Male Viera (BunBros) - We Want Them - With Heels!

if you noticed in the art panel, they actually had parts of this pic in the collage, so im wondering if thatll be the concept for the males in general, or for the 'child/teen' model for characters similar to honoroit or astrid
http://cdn4.dualshockers.com/wp-cont.../04/Viera2.jpg

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I don't think that was missed. I think people are taking offense to your reach. The OP didn't need clarifying, you just dug your hole and are seeking a way out instead of just apologizing for going to far.

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I have no problem apologizing for how I interpreted the OP's post. I still think it needs clarification, because I still really don't get what he's asking for. I did not take anything "to(sic) far." I have not insulted anyone. People may think I have, but this is kind of proving my point. Language can be misconstrued. People can misspeak. Several times in this thread my phrasing has caused people to jump to conclusions about me. People assume. That's fine. I can communicate like a civilized person and try to clarify my own stance. I'm not going to play the victim card. But I have noticed some trying to play that in the OP's stead. I'd just like him to say something. I'm sure he's quite capable of responding as an adult too.

The thing is, I have heard and read things people have asked the devs to do, and their point didn't really come across.

Three in particular I can think of are the bunny suit for males. Most wanted a unique (different) version than what the females got.

Another is the whole glamour situation. Where people have asked several times for the glamour to be registered to the job somehow, not the armor the job is wearing. In other words, they would like the universal tank gear to be able to show 3 glamours for each individual tank. Each time that was brought up, they thought they just wanted more glamour plates.

The third was someone asking for gear to be dyed a certain way, as in the shirt can be dyed separately from the corset going over it. They really didn't understand this as a concept, and chose to just talk about the dyeing process in general.

That's why I'm asking for clarification. Sometimes things get lost in translation. When things aren't specific, it can cause quite a bit of confusion.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Yes, they posted old concept art, but didn't specify they wanted something like that. And the concept art they posted has them without heels.

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I thought the OP's direct question/statement "I'm assuming this image is still legitimate and accurate?" made it quite clear that they were asking for the male Viera as shown in that image.

It's not a long jump to understand that combination as asking for males to have "heels as shown in the concept art", which does indeed show them with unusually-positioned heels, even if that isn't the actual correct term to use.


And I don't think you've ever asked the OP to clarify what they meant by heels.

This was (the relevant part of) your initial response to the topic (#14):

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Originally Posted by TarynH

But in all seriousness... Would it be so awful to play a female character? Why does it have to be male? Does it have to be male to be good, fun, strong, aesthetically appealing? Your goal is equality, I'm sure, but there's a hypocritical base to your argument.

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And then your second post (#27) is, as far as I can see, the first time anyone brought up the "males as boobless females" image, and you seem to think that other people are asking for "effeminate bunnies" and you want them to be masculine. Then claim that the OP is saying female Viera aren't good enough, when they said nothing of the sort.

Third post (#32), you still haven't asked for clarification on the "heels" statement, but you seem to have assumed that he means "heeled shoes" because you remarked that they're removed on the concept image.


You're arguing against a false impression that you picked up from the original post, and (possibly) only you are thinking of. It's at odds with what the OP was actually asking for, and I don't think the conversation is even connecting properly, with possibly both sides filtering new statements by their misinterpretation of the previous ones.

Nobody else has asked for males that look like females, or proposed that they might look like females.

Nobody has said anything to devalue female Viera, just because they want a counterpart male version - specifically because they want a different design to the female one that has been implemented.

I don't even think anyone else is talking about what they would wear, except that heeled shoes might serve a practical function for a naturally-digitigrade humanoid race.

(I'm not sure that they would be practical, by the way - if they're built to walk that way all the time, they should be able to support themselves without issues. Try doing it yourself - your legs need to be a bit more bent to balance properly, but it's not that uncomfortable. I think heeled shoes would interfere rather than help.)

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Another is the whole glamour situation. Where people have asked several times for the glamour to be registered to the job somehow, not the armor the job is wearing. In other words, they would like the universal tank gear to be able to show 3 glamours for each individual tank. Each time that was brought up, they thought they just wanted more glamour plates.

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I think that's because it would require a complete rebuild of how the glamour (and possibly overall equipment) system operates. Inventory is notoriously complicated, and I assume they've rigged up the current glamour system to do the best they can within the framework of their hard-to-fix past decisions.

