What healers could stand to lose.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I think the core of the issue is really that jobs are designed for Savage raiding and as a result perform poorly in other content. Sure you need all these things when doing that content but anything else it's just too much.

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Hence why the delete list is terrible, it's obvious they don't know how useful the skills are in savage and ultimate settings. Dungeons and most casual content almost 80% of the kit isn't quite optimal, can use at-will or whatever you want.

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Originally Posted by technole

Hence why the delete list is terrible, it's obvious they don't know how useful the skills are in savage and ultimate settings. Dungeons and most casual content almost 80% of the kit isn't quite optimal, can use at-will or whatever you want.

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I don’t agree with most of the delete list but at the same time not everything is useful in Savage either. Fluid Aura is still useless as an example.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

I don’t agree with most of the delete list but at the same time not everything is useful in Savage either. Fluid Aura is still useless as an example.

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Fluid aura and repose can be very useful in potd/hoh, and Eureka when solo. If it's not content you run or you otherwise don't want them, just take them off your hotbar? But they're objectively useful, if also situational.

umm... bigger question. Why delete anything?
All 3 healers just went through a big "simplification" of their jobs. Can we just downvote this entire thread?

SCHs calling for removal of Indom and other ogcd heals must've never healed hard content while trying to do good dps.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Fluid aura and repose can be very useful in potd/hoh, and Eureka when solo. If it's not content you run or you otherwise don't want them, just take them off your hotbar? But they're objectively useful, if also situational.

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Because we’re told the game is balanced around savage/ex.

And they are off my bar. When a skill is dead 95% of the time why have it? Delete or change it. But I’m a guy that also thinks Shield Bash should be removed.

Here's an idea. SCH could lose aetherflow. Hear me out, I'm not saying get rid of the mechanic, just the button associated with it. Since it's combat only anyways now, have it automatically do what it does now when a battle starts, and instead of having to press a button to get your aetherflow, you just get your stacks with a 60 second timer underneath that will automatically refresh your stacks, and give mana,as soon as the time is up. It frees up a button so we can have more interesting things and doesn't interfere with SCH's playstyle of managing aetherflow between DPS and healing. (assuming SE doesn't do a stupid move and get rid of energy drain a second time)

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

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On similar lines; AST can lose draw, just have a card spat into their hand every 30s

Isn’t that just reducing it to WHM Lily gen then?

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Isn’t that just reducing it to WHM Lily gen then?

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I guess? It's just a suggestion, not necessarily something I want, but if the only difference between lilies and aetherflow is pressing a single button, then they're already practically the same mechanic. I only suggest it so there isn't an excuse of "muh button bloat".

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

I guess? It's just a suggestion, not necessarily something I want, but if the only difference between lilies and aetherflow is pressing a single button, then they're already practically the same mechanic. I only suggest it so there isn't an excuse of "muh button bloat".

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To be fair it also gives back 10% MP though dunno how useful that is.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

To be fair it also gives back 10% MP though dunno how useful that is.

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Right, and I did say to keep that if they get rid of the button. Literally have it do exactly what it does now, just automatically instead of manually.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

This is purely speculative and currently based on ShB.

Whm
-Cure, trait now straight up just upgrades cure to cure 2, cure just doesn't have potency for ShB content
-cure 3, very niche and all healing done by this can be done by stuff like medica and medica 2 and assize
-fluid aura, even more niche
-Planeary indulgence, adds to ogcd bloat just not needed.

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I will comment on WHM:

Medica and Medica II have the same cast and recast time meaning oGCDs can not be weaved into them.
Cure I, II, and III all have lower cast times allowing oGCDs to be weaved.
PPP is around 40 - 45 at iLvL470 in a savage raid.
Eden Savage is overloaded with places one can Cure III

Cure is your fastest cast-time spell and still can give you freecures.
Savage isn't the only content in the game.
As a joke, when a tank does not pull everything in a dungeon...I just sit there casting cure 1 + regen (and it works) to send the message that they need to pull more.
If they pull everything, then I will holy spam and go all-in.

Fluid Aura (Needs a permanent long-term redesign)
Planery (Simply Amazing)

Planery takes what WHM is good at, and makes it even better......Raw Healing! It helps us do our job better and recover the HP of the party while the SCH or AST focuses on shielding the party (without needing to focus on also raw healing the group).

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Originally Posted by Stabby-Chan

... and recover the HP of the party while the SCH or AST focuses on shielding the party (without needing to focus on also raw healing the group).

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I could go through everything wrong with your statement but I wanted to focus on this.

SCH and AST don’t focus on shielding - we Shield when there is lethal damage incoming and no other time, because it’s vastly more inefficient than health healing. With tools like Whispering Dawn, Sacred Soil, and Earthly Star that heal so much health, why would I waste my time and mana on Succor/Asp.Helios?

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Because we’re told the game is balanced around savage/ex.

And they are off my bar. When a skill is dead 95% of the time why have it? Delete or change it. But I’m a guy that also thinks Shield Bash should be removed.

