Why is RDM invisible right now? Where is the outrage?

In order to justify RDMs lower DPS, and lower than SMN, you need 4+ deaths within the same minute.
4 deaths... let that sink in.
1st death, healer#1 gets.
2nd, by 2nd healer.
3rd, you or SMN can get.
4th, no healer or SMN can get this one.

The tax on DPS is far too high for being able to raise the 4th+ person.
Chances are, the run is either lost. (savage) or the run is saved, when you can just faceroll it in a normal group.
Can a group be really good, and save a run from more than 4 deaths in a minute? yes, but for them to be that skilled, chances are, they wont have that happen again, its too unlikely for players that skilled to run into that problem.

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Originally Posted by MaraD_

In order to justify RDMs lower DPS, and lower than SMN, you need 4+ deaths within the same minute.
4 deaths... let that sink in.
1st death, healer#1 gets.
2nd, by 2nd healer.
3rd, you or SMN can get.
4th, no healer or SMN can get this one.

The tax on DPS is far too high for being able to raise the 4th+ person.
Chances are, the run is either lost. (savage) or the run is saved, when you can just faceroll it in a normal group.
Can a group be really good, and save a run from more than 4 deaths in a minute? yes, but for them to be that skilled, chances are, they wont have that happen again, its too unlikely for players that skilled to run into that problem.

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To be fair, there's still the game outside of savage. You can force 7 other literal chimps to clear normal raids. Also when the new PoD comes, rdm is the only job that will do the competitive solo runs on the scoreboard.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

To be fair, there's still the game outside of savage. You can force 7 other literal chimps to clear normal raids. Also when the new PoD comes, rdm is the only job that will do the competitive solo runs on the scoreboard.

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And how does new deep dungeon apply to solo runs when you can't verraise yourself?

Red mages can do it because of Vercure, and that’s literally the only times it’s a relevant skill for it’s heal effect. Any other cast is to trigger dual case when you have no target.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

however the rez sickness is a factor, as they're receiving it regardless. But 2-4 quick raises through a fight could add up to 1.3k pretty fast depending on what healers are doing, and the condition of their swift, or how close those deaths were together. It shouldn't come to that, but in prog? It's likely to happen. Even still for new groups learning the fight or inexperienced healers, having somebody else to soak the raise costs makes things a lot smoother. Having that raise so readily available will just let you brute force through a party failing mechanics to see the fight fully, and then clear it in less pulls.

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The problem with prog job - is that its dps (apart from e1 adds) is irrelevant, 0 dps raise+mechanics only rdm is as helpful to brute forcing party to see all mechanics as a 99% one, there's no incentive to learning to play it further than binding jolt to 1 and raise to 2 and then switching to a normal job for actual clear.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Taking away raise wouldn't strip RDM of it's identity
Yeah its a common spell RDM had in past games but so was Protect for WHM

They are not gonna take it away in ShB RDM will most likely only get pot buff and we gotta deal with storm blood rdm with verscathe and Scorch for two more years

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We should strip Vercure too! And dualcast as well , red mage doesn't need those and it won't take it's identity away

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

We should strip Vercure too! And dualcast as well , red mage doesn't need those and it won't take it's identity away

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whats even the purpose of this comment? are you mad that Raise doesn't mean anything to RDM?

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Originally Posted by MaelleRiou

Red mage is the training wheels for raiding. They're useful for learning the fights, but once the raid group has got the mechanics mostly down and are ready to push for kills it's better to have a black mage. It's probably not fair to heavily penalize red mage for that since it's basically just there for learning fights.

But red mage isn't significantly behind summoner as things currently are. It's just that the top half of DPS is way above the bottom half. Though I believe the life letter promised to adjust that, so may be better come end of October.

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There shouldn’t be jobs like that. No other role has a job that’s good for only progression.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

There shouldn’t be jobs like that. No other role has a job that’s good for only progression.

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well some people also thought this with WHM
but it doesn't make it any less of a meme title

"Prog job" is like a joke people have taken too seriously

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Originally Posted by wereotter

And how does new deep dungeon apply to solo runs when you can't verraise yourself?

Red mages can do it because of Vercure, and that’s literally the only times it’s a relevant skill for it’s heal effect. Any other cast is to trigger dual case when you have no target.

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More has to do with being a hybrid in general. But also to point out that the job has areas of strength that it demolishes other jobs on.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

More has to do with being a hybrid in general. But also to point out that the job has areas of strength that it demolishes other jobs on.

