Happy Healer in 5.0 thread

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

We definitely can judge the job from the tooltips, at least anyone with any real experience with the role in question. If it looks and smells like a turd, it probably is a turd, I don’t need to pick it up to examine it or watch it fall from SE’s butt to confirm that

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Whatever ones take on the matter, this definitely provokes... an image

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Imagine if all you had were Flash and defensive cooldowns. No attacks, no clemency, just a non-damaging ability and tools to mitigate damage. Let's take it a bit further and say Flash gave enough enmity that you could use it once a minute and be good. Would you be happy? Especially on fights that don't require running multiple cooldowns at all times?

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This analogy right here needs to be seen by all the antagonistic white knights feigning ignorance on many of our grievances with how healers are being treated. People have very little scope outside of their own limited perspective so perhaps applying these healer changes to their beloved tanks/dps might change their minds? Kind of sad that we have to do that, it isn’t hard to see the massive inconsistency with the roles design philosophies... tanks get some heals, plenty of damage options and mitigation, dps do too, but healers? Screw healers. They just get the bare basics and they BETTER like it.

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

This analogy right here needs to be seen by all the antagonistic white knights feigning ignorance on many of our grievances with how healers are being treated. People have very little scope outside of their own limited perspective so perhaps applying these healer changes to their beloved tanks/dps might change their minds? Kind of sad that we have to do that, it isn’t hard to see the massive inconsistency with the roles design philosophies... tanks get some heals, plenty of damage options and mitigation, dps do too, but healers? Screw healers. They just get the bare basics and they BETTER like it.

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Oddly enough on Reddit there was a guy who did zero dps and just maintained enmity via flash alone. This was during the "Why don't healers do any DPS" days. The run took forever. Now healers can't do much DPS.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...g_nothing_but/

If I recall correctly it was mentioned in one of my threads from a long time ago.

Dear healers who don't dps

This thread needs to be promoted more.

I am so happy to see positive feedback finally instead of complaints. Thank you guys for your awesome positivity.

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

Given the fact that healers are already absolutely bloated with healing options, especially AoE, I really don’t understand how people can still get excited for even more healing on top? If overhealing the hell out of your party is your gig then more power to you, you’ll find the new additions amazing. I however would have loved to see less dumbing down and beating a dead healing horse and give healers some more variety and innovation, not homogenisation and repetitiveness.

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here we go again. finally had a thread of happiness and the true player base feelings for healing and we have that one guy that wants to bring the doom and gloom about innovation and homogenisation that doesnt even exist. The only thing that needs innovation is dungeon design, the open world and graphics.

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Originally Posted by guardin

here we go again. finally had a thread of happiness and the true player base feelings for healing and we have that one guy that wants to bring the doom and gloom about innovation and homogenisation that doesnt even exist. The only thing that needs innovation is dungeon design, the open world and graphics.

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Just because it's your opinion doesn't make it what the "true" player base feels. Those of us that actually know how to use our toolkit can keep a party up with oodles of GCDs and MP to spare, more healing options aren't needed if you utilize what you already have. More options won't change if you can or cannot do that.

I need to get my hands on the jobs to know how i feel about them.

I know exactly what WHM is going to be like, because it's really not changing much. a few more instant gcd abilities and another nuke, still king of MP management. Nothing really important to note about it.

I'm really just curious to know what scholar MP management will be like, if they're going to adjust the MP cost of abilities to make up for the lack of energy drain and the Aetherflow trait. I don't really care about their dps rotation because if i want to dps like that, i just queue as summoner for a better time. I am glad to see that there will be other uses for the fairy gauge instead of one ability.

AST has just been meh to me lately, and that's not changing with anything i've seen.

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Originally Posted by guardin

here we go again. finally had a thread of happiness and the true player base feelings for healing and we have that one guy that wants to bring the doom and gloom about innovation and homogenisation that doesnt even exist. The only thing that needs innovation is dungeon design, the open world and graphics.

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Indeed, here we go again, another troll who’s thinly veiled as a white knight who’s happy to shout down other players concerns whilst spouting his own opinions as “true”. Not hypocritical at all. I’ve never once said other people’s opinions aren’t true just because I disagree with them. Maybe you should be a bit more open minded. Without the so called “doom and gloom”, aka constructive feedback, we wouldn’t have achieved any changes we’ve previously asked for, that’s how change works, you see. The forums aren’t an echo chamber, at least the OP knows that and acknowledges that, maybe take a leaf from his book before trolling.