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If a skill is also only useful in savage or EX content then they should also remove it, since that means it is also dead the majority of the time as per your though here. The jobs being designed pretty solely for Savage or EX content is actually it's biggest hindrance. It stifles creativity and has led to the jobs all being so DPS focused that there is no room for things like crowd control or really meaningful AoE skills because these things are not necessary for Savage content.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

If a skill is also only useful in savage or EX content then they should also remove it, since that means it is also dead the majority of the time as per your though here. The jobs being designed pretty solely for Savage or EX content is actually it's biggest hindrance. It stifles creativity and has led to the jobs all being so DPS focused that there is no room for things like crowd control or really meaningful AoE skills because these things are not necessary for Savage content.

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See I’m in agreement here but with the community so focused on damage I don’t think the Devs could change it without backlash or even feel like they need to.

So we get skills that are only used in savage(or at least are able to hit their peak use) and the barebones to get there along with skills that are there for lore and no other reason. It’s a mess.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

If a skill is also only useful in savage or EX content then they should also remove it, since that means it is also dead the majority of the time as per your though here. The jobs being designed pretty solely for Savage or EX content is actually it's biggest hindrance. It stifles creativity and has led to the jobs all being so DPS focused that there is no room for things like crowd control or really meaningful AoE skills because these things are not necessary for Savage content.

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Last time I checked, most jobs are balanced around EX / Savage / Ultimate and ultimately are so dps-focused because that is frankly how you beat fights. Enrages, dps checks, faster killtime to see less mechanics in a fight, SKIPPING mechanics...

If you need to CC in a fight, you have two stuns, two silences and two sleeps per group without counting individual job skills or dps utility. We already have all tools to deal with CC requirements, it is just that fights never really got designed around having to use them bar silences since I think Gordias raids. An option would be.more Siege-style raids where you primarily need to defend an objective and use CC to deal with hordes or certain enemy spawns efficiently.

But apart from that, why would it matter if a skill is less relevant in 4man or generally casual content than in raids?

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Last time I checked, most jobs are balanced around EX / Savage / Ultimate and ultimately are so dps-focused because that is frankly how you beat fights. Enrages, dps checks, faster killtime to see less mechanics in a fight, SKIPPING mechanics...

If you need to CC in a fight, you have two stuns, two silences and two sleeps per group without counting individual job skills or dps utility. We already have all tools to deal with CC requirements, it is just that fights never really got designed around having to use them bar silences since I think Gordias raids. An option would be.more Siege-style raids where you primarily need to defend an objective and use CC to deal with hordes or certain enemy spawns efficiently.

But apart from that, why would it matter if a skill is less relevant in 4man or generally casual content than in raids?

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What we end up with are not skills that are less relevant just skills that are seemingly overpowered. That is what really is making other content seem trivial or too easy, these jobs are all designed around one high end encounter, any other content they are used in is treated as just being coincidental.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

What we end up with are not skills that are less relevant just skills that are seemingly overpowered. That is what really is making other content seem trivial or too easy, these jobs are all designed around one high end encounter, any other content they are used in is treated as just being coincidental.

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None of the new skills that we got enable anything new to be done, and a lot of the tools that Scholar and Astrologian lost in Shadowbringers (Rouse, Fairy Deploy, 150pot Collective, C. Opposition. Not even mentioning Role Actions) were stronger than what we've gained. White Mage, the outlier, didn't lose much but even then Afflatus skills are just damage-efficient Cure2 and Medica1.

Edit: Aside from Sacred Soil. But Sacred Soil is stupid and deserves to have been nerfed in 5.05.

What I’m saying is - the difficulty is not because of the new healing tools available. Non-ultimate content is just being made easier. Blaming the ‘savage/ultimate tuning’ boogeyman is pointless, because it’s not about them and just drives to put a wedge in the player base.

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Originally Posted by Irenia

From what I can tell, it's because they feel that unless your main heal is a GCD heal, you less of a healer than one that does. It was the vibe that I got reading the BLU healer thread on this forum, at least, given that job can only GCD heal, and it was seen as a step in the right direction.

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It's not just your heals being only GCD heals. As a BLU (healer) you also have up to 5 (currently) damage OGCDs. You have your 2 parts combo DoT to maintain. You have 2 spells with matching cooldowns to weave said OGCDs. You can do a lot of stuff during downtime and not just press 1 button over and over.
Also you have decent ward and White Wind which potentially can be an AoE Benediction, if used right.

Okay so, regardless of any other suggestions I've seen, and how I feel about them, one thing confuses me. Why are people saying remove Physick, from SCH?

Now hear me out, before I get butchered for defending a GCD base heal.

I get making the suggestion to remove Cure and Benefic and have them upgrade to Cure II and Benefic II. But why even suggest having Physick removed/upgrade to Adloquium? That's like saying replace Cure and Benefic with just Regen and Aspected Benefic, which no one has done, for obvious reasons. Physick is the only base heal that would "need" to stay, because the combined potencies of Physick and Embrace are supposed to act like Cure II and Benefic II.