They've come as close as they can by letting you link glamour plates to gearsets, and it would indeed be helpful to have more plates so that version of the system can be useful. Right now there aren't enough plates to store designs for all your classes - especially if you want to do something like crafter glamours which would take up 8/10 of the current plates.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

The third was someone asking for gear to be dyed a certain way, as in the shirt can be dyed separately from the corset going over it. They really didn't understand this as a concept, and chose to just talk about the dyeing process in general.

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...and probably another item-design issue. Gear will have been programmed to store one piece of dye information. I have no idea how the system works, but I suspect it would be a massive undertaking to reprogram everything to store two dyes - and how each item needs to respond to those two dyes. Assuming they can even fit the extra data onto each item in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Astarotha

if you noticed in the art panel, they actually had parts of this pic in the collage, so im wondering if thatll be the concept for the males in general, or for the 'child/teen' model for characters similar to honoroit or astrid
[image]

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That looks to me like concept art for an adult female, wearing similar clothing (particularly the leg armour) to what's seen on the other concept image. (Presumably for demonstrating the underlying body shape - those wide hips would have been an interesting shape contrast to the Au Ra-ish broad-chested males. Probably impractical for gear modelling though.)

Males with heels are not uncommon in aristocratice times or so and we play in a fantasy world after all, heels are not female exclusive nor did they originate from females.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

This was (the relevant part of) your initial response to the topic (#14):

And then your second post

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Those are legitimate questions in regard to both of his posts. He said something about the Mi'Qote being gender locked, until the community asked; in his second post. So I asked if it would be so awful to play a female only character. I was legitimately pondering if having a female only race (character) would take the OP out of their comfort zone. If it would, then there is a slight hypocrisy to his base argument of wanting male representation for said race. In other words, he'd be comfortable having males with heels, as long as they came with the females. But not okay with having females only, heels or no heels, despite the lore basically saying they'd be female only. Basically okay with equal representation, but not okay with some representation. (Again, only going on the information we have now. I even said in my first post we might get male too.)

In other words: I have a female Viera, and I establish that females coexist with males, but the males are rarely seen and outside of mating choose not to be... EVER. Then I tell you, you can have the female Viera, because you requested a Viera. You tell me the female Viera is okay and all, but you really want a male to be satisfied. At this point you establish you are not comfortable with having a female only race. You probably won't touch the female. You most likely didn't care there would be a female. You just wanted the female to exist to get to the male.

So would you be uncomfortable if I told you that you only get the female? Would that completely ruin your day? Would you be more comfortable if it were male only? Or could you just be satisfied that they are female only, and move on? And if you can't just be satisfied or comfortable with what you get, wouldn't it be a little hypocritical when you imply that it's just not your cup of tea without the male counterpart? Because that implies that the female really aren't worth having in game if there are no males. But can't the females just stand on their own? Can't they be the strength and symbol of their race without males standing by them? (You could even reverse that, as I'm sure people would be against a male only race.)

That is what I was pondering at the time. I haven't posted in any other Viera threads, so the assumption of me targeting one, or coming in with an agenda is pretty absurd. This one simply confused me, and I'll admit that. Now I'm not even sure if the OP is talking about clothing or the actual heels on the concept art. Either way we're dealing with hypotheticals, and it could be interpreted in different ways.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

So would you be uncomfortable if I told you that you only get the female? Would that completely ruin your day? Would you be more comfortable if it were male only? Or could you just be satisfied that they are female only, and move on? And if you can't just be satisfied or comfortable with what you get, wouldn't it be a little hypocritical when you imply that it's just not your cup of tea without the male counterpart? Because that implies that the female really aren't worth having in game if there are no males. But can't the females just stand on their own? Can't they be the strength and symbol of their race without males standing by them? (You could even reverse that, as I'm sure people would be against a male only race.)

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I don't want a male only race and I don't want a female only race. Gender locked races are a thing of the past and yeah, I wouldn't play as a female Viera because I only feel like playing male characters and no amount of hype is going to convince me to fantasia into a female only race. It is not happening. And no, female only Viera are not worth it because we deserve full fledged races with both genders and both clans. All of this nonsense about "standing on their own" or being "the symbol of their race" is ridiculous. It was horrible when they did it with Miquotes and Roegadyn and it certainly wouldn't be popular if they did so now.

Didn't they also do this with Au Ra's showing the female first?

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Originally Posted by redcurrant18

I don't want a male only race and I don't want a female only race. Gender locked races are a thing of the past and yeah, I wouldn't play as a female Viera because I only feel like playing male characters and no amount of hype is going to convince me to fantasia into a female only race. It is not happening. And no, female only Viera are not worth it because we deserve full fledged races with both genders and both clans. All of this nonsense about "standing on their own" or being "the symbol of their race" is ridiculous. It was horrible when they did it with Miquotes and Roegadyn and it certainly wouldn't be popular if they did so now.

