs Wow, i was trying to see if it gets more engaging in the end game. So far im in hakkune manor and its beginning to pick up on the fun factor, lots of mobs need interruption, lots of mob need stuns. Hope it keeps it this way

I was never a fan of DPS having to slow down because of poorly balanced aggro management systems.

That just doesn't seem like good game design to me, to be honest. DPS jobs should be about being the best at your game to put out the best DPS you can... except..... you can't.

It's like buying a Ferrari to drive it on roads that have a speed limit of 35MPH. What the frick is the point in that, really?

And yeah, not trying to do a WoW vs FFXIV either, but WoW is relevant to the discussion since it's the game you came from. So no problem on that!

Different dungeons have different degrees of how many mobs can and should be stunned, whether or not you have a WHM in the group (they get AoE stun that they will spam and it makes mobs immune to stun) and IMO, they needed to add more interruptable attacks.

What will pick up, is the sheer tools you get as a Paladin to help your teammates. You are almost to the point you get Cover which lets you take damage for someone else near you (target them, use Cover, make sure to stay close to them) if you know someone is about to take a mechanic to the face and die. Saving someone's life with Cover feels great. I love it.

Passage of Arms, which comes way later, is a reverse cone of damage reduction; anybody standing behind you while you use it (you have to stand still and not use any abilities or it wears off immediately) takes less damage from anything in front of you (usually used when a boss does a big AoE that hits the whole group, or a stack mechanic).

Clemency, I know a lot of people go 'meh' at Clemency but nothing feels better than to dump a Clemency on a healer who's about to die before the healer can even heal themselves, lol.

You likely have Reprisal (I forget what level that is)... a lot of people spam Reprisal anytime it's not on cooldown. IMO, I think this is the wrong way to use it. I like to save Reprisal for certain times. You definitely want to use it at the beginning of large trash pulls where it can have the most effect, and during bosses, you either use it on Tankbuster attacks, or large AoEs when you know one is coming. It's that "active mitigation" that WoW Devs were talking about a couple expansions ago and how they wanted to do that.

Turns out FFXIV PLDs do pretty well at that, too!

Also on that note, Sheltron. I love Sheltron, it lets me choose when I want to guarantee a -20% damage for 6 seconds (obviously for Tankbusters and the like).

It does get more fun later as you unlock more tools. And also the boss fights are going to get more complex as you get further on, especially in the late 50s, they start adding more diverse mechanics, and bosses will start to mix mechanics, and do them simultaneously. You'll find a boss has like 2-3 mechanics that seem so simple... until halfway during the fight, the boss decides to do 2 of those mechanics simultaneously that trips people up the first couple times they do a boss.

EDIT: Also Keeper of the Lake (Lv50 dungeon). I'm kinda of curious as to what you'll think of the last boss in there after you've done it (trying to avoid spoilers). There's quite a lot of dancing to avoid AoEs because they're just everywhere in that fight, tends to trip newbies up. Also the instant death if you miss the shield generator or mis-time it.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

From this expansion so far, yes.
IF they change it, it wont be till next expansion (theres no way they would. they think the only way to improve tanking/healing is over simplification. rather than just making an easy to play tank, and hard to play tank (and others being any range between)

EDIT: currently at your level. (Later levels varies, but is semi close, as your complexity is mostly in single target, but PLD i believe has the most "in depth" AoE option at max level.)

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Hmm, I wold say DRK, is the most in Depth AOE rotation.

PLD is:

Physical phase: (Total Eclipse > Prominence) > Spell Phase: (Req > Holy Circle (x4) > Confiteor) then fit Circle of Scorn in between GCDs.

You can't buff spell phase with FOF, so beyond that, your AOE spam will be (Total Eclipse > Prominence) with FOF when available. It's an easy AOE rotation. The only other thing you are juggling is your Defensive CDs.

DRK has a similar pattern with a 2-step AOE combo (Unleash > Stalwart Soul), and a high damage 5-hit spam (Quietus) with Delirium (similar to PLDs 5-hit spell spam). Beyond that, DRK should be using Salted Earth's dot damage which is only 5 ticks and you can definitely get 4 if not all 5 ticks in before the mobs die in high end dungeons. So that's an additional 300 potency per add. Then there's Abyssal Drain which is 200 potency per add WITH a heal, so very valuable in large mob pulls. Any additional Quietus are Gauge spenders, not MP spenders so you still have Flood Of Shadow to spam on all adds for 300 potency per add. It's hit box is very expanded so even though it is considered a "straight line" AOE you can still hit adds beside and behind you. Lastly, there's Blood Weapon which restores Gauge and MP at the same time.

So imo, I would say DRK has a lot more depth going on than any other tank job as far AOE rotations go :)

Tank since 2014 Here,

It's true Tank jobs have been made easier. But so have all other roles too (Healer/DPS). Tanks took the biggest hit for sure.