If SE wants to increase damage going out to make healing more engaging, and make it so you need to spend more gcds on healing and less on dps, I'm fine with that in theory. But I have some concerns.

A. They're going to have to get it right, and this sort of rebalancing, if they're even actually doing it, could cause issues if they go too far with it or don't go far enough and nothing really changes.
B. This likely won't be easily applied to old content, leaving 1-70 content as it is now but with healers having fewer offensive options.
C. Healers still need to dps in quests and solo instance duties, and having that boil down to 'dot nuke nuke nuke dot nuke nuke nuke' could get really tedious.

Obviously healers don't and shouldn't have dps rotations as complex as actual dps, but I worry that they be going a bit too far. Maybe it'll work out in the end but I'm not sure. If this all works out that'll be great, but until we actually see it in action I'm a bit nervous.

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Originally Posted by Cled-cat

This analogy right here needs to be seen by all the antagonistic white knights feigning ignorance on many of our grievances with how healers are being treated. People have very little scope outside of their own limited perspective so perhaps applying these healer changes to their beloved tanks/dps might change their minds? Kind of sad that we have to do that, it isn’t hard to see the massive inconsistency with the roles design philosophies... tanks get some heals, plenty of damage options and mitigation, dps do too, but healers? Screw healers. They just get the bare basics and they BETTER like it.

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Except the analogy is garbage.

Healers got a uniform healing kit. Tanks got a uniform mitigation kit.
Enmity was completely wiped out from any management from everyone.
Healers got a uniform DPS kit. Tanks have -had- a uniform DPS kit.

Tanks have had a spam combo, a maintenance combo, and now an AoE combo.
Healers have a spam spell, a maintenance spell, and an aoe spell.

The primary difference between tanks come from the way their Ability / Supplemental kit works.
The primary difference between healers come from the way their Ability / Supplemental kit works.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Tanks have had a spam combo, a maintenance combo, and now an AoE combo.
Healers have a spam spell, a maintenance spell, and an aoe spell.

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I can't tell for sure what the scope of your rebuttal is. Maybe you're just commenting on the analogy or maybe it's also a comment on how healers are ok. But if it's the later, I like how it totally glosses over the quoted section as it being ok/normal. "Spam spell" is a pretty ominous gameplay description.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Except the analogy is garbage.

Healers got a uniform healing kit. Tanks got a uniform mitigation kit.
Enmity was completely wiped out from any management from everyone.
Healers got a uniform DPS kit. Tanks have -had- a uniform DPS kit.

Tanks have had a spam combo, a maintenance combo, and now an AoE combo.
Healers have a spam spell, a maintenance spell, and an aoe spell.

The primary difference between tanks come from the way their Ability / Supplemental kit works.
The primary difference between healers come from the way their Ability / Supplemental kit works.

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Except my analogy wasn't about differences between each healer. It was about how DPS was gutted for them and how non-healers just say "But that's not your role, why do you care?" When I know damn well that warriors would be just as mad over losing Fell Cleave, and tanks in general wouldn't be happy being told to just hold enmity, pop cooldowns, and otherwise twiddle their thumbs.

I could make a similar analogy for DPS, but let's be real, you could gut their job to just a single button for doing damage and most of them would be happy.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

I can't tell for sure what the scope of your rebuttal is. Maybe you're just commenting on the analogy or maybe it's also a comment on how healers are ok. But if it's the later, I like how it totally glosses over the quoted section as it being ok/normal. "Spam spell" is a pretty ominous gameplay description.

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It's in the first line.

The analogy is garbage.

My own thoughts on the healing changes are mixed, and changing the more I get to reflect on it.

After binge watching videos of the Healer adjustments for the past week I have come to the conclusion that if, and this is a big if, the encounters in SHB push outgoing damage in a way that makes healing necessary and doesn't leave much room for downtime then having the current healing adjustments may be engaging enough for us to have fun. The problem that many healers I've spoken with are having is not so much "OH MY DPS!" (well maybe sch's) but how boring their jobs will be.

AST has only had a dot, a single target spam and an aoe dps spell since inception, so the level grind (which if you haven't leveled an AST the old school way, I recommend it so you can see how mind numbing it is) is something we're used to. The reason most people I know play healer is because it is fun and supportive and always busy. If there is no adjustment to outgoing damage in any given scenario many, if not most, healers dps or do some sort of support actions in the downtime. While it appears that SCH has gotten an insane healing boost and WHM has gotten some nice upgrades to lillies and pdps, they still don't seem to have much to do in the way of non-healing downtime. AST at least has their cards, which with the new system seems like it will keep us busy at least, which is a good sign. I will absolutely miss Time Dilation and the Buff extension for CO, but I'm coming to terms with that.