SCH doesn't have a second tier basic heal, there is no Physick II, and I doubt people want one. On that same note SCH also doesn't have a first tier AoE heal. So suggesting the removal/upgrade of Medica or Helios is warrented, since SCH proves they aren't needed, even at lower levels. Faerie aside since she can't really "AoE" heal.

I wont delve into anything else, because an expanded kits usefulness is a bit more dependent on you experiences with other content. But this is the base kit we are talking about here.

I gonna put in a disclaimer without mentioning anything specific, because I wanna see how many people mention a certain heal after reading my statement. I hope no one does, but I'll cry if they do.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Okay so, regardless of any other suggestions I've seen, and how I feel about them, one thing confuses me. Why are people saying remove Physick, from SCH?

Now hear me out, before I get butchered for defending a GCD base heal.

I get making the suggestion to remove Cure and Benefic and have them upgrade to Cure II and Benefic II. But why even suggest having Physick removed/upgrade to Adloquium? That's like saying replace Cure and Benefic with just Regen and Aspected Benefic, which no one has done, for obvious reasons. Physick is the only base heal that would "need" to stay, because the combined potencies of Physick and Embrace are supposed to act like Cure II and Benefic II.

SCH doesn't have a second tier basic heal, there is no Physick II, and I doubt people want one. On that same note SCH also doesn't have a first tier AoE heal. So suggesting the removal/upgrade of Medica or Helios is warrented, since SCH proves they aren't needed, even at lower levels. Faerie aside since she can't really "AoE" heal.

I wont delve into anything else, because an expanded kits usefulness is a bit more dependent on you experiences with other content. But this is the base kit we are talking about here.

I gonna put in a disclaimer without mentioning anything specific, because I wanna see how many people mention a certain heal after reading my statement. I hope no one does, but I'll cry if they do.

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You can have Adloquium be an upgrade to Physick if you have Adloquium's base heal increased to Physick's potency (as I've suggested in my rework here /shamelessplug).

Otherwise you are correct that it is not a direct upgrade, since Adloquium cannot be spammed like Cure II or Benefic II can. The issue however is how the skill is used in actual content: most of the time Physick is used just like Cure I and Benefic I are, where Adloquium (or more efficient healing tools) should be used. If your target is getting hit hard enough to warrant Cure II/Benefic II spam, Adloquium spam is gonna be just as effective, since they're getting hit. If you instead need to top off someone (which is somewhat rare), you can usually resort to Emergency Tactics and other tools.

Having Physick upgrade into Adloquium would also make SCH more consistent, since SCH does not have a non-shielding GCD AoE heal either (Succor and Emergency Tactics anyone?).

Removing Medica makes sense only because Cure III (and to some extend Medica II) exists. Since there is no equivalent to Cure III on AST, removing Helios wouldn't be as good an idea.

At lower levels SCH has access to Whispering Dawn to compensate for getting Succor late, so I'm not sure how SCH proves Medica/Helios aren't needed at low levels.

I think people here are missing a lot of what makes some of the "1" spells still useful and good.

For instance, someone messes up a mechanics, the sch is dead and didn't get shields up - everyone takes a bigger hit of damage than you are expecting. I'm not about to want to spam medi2 and refresh hots over and over. You medi2 then spam 1-2 medi 1s as there is no need to pump more mana into a hot thats already doing it's job.

Same thing with cure 1. Sometimes you dont need to dump a mass amount of mana into someone and just need to top them a little bit to have them survive a mechanic. Faster cast, less mana, gets everything done.

Removing different level healing spells would ruin healers. Why do people want to dumb them down? There's very little issue with button bloat on them, and their variety of skills can really show who know's their job and who doesn't, not only in emergancy situations but in general raiding where you can abuse your kit to push out healing with little dps downtime. Sch opener has them atherflow, use every stack on energy drain, then dissapate. More DPS and using a skill so you make sure no one gets murdered until fairy/atherflow is back up. Atherpact even has it's uses when a tank may be taking a good chunk of damage and need a little extra help - Phase 3 of titan savage I routinely set my fairy on the MT to make sure they stay at a healthy range during the merry go round.

I guess my point is - why do people want to dumb down healers more than they are, prune fun and flexible abilities, because....? Sch is the only one I can think of having ANY "button bloat" issue and even then... not really.

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Originally Posted by Xiun

I guess my point is - why do people want to dumb down healers more than they are, prune fun and flexible abilities, because....? Sch is the only one I can think of having ANY "button bloat" issue and even then... not really.

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Simple the current state of the healers is due to \\'button bloat\\' from previous expansions pruning and removing what they felt was unnecessary.