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Sure maybe normal duties.. but while it is not completely non relavant jobs should be balanced from the harder content and not from just running potd or regular duties. (not implying you btw)
Harder content is where the picture becomes very clear just how weak RM currently is

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Originally Posted by Maero

Sure maybe normal duties.. but while it is not completely non relavant jobs should be balanced from the harder content and not from just running potd or regular duties. (not implying you btw)
Harder content is where the picture becomes very clear just how weak RM currently is

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To be fair, those solo runs were a decently competitive thing. And difficult.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...dcgroup=Primal

And even in savage, I still don't feel they're as horrible as everyone says they are. They're low for sure, but I think it would have taken longer for my group to clear without one. It's a strong learning tool to make people know the fight faster, and then it still has the damage to clear.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

whats even the purpose of this comment? are you mad that Raise doesn't mean anything to RDM?

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Raise it's part of red mage's kit, it's part of its support utility just like vercure is. I like having my raise utility and I don't feel it's useless.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

Taking away raise wouldn't strip RDM of it's identity, Yeah its a common spell RDM had in past games but so was Protect for WHM

They are not gonna take it away in ShB RDM will most likely only get pot buff and we gotta deal with storm blood rdm with verscathe and Scorch for two more years

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Personally(my own feelings towards RDMs implementation) You're so right and i want to quit the job because of it. IDEK if potency buffs would make me like this job anymore, perhaps its fatigue but the job just seems so uninspired beyond how cool it looks. On BLM and WHM, Fire/Stone magic was damage, Aero/Thunder were dots, Ice was Mp recovery. the spells had variety. on RDM, the spells are all different versions of the same thing with the same boring casting animation. I was really hoping we'd See more sword magic(Alisae had that giant sword attack in 3.4) but that didn't come, more enchanced magic(nope), better AoE(in dungeons i guess) They must have thought they struck gold with RDM because they didn't improve on much of anything and the job just doesn't feel fun. the job was already teetering on redundancy in SB but it was new enough that i'd hope SHB they'd could improve on it. I made a post called "I don't like Stormblood Red Mage" to highlight the fact that RDM didn't really evolve. Im a diehard player and i want to stay strong but personally, i hate the RNG of F/S procs, How late the Opener is, the stupidity of single target Moulinet, the contradictory nature of the Melee Combo and it's inflexibility within the rotation versus SOME mechanics, Reprise!, Being the weakest job in the game.

(Objectively speaking) Dancer is supposedly lower than RDM but there are a number of factors to consider, the first is that RDPS scales better with comps. the best jobs in the game are BLM DRG MNK and NIN/SAM as similarly strong options but weaker results. RDM can't work with the best 3, BLM DRG and MNK because embolden gets weaker with another caster making BLM and RDM worse and thats not even considering the 1% party buff dex jobs bring. Dancer on the other hand works very well with BLM DRG and MNK even if it isn't as strong as BRD or MCH. this means Dancer is inherently better than RDM and arguably SMN too putting the true lowest jobs as the casters that aren't BLM and the imbalance of it all is staggering. the community thinks it's like this (Melee Caster Ranged) but what it actually is (BLM Melee Ranged SMN and RDM) as soon as the ranged potency buffs come through, this will be made glaringly obvious how lop sided the caster role is.
Dancers best possible comp for their rdps contribution is probably SAM DNC BLM NIN. RDM would be SAM NIN DNC RDM as these jobs synergize the best with their burst windows and raid buffs but if we're talking the objective best comp, DRG/NIN BLM and MNK.
only and ranged or another BLM could hope to fill that slot with the possibility going to a 3rd melee before SMN or RDM.

thus the dps tier list is more like this BLM MNK DRG NIN SAM BRD MCH DNC SMN RDM
Notice how close the ranged and Melee are
this means that regardless of how weak the role is overall, it's incredibly well balanced amongst itself
Melee is similar to this albeit more overbuffed.
Casters on the other hand are the Highest or the absolute lowest, it's the worst balanced role in the game by far right now with the best and worst having a 15% difference and the idea of thinking about the comp in a vaccum doesn't make RDM and SMN better like it does for Dancer because dancer isn't competing with BLM which is the absolute top. RDM players are worried because nothing we say is heeded and i honestly am tired of putting time and attention into a job SE clearly didn't do the same to. BLM looks polished with so much love and care but RDM got the scraps and just has to deal.