I am still withholding judgment until I get my hands on the jobs and am hopeful that the changes are for the better, or at least are a step in the right direction. At first I was very disappointed but I am giving the devs the benefit of the doubt and praying that if these changes aren't better that they will listen to the community and adjust things in a positive way. I love this game and I understand that change is hard, especially when you Love the way things are currently.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

My own thoughts on the healing changes are mixed, and changing the more I get to reflect on it.

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That's fair enough :)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Except the analogy is garbage.

Healers got a uniform healing kit. Tanks got a uniform mitigation kit.
Enmity was completely wiped out from any management from everyone.
Healers got a uniform DPS kit. Tanks have -had- a uniform DPS kit.

Tanks have had a spam combo, a maintenance combo, and now an AoE combo.
Healers have a spam spell, a maintenance spell, and an aoe spell.

The primary difference between tanks come from the way their Ability / Supplemental kit works.
The primary difference between healers come from the way their Ability / Supplemental kit works.

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If say Paladin got the same treatment as healers have got over the years then this is what Paladin's skills would look like (from my post in another thread):

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Fair point. My reasoning for my analogy was the 3-4 DPS skills is what we have left. A single target (Broil/Stone/Malefic), a DoT (Biolysis/Dia/Combust), an AoE (Art of War/Holy/Gravity) and WHM/AST get the 4th of an Assize or Earthly Star (which have a cooldown) and I guess the one WHM gets from a black lily (which happens at minimum, every 90 secs). So I was giving the benefit of the doubt in that respect. But effectively feels like you're just spamming the same ability over and over, occassionally adding a DoT and occassionally adding an attack from a cooldown.

So we could strip it for Paladin to:
-Perma tank stance, you get to keep hate without effort (which they're kinda getting anyway - except in this scenario, you can't turn it off, we lost our DPS stance a long time ago).
-Fast Blade for single target
-Total Eclipse for AoE
-Goring Blade for DoT

Everything else you do is your tank defensive cool downs, because surviving and taking damage for everybody else is a tank's role.

I think that'd be about as accurate as I think I can make it, to strip Paladin to what healers get.

I could add Circle Of Scorn to balance with Assize/Earthly Star, but I'm a Scholar.

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And to add Paladins complained back in 2.0 that the job wasn't interesting, because their rotation as a tank was basically "1, 2, 3" and their tank cool downs and flash, ever since they've evolved to get new DPS rotations, healing mechanics and are generally a lot more fun to play versus 2.0 Paladin. Paladin was a reliable tank and could tank well. It didn't need more from a mechanics point of view, but it did from an enjoyment point of view and they got it. I have PLD to 70 on an alt and I like what they've done with it and have PLD levelled back in 2.0 and could see why people didn't like it.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

If say Paladin got the same treatment as healers have got over the years then this is what Paladin's skills would look like (from my post in another thread):

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You know what.

Fine. That's fair.

I personally don't find A->A->A->A less engaging than A->A->B->A->A->B, but I understand why some would. Paladin is honestly the second worst example I'd use for engaging gameplay progression, losing out to Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Vulcann

so again you rolled a healer and expected to have amazing DPS?

I mean i am a paladin and i have heal but that doesn't make me a healer. that would be like me going into the expac saying "man wtf Yoshi-P why didn't you give my heal any love! i wanna be a healer that can tank every once in a while"

no if you want to play a DPS that has a heal play a redmage or summoner.

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Imagine if RDM achieved its damage by spamming 121212121212 and only occasionally weaved in a couple oGCDs. Congratulations. You now have what a standard healer rotation looks like. This is what healers are upset about. Unless content hits harder, they're already glorified DPS with boring DPS abilities. What we have seen thus far is more of the same... except even less DPS.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Imagine if RDM achieved its damage by spamming 121212121212 and only occasionally weaved in a couple oGCDs. Congratulations. You now have what a standard healer rotation looks like. This is what healers are upset about. Unless content hits harder, they're already glorified DPS with boring DPS abilities. What we have seen thus far is more of the same... except even less DPS.

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But Red Mage is a job in the DPS role. It will obviously have a more robust DPS rotation.

How does Red Mage's healing kit look?