I will say you relatively low level and won;t see any good action until Level 50. But even then PLD is still somewhat boring. Every 10 levels up to 80 will give you certain Weapon Skills and Traits that make the job more engaging. I would suggest to get to Level 80 before you come to your final conclusion on tanking. I do have all 4 tanks leveled to 80 and Raid at Savage level with all 4 of them, even though the Materia specs are off (Warrior job issue xD, so PLD, is probably the easiest most straight forward Tank right now. When I raid on PLD I don't have to think about my rotation, unless there is an emergency situation. Not the same for the other 3 tanks xD.

It's good to see that you are starting to enjoy yourself more as you progress, Gramlite. The low levels might feel a bit slow at first, but you will eventually get more off globals and more stuff. I have already posted the GCD rotations earlier for both AoE and Single target.

As for the WoW Paladin, the balancing there is a bit different compared to FF14. I never did play WoW Classic during the time, but I do hear that the Warrior was the tank period. Paladin and Druid were mostly for off tanking or off role stuff. They supplemented buffs to the other main roles like blessings and innervate for mana regen. As for retail version, we have to grind a cloak, a necklace and essences to slot in the necklace. We have to get the Strength of the Warden essence to be allowed to AoE taunt >.> Icy Veins suggests we PvP and get the reputation vendors up from the later 2 patches for some of the best ones.

The Paladin tank in WoW is something like this.

Pull with Avenger Shield and / or Judgement
Drop Consecrate ground AoE

Then it runs into a priority system of which one hits the hardest or grants the best survival. I will just list the base spells since the Azerite Necklace Essences and talent system can alter it sometimes.

Judgment
Avenger Shield
Consecrate (if you need to move it or it fades)
Hammer of the Righteous
Consecrate

The rotation here is almost the same for both single target and AoE.
Shield of the Righteous is an off global and hits everything in front of them. It additionally reduces damage they take for a few seconds.
They also have Light of the Protector to heal themselves or another ally. Last I recall, it uses the GCD.
Judgment casts reduce the cooldown of Shield of the Righteous. Critical hits reduce the cooldown timer more.

What you said was kind of right, Maeka. The Cataclysm expansion used to use Holy Power for the Paladin tanks. Only the DPS Paladins use it now. The Healer and Tank just use a cooldown timer with ways to reset it or reduce it now. You are right the WoW Players complain about how boring Druid is for tanking. They basically have Mangle, Thrash, Moonfire, then Maul or Swipe as a filler. Again, it is the same for both AoE and Single Target.

Hopefully this will feel relevant enough to simply make a comparison.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I was never a fan of DPS having to slow down because of poorly balanced aggro management systems.

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That is/never was a thing ever. Shirk existed, diversion existed, Lucid dreaming existed. DPS have hate dumps and ways to drop you. You just didn't like DPS having responsibilities other than 'ME DPS ME HIT THING DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRR"

I have seen DPS rip aggro off the tanks before in previous expansion times for dungeons. The aggro dumps helped, but the SAM were still catching back up mid fight with a more freshly geared tank in a leveling roulette. The SAM players were asking for a secondary threat dump to something like Third Eye -> Merciful Eyes. Even then, this suggestion might not have helped too much because the boss might still rotate to the SAM with a cleave casting.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

I have seen DPS rip aggro off the tanks before in previous expansion times for dungeons. The aggro dumps helped, but the SAM were still catching back up mid fight with a more freshly geared tank in a leveling roulette. The SAM players were asking for a secondary threat dump to something like Third Eye -> Merciful Eyes. Even then, this suggestion might not have helped too much because the boss might still rotate to the SAM with a cleave casting.

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... Yeah and they got that hate dump in Third Eye to Merciful. It was a pretty major hate dump... if a SAM after the third eye change was ripping hate off the Tank 1 of two things were happening
1) Tank just straight up sucked
2) SAM had the tools but didn't use the tools.

This is coming from a SAM main in SB before I went Tank, SAM after the buff had 0 issues with hate, in fact I was the lowest generally in gameplay cause it was best to just merciful eyes every raid wide AoE anyways.

Is that so? I had been absent for a year during Stormblood, so some details seemed to have eluded me. That Mage Tower in WoW >.>

I had some concerns if there were enough party / raid wide AoEs to actually trigger this approach without yanking aggro. It's no fun for the gearing tank if they can't regain aggro no matter what and it's no fun for the DPS if they have to sit there doing nothing. Several seconds of waiting for initial aggro is understandable, but a bigger period of 10 - 20 seconds over and over in the course of a fight gets to be too much.

As for what the tanks want for a more engaging rotation, I still haven't been able to find a consensus quite yet what we would want. We could add another combo finisher like what Dark Knight's Delirium used to be. Hmm, but what else . . . It could also be a different 2nd combo move that can still lead to an existing combo finisher or 2. It would probably end up being something like a self buff that improves the next use of something like Sheltron. We used to have the Scourge and Fracture DoTs on Warrior and Dark Knight too. They might be candidates for 2nd combo moves. I just hope Fracture will actually be worth it this time if they do this.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

Is that so? I had been absent for a year during Stormblood, so some details seemed to have eluded me. That Mage Tower in WoW >.>

I had some concerns if there were enough party / raid wide AoEs to actually trigger this approach without yanking aggro. It's no fun for the gearing tank if they can't regain aggro no matter what and it's no fun for the DPS if they have to sit there doing nothing. Several seconds of waiting for initial aggro is understandable, but a bigger period of 10 - 20 seconds over and over in the course of a fight gets to be too much.