(personal feelings again) Bottom Dps, Janitor, boring and uninspire rotation, bad synergy within it's role, This job is garbage in my personal opinion but if you like it because you can "Turn your brain off" go ahead i guess
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...Stormblood-RDM

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

To be fair, those solo runs were a decently competitive thing. And difficult.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...dcgroup=Primal

And even in savage, I still don't feel they're as horrible as everyone says they are. They're low for sure, but I think it would have taken longer for my group to clear without one. It's a strong learning tool to make people know the fight faster, and then it still has the damage to clear.

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then make it a Limited Job, isn't that what BLU was designed for, a "Solo Experience", but the same devs who can't balance rdm decided to prevent BLU from doing solo content. just make both RDM and BLU limited jobs so we can get a real caster, Time Mage(NOT AST as they yeeted all the time magic) maybe chemist, necromancer, idk but anything better than the one size fits all utility and value RDM seems to carry.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

then make it a Limited Job, isn't that what BLU was designed for, a "Solo Experience", but the same devs who can't balance rdm decided to prevent BLU from doing solo content. just make both RDM and BLU limited jobs so we can get a real caster, Time Mage(NOT AST as they yeeted all the time magic) maybe chemist, necromancer, idk but anything better than the one size fits all utility and value RDM seems to carry.

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RDM was designed to be a red mage, and they did it well. A jack of all trades, master of none job, as it is in every game since its conception. It can do savage, it can do solo content (better than any other job), it excels highly in open world content, and in exchange for its lower damage it can carry a group that has zero idea whats going on through any fight without a harsh dps check. Idk if you knew what a red mage is when you picked up this job and wanted it to be a black mage.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

if you knew what a red mage is when you picked up this job and wanted it to be a black mage.

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Ah, the classic Red Mage wanting Black Mage Damage Strawman.

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Raise it's part of red mage's kit, it's part of its support utility just like vercure is. I like having my raise utility and I don't feel it's useless.

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Well yeah raise is apart of RDM kit
but its Role skill tier utility

Its not something you plan around

Raise is not integral to RDM kit
Its just there and it's not what makes Red mage a Red mage you can like it and i get people like that quick raise when ever aspect
But its not needed if it goes or if it gets a Six sided star effect w/e its not gonna kill RDM identity and should not be considered some Anchor to RDM dps

Vercure is fine ,need something for overworld sustainability

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

RDM was designed to be a red mage, and they did it well. A jack of all trades, master of none job, as it is in every game since its conception. It can do savage, it can do solo content (better than any other job), it excels highly in open world content, and in exchange for its lower damage it can carry a group that has zero idea whats going on through any fight without a harsh dps check. Idk if you knew what a red mage is when you picked up this job and wanted it to be a black mage.

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I know I didn't pick a DPS because I love raising other players.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

Ah, the classic Red Mage wanting Black Mage Damage Strawman.

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It's not really a strawman when the red mage community itself can't decide on what the difference should be.

There are those out there who have said that if you take the top 4 compared to the bottom 4, the difference with all 4 added together in each shouldn't exceed ~1000. I doubt they took scalability into account, but that basically means at current numbers no one should exceed 200-250 dps from each other.

Which is basically the same range of an RNG swing of really good or bad crit luck for frequency and what crits.

AKA "X wanting Y's damage"

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It's not really a strawman when the red mage community itself can't decide on what the difference should be.

There are those out there who have said that if you take the top 4 compared to the bottom 4, the difference with all 4 added together in each shouldn't exceed ~1000. I doubt they took scalability into account, but that basically means at current numbers no one should exceed 200-250 dps from each other.

Which is basically the same range of an RNG swing of really good or bad crit luck for frequency and what crits.

AKA "X wanting Y's damage"

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Yeah I'll never understand why people will say within X dps instead of a percent.

To me, being 6% behind Black mage in total RDPS is enough of a raise tax, it shouldn't be 11%. 6% still keeps BLM relevant. RDM/SMN aren't being punished with low damage to protect the melee, its to protect the BLM. [Which in itself is already a sort of compromised from the get go system. Really all or none should have it if they share the same role in terms of strong recovery/defensive utility. The whole prog vs farm meta that only exists for casters is busted.]