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

If say Paladin got the same treatment as healers have got over the years then this is what Paladin's skills would look like (from my post in another thread):



And to add Paladins complained back in 2.0 that the job wasn't interesting, because their rotation as a tank was basically "1, 2, 3" and their tank cool downs and flash, ever since they've evolved to get new DPS rotations, healing mechanics and are generally a lot more fun to play versus 2.0 Paladin. Paladin was a reliable tank and could tank well. It didn't need more from a mechanics point of view, but it did from an enjoyment point of view and they got it. I have PLD to 70 on an alt and I like what they've done with it and have PLD levelled back in 2.0 and could see why people didn't like it.

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Yeah. PLD still isn't a complicated job but it's gotten more fun with every expansion. HW gave us proper dps combos and clemency. SB gave us requiscat/holy spirit.

In dungeons our aoe currently is CoS > Flash (x however many times you need) then spam total eclipse. Now we're getting a two part aoe combo and aoe spells for a burst phase. It's going to be a lot more fun dealing with aoe in dungeons in ShB than now even if the 'tanking' part of 'gather mobs, establish enmity, aoe' isn't really changing. And the single target rotation is getting some touch ups too with atonement and the new spell phase finisher.

And with healers something to keep in mind too is they still have to dps for quests and solo instances, and simplifying their dps toolkit too much will make those as well as older group instances more dull when there just isn't any healing needed at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

But Red Mage is a job in the DPS role. It will obviously have a more robust DPS rotation.

How does Red Mage's healing kit look?

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Hence why I purposely said "and only occasionally weaved in a couple oGCDs" because that's how healing currently works. You primarily DPS and weave in a couple oGCDs every once in a while.

You can give healers a thousand different ways to heal. It doesn't mean a thing if they never have to use half of them, which was the whole point.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Hence why I purposely said "and only occasionally weaved in a couple oGCDs" because that's how healing currently works. You primarily DPS and weave in a couple oGCDs every once in a while.

You can give healers a thousand different ways to heal. It doesn't mean a thing if they never have to use half of them, which was the whole point.

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Do you not think having so many methods to heal opens up encounter damage paradigms?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Do you not think having so many methods to heal opens up encounter damage paradigms?

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Unfortunately, there's only so much they can do with that. If they upped outgoing damage significantly enough to really make experienced Healers have to spend most of their time healing, less experienced ones would probably be destroyed. And currently we have basically no evidence that encounter design is changing significantly. It's a huge IF, whereas the changes we have now are knowns.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Yeah. PLD still isn't a complicated job but it's gotten more fun with every expansion. HW gave us proper dps combos and clemency. SB gave us requiscat/holy spirit.

In dungeons our aoe currently is CoS > Flash (x however many times you need) then spam total eclipse. Now we're getting a two part aoe combo and aoe spells for a burst phase. It's going to be a lot more fun dealing with aoe in dungeons in ShB than now even if the 'tanking' part of 'gather mobs, establish enmity, aoe' isn't really changing. And the single target rotation is getting some touch ups too with atonement and the new spell phase finisher.

And with healers something to keep in mind too is they still have to dps for quests and solo instances, and simplifying their dps toolkit too much will make those as well as older group instances more dull when there just isn't any healing needed at the moment.

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Aye, that is one of the other issues. Honestly, if their intention is to put a great emphasis on healing over DPS, then they can make the content more challenging for healers, which they may well be doing for Shadowbringers. Because if the content is making the healers heal more then they are DPSing less. But there is all of the pre-existing content (for new healers, levelling roulettes, trial roulettes etc.) and pressumably the game's solo content too.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Do you not think having so many methods to heal opens up encounter damage paradigms?

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Considering healers already have too many options at their disposal and nothing changed? No, I don't. I would welcome being wrong but the precedence has long been set and I don't foresee them changing it.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

Aye, that is one of the other issues. Honestly, if their intention is to put a great emphasis on healing over DPS, then they can make the content more challenging for healers, which they may well be doing for Shadowbringers. Because if the content is making the healers heal more then they are DPSing less. But there is all of the pre-existing content (for new healers, levelling roulettes, trial roulettes etc.) and pressumably the game's solo content too.

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This is the main reason I'm a bit nervous. Will it be a sudden jump after 70 levels to go into ShB and have a lot more damage going out? If so, will that be too jarring? If not, will it even make a difference? And what about solo/old content?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Considering healers already have too many options at their disposal and nothing changed? No, I don't. I would welcome being wrong but the precedence has long been set and I don't foresee them changing it.

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That's fair. It really all hangs on whether or not SE decides to change damage patterns now.