As for what the tanks want for a more engaging rotation, I still haven't been able to find a consensus quite yet what we would want. We could add another combo finisher like what Dark Knight's Delirium used to be. Hmm, but what else . . . It could also be a different 2nd combo move that can still lead to an existing combo finisher or 2. It would probably end up being something like a self buff that improves the next use of something like Sheltron. We used to have the Scourge and Fracture DoTs on Warrior and Dark Knight too. They might be candidates for 2nd combo moves. I just hope Fracture will actually be worth it this time if they do this.

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Uuuuh, again, in SB that was not a thing. Dungeon tanks sat in tank stance with adds cause you needed to for the mitigation. For raid, again, SAM, heck all DPS had diversion which removed all hate created from them by like 80-90% for their entire opener, leading to the Tank being way ahead on hate (which they never used aggro combo). After 1 combo of opening up Tanks would turn off tank stance and be in DPS the rest of the fight. If they for some reason really needed hate, that was on the OT to voke shirk the MT and they would never have hate issues (unless DPS didn't use their diversion/hate drops which they are supposed to do).

What tanks need is just more to do for our rotations. Each job would need something different for each one cause right now... they are all almost the exact same tank with minor changes. Its kinda... bleeeeeeeeeeeeh.

If there is one thing that puzzles me is why they removed the bigger health pool niche for Warriors. They had numerous self heals as their form to deal with damage and used the bigger health pool to still survive the hits. I believe the heals they received were boosted too so they weren't just mana sponges.

Another mechanic from WoW would be a damage delay that Brewmaster Monks have with an additional way to purify the delay DoT damage. Hmm, but this might fit Astrologians better with their Time Mage roots.

Some other ideas could be a debuff tank and a partial damage reflect tank. I think Dark Knight with the old Delirium combo could take this up again for the debuff role. Maybe another AoE combo with a bunch of swords stabbing upwards . . . or downwards as a rain of blades. This leaves Gunbreaker with the damage reflect.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

If there is one thing that puzzles me is why they removed the bigger health pool niche for Warriors.[...]

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We can only speculate at this point, they've never given any explanation about this "hyperbole homogenisation".
At first, it seemed like they wanted to remove WAR from the "secured spot" it almost always had thanks to slashing debuff and stronger shields from tank stance (+20%). But then they added the +20% effect to Thrill of Battle, plus it now works on all actions whereas the old Defiance -yes, even Conva- only worked on spells (GCD heals), and didn't affect ability heals whatsoever (Equilibium, too). It is as they removed pretty much every little gimmick or leftover identity on "lower levels" -which even includes lvl 70 at this point- and given some of it back in another shape or form, e.g. Nascent Flash's self heal vs. old bloodbath or IB/SC heal. This makes lower level experience even worse imho because you can't even see the difference between the tanks until after level 71.
I don't know the answer, but I guess the dev team didn't had any quick solution, and -as BarretOblivion said- had their attention mostly on DPS jobs. End result, tanks and healers were left behind and falling short of actual (re-)design. They feel... soulless.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

We can only speculate at this point, they've never given any explanation about this "hyperbole homogenisation".
At first, it seemed like they wanted to remove WAR from the "secured spot" it almost always had thanks to slashing debuff and stronger shields from tank stance (+20%). But then they added the +20% effect to Thrill of Battle, plus it now works on all actions whereas the old Defiance -yes, even Conva- only worked on spells (GCD heals), and didn't affect ability heals whatsoever (Equilibium, too). It is as they removed pretty much every little gimmick or leftover identity on "lower levels" -which even includes lvl 70 at this point- and given some of it back in another shape or form, e.g. Nascent Flash's self heal vs. old bloodbath or IB/SC heal. This makes lower level experience even worse imho because you can't even see the difference between the tanks until after level 71.
I don't know the answer, but I guess the dev team didn't had any quick solution, and -as BarretOblivion said- had their attention mostly on DPS jobs. End result, tanks and healers were left behind and falling short of actual (re-)design. They feel... soulless.

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Maybe they were tired of players treating some tanks and healers as being "better" than others and/or maybe they were tired of trying to keep them balanced, and thought that if they "homogenized" them, then they'd be more balanced and there'd be less complaining about imbalance and/or less favoritism?

As a WHM player, I got so sick and tired of people on forums and now and then in game people rolling their eyes at WHMs because they were "bad" because they didn't do as much DPS as the others, and their healing "wasn't needed" during HW and Stormblood. And similar for PLD, really. They were like "pfft, PLD does way less damage than WAR or DRK, why do we need a PLD again?" and you know.... PLD happened to be the job I liked, but yet when people looked at it like that... it was really souring the mood, you know?

So now all the heals, and all the tanks are about the same. Yay for getting rid of job favoritism. I've not heard anybody grumbling anything about any of them other than people saying "they're all the same" or "they're all boring". It's better than them saying "everybody is better than WHM" or "everybody is better than PLD".

Other than of course GNB being OP early level like any new job.