The melee are where there really is an issue if we are trying to keep a system where there is a raise tax. RDM/SMN should be competing with the melee for the second slot, doing the similar damage as the two lowest melee, which just isn't possible because it would put them too close to BLM.

To do this RDM is going to need magical embolden on top of potency buffs so that we can finally "be friends" with BLM to reach a non-gimped party comp and melee are going to need adjustments.

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Originally Posted by Zyneste

To do this RDM is going to need magical embolden on top of potency buffs so that we can finally "be friends" with BLM to reach a non-gimped party comp and melee are going to need adjustments.

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To me this is the easiest, most sensible fix, similar to Brotherhood.

Red Mage is in this weird place where they actively don't want other casters (and other casters actively don't want them).

Changing Embolden to all damage already does wonders for closing the gap. A few QoL changes and some uptime aides would cap this off nicely.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

RDM was designed to be a red mage, and they did it well. A jack of all trades, master of none job, as it is in every game since its conception. It can do savage, it can do solo content (better than any other job), it excels highly in open world content, and in exchange for its lower damage it can carry a group that has zero idea whats going on through any fight without a harsh dps check. Idk if you knew what a red mage is when you picked up this job and wanted it to be a black mage.

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Jack of all trades master of none, Can't Tank, Can't Heal, Weakest DPS. Jack of what trade?, Master of necromancy

harsh DPS checks, RDM can't carry any new party through anything unless it's a geared RDM in a group where people have gear. good luck doing that week one, two, or 3 even. RDM shines when the RDM knows the content and some of the people have cleared or have brain cells in a group of players who can't actually do the content. it's a job that exist to carry bad players and probably get some milage in early blind progression.

things id like added to RDM outside of pot buffs would be

Dual cast gets fixed so stuff like Sprint doesn't eat it
enchanted reprise procs a dual cast (give this move some damn meaning)
manafictation buff should be stronger or last longer
and Scorch should work like verstone/fire where you have a bit of breathing room to use it and/or proc a dual cast

Hmm when i picked RDM i thought it was magic ranged dps, which is... exactly same thing as BLM, isn't it? ^_^

Raise is a white magic spell therefore, Red mage has it. What makes a red mage is being able to utilize black and white magic spells but cannot cast higher Tier black and white magic spells.

Even raise was in FFXI red mage's kit

https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Red_Mage

So no, raise is not unheard of to have in red mage's kit

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

RDM was designed to be a red mage, and they did it well. A jack of all trades, master of none job, as it is in every game since its conception. It can do savage, it can do solo content (better than any other job), it excels highly in open world content, and in exchange for its lower damage it can carry a group that has zero idea whats going on through any fight without a harsh dps check. Idk if you knew what a red mage is when you picked up this job and wanted it to be a black mage.

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Except it can't. You are far more likely to progress faster with a Black Mage doing nearly 2,000 more damage than a Red Mage who had to several several people, which further gimps themselves. Basically, Red Mage is good for one thing: prog. Once you've seen every mechanic, switch to Black Mage because it's flat out better in every capacity. And that's bad design.

Additionally, battle Raise gets vastly overrated. Red Mage is severely gimped for having to utilize Verraise more than sporadically. The healers should always prioritize raising before Red Mage or Summoner. So this means you need three deaths to occur in quick enough succession. How often are those runs recoverable at a Savage level?

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Raise is a white magic spell therefore, Red mage has it. What makes a red mage is being able to utilize black and white magic spells but cannot cast higher Tier black and white magic spells.

Even raise was in FFXI red mage's kit

https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Red_Mage

So no, raise is not unheard of to have in red mage's kit

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I never said it wasn't i also even said that raise was a thing RDM can learn
but its nots needed to be a RDM especially when you have a choice to learn Raise for RDM in most FF games

A choice? In some FF games, it was mandatory, also healing too.


It's not needed to be a red mage? So what mages a red mage then? You want to take it's white magic support so it can just to damage only?

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

A choice? In some FF games, it was mandatory, also healing too.


It's not needed to be a red mage? So what mages a red mage then? You want to take it's white magic support so it can just to damage only?

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well it is a DPS so i would hope it does damage

it would still be a red mage if raise goes
it will still have its White magic bar and ver holy so that aspect isn't going anywhere
RDM has so much potential to be a support DPS with white magic like Shell,Invis,Stoneskin,Haste,Nul(element) etc etc
but raise isnt a real support spell

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

What makes a red mage is being able to utilize black and white magic spells but cannot cast higher Tier black and white magic spells.