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All of that "nonsense" was my own musing and thoughts while responding to OP. I even stated as much. But it's nice to have a response to it. Thanks. :P

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Didn't they also do this with Au Ra's showing the female first?

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Technically speaking yes, as Yugiri was the first reveal as she is female.

But from Tokyo Fanfest on their full reveal...no?

But to further explain. Yugiri wasn't even completely done yet - she was a modified Miqote till the concept was fully done, and you don't get to see her face till 2.55 iirc.

But both genders were revealed in the Tokyo fanfest.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...and-other-lore.

Not exactly how or why that rumor started cuz...not true.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

All of that "nonsense" was my own musing and thoughts while responding to OP. I even stated as much. But it's nice to have a response to it. Thanks. :P

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Explain why we need the great wall of text for it though?
..Hmm maybe I shouldn't ask that since it's inviting another big block of unnecessary text about it like done to the poor OP.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Explain why we need the great wall of text for it though?
..Hmm maybe I shouldn't ask that since it's inviting another big block of unnecessary text about it like done to the poor OP.

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...12/563/05d.jpg

Picture's worth a thousand words.

Anyways, I can't exactly see them reneging on creating a male version since like I said earlier, they were all okay with showing concepts during Fate in Tokyo, then getting cold feet and doing what they said they didn't want to do in 1.0 (create a gender locked race).


They had some pretty cool designs, looks like the wolf made it into Stormblood

https://i.imgur.com/Ohlnpii.jpg

The album for those curious.

https://imgur.com/gallery/YEIpZ

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Originally Posted by redcurrant18

Uhhh sorry no that's not how it works. Not all gay players want to play as women. Some do, and that's totally fine, but people like me don't want to have to be forced to play as a female in order to preserve the lore which is already broken by Paissa houses and motorcycles in the game. I like playing as male, and I like being able to dress my character as masculine or feminine as I want. Whether someone wants to play as a super-macho-bara Roegadyn in a speedo or a Viera male in full drag dressed up as Frank from Rocky Horror Picture Show is none of your business.

https://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/acc...ef35b273e0.jpg

https://images.pristineauction.com/9...uction.com.jpg

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Thanks for this. I prepared a response, but the moment I read "social justice" and how threads like these "pop up often" whining about equality, I knew there was no point. Also, they totally missed my point. But what can ya do. I'm cynical about all this. While I'd LOVE a pretty, bishi looking bunny man, I'm saving my optimism for when everything is revealed.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

(I'm not sure that they would be practical, by the way - if they're built to walk that way all the time, they should be able to support themselves without issues. Try doing it yourself - your legs need to be a bit more bent to balance properly, but it's not that uncomfortable. I think heeled shoes would interfere rather than help.)

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So your entire post was awesome, but I want to zero in on this comment. BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT I THINK EVERY TIME I READ SOMETHING ABOUT VIERA FEET. Like...yeah yeah it's fantasy. But if they, presumably, evolved digitigrade feet, wouldn't they have also had the ability to support themselves without heels? (I mean...the heels were probs for the "appeal" but still.)

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Originally Posted by stormygabe

So your entire post was awesome, but I want to zero in on this comment. BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT I FUCKING THINK EVERY TIME I READ SOMETHING ABOUT VIERA FEET. Like...yeah yeah it's fantasy. But if they, presumably, evolved digitigrade feet, wouldn't they have also had the ability to support themselves without heels? (I mean...the heels were probs for the "appeal" but still.)

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I was always under the impression that the females sat up in the tree tops and ate carrots all day. So their muscles aren't as well defined, to the point of them needing support of the heels.

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Originally Posted by stormygabe

So your entire post was awesome, but I want to zero in on this comment. BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT I FUCKING THINK EVERY TIME I READ SOMETHING ABOUT VIERA FEET. Like...yeah yeah it's fantasy. But if they, presumably, evolved digitigrade feet, wouldn't they have also had the ability to support themselves without heels? (I mean...the heels were probs for the "appeal" but still.)

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I mean, sure, they'd be able to support themselves without the heels. They wouldn't be NECESSARY. But they might be more comfortable, just like how we as humans don't NEED shoes but they're more comfortable than going barefoot about the place (Even if you would end up developing callouses to toughen up the skin so that you wouldn't feel the roughness of the terrain as well as mitigating scratches and cuts)

Also, as far as the practicality aspect goes... I recall reading a study where it was mentioned that stilettos actually create a foot shape that if naturally developed (I.e. Digitigrade feet and a heel spike) would be superior to both regular digitigrade and plantigrade feet.