EDIT: Come to think of it, everybody's fascination with doing "max deeeps" (and/or judging healers and tanks by how much DPS they can do) even on heals and tank might explain why they gave every healer increased DPS output full-time, every healer has an AoE DPS spell, and why they gave all tanks a two-button AoE damage rotation at far earlier levels, and increased their damage output full-time and got rid of stance switching.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Maybe they were tired of players treating some tanks and healers as being "better" than others and/or maybe they were tired of trying to keep them balanced, and thought that if they "homogenized" them, then they'd be more balanced and there'd be less complaining about imbalance and/or less favoritism?

As a WHM player, I got so sick and tired of people on forums and now and then in game people rolling their eyes at WHMs because they were "bad" because they didn't do as much DPS as the others, and their healing "wasn't needed" during HW and Stormblood. And similar for PLD, really. They were like "pfft, PLD does way less damage than WAR or DRK, why do we need a PLD again?" and you know.... PLD happened to be the job I liked, but yet when people looked at it like that... it was really souring the mood, you know?

So now all the heals, and all the tanks are about the same. Yay for getting rid of job favoritism. I've not heard anybody grumbling anything about any of them other than people saying "they're all the same" or "they're all boring". It's better than them saying "everybody is better than WHM" or "everybody is better than PLD".

Other than of course GNB being OP early level like any new job.

EDIT: Come to think of it, everybody's fascination with doing "max deeeps" (and/or judging healers and tanks by how much DPS they can do) even on heals and tank might explain why they gave every healer increased DPS output full-time, every healer has an AoE DPS spell, and why they gave all tanks a two-button AoE damage rotation at far earlier levels, and increased their damage output full-time and got rid of stance switching.

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Although this is likely correct, notice how they didn't do the same with DPS, who also have that issue of what DPS was viable and which ones weren't. They didn't homongonize DPS, they realized if they did that the game would be on fire. Because Tanks/Healers are a smaller portion of the playerbase (still at least 30-40%) they believed they could get away with what they did this expansion and thought it would not hurt the game.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Although this is likely correct, notice how they didn't do the same with DPS, who also have that issue of what DPS was viable and which ones weren't. They didn't homongonize DPS, they realized if they did that the game would be on fire. Because Tanks/Healers are a smaller portion of the playerbase (still at least 30-40%) they believed they could get away with what they did this expansion and thought it would not hurt the game.

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DPS are easier to balance.

There's only like 2 metrics you need to balance DPS: Output and Utilities.

Notice how all the DPS have similar utilities (movement abilities, second wind, etc)? Well, as long as the DPS are doing DPS within 5-10% of each other, they're balanced. And if they're not balanced, an easy fix is to just add or subtract a little potency, like what they did with DNCs when their damage was well behind everybody else's.

Tanks and Heals, however, you need to balance how much damage they can take and how much healing they can do, along with their DPS. So SE's decision was to just simply make them very similar and then make their DPS similar and their survivability about the same and boom. Balance.

The reason why we had so much difficulty in the past, is they tried to balance it by giving WHM lots of heals and PLDs the ability to soak lots of incoming damage. This didn't work because players simply didn't care about that; all they cared was about DPS output, which led to the "WHM and PLD suck" shtick we heard for two expansions straight. So SE knew that having a throughput healer and an immovable wall meant nothing if their DPS was less. But they couldn't simply buff the DPS of PLD and WHM because they also had the damage soaking and raw healing power and they'd then be OP. So how do you fix this? Well, quite simple. Make everybody the same. That's the only way to shut players up and get them to stop discriminating.

It's a lot easier to play around with the DPS because the only numbers you really care about, are the DPS output for them really. As long as nothing egregious is going on like you have a DPS with zero movement abilities or something.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

DPS are easier to balance.

There's only like 2 metrics you need to balance DPS: Output and Utilities.

Notice how all the DPS have similar utilities (movement abilities, second wind, etc)? Well, as long as the DPS are doing DPS within 5-10% of each other, they're balanced. And if they're not balanced, an easy fix is to just add or subtract a little potency, like what they did with DNCs when their damage was well behind everybody else's.

Tanks and Heals, however, you need to balance how much damage they can take and how much healing they can do, along with their DPS. So SE's decision was to just simply make them very similar and then make their DPS similar and their survivability about the same and boom. Balance.

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I mean they dohn't care about that because why is DRK still have LD debuff? That's not balanced, but regardless, all tanks last expansion were fairly close to mitigation as well, the only differences they need to worry about damage is fix cooldowns, they did that. That doesn't explain the rotations nor the core gameplay loop of them all being nearly identical.
If you have to make everything the same for balance, than don't make them balanced. Simple as that. Your entire game is revolved around the class/job system. You homogenize them then you push more players away. People still played PLD last expansion, and infact it was a staple OT cause it was great there, it had a place. DRK was the odd ball and the fact of the matter is DRK out DPS'd PLD but wasn't picked up. Why? It wasn't damage, it was cause it had design issues tht they did fix in SB, they only needed to figure out LD. Then they nerfed Holmgang from WAR which was a bit of the reason why DRK was never pulled in cause WAR had the best tank invuln. Now? its still the best but not to the point where people care. Congrats, thats all they needed to do to get tanks fairly balanced, each one having a strength to use cause it gave them identity. BUUUUUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SE took a sledgehammer to a problem that needed only a toothbrush to fix when it was already almost done.
The truth is they wanted to balance tanks and healers and didn't have time actually do that in a good way, so they took a sledgehammer and made them all the same cause people clammored for DRK rework instead of fixing it. There is no excuse for what they did, they failed. You have to put in the very same amount of effort for job design as DPS else you lose Helaers/Tanks and the game doesn't function anymore.