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Let me stop you right there. A Red Mage is much more than simply a mage that uses both white and black magic. If that was all it is, then it would be nothing more than a weaker sage. No, the true identity of a RDM lies in its versatility, and that means a RDM should be competent not just in black and white spellcasting but also in direct hand-to-hand combat.

Unfortunately, this version of Red Mage is being held back from reaching its true potential because FFXIV is a game being ran by people with a bias in favor of black mage and no desire to ever allow RDM to be anything more than a gimped black mage with a rez. The development team's lack of vision and creative energy is on full display both here and with blue mage, which has been reduced to the status of a limited job as a result.

A true Red Mage would have the tools to slot into a raid in place of a healer, adequately operate as a melee attacker during times of forced movement, and maybe even take a tank buster with some special TLC from a healer who goes out of their way to keep it alive. Instead, what we got was a squishy mage that lacks the firepower of a BLM but does not have any of the true versatility required to make up for it. A cure that you should never use during battle, a raise which admittedly is nice but with a price tag that is far too high, and a fake dualcast that doesn't actually let you cast two spells in one turn (the worst offender as far as I'm concerned) don't get the job done.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Let me stop you right there. A Red Mage is much more than simply a mage that uses both white and black magic. If that was all it is, then it would be nothing more than a weaker sage. No, the true identity of a RDM lies in its versatility, and that means a RDM should be competent not just in black and white spellcasting but also in direct hand-to-hand combat.

Unfortunately, this version of Red Mage is being held back from reaching its true potential because FFXIV is a game being ran by people with a bias in favor of black mage and no desire to ever allow RDM to be anything more than a gimped black mage with a rez. The development team's lack of vision and creative energy is on full display both here and with blue mage, which has been reduced to the status of a limited job as a result.

A true Red Mage would have the tools to slot into a raid in place of a healer, adequately operate as a melee attacker during times of forced movement, and maybe even take a tank buster with some special TLC from a healer who goes out of their way to keep it alive. Instead, what we got was a squishy mage that lacks the firepower of a BLM but does not have any of the true versatility required to make up for it. A cure that you should never use during battle, a raise which admittedly is nice but with a price tag that is far too high, and a fake dualcast that doesn't actually let you cast two spells in one turn (the worst offender as far as I'm concerned) don't get the job done.

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Yeah, this is true for the most part. RDM feels very half baked because it can't be too strong since it's the master of none, and they supposed jack of all trades healer utility is a gcd cure thats even weaker than the regular heals cure 1. vercure is so weak that it couldn't actually heal 1/3rd of a tanks maximum HP in 2 cast. It has no utility to slot in to tanking, it has 1 Melee combo and is otherwise 2.0 BLM where firestarter procs are just 100% instead of being random

Raise is a support spell, what are you on

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

Let me stop you right there. A Red Mage is much more than simply a mage that uses both white and black magic. If that was all it is, then it would be nothing more than a weaker sage. No, the true identity of a RDM lies in its versatility, and that means a RDM should be competent not just in black and white spellcasting but also in direct hand-to-hand combat.

Unfortunately, this version of Red Mage is being held back from reaching its true potential because FFXIV is a game being ran by people with a bias in favor of black mage and no desire to ever allow RDM to be anything more than a gimped black mage with a rez. The development team's lack of vision and creative energy is on full display both here and with blue mage, which has been reduced to the status of a limited job as a result.

A true Red Mage would have the tools to slot into a raid in place of a healer, adequately operate as a melee attacker during times of forced movement, and maybe even take a tank buster with some special TLC from a healer who goes out of their way to keep it alive. Instead, what we got was a squishy mage that lacks the firepower of a BLM but does not have any of the true versatility required to make up for it. A cure that you should never use during battle, a raise which admittedly is nice but with a price tag that is far too high, and a fake dualcast that doesn't actually let you cast two spells in one turn (the worst offender as far as I'm concerned) don't get the job done.

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Yes red mage uses black and white magic and enfeebling spells with dualcast and they use a sword. I know this but they are not stronger than a black or white mage.


From the wiki: Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot. They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest, and equip some heavy armor, but not all of it though they are often relegated to cloth armor.