Since, digitigrade provides extra agility through the additional leverage of their ankle. While plantigrade get better load bearing capacity. With that stiletto shape giving a mix between both, with the additional ankle leverage through relying on the toes only while running, but with the heel providing an additional base to centre weight on.

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Originally Posted by stormygabe

So your entire post was awesome, but I want to zero in on this comment. BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT I FUCKING THINK EVERY TIME I READ SOMETHING ABOUT VIERA FEET. Like...yeah yeah it's fantasy. But if they, presumably, evolved digitigrade feet, wouldn't they have also had the ability to support themselves without heels? (I mean...the heels were probs for the "appeal" but still.)

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Well mainly digitigrade is mostly due to how the figure is balanced birds have hip joints to help with their walking in locomotion and for the most part, it's limited to walking birds, rarely bipedal animals. The gravity would hurt, and animals like ostriches have splayed feet to help with weight distribution.

For something human, you have to understand form and balance - https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jiDfpmoKX...wingNotes1.jpg
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jiDfpmoKX...wingNotes1.jpg (Michael Hampton)

The heel does help balance it out but I definitely wouldn't say it's a comfortable solution as a stiletto.

I've seen this - https://i.pinimg.com/originals/29/a6...f1bab082db.jpg

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Those are legitimate questions in regard to both of his posts. He said something about the Mi'Qote being gender locked, until the community asked; in his second post. So I asked if it would be so awful to play a female only character.

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I fail to see the relevance of those two things.

Miqo'te are the best example for him to bring up of why fans should (or at least feel they need to) directly ask for male Viera. That is, the previous race of characters with cute furry animal ears that the developers thought should be female-only, until their audience asked them to change it because they really wanted male characters as well.

"I like this male character design and want it in the game" doesn't instantly mean "the female design isn't good enough, I need a male design too". It just means they want the male character because it's a good design, and the developers have thus-far shown no indication that they're implementing it.

The enjoyment-or-not of playing as a female-only-race Viera versus a female Viera with a male counterpart is irrelevant. It doesn't sound like OP would be playing as a female Viera either way. Therefore, the question is (hypothetically) not whether the non-availability of males would affect his enjoyment of playing as a Viera, it's whether males will be available because that's a Viera character he would like to play as, but the females are not.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

I was legitimately pondering if having a female only race (character) would take the OP out of their comfort zone. If it would, then there is a slight hypocrisy to his base argument of wanting male representation for said race.

In other words, he'd be comfortable having males with heels, as long as they came with the females. But not okay with having females only, heels or no heels, despite the lore basically saying they'd be female only.

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You still seem to be assuming "heels" means heeled shoes. Or perhaps it's just what you were thinking at the time - which may (and I think is likely to) be the wrong interpretation.

And you're reading so many things into his post that aren't there. Not even in passing.

I can't see how "not wanting to play a female character" could make it hypocritical to want a male character design implemented because they like it.

And you're pulling "comfortable having males with heels, as long as they came with the females" utterly out of thin air. He never said anything like it. He posted an image and asked for them to be implemented still looking like they did in the image.

Of course he's not going to be "okay with females only" if he's hoping to get the male design which was both shown as a concept, and has been described in lore-text within the game itself - in a way that definitely sounds consistent with those concept sketches.

These are human-derived races, possibly via evolution, according to the lorebook. There are male and female genders. They exist, and it's not inconceivable that some males are going to choose to run away from that harsh cultural lifestyle that was described. It's completely justifiable that we'll encounter some.

(I have to wonder if the Dramaturge's text will change if-and-when they are implemented, to reflect that some have fled and become adventurers. Even if there are only females, surely he'll describe them differently!)

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Originally Posted by TarynH

In other words: I have a female Viera, and I establish that females coexist with males, but the males are rarely seen and outside of mating choose not to be... EVER. Then I tell you, you can have the female Viera, because you requested a Viera. You tell me the female Viera is okay and all, but you really want a male to be satisfied. At this point you establish you are not comfortable with having a female only race. You probably won't touch the female. You most likely didn't care there would be a female. You just wanted the female to exist to get to the male.

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Let's flip that over. Every race in the game so far has come as a "matched set" of two character designs, male and female. Some people will be hoping for cute bunny girls. Some will be hoping for powerful warrior types. Some will have been hoping for the cute bunny boys from that other concept art. All these calls together showed the developers that players want "Viera", so Viera should be implemented.