So judging from what you said, amongst the three tanks WAR DRK and PLD. Is there really a big difference in playstyle? I'm concerned that PLD might not be needed in endgame because well exactly what you said.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

SNIP

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While I agree with you on some things I have two problems.

1) Bringing all the Tanks and Healers into line I actually like. I was a WHM in Heavensward and Stormblood, and disliked all hearing all the dunking on WHM. The fact this community still played favorites was annoying to me.

But if the other two healers are just rehashed WHM mostly, why should I play them? Why should I play the tanks if they're so close to each other now? Some brought up Fatigue when it comes to playing the game and having these jobs play close to each other doesn't help with that(Nor does making them discount DPS).

Jobs aren't as overshadowed as they were before, truthfully or perceived, but now there seems little reason to try other tanks or healers, just stay in one.

2) The fact you didn't think this happened to DPS. NIN dominated a pick slot, and DRG was almost always locked in as well. These days it seems you need a BLM and a DNC, and people are still debating about RDM or ranged in general.

People are going to argue over every little thing we can't escape that Teir list regardless of how much I want to.

And don't tell me this doesn't happen with Tanks currently either even with all the "fixes". Ask the community's thoughts on WAR, regardless of what the numbers actually say.

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Originally Posted by Gramlite

So judging from what you said, amongst the three tanks WAR DRK and PLD. Is there really a big difference in playstyle? I'm concerned that PLD might not be needed in endgame because well exactly what you said.

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WAR and DRK play extremely similarly in terms of their offense: Low APM with relatively unfixed rotations, with very similar-looking 90 second burst windows. Defensively, they're quite a bit different in an endgame perspective. WAR focuses on healing to the point they're well capable of doing half a healer's HPS, whereas DRK is more straight forward with their focus on mitigating damage via stacking TBN with other conventional CDs.

PLD has their rotation, strict, and can be big brain at times depending on the circumstance. But, the most important thing to consider is that there's no such thing as a tank that's not needed in endgame. All tanks currently have their merits, and speaking honestly, all have been homogenized in the aspects that make or break the decision making in which tank gets to come along.

There are still some slight differences between the 4 tanks despite the complaints of homogenization. They all have Rampart (20% reduction) and a cooldown that reduces damage taken by 30%.

Warrior - they have the highest burst damage out of the 4. The beast moves can eventually inflict guaranteed direct critical hits using the cooldowns Inner Release (upgraded Berserk) and Infuriate. Inner Release allows the spamming of either Fell Cleave or Decimate about 4 or so times in a row to make the burst really high. This also grants them burst self heals that can be applied to an ally and themselves when they use Nascent Flash. Their main weakness is the Eye of the Storm buff only being applied with single target with the AoE only refreshing the buff.

Paladin - the DPS tends to be more steady for these guys as long as Fight or Flight and Requiescat are used properly. They have the best "cheat death" cooldown with Hallowed Ground with the ability to target heal allies with Clemency. They have more passive defense since they can block in addition to parrying. The block can also work on spells. Their cooldowns make them arguably the best towards protecting other members. The main weakness I can see is they don't have any GCD spells or weaponskills that can be used within combos without ruining it.

Dark Knight - these guys resemble Warriors in playstyle, but their DPS is a little more steady. Having only one single target combo also makes them relatively easy to start with. I find their base combos to be a bit higher than the Warrior's base combos and they can apply their 10% DPS boost instantly with Flood of Darkness (AoE offglobal) or Edge of Darkness (Single offglobal). Delirium allows for a similar burst phase like Inner Release, except there is no guarantee for those crits or direct hits. The shield cooldown "The Darkest Night" is considered one of the best short cooldown mitigations and it can be used on any target. For weaknesses, Blood skills are a bit lackluster without Delirium. The Darkest Knight barrier needs to be countered with a tank buster at the right moment or your mana just drains.

Gunbreaker - this one brags about having the highest average DPS out of all 4 tanks. This is thanks to their 30s cooldown combo that also procs the off global Continuation that acts like an off global combo. The Aurora HoT as well as Heart of Stone can both be applied to anyone. Their cheat death is similar to Paladins, but it reduces their HP to one. Some healers get heart attacks from this, so I guess this is the main weakness if the Cheat Death Superbolide is poorly timed. The other is they can get pretty jammed with off global usage while they use their 30s combo cooldown. You have to use Continuation after every GCD use of the combo cooldown or you lose the chance for that damage. Plan the 2nd off global wisely for this moment.

Tanking in this game at the core has very little variety, but that is mostly due to the structure of the classes. WoW classic is slightly different since fury tanking I do not think was intended to be a main tank spec, but u he game supported that level of creativity and customisation.