The Red Mage is a jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none. In certain games, Red Mages have a special ability such as Dualcast which boosts their spell casting efficiency. The standard Red Mage attire consists of red, black, and white clothing, including a red cloak with white or black trimmings, black boots and a red cavalier hat with a white feather


I know what a red mage is, I play it in FFXI

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Originally Posted by Jkap_Goat

Yes red mage uses black and white magic and enfeebling spells with dualcast and they use a sword. I know this but they are not stronger than a black or white mage.


From the wiki: Red Mages typically cast both Black and White Magic and can also wield swords and equip armor that normal Black and White Mages cannot. They are, in essence, among the more versatile characters of the series. However, their versatility comes at a price: their stats are usually low, and they cannot cast higher level spells or use stronger equipment. They can learn many spells, but not the strongest, and equip some heavy armor, but not all of it though they are often relegated to cloth armor.

The Red Mage is a jack-of-all-trades, but a master of none. In certain games, Red Mages have a special ability such as Dualcast which boosts their spell casting efficiency. The standard Red Mage attire consists of red, black, and white clothing, including a red cloak with white or black trimmings, black boots and a red cavalier hat with a white feather


I know what a red mage is, I play it in FFXI

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The problem is in what that says RDM is isn't the same as what the current RDM does.

you can't Tank anything, you'll die to Autos faster than melee
You can't Heal anything, Vercure is too weak to heal Autos, Autos hit for about 15-20k, vercure heals for 10k per GCD. you'll be HP negative everytime you try
you can't DPS much better than any other jobs
your buff doesn't work with casters and healer and your pdps doesn't compensate for that glaring flaw
Verraise is the only thing that makes red mage relevant, NOTHING else.
So tell me, what trades are you the jack of? Necromancy i guess

in 11
RDM could be a tank in niche scenarios
RDM could substitute a Healer very effectively
RDM had potent buffs and debuffs that worked raid wide (refresh being the claim to fame)

im not saying you're wrong in what RDM is, im saying your idea of what RDM should be isn't what it actually is, It's NOT a magical melee hybrid. it's a Casting DPS with an occasional melee range, it's not a enfeebler but it's at least a buffer(albeit limited), it's not a healer hybrid(cure 1 doesn't make WHM a WHM) it's certainly not a tank hybrid. this versatility you speak of doesn't exist because versatility in the holy trinity doesn't work and thats what kills RDM. it could only be a Tank/Healer/or DPS and the same is true of a job like Blue Mage. this is why they made Blue Mage a limited job because it could do way too much for them to realistically make it a DPS/Tank/Healer and RDM feels like it would also be a Limited Job because it's white magic utility is literally 1 cure, raise being on SMN means thats not even healer exclusive utility. RDM shouldn't be a limited job but it honestly feels like the job would've been more faithful as one

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

in 11
RDM could be a tank in niche scenarios
RDM could substitute a Healer very effectively
RDM had potent buffs and debuffs that worked raid wide (refresh being the claim to infamy)

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The dynamics in XI were very different, though. And seeing how RDM was pigeonholed into healing and buffing, I don't see those things as anything to celebrate. I say that as someone who until about 2 weeks ago was playing FFXI. Where despite the recent buff to Composure that tripled (!) enspell damage, we're still getting shoehorned into healing because there's not enough WHMs around and old habits die hard (the fact RDM is several tiers behind everyone else in terms of melee gear doesn't help).

Also, RDM tanking pretty much died when they nerfed enmity coefficients on enfeebles. Best you can hope for now is get a +enmity set and sub PLD for Flash.

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this versatility you speak of doesn't exist because versatility in the holy trinity doesn't work and thats what kills RDM. it could only be a Tank/Healer/or DPS and the same is true of a job like Blue Mage.

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The trinity is not why BLU was turned into a side activity. That job came as it did because the "learn spells from mobs" thing was more important to the devs than anything else. BLU was never a tank, and healing was limited to White Wind or something akin to it. What made it stand out is that its spells were monster skills and some were unique as they had no equivalent with the other mages (in FFVI Strago was the only mage that could deal wind and water damage, for example). BLU could have easily been implemented as a DPS caster akin to Strago, while giving it a balanced kit of spells and do the "learn spells from mobs" thing. You wouldn't be able to learn every mob skill under the sun, but that's never been a detriment to BLU's existence.