Now removing nigh useless heals like cure 1, Benefic 1 which stop being any use due to tanks having much more inflated hp pools in ShB on top of nothing hitting hard enough to heal but not so hard that Cure 2 and benefic 2 cannot heal it on top of the ogcd healing bloat all makes them and their traits nigh useless, physick on the other hand experiences this and has done since lv50 by this point physick can straight up be traded for adlo, lustrate and fairy combined and you would never need to touch it period. Medica could probably fall in here too and laughs at fluid aura (small niche aside it needs updating).

Removing unnecessary skills even healing ones could free up space for more better skills or old returning ones. If their excuse for removing old skills was \\'button bloat\\' then I can clearly point to plenty already that can take the axe and around 95% of players would not care.

If (and yes Big IF) the devs reworked these abilities to be more beneficial and warrant existing as a separate buttons instead of using the upgrade system, which I actually do want to praise the devs for doing since it was annoying having malefic 1 and malefic 2 on bar in case went below malefic 2 range etc, then it would be a non issue but outside of syncing down does it hurt the healers much for these skills removal when they go heavily underutilised if it could allow better additions/old skills to replace them.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Simple the current state of the healers is due to \\'button bloat\\' from previous expansions pruning and removing what they felt was unnecessary.

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As a SCH main I can honestly say I have never had issues with button bloat. That being said, "button bloat" while definitely a thing, has factors involved, like playstyle, system, and comfortability. Healers have very little button bloat in comparison to jobs that don't get skill upgrades, looking at you BLM.

That aside, I think you are showing some lack of knowledge with regards to the healers and their toolkit. While you can make the claims about upgrading Cure, Benefic, Medic, and Helios, with updated MP costs, Physick. Adlo, and Lustrate, do not fit in with that premise. In fact I figured someone would mention Lustrate when it is irrelevant to the skills in question.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I gonna put in a disclaimer without mentioning anything specific, because I wanna see how many people mention a certain heal after reading my statement. I hope no one does, but I'll cry if they do.

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Physick does correspond to Cure and Benefic, but Adlo and Lustrate correspond to Regen and Aspected Benefic, and Tetragramaton and Essential Dignity, respectively. Volkaj did have a "shameless plug" lol, about an idea for an upgraded version which is a sorta merged Physick and Aldo, but that is about it. And if that's a thing it would be better to upgrade the other base heals in the same way, merging them with their gimmicks. Also more frequent use of the base heal, as needed, show how good one is as a healer. Admittedly, AST has an issue with this since their base heal is only 400 without the added benefit of an additional 50/100 potency provided by Cure and the faerie respectively. (Embrace is like 1/4 of Physick)

Also in regards to the possible Physick into Adlo upgrade that Volkaj suggested. Currently, Adlo is 300 potency, with a 125% shield totalling 675 potency normally, 1050 when crit. Aspected Benefic is 200 potency with a 250% shield totalling 700 potency, always. And the 500 potency shield is equal to Divine Benison. Now since SCH doesnt have a second tier heal its critlo is acceptable, but if the potency was bumped up to 400, 400 plus a 125% heal would be 900 potency with a critlo being 1400, that's double what Cure II and Benefic II are. So in order for them to stay "relevant" they would need an increase in potency. But then you run into an over inflation of potencies that isn't needed.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

As a SCH main I can honestly say I have never had issues with button bloat. That being said, "button bloat" while definitely a thing, has factors involved, like playstyle, system, and comfortability. Healers have very little button bloat in comparison to jobs that don't get skill upgrades, looking at you BLM.

That aside, I think you are showing some lack of knowledge with regards to the healers and their toolkit. While you can make the claims about upgrading Cure, Benefic, Medic, and Helios, with updated MP costs, Physick. Adlo, and Lustrate, do not fit in with that premise. In fact I figured someone would mention Lustrate when it is irrelevant to the skills in question.

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I specifically said combined they make physick redundant from lv 50. Physick also shares Benefic and Cure 's traits of being too weak for ShB content while the job it is attached to is also overblown with far better options that is why it is regarded as useless. Sch just hits this earlier than the other two healers.

If Adlo's direct healing was uped with a slight lowering of the shield given would you care for Physick at that point? people do not care now which is why it is regarded as a just exists button.

As regards to button bloat back before cross hotbar was a thing I had 3 hotbars for sch(1 heals, 1 Dps, 1 half fairy, with some overlap between the three) on controller this was perfectly manageable to me yet I could certainly see where people may say that was too much. Now KB+mouse users have a different setup and button bloat is far less likely to occur here.

So bloat usually stemmed from controller side of things, nowadays bloat of number of abilities should be a non issue but we can have an overabundance of abilities which do not function within the current environment the game has gone in since they were introduced. These skills like the aforementioned benefic,cure,physick, medica could be reworked into the upgrade system and it wouldn't harm any of the healers(really wouldn't harm sch losing physick at 30 for slightly better heal from adlo though I think all 3 upgrades to base heal should have a lower mp cost than currently) this can give the devs more freedom to add without having to worry number of abilities are getting too high again.