Back in the day the difference between a good tank and a great tank provided a noticeable difference in clear times and healing required. I loved healing great tanks, but now to be honest I can hardly tell the difference between a good and great tank. Though that skill divide is something SE was not a fan of I guess which is a shame since as players I feel we should strive to become better and not just accept being a good tank. I use to hate playing with and healing tank stance tanks back in the day it was boring. But sadly they won SE favor.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

Gunbreaker - this one brags about having the highest average DPS out of all 4 tanks. This is thanks to their 30s cooldown combo that also procs the off global Continuation that acts like an off global combo. The Aurora HoT as well as Heart of Stone can both be applied to anyone. Their cheat death is similar to Paladins, but it reduces their HP to one. Some healers get heart attacks from this, so I guess this is the main weakness if the Cheat Death Superbolide is poorly timed. The other is they can get pretty jammed with off global usage while they use their 30s combo cooldown. You have to use Continuation after every GCD use of the combo cooldown or you lose the chance for that damage. Plan the 2nd off global wisely for this moment.

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You are wrong about GNB being "jammed", you are repeating your opener every minute so if you pulled of your opener once before, you do it again. The only difficult thing about GNB is trying to squeeze in your 'opener' window when you have to move away from the boss for 1 GCD. This can lead you dropping a combo, but that's it.

I remember back when you had to level up several classes to get their abilities, and how I immediately went and leveled up Gladiator so I could put FLash on my warrior to help with agro generation on AOE since all Warrior had at the time was Overpower. which ate up a lot of TP.
I don't mind the changes I have seen since I came back, I think many of them are good.
I would like to see a bit more differentiation between the tanks in terms of how they mitigate damage, but this is the most balanced method.

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Originally Posted by Gramlite

So judging from what you said, amongst the three tanks WAR DRK and PLD. Is there really a big difference in playstyle? I'm concerned that PLD might not be needed in endgame because well exactly what you said.

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Since they are so similar, PLD is just as good as the others, really.

Maybe, if you're trying to get into *THE* top progression, the top 1% cutting edge progression raiding, then maybe you'd want to pick the "best" jobs, but anything outside of that, PLD is fine, you don't have to worry about that there.

I do various forms of endgame not including Savage Raiding or Ex Primals, and I've never had trouble with PLD being "unwanted" as it's my main tanking job. And I've never heard of anybody not being able to do Ex Primals as a PLD, or even Savage Raiding.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

There are still some slight differences between the 4 tanks

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While you tried to explain the differences, you didnt list them all, even some of the important ones, while mentioning ones that have 0 impact on encounters, playstyle, or player choice. (Such as WARs having the most burst. Which USED to matter when content actually favored burst more.)
Due to tendentious, I'll not go into the details, despite saying you failed to do the same thing.
In short, most tank DPS is a playstyle difference. (most notably WAR and DRK being nearly idenitcal, but the playstyle is easier to execute for DRK, and easier to understand, along with being faster due to more oGCDs. PLD has a full on rotation. GNB can essentially be boiled down to, when shiney button is ready, press is. (priority system)) Functionally DPS type means nothing. Only the rotation, and how you interact with it, or not at all.
But the largest differences between the tanks in what they bring to a party, is their raid wide mitigations. (which has subtle differences, despite mostly being close enough to the same thing) Mitigation ends up being what matters most, but functionally in a players decision making process, and what it means for your party.
Otherwise, the next biggest difference is how their "non rampart/30%" mitigations work as a whole.(Example, DRK has the least number of mitigations to use for trash pulls, but has the best TB mitigation. PLD has the 2nd least trash pull mitigations, but has the best party raidwide mitigations. GNB is a bit of everything, but not the best at anything)

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Originally Posted by Gou_B

Hmm, I wold say DRK, is the most in Depth AOE rotation.

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IMO they are 2nd place, but close.
oGCD usually boil down to "press when ready" but for PLDs case, they cant/shouldnt do that for physical/magical phases when it comes to FoF, or Req. So thats 2 points PLD have over DRK. (maybe 1, since both have to press their DPS up buffs, the difference being timing requires more thought, before it becomes muscle memory)
it doesnt matter if its single target or AoE, oGCDs need to be keep on CD as soon as possible, w/o a DPS loss being incurred, which means salted earth will functionally be no different than circle of scorn. Nor CnS vs Spirits within. Abbysal drain is essentially a CD for mitigation, as well as DPS, so this is a bit of a grey area. u can argue its 1 more oGCD to make AoE DPS complex, but realistically should be used for survival, like aurora is used on GNB, and Equilibrium for WAR. You even use it in single target scenarios, because its always a bonus, so it's not something id personally put into the "makes AoE DPS more complex"
But then again, this is coming from someone who doesnt feel muscle memory means a rotation is less complex, because you have it down to memory. (example, the number of holy circles before you use confetior is down to muscle memory, but in the begging, you have to watch the mp/timer, to try and make sure u land confetior, or count out the number of presses. which imo is different from looking to see if an ability is lite up or not.)
The line AoE matter less, due to 2 things that all tanks do;
(1) dodge circle AoEs. Which has u dancing outside their circle, and always pointing inward.
(2) pass through trash mobs, and have them face away from the group.
if those 2 things werent done regardless fo which tank you were on, then id give a point to the line aoe requiring more work.

also, for the quietus spam, the ability lights up, so i once again feel this is a lot more straightforward, despite it seeming more random, than the phases in PLD. (But ill agree this is up to opinion) However, I do agree they come close to eachother, regardless of which you feel is more in depth.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I was never a fan of DPS having to slow down because of poorly balanced aggro management systems.
That just doesn't seem like good game design to me, to be honest. DPS jobs should be about being the best at your game to put out the best DPS you can... except..... you can't.