And now we get Viera, and it's only given one of the expected two designs, and only catered to half of the group that were hoping for its implementation - while the devs (hypothetically) sit back and go "see, we gave you the Viera you were all asking for! But only the girls because male bunnies would be weird, so we left them out."

Should people not be disappointed that they didn't actually get the thing they were hoping to get?

It still boils down to "this is a character type that I was hoping to get, and it could have been implemented, but now it isn't".

What makes it so special that Viera would be implemented as a female-only-playable race? Males still exist. You just can't play as them.

To me it seems just as "hypocritical" (or whatever the right word is) in a different way to suggest that the only way females can stand alone and seem like powerful characters is to completely segregate them from men. Do they suddenly become less strong if you introduce males to stand alongside them?

People are people, character designs are character designs, and some people will want to play as the male design which they thought was coming, but now might not be. The only thing it demonstrates is their personal taste in character type.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I fail to see the relevance of those two things.

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The relevance is the Mithra race, on which the Miqote were based, is a female only race (as far as playable). And I was asking if it would be so awful to have a female only race like that, because he brought them up.

Either way, that post was to clarify my thinking on my first post. Basically in response to your post, because it seemed you were trying to understand it better. It wasn't to continue my argument. But you can disregard the post anyway, because it's already been deemed as an "unnecessary wall of text," by the thought police.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Anyways, I can't exactly see them reneging on creating a male version since like I said earlier, they were all okay with showing concepts during Fate in Tokyo, then getting cold feet and doing what they said they didn't want to do in 1.0 (create a gender locked race).


They had some pretty cool designs, looks like the wolf made it into Stormblood

https://i.imgur.com/Ohlnpii.jpg

The album for those curious.

https://imgur.com/gallery/YEIpZ

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I actually really like the one in the top right. He has just the right amount of angry jungle boy willing to kill you on the spot and just a bit of cuteness thrown in. And the way his hair goes all the way around his face, I dare say it looks very mane like. I wonder if the BLU leaker saw this and thought it was a 2nd race?

Wow a lot of... uglyness jumped out here huh?

But i kinda hope we don't get another Au Ra situation with the Vieras. I still feel like Au Ri women came out looking too much "waifu" when compared to the men y'know? Men are these really tall and fierce looking beefcakes. And then the females have what half their height and look really delicate. Like sexual dimorphism is absolutely fine but i feel like they could've done it better (like they did with FemRoe).

So yeah i really hope the bunnyboys have not only heels but also some RIDICULOUS lingerie armor like their female counterparts. And i'm not even gonna lie i would DIE for bunnyboys to be absolute femme queens in design.

well au ra females are still pretty damn dangerous so not like their smaller size hurts them, and yeah the skin baring male outfit for viera would be absolute eye candy

as for the feet, ive always seen the heels as more useful to them for standing still rather than actually walking, since digitigrade your heel is well away from the ground in motion (also if the viera went flatfooted when they stand itd animate REALLY oddly when fran suddenly drops like 8 inches in height so yeah, KISS in animation)

but... crazy thought here... what if jp fanfest we get dancer as the job reveal... and its a male viera showing it off. and if you know your FF it wouldnt be the first time a dancer has turned out to be male so itd be a sort of fun easter egg to see

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Originally Posted by Astarotha

well au ra females are still pretty damn dangerous so not like their smaller size hurts them, and yeah the skin baring male outfit for viera would be absolute eye candy

as for the feet, ive always seen the heels as more useful to them for standing still rather than actually walking, since digitigrade your heel is well away from the ground in motion (also if the viera went flatfooted when they stand itd animate REALLY oddly when fran suddenly drops like 8 inches in height so yeah, KISS in animation)

but... crazy thought here... what if jp fanfest we get dancer as the job reveal... and its a male viera showing it off. and if you know your FF it wouldnt be the first time a dancer has turned out to be male so itd be a sort of fun easter egg to see

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Oh no i don't mean to sound like Au Ra women are less capable AT ALL than the men. It's just the design decision that kinda rubs me the wrong way. But i can live with it.

Gooooood i would love for a male Viera to be the poster boy for Dancer (if we really get it as a job). Also if they went with either Bartz's or Galuf's Dancer looks from FFV as the reference for their gear i'd be even happier.

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Originally Posted by Guiballad

So yeah i really hope the bunnyboys have not only heels but also some RIDICULOUS lingerie armor like their female counterparts. And i'm not even gonna lie i would DIE for bunnyboys to be absolute femme queens in design.