Just to save myself what may get pointed out.
-adlo is combined direct heal + mitigation
-adlo non crit < cure 2
-adlo crit > crit cure 2
So long as this remains it will be fine.

ch would be fine without Physick the years have already proven that for me.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

While you can make the claims about upgrading Cure, Benefic, Medic, and Helios, with updated MP costs, Physick. Adlo, and Lustrate, do not fit in with that premise. In fact I figured someone would mention Lustrate when it is irrelevant to the skills in question.

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Lustrate does not fit in with Cure I/II, Benefic I/II and Physick/Adloquium as its an OGCD, and has a different opportunity cost. It fits more with Excogitation, Tetragramaton and Essential Dignity (does not fit perfectly, but fits better). Adloquium does match pretty well with Cure II and Benefic II in one of its two main use cases, which is GCD healing a single target taking heavy, continuous damage. Like tanks during some trash pulls once your OGCDs are exhausted. This is because in those cases you are not using the shield as mitigation (eHP), but simply as effective healing. The other main use is obviously shielding, if the target is gonna be one-shot otherwise, or to use Deployment Tactics.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Physick does correspond to Cure and Benefic, but Adlo and Lustrate correspond to Regen and Aspected Benefic, and Tetragramaton and Essential Dignity, respectively.

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Adloquium does not correspond to Regen in any shape or form. Noct Asp. Benefic corresponds to Adloquium and Diur. Asp Benefic corresponds to Regen, since AST sects try to mimic both SCH and WHM, but those skills have vastly different use cases. You would never spam Regen on a tank during a trash pull, but you would absolutely spam Adlo. Keeping a Regen up at all times on a tank might be a good idea, but it is futile to keep an Adlo up. Them seemingly occupying the same skill slot does not make them correspond in use.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Also more frequent use of the base heal, as needed, show how good one is as a healer.

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They are very rarely the most efficient tools on hand. They are in fact usually good indicators of a bad healer. Efficient and planned skill use shows how good one is as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Also in regards to the possible Physick into Adlo upgrade that Volkaj suggested. Currently, Adlo is 300 potency, with a 125% shield totalling 675 potency normally, 1050 when crit. Aspected Benefic is 200 potency with a 250% shield totalling 700 potency, always. And the 500 potency shield is equal to Divine Benison. Now since SCH doesnt have a second tier heal its critlo is acceptable, but if the potency was bumped up to 400, 400 plus a 125% heal would be 900 potency with a critlo being 1400, that's double what Cure II and Benefic II are. So in order for them to stay "relevant" they would need an increase in potency. But then you run into an over inflation of potencies that isn't needed.

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My rework also reduces the shield % to 80%, and removes the double-on-crit effect. Which gives a ~720 potency heal per cast, about the same as Cure II/Benefic II.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

I specifically said combined they make physick redundant from lv 50. Physick also shares Benefic and Cure 's traits of being too weak for ShB content while the job it is attached to is also overblown with far better options that is why it is regarded as useless. Sch just hits this earlier than the other two healers.

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Something to remember is that we are still early in the expansion, too often people get use to the "end game" prior to a major patch/expansion and get shocked when there is a sudden spike in potency outputs, whether a dip or increase. Currently, in all 470 gear, Physick heal for about 1/5th of my health, and back in the day at level 50 it was also around 1/5th, though near endgame it got closer to 1/4th, so nothing has really changed. If anything what has changed is an emphasis on a healer to focus on healing just a bit more.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

If Adlo's direct healing was uped with a slight lowering of the shield given would you care for Physick at that point? people do not care now which is why it is regarded as a just exists button.

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That would defeat the entire purpose of SCH's gimmick. Your goal is to use the gimmick heals combined with the basic heals. That's why the Physick to Adlo suggestion doesnt work since Adlo is a gimmick heal not a basic heal. At that point it become what I mentioned earlier, just placing the gimmicks on the basic heals, which just feels lazy.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Just to save myself what may get pointed out.
-adlo is combined direct heal + mitigation
-adlo non crit < cure 2
-adlo crit > crit cure 2
So long as this remains it will be fine.

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This is not inaccurate, but the values matter as well. Currently, they are at 675 and 700 base, and 1050 and 700 crit. But what alternative direct healing potency would you give to Adlo to maintain this set up. Keeping in mind that the Shield must be of a decent value and cannot be significantly less in comparison to the AST shield. Currently the AST shield is a 500 potency compared to SCH's 375 for A. Benefic/Adlo and
250 and 225 for A. Helios/Succor. With combined potencies of 700/675 and 450/405, the difference offset by the faerie. The shield needs to be of a decent value otherwise it might as well be direct healing at that point.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Lustrate does not fit in with Cure I/II, Benefic I/II and Physick/Adloquium as its an OGCD, and has a different opportunity cost. It fits more with Excogitation, Tetragramaton and Essential Dignity (does not fit perfectly, but fits better). Adloquium does match pretty well with Cure II and Benefic II in one of its two main use cases, which is GCD healing a single target taking heavy, continuous damage. Like tanks during some trash pulls once your OGCDs are exhausted. This is because in those cases you are not using the shield as mitigation (eHP), but simply as effective healing. The other main use is obviously shielding, if the target is gonna be one-shot otherwise, or to use Deployment Tactics.