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Luckily FF14 never did that, cuz i hated that in other MMOs, including vanilla WoWs sunder rule.
But when tanks had to handle threat, they never needed DPS not to do dmg. the only thing they needed DPS not to do, was pull. (and that was mostly 2.0 as a non WAR)
Otherwise the tank had the option to use more threat moves for a DPS loss, or in some cases/expansions, DPS had an option to lower their own threat, while maintaining their DPS (and no DPS loss! No holding back!) The problem is, out of those 2, we know which people complained about more, despite one of the 2 is a DPS loss, and only one of those should seem like the viable option.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

Otherwise the tank had the option to use more threat moves for a DPS loss, or in some cases/expansions, DPS had an option to lower their own threat, while maintaining their DPS (and no DPS loss! No holding back!) The problem is, out of those 2, we know which people complained about more, despite one of the 2 is a DPS loss, and only one of those should seem like the viable option.

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You mean...outside of a Blackmage opening up with a double flare into Fire 3.
That is the only time I ever had issues with AOE agro and even then, Flash, Flash, Overpower to rapidly regain agro was a thing even if there was no proper usage of threat mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

You mean...outside of a Blackmage opening up with a double flare into Fire 3.
That is the only time I ever had issues with AOE agro and even then, Flash, Flash, Overpower to rapidly regain agro was a thing even if there was no proper usage of threat mitigation.

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It wasnt really an issue, except in small patch cycles, and even then, the BLM goes back to a normal rotation, and u keep spamming ur AoEs and you quickly have hate again. 2.0 was the only cycle that was really bad with threat generation. (really just PLD) But it was still fine. I had my BLM friend go ham, while my MNK friend went ham. I mostly spammed flash, and used stun on the mob my MNK friend was targeting, since he would eventually rip hate using single target, while im spamming flash. (the stun kept him safe till the mob died) If it were any other DPS, actually using AoE, then flash spam was enough. (This was before the nerf to flare)
only a few whiny tanks complained about BLM openers, because they lost hate for 4 seconds, and then got it back again. (Which only PLD really sucked at. WAR, and DRK did just fine. I honestly cant think of a single time I lost hate to a BLM opener as WAR or DRK. They just did too much burst dmg.)

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

It wasnt really an issue, except in small patch cycles, and even then, the BLM goes back to a normal rotation, and u keep spamming ur AoEs and you quickly have hate again. 2.0 was the only cycle that was really bad with threat generation. (really just PLD) But it was still fine. I had my BLM friend go ham, while my MNK friend went ham. I mostly spammed flash, and used stun on the mob my MNK friend was targeting, since he would eventually rip hate using single target, while im spamming flash. (the stun kept him safe till the mob died) If it were any other DPS, actually using AoE, then flash spam was enough. (This was before the nerf to flare)
only a few whiny tanks complained about BLM openers, because they lost hate for 4 seconds, and then got it back again. (Which only PLD really sucked at. WAR, and DRK did just fine. I honestly cant think of a single time I lost hate to a BLM opener as WAR or DRK. They just did too much burst dmg.)

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For War? UHhh, it depended on whether or not you had steel cyclone ready since overpower alone was not the best for aoe generation.
If all you had was overpower and flash, BLM can rip agro off really fast on the opener.
If you had Steel cyclone up and bursted? Pfft. nothing was stealing agro from you outside of a Provoke from a paladin.

The game is much easier for tanks now than it was back then. As I've been leveling I've been finding there really is no need for me to work on any other tank class besides Warrior. Which is fine, but the strengths and weaknesses of each tank job has been largely made the same. At this point its a matter of aesthetics.
So for now, I main my warrior for leveling, and I'll work on my dragoon after.

Anything else besides Disciple of the hand is just for kicks.

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Originally Posted by Claire_Pendragon

But the largest differences between the tanks in what they bring to a party, is their raid wide mitigations. (which has subtle differences, despite mostly being close enough to the same thing) Mitigation ends up being what matters most, but functionally in a players decision making process, and what it means for your party.

I\

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Negative. Raid wide between all tanks is basically the same except PLD gets one extra. However, in none of the savage fights does this matter because raid wide AoE can be mitigated to the point where it does almost nothing to where healers can just OGCD heal all the damage. The only thing comps consider for raid comp is this:
Do we have a WHM? If yes we can easily run a DRK.
That is litteraly the only thought anyone thinks of for composition.
In TEA this is a bit different as DRK is a clear king in that fight if you don't Living Dead and PLD is preferred for extra mitigation spam that is specific to that one fight. WAR is fine in there but GNB is not very good because of its lacking in personal mitigation making it just unnecessarily harder on Healers.