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Oh I definitely hope so. It'd be completely unfair if the males were not similar to the females at all. If they were it'd truly be a really unique race rather than some SWOL hairy cat thing. Having too many cats is quite redundant because there is hellsguard roes and miqotes already. Not to say that you shouldn't be able to make masculine male viera but having a more feminine one as an option either by clan or face would be nice.

I would be honestly disappointed if the males were overly fem. I wouldn't mind if there was a possibility for them to be 'fem' looking - but I'm hoping for a more handsome and elegant type. I would be happy with a scale which allows this of course. I certainly want my bunnyboy to be attractive - to me at least - an overly femme isn't what I like.

Regarding there whole backstory I honestly can't imagine them being overly cute either otherwise, oooof, think about how depressing that is. For these cute little bunny men to live alone, die alone - fight alone. A lone wanderer type persona sort of brings forward that these men are stoic, powerful and while there can indeed be a hint of feminity, also masculinity.

As for the stilletos, that would also be fine. It would make sense, but as the males are all about fighting and living by war and purging of trespassers - I can imagine their legs being extremely well developed, especially on the calf. As for loose clothing, oh yes. They live in jungles and wood thas has a hot climate - the males make their clothes by hunting and the sorts as they do not trade, nor have a community and the tools I imagine to make those frilly clothes. So, tight-fitting, minimal to a degree and with some armour pieces.

On the topic of their heel, I did notice that the art drawn of the males they didn't have the stiletto heel. This makes me think that the females do it just for style and culture rather than actually needing the support of the heel for their feet.

In the end, I hope these men are handsome, masculine and feminity mixed together to show a very powerful lone strider that their Amazonian female counterparts, as well as other species in Eorzea, will find 'attractive'. After all, it's always been in FF12/tactics and in FF14 that the females are highly regarded and seen as beautiful and elegant. I can imagine this of the male. Beauty should also be seen in masculine traits.


...Dang please have an amazing muscle slider

To be clear; I am fine with the idea of femme male Viera, just not for my own Viera. As long as we have the option to have both a masculine and strong type, as well as the other side femee/cute/small and all that in between then I'm happy!

i see them with a body like the masai warrior, tall and muscle more in longuer. more agile and swift warrior, that will move from tree branch to other tree branch

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

As long as we have the option to have both a masculine and strong type, as well as the other side femee/cute/small and all that in between then I'm happy!

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This would be ideal.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

A loincloth would be a better fit for the men. The original beefy concept art appeals to me quite a bit and I hope they end up being designed in a similar manner.

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Was actually thinking same thing. These guys are who I think of when I think male Viera, Igorot males who live in high altitude areas. They typically have, as a sports commentator described it, "tree trunk thighs" coz where they live, every day is leg day. A few generations back they used to be headhunters until Christian missionaries convinced them to be otherwise.

https://www.menmedios.com/wp-content...2-1024x602.png

Can't jus everyone block the troll and patiently wait for male viera reveal on JP fan fest?

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Originally Posted by Guiballad

Oh no i don't mean to sound like Au Ra women are less capable AT ALL than the men. It's just the design decision that kinda rubs me the wrong way. But i can live with it.

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I think it lies more with the animations, and what the majority of what the player base decided to go with. I mean to me, Sadu Dothral is what I kinda expected the majority of females to be like. However, a lot of the females are just overly pretty (which being pretty isn't bad, btw) and look more like they want to fuss with how they look over anything else (their idle pose is getting dirt off their shoes/tapping a shoe) - especially in their animation sets.

The only other notable "warrior" like character was Yugiri at the end of ARR trading moves with Thancred...then later turned into an odd "notice me senpai" role with Hien which I felt kind of frustrating.

But as far as male Viera go, I already don't have high expectations of how their body sliders will be given how limited the other races were as well. Unless they really surprise us and actually incorporate a better character creator. I mean that they may have a general body shape, but some people are expecting that they can go from beefy to slim. I just can't see that happening unless they do a bigger overhaul.


I also hope they don't go fully bestial as well since the Beauty and the Beast trope is done a bit much, but I'd love to see that mane kind of option in their faces given that male facial hair is pretty...sad in this game.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

Can't jus everyone block the troll and patiently wait for male viera reveal on JP fan fest?

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I'm going to assume you're referring to me. That's cool. I came into the thread asking genuine questions, based on my interpretation of the OP's post. Could've been easily cleared up if the OP had posted just once in the (now 4) days since.