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Yes, that was my point. Lustrate is an oGCD heal compared to Physick and Adlo which are GCD.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Adloquium does not correspond to Regen in any shape or form. Noct Asp. Benefic corresponds to Adloquium and Diur. Asp Benefic corresponds to Regen, since AST sects try to mimic both SCH and WHM, but those skills have vastly different use cases. You would never spam Regen on a tank during a trash pull, but you would absolutely spam Adlo. Keeping a Regen up at all times on a tank might be a good idea, but it is futile to keep an Adlo up. Them seemingly occupying the same skill slot does not make them correspond in use.

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The gimmick, Adlo is the gimmick heal, like Regen and Aspected Benefic. That's what I was saying. What they do is irrelevant, since they are the GCD heal with the gimmick attached.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

They are very rarely the most efficient tools on hand. They are in fact usually good indicators of a bad healer. Efficient and planned skill use shows how good one is as a healer.

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Never said they were efficient, I said their use, as needed, shows how good someone is. As the lower heal prevents over healing when needed.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

My rework also reduces the shield % to 80%, and removes the double-on-crit effect. Which gives a ~720 potency heal per cast, about the same as Cure II/Benefic II.

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At that point it's questionable if the shield is even worth it, as well as it lining up with my assessment that at that point all of the base heals might as well just have the gimmick attached, which should not become a thing. I know the 320 isnt too far off from the 375 it currently is, but a shield that's less than 100% feels wrong some how.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

What they do is irrelevant, since they are the GCD heal with the gimmick attached.

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I... huh... what? You're saying that what the skills actually do is irrelevant?

Lemme just... respectfully disagree. No, what the skills actually do matters.
My suggestion on having Physick upgrade into Adloquium is based on how the two are actually used, and how they work. Not on how one is supposed to be a "gimmick".

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

I... huh... what? You're saying that what the skills actually do is irrelevant?

Lemme just... respectfully disagree. No, what the skills actually do matters.
My suggestion on having Physick upgrade into Adloquium is based on how the two are actually used, and how they work. Not on how one is supposed to be a "gimmick".

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You are missing what I am saying. I am saying whether the it's a regen or a shield doesnt matter. All of those heals are the GCD heal with the gimmick attached.

Additionally, Adlo unlike Cure II and Benefic II cannot be spammed, not that spamming should be advocated. That's another reason that an upgrade to Adlo doesn't make sense. I don't necessarily disagree with the Cure and Benefic upgrades, but they aren't gimmicks like Adlo, we'd need a Physick II, but I doubt anyone really wants that.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

You are missing what I am saying. I am saying whether the it's a regen or a shield doesnt matter.

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Apparently no, I was not. I absolutely disagree. Whether it gives a regen or a shield absolutely does matter.
It completely changes how the skill is used and how they operate efficiency-wise.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Additionally, Adlo unlike Cure II and Benefic II cannot be spammed, not that spamming should be advocated. That's another reason that an upgrade to Adlo doesn't make sense. I don't necessarily disagree with the Cure and Benefic upgrades, but they aren't gimmicks like Adlo, we'd need a Physick II, but I doubt anyone really wants that.

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If your Adloquium shield is completely gone by the time the next one lands, you can absolutely spam it back to back. Or with a DPS GCD inbetween, depending on the situation. Like I said, this sometimes happens in heavy-hitting trash pulls that draw too long (when your other tools are on cooldown). This not even counting Emergency Tactics.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Apparently no, I was not. I absolutely disagree. Whether it gives a regen or a shield absolutely does matter.
It completely changes how the skill is used and how they operate efficiency-wise.

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Again you are missing the point. All 3 are the gimmick heal, that's it. Of course what they do matters in conjunction to each healers kit, but they are the GCD heals with the gimmick attached. Of course when a true comparison is needed Adlo will bounce off of a Noct A. Benefic and Regen a Diur A. Benefic. But for the purpose of what this topic is about a finer assessment isn't warranted as it's not the gimmicks themselves that are being compared.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

If your Adloquium shield is completely gone by the time the next one lands, you can absolutely spam it back to back. Or with a DPS GCD inbetween, depending on the situation. Like I said, this sometimes happens in heavy-hitting trash pulls that draw too long (when your other tools are on cooldown). This not even counting Emergency Tactics.

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That is possible, but then at that point why wouldn't you just use a more powerful direct heal instead?

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Again you are missing the point. All 3 are the gimmick heal, that's it. Of course what they do matters in conjunction to each healers kit, but they are the GCD heals with the gimmick attached. Of course when a true comparison is needed Adlo will bounce off of a Noct A. Benefic and Regen a Diur A. Benefic. But for the purpose of what this topic is about a finer assessment isn't warranted as it's not the gimmicks themselves that are being compared.