Also who in their right mind actually believes DRK is easier than WAR? Have you PLAYED WAR???!?!?! Just keep your darn damage buff and save upheavel if IR is coming up. Finally don't infuriate during IR. Congrats! That's the depth of skill required for WAR rotation.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

For War? UHhh, it depended on whether or not you had steel cyclone ready since overpower alone was not the best for aoe generation.
If all you had was overpower and flash, BLM can rip agro off really fast on the opener.
If you had Steel cyclone up and bursted? Pfft. nothing was stealing agro from you outside of a Provoke from a paladin.

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(1) Why wouldnt u have a steel cyclone ready? I always made sure to have one ready for the next pull. (obviously not holding it if its still only the middle of the fight, but when the fights almost over, save it up for the next pull, no point wasting it on only 2 mobs.)
(2) Berserk did insane dmg, with massive threat. (and during pacify time frame, u had flash as filler till pacify wore off) (They also had another DPS buff, i think internal release, or raging strikes, i forget what it was called)
(3) Vengance also added to your threat, along with all the self healing. (Thrill of battle, Second Wind, Blood Bath, and later Equilibrium replacing second wind)
(4) WAR had the ability to nullify the dmg penalty, leading to even more threat.
Depending on patch/expansion, berserk wasnt always up, so you alternated between it for 1 pull, and unchained for the other. (Unless doing super pulls, then they were usually both up)

WAR always had an answer for threat. PLD did not. FoF + circle of scorn was the best they had. and then flash spam, or tabbed RoH.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Negative. Raid wide between all tanks is basically the same except PLD gets one extra.

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All tanks are simmilar and practically the same. but even among small differences, one of those small differences is the "bigger" difference. Thats all I was getting at by saying that was the biggest difference. I still seem them as being practically the same. But I will agree I forgot to reply about ultimates like LD.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Also who in their right mind actually believes DRK is easier than WAR? Have you PLAYED WAR???!?!?! Just keep your darn damage buff and save upheavel if IR is coming up. Finally don't infuriate during IR. Congrats! That's the depth of skill required for WAR rotation.

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DRK is the same playstyle.
BS/Fell at 50 gauge, IF you dont have your oGCD 50 gauge spender. Eye/edge for your DPS buff.
otherwise 123.
The core difference is that WARs 2nd gauge isnt a bar showing when the best time to use eye, where as DRK has an easier to read gauge, AND can just oGCD its buff, AND can double up on it. WARs overwrites its own buff, leading to a mess up in the rotation. This is the core reason WAR is "technically" harder. (Otherwise id say they are roughly the same)
Lastly is the other oGCDs that DRK gets to press. These dont functionally have any effort in them, other than, when they shine, press them. WARs only other oGCDs require pressing at correct windows, and not any other time. (but this doesnt mean WAR or DRK are harder in their oGCDs)
Both have AoEs they need to "aim"
The core difference in difficulty between the two tanks, is the minimum play, vs max play. at minimum, DRK never needs TBN, and doesnt have to watch MP. But at maximum play, DRK does need to watch MP.
So DRK is the easier of the two to play for a bad player, since it flows smoother, and doesnt punish as much, but its the harder of the two to play for a good player, since theres more room for min/maxing DRK. (But over all, both are pretty darn close)

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Originally Posted by Gramlite

oh i thought its going to be more engaging in later levels :(

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You pretty much have your choice of perfectly optimizing PLD in certain Savage fights, DPS, or another MMO for that, sadly.

At least GNB takes quite a leap forward in single-target at level 70, and a bit more in AoE at 72, though.

If I was to give all the intricate details of every spell and weaponskill right this instant, the post(s) would likely be too big to absorb. The original poster is starting out the game and first asked if he did more than just pop Tank Stance and spam an AoE like Total Eclipse. His latest question is a concern if the play styles between the tanks are any different. Maybe the big burst will be fun to see since it might look like buzz sawing the enemy during the time. This is also handy if an ally is caged by a mechanic and you want to help burst them out now. If he does want some more details later for the combo bonuses and what exactly each tank mitigation cooldown is, we can help with that. It may be best to let him pick one class first to ask for these details. It is still appreciated that you are adding more to this, Claire.

As for the Gunbreaker part, I simply meant you can't just use Rampart and Heart of Stone in between one off global gap and hope the Continuation buff stays for the next one. You lose that particular Continuation buff doing that unless you purposely stall the GCD usage. It's not impossible to still get both tank buffs up during this time without clipping the GCD much. They just have to be used one at a time for each off global gap. I underlined the GCD skill used.

Gnashing Fang > Rampart + Continuation (Jugular Rip) > Savage Claw > Heart of Stone + Continuation (Abdomen Tear) > Wicked Talon > Blasting Zone + Continuation (Eye Gouge)

This is just in theory assuming you can attack the boss. If the first off global gap had Rampart + Heart of Stone instead, Continuation (Jugular Rip) would fizzle and change to Continuation (Abdomen Tear).