Instead, 3 days later someone else decided to answer my post, thinking they could provide a satisfying answer. Saying they wanted to play a guy because they're a guy. That's fine and all, but still doesn't answer why there can't be a female only race. They even went as far as to say their characters represent them, and they want eye candy.

So I in turn asked them if their current eye candy was not sufficient, and if a male bunny would best represent them. And if not, what would be the point of a feminine male bunny? How would that represent them better?

Fair questions, again based on how I interpreted the OP's request for a male Viera "with heels." I thought he was asking for basically a male that looked just like the female, based on him adding "with heels." This still has not been clarified by him personally, so I'm still not sure if he meant shoes or not.

If the above were true, then it would be pandering, and it would just be a social justice case. Because they're only asking for it, because others got the female version, and the female version just isn't good enough for them, yet they want the same thing. I've since apologized for that initial misinterpretation of the OP's post, and also for the term social justice.

A later post someone brought up being gay, which had nothing to do with it. I never mentioned anything about it either. And really, just because a guy wants to play as a guy, doesn't mean we can't get an all female race. They simply won't play as that race if they don't want to.

Also, it still doesn't answer the question why they would want the males to look like the females. (Again, based on my initial interpretation.) Because they wouldn't play the females anyhow due to how they looked.

The same poster brought cross-dressing into the argument. This also had nothing to do with it. I wasn't hung up on the act of a guy wearing heels. I was hung up on why the male had to look like the female (in my mind) right down to the shoes they wore. I explained that in my next post.

That same poster came back, accusing me of not being able to handle a guy wearing heels. And assumed I'd get in their face and try to police their behavior. Again, this had nothing to do with what I said. Just the first of many assumptions made.

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Originally Posted by redcurrant18

but heels on a male character would just be too much for you to handle. What would you even do if you saw a guy wearing heels in real life? Would you get in their face and try to police their behavior as well?

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My next few posts were ignored where I explained what I'd like to see.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

But if they just add them to appease, and they're basically reskinned females... I think that would be a tragedy personally. As well as wasted resources. Because that's obviously not what people are wanting. It's certainly not what I want. I want them to be different. I actually like the concept art of them being muscular enough to not need heels.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

So I'll try to be succinct here:
If male Viera are added, I want them to be the rugged, masculine, fight-to-survive, bottom dwellers that are talked about in game already.
I don't care what they wear after that. They can wear a leaf and tiara for all I care.
I do not want them to look like boobless carbon copy versions of the female. That does not fit their own individual established lore.
I want the OP to clarify what they are saying when they say, "with heels." Because some of it could be lost in translation.

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The very next post came at me with a history lesson on cultures of the world, and how they all dress differently. Great! Still wasn't at all what I was talking about. Then that same person came out of left field with their end comment trying to imply I was racist towards a fictional race!

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Originally Posted by Kalise

Trying to push against this notion under the guise of "Lore" or "Equality" is tantamount to racism against the Viera.

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Then I get accused of taking things "too far." Really? Because I interpreted the OP's post of basically what they said? What every "we want male Viera" post says? That the females are good and all, but we really won't be satisfied without their male counterparts.

Next I respond to someone, and basically get told my thoughts and posts are unnecessary. We're getting super tolerant now.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Explain why we need the great wall of text for it though?
..Hmm maybe I shouldn't ask that since it's inviting another big block of unnecessary text about it like done to the poor OP.

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They play the victim card in the OP's stead. Yes, that poor OP that has not been victimized at all, and who I feel is quite capable of being able to post too.

I get accused of having a "hilariously fragile ego," while I'm literally apologizing to that same person for the social justice remark. Probably ignored my later posts where I clarified what he's still accusing me of. But again, I explain that I'm not offended by what he thinks I'm offended by, and am still trying to progress towards a civil discussion.

Which is greeted with "ignore the troll." How to shut down discussion of differing views.

Whether it involves actual high-heel shoes or not, if females have digitigrade feet, the men should, too. It'd just look WEIRD otherwise.

And the debate as to whether or not there even BE male Viera or not is puzzling. They went to a lot of trouble to develop lore for them in-game, and the most likely reason for this is because they knew players would be playing them eventually. ALSO in the lore is the fact that, whatever the traditional Viera values are, more and more Viera are leaving those values behind, leaving the wood and the Green Word, and moving to cities. Very likely, males are choosing this path, as well - even if males keep to themselves in the Viera homeland, there's no guarantee they will once they move to the city!

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Originally Posted by Guiballad

I still feel like Au Ri women came out looking too much "waifu" when compared to the men y'know?