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RDM feels like it would also be a Limited Job because it's white magic utility is literally 1 cure, raise being on SMN means thats not even healer exclusive utility. RDM shouldn't be a limited job but it honestly feels like the job would've been more faithful as one

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As I want the idea of limited jobs to vanish and never return, I'm going to disagree here. Designing things for a trinity MMO may require some concessions. Hence why RDM being a DPS with utility is fine with me; the gameplay being spell spam 80% of the time is my main problem with it.

I feel you're really missing the point of what I meant with jack of all trades intentionally. There's more in the game than just savage.

I really have no idea what you want this job to be, but if I recall correctly, you were the person who believed rdm should have the highest rdps. That would be absurd imo.

The problems with RM and i guess smn are not because of blm this expansion. Blm is almost perfect and should not be nerfed, other jobs should be adjusted with gameplay, potencies, etc..
Also SE do not show bias towards blm because it is Yoshis main, did we forget how bad blm has been in the past and how smn eventually always gets buffed to be more powerful?

Truth of the matter is RM is weak AF atm and just feels painful to play.
Embolden is also not as powerful as some still try to make it sound otherwise..
I repeat myself here because how people cannot grasp reality

Most of the RM community are not looking for blm level dmg but slight buffs and tweaks to it's support.
Having been a blm main for 4 and half or so years i was well aware when switching to RM in Stormblood that it would have lower dmg.
This expansion i am DNC main but only have only ran RM @ 80 for limited content because of what i have noted above

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

I feel you're really missing the point of what I meant with jack of all trades intentionally. There's more in the game than just savage.

I really have no idea what you want this job to be, but if I recall correctly, you were the person who believed rdm should have the highest rdps. That would be absurd imo.

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I’ve never once claimed RDM should have the highest rdps, not a single time, nowhere. Please tell me where you got that information from.

Also, Eureka can be rezzed bot with any healer or SMN, not just RDM, HoH has been cleared with more jobs than just RDM, Palace is the only one thats RDM exclusive to the end and even then, thats 4 year old level 60 content. but yeah you're right, the game balance shouldn't revolve around savage. we should factor in 24 man where RDM shines, except you also have 6 healers and even more possible SMNs that can also do it too. please stop perpetuating this idea that casual/old content matters for job balance. Vercure in palace of the dead shouldn't be the reason RDM has the worst position in savage raiding.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The dynamics in XI were very different, though. And seeing how RDM was pigeonholed into healing and buffing, I don't see those things as anything to celebrate. I say that as someone who until about 2 weeks ago was playing FFXI. Where despite the recent buff to Composure that tripled (!) enspell damage, we're still getting shoehorned into healing because there's not enough WHMs around and old habits die hard (the fact RDM is several tiers behind everyone else in terms of melee gear doesn't help).

Also, RDM tanking pretty much died when they nerfed enmity coefficients on enfeebles. Best you can hope for now is get a +enmity set and sub PLD for Flash.
The trinity is not why BLU was turned into a side activity. That job came as it did because the "learn spells from mobs" thing was more important to the devs than anything else. BLU was never a tank, and healing was limited to White Wind or something akin to it. What made it stand out is that its spells were monster skills and some were unique as they had no equivalent with the other mages (in FFVI Strago was the only mage that could deal wind and water damage, for example). BLU could have easily been implemented as a DPS caster akin to Strago, while giving it a balanced kit of spells and do the "learn spells from mobs" thing. You wouldn't be able to learn every mob skill under the sun, but that's never been a detriment to BLU's existence.
As I want the idea of limited jobs to vanish and never return, I'm going to disagree here. Designing things for a trinity MMO may require some concessions. Hence why RDM being a DPS with utility is fine with me; the gameplay being spell spam 80% of the time is my main problem with it.

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BLU isn’t a real job because of its spells, Level 5 petrify, final sting, missile, explosion, white wind, are all ridiculously broken spells to give a dps tank or healer at the same time. BLU currently has quest cap for the amount of spells they have during their leveling and putting that system on endgame content would be an easy way of fixing the (I want to learn through mobs) method of giving them skills. But skills like peculiar light, waxing moon and he above mentioned ones are so broken that there is no realistic way it could have them and be apart of the trinity. RDM in the other hand is apart of the trinity, it just has nothing to separate itself as a hybrid of anything.

i'll find it if i dig deep enough. you thought for rdps it should be rdm/nin>ect.

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Originally Posted by Zerathor

i'll find it if i dig deep enough. you though for rdps it should be rdm/nin>ect.

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start digging