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The gimmicks themselves are not compared. The skills as a whole are. The main situation where you would want to spam Cure II/Benefic II (continuous heavy single-target damage) can be served just as well by spamming Adlo. Actual usage scenarios and efficiency are what make skills useful or not. Keeping Physick around just because Adlo has a gimmick isn't gonna make it useful.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

That is possible, but then at that point why wouldn't you just use a more powerful direct heal instead?

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Because it would be on cooldown? I mention it literally on the same line: "when your other tools are on cooldown".
The same applies to WHM and AST; you use Cure II/Benefic II when more efficient tools (Tetra, Bene, Afflatus, ED, etc.) are on cooldown and/or already in play (Regen, Diur. Asp. Benefic).

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

The gimmicks themselves are not compared. The skills as a whole are. The main situation where you would want to spam Cure II/Benefic II (continuous heavy single-target damage) can be served just as well by spamming Adlo. Actual usage scenarios and efficiency are what make skills useful or not. Keeping Physick around just because Adlo has a gimmick isn't gonna make it useful.

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Never mind, you are missing the point, and I don't know how to make it easier to understand, other than saying that one set of heals are the basic variety, that just do pure heals, and the other the gimmick heals, which provide an additional effect per healer. One set cannot be compared with heals from the other set.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Because it would be on cooldown? I mention it literally on the same line: "when your other tools are on cooldown".
The same applies to WHM and AST; you use Cure II/Benefic II when more efficient tools (Tetra, Bene, Afflatus, ED, etc.) are on cooldown and/or already in play (Regen, Diur. Asp. Benefic).

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The other tools are irrelevant to this conversation though, since they are oGCD/Guage heals and aren't directly comparable to the basic heals or the gimmick heals; regardless of their potencies or any gimmicks attached.

Additionally, I was stating that, at that point, Adlo would work better as a pure heal. Not using one of the oGCD pure heals. Having the shield broken almost the second its applied is not a good thing.

Maybe this will make it clearer to understand. If the healing spells see an upgrade as people have suggested, and Physick did become Adlo as you suggest. That would leave WHM with Cure II, Medica II, and Regen, AST with Benefic II, A. Helios, and A. Benefic, but that only leaves SCH with Adlo and Succor; where is SCH GCD pure heal? They don't have one because it was "removed/upgraded" so why do the other healers still get to keep a pure heal and a seperate gimmick heal.

At that point it would only make sense to "bake" the gimmick into the other two pure heals as well. But at that point the heals would need to be majorly adjusted to compansate for a continuous application of the gimmick. Not to mention the possibility of overheating would increase, especially on regen heals. That's why, within the purpose of this topic, you can't compare Adlo with Cure II and Benefic II. Systematically, the heals serve different functions. Adlo serves the same function as Regen and A. Benefic.

Like I have said, I can see the reasoning behind wanting to upgrade Cure and Benefic to Cure II and Benefic II, regardless of whether I agree with it or not. But the same doesn't work for Adlo, because it is a different class of heal.

EDIT: there is also the fact that the Shield has a time limit attached. Regardless of whether healing is needed or not, once the shield dissipates, the players HP pool reverts to their actual white HP bar, so you would still need to heal them up with a pure oGCD or GCD heal. If a pure heal was used from the start, that added heal wouldn't be needed.

Either way, you shouldn't spam Adlo because of shield delay. You're overwriting the shield before it's even being consumed
In case you don't know - Shield Delay is a 1 second (ish) time frame where the buff is on the the target, but doesn't actually take damage for them. (I believe it affects Hallowed Ground and Superbolide too, as those are treated as infinite HP shields)

In desparate situations like those, you should be alternating between Physik and Adlo.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Something to remember is that we are still early in the expansion, too often people get use to the "end game" prior to a major patch/expansion and get shocked when there is a sudden spike in potency outputs, whether a dip or increase. Currently, in all 470 gear, Physick heal for about 1/5th of my health, and back in the day at level 50 it was also around 1/5th, though near endgame it got closer to 1/4th, so nothing has really changed. If anything what has changed is an emphasis on a healer to focus on healing just a bit more.



That would defeat the entire purpose of SCH's gimmick. Your goal is to use the gimmick heals combined with the basic heals. That's why the Physick to Adlo suggestion doesnt work since Adlo is a gimmick heal not a basic heal. At that point it become what I mentioned earlier, just placing the gimmicks on the basic heals, which just feels lazy.



This is not inaccurate, but the values matter as well. Currently, they are at 675 and 700 base, and 1050 and 700 crit. But what alternative direct healing potency would you give to Adlo to maintain this set up. Keeping in mind that the Shield must be of a decent value and cannot be significantly less in comparison to the AST shield. Currently the AST shield is a 500 potency compared to SCH's 375 for A. Benefic/Adlo and
250 and 225 for A. Helios/Succor. With combined potencies of 700/675 and 450/405, the difference offset by the faerie. The shield needs to be of a decent value otherwise it might as well be direct healing at that point.

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Few things, i think your missing the point why adlo is the gcd that is spammed rather than Physick, critlo gives a way better breathing room than what Physick can offer, yet critlo is random so can take multiple uses, ET adlo is better than Physick tied to a 30s cd, and you don't start going into gcd healing until your out of resources where you want to be able to give yourself as big as a time window as you can get thus adlo is preferred due to critlo.

Did I say to lower the overall potency of Adlo, no, I said could up the direct heal while lowering shield potency this can leave the overall value the same but change how much upfront healing is done.

The basic heals already have gimmicks except Physick but they all go heavily underutilised. Cure 1 has a chance to make cure 2 free, Benefic 1 has a chance to make next benefic 2 crit. Basic gimmicks just like a heal provides a shield with a chance for double shield, yet you are fine with their gimmicks being gone into the upgrade system but sch's one is a nope can't happen kinda double standard there. Interaction may be different but core premise is the same you need to spam gcd heals.

If Physick actually interacted with sch's kit in any way it could have a case for staying around but it doesn't it is the redundant heal and has been for a very long time it is just now that Benefic and Cure have caught up to it.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Never mind, you are missing the point, and I don't know how to make it easier to understand, other than saying that one set of heals are the basic variety, that just do pure heals, and the other the gimmick heals, which provide an additional effect per healer. One set cannot be compared with heals from the other set.

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Why not? You keep saying I'm missing your point, but you seem to be splitting up healer kits and comparing arbitrarily, without concern for how it actually plays. Sure, if you limit your view to just pure GCD heals without any other effects SCH would be missing something, but in the same vein if you limit your view to shielding GCDs then WHM doesn't have anything. You also keep ignoring that the basis for my suggestion is on how and when the skills are actually used in content.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

The other tools are irrelevant to this conversation though, since they are oGCD/Guage heals and aren't directly comparable to the basic heals or the gimmick heals; regardless of their potencies or any gimmicks attached.

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That is possible, but then at that point why wouldn't you just use a more powerful direct heal instead?

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If you really mean to say "a more powerful direct GCD heal without a gimmick", then because I would consider the entire kit available to me at that moment, not just an arbitrary subset.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

They don't have one because it was "removed/upgraded" so why do the other healers still get to keep a pure heal and a seperate gimmick heal.

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Because they have different use cases?

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Originally Posted by Eloah

EDIT: there is also the fact that the Shield has a time limit attached. Regardless of whether healing is needed or not, once the shield dissipates, the players HP pool reverts to their actual white HP bar, so you would still need to heal them up with a pure oGCD or GCD heal. If a pure heal was used from the start, that added heal wouldn't be needed.

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You could just wait for a more opportune moment to heal them with it, or use Emergency Tactics.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Either way, you shouldn't spam Adlo because of shield delay. You're overwriting the shield before it's even being consumed
In case you don't know - Shield Delay is a 1 second (ish) time frame where the buff is on the the target, but doesn't actually take damage for them. (I believe it affects Hallowed Ground and Superbolide too, as those are treated as infinite HP shields).

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Does this still apply when the shield buff visibly drops off your target before your second Adlo lands? That was the scenario I was thinking about in terms of Adlo spam. If the shield doesn't drop, then it means your target is taking less than ~300 potency worth of damage per GCD, and you can probably carefully interweave some DPS inbetween casts.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Does this still apply when the shield buff visibly drops off your target before your second Adlo lands? That was the scenario I was thinking about in terms of Adlo spam. If the shield doesn't drop, then it means your target is taking less than ~300 potency worth of damage per GCD, and you can probably carefully interweave some DPS inbetween casts.

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Damage doesn't come out continuously though, even auto attacks. I don't think I've ever cast adlos back to back and not overwritten.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Either way, you shouldn't spam Adlo because of shield delay. You're overwriting the shield before it's even being consumed
In case you don't know - Shield Delay is a 1 second (ish) time frame where the buff is on the the target, but doesn't actually take damage for them. (I believe it affects Hallowed Ground and Superbolide too, as those are treated as infinite HP shields)

In desparate situations like those, you should be alternating between Physik and Adlo.

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Finally, thank you.

Nevermind the fact that not always does a new shield get applied, in which case you just wasted you MP on a less powerful heal upfront with no additional effect.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

snip.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

snip.

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I just can't anymore. Trying to explain to you guys something that is a basic function/premise of this game is futile if you aren't going to take into account that you are comparing apples and oranges. Both may be fruit, but they are different kinds. The entire point of this topic seems to be derailed all because you think Adloquium should get the same treatment as Cure II and Benefic II, even though they are functionally and fundamentally different.

Whatever, fine you win, happy. Now if you excuse me, I have to raise the Tank, they died during this tedious back and forth. I ran out of MP spamming Adlo and had no Aetherflow left, how did that happen?