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It's been a while, so I may be misremembering, but didn't Yoshi P literally come out and say that Au Ra females were designed around the "moe" aesthetic? Or, for those unfamiliar with the term, characters to be coddled, nurtured, and protected? They were basically designed to be waifus from the ground up! XD

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

even if males keep to themselves in the Viera homeland, there's no guarantee they will once they move to the city!

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And a certain fire in the trailer might have a say in the matter as well.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Well mainly digitigrade is mostly due to how the figure is balanced birds have hip joints to help with their walking in locomotion and for the most part, it's limited to walking birds, rarely bipedal animals. The gravity would hurt, and animals like ostriches have splayed feet to help with weight distribution.

For something human, you have to understand form and balance -

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jiDfpmoKX...wingNotes1.jpg

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jiDfpmoKX...wingNotes1.jpg (Michael Hampton)

The heel does help balance it out but I definitely wouldn't say it's a comfortable solution as a stiletto.

I've seen this - https://i.pinimg.com/originals/29/a6...f1bab082db.jpg

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For a properly digitigrade humanoid, the body can still be balanced, it just changes where that balance lies.

For the example figures viewed side-on, the central "line of balance" sits over the middle of the foot.

Again experimenting with going into the pose myself, digitigrade stance shifts that line forwards - I think so it's over the front part of the foot that's still touching the ground. You don't stay standing straight - it's a slight crouch with knees bent to shift the rest of your body weight into a balanced position.

And I don't think the in-game Viera are doing that. They're shaped like a human wearing high heels and still standing upright, not in the actual stance that should be necessary for it to be practical. "Form over function" - it really looks like the worst thing to be wearing as a jungle warrior.

The concept-art males seem better - they've got more of the forward-shifted stance to balance properly on the front part of their feet.

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Originally Posted by Guiballad

But i kinda hope we don't get another Au Ra situation with the Vieras. I still feel like Au Ri women came out looking too much "waifu" when compared to the men y'know? Men are these really tall and fierce looking beefcakes. And then the females have what half their height and look really delicate. Like sexual dimorphism is absolutely fine but i feel like they could've done it better (like they did with FemRoe).

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I agree. It seems strange to me that Au Ra in general, and most of the few prominent female characters (Yugiri, Sadu, job quest characters) are strong, capable warrior types - and yet, even moreso than their physical design, their animations are very "cutesy" and seem designed to suit players being social with their cute dragon girl, rather than the race's actual lore. I can understand why they want it that way, but it still seems disappointing from a storytelling approach. I suspect it might also be frustrating for the script writers who need to set character emotes, because it would make it more difficult to find ones that suit the NPC's personality.


The more I think on it, the more it seems like Au Ra 'absorbed' parts of the Viera concept from when they were both being brainstormed together (and Au Ra won), and now Viera are being introduced.... still with that same lore concept. Fierce tribal warriors, dainty-looking women, powerful men - whether we get to see them or not.

And from a design standpoint, my hypothetical male Viera would probably end up in a similar space to the Au Ra I made... except I was trying to make him look un-fierce, and I'd probably be trying to go the opposite direction with the Viera. I wonder where they'd overlap...?

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Originally Posted by Astarotha

but... crazy thought here... what if jp fanfest we get dancer as the job reveal... and its a male viera showing it off. and if you know your FF it wouldnt be the first time a dancer has turned out to be male so itd be a sort of fun easter egg to see

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I could see that looking really impressive!

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Originally Posted by Umeikoai

Not to say that you shouldn't be able to make masculine male viera but having a more feminine one as an option either by clan or face would be nice.

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I think there's definitely good potential to have one face design that is a bit 'softer' if not specifically feminine, especially once you play around with customisation. Au Ra are similar.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

The relevance is the Mithra race, on which the Miqote were based, is a female only race (as far as playable). And I was asking if it would be so awful to have a female only race like that, because he brought them up.

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The OP didn't mention Mithra at all. I searched the topic to check. They were only brought up in Enkidoh's post explaining why FFXI got gender-locked races in the first place. (Technical limitations, basically - to fit "two races in the space of one" so they could have more races overall. I do suspect FFXIV is heading towards similar limitations - I think the actual programming limit would be eight races - which might be an actual reason for getting a split race if they're doing that. Leaving one slot for a final extra race sometime in the future.)

And even so, it's still a very long jump from "I want this male counterpart to the female Viera" to interpreting that as saying "females really aren't worth having in game if there are no males", as you put it.

You can appreciate a character/race and their place in the game without wanting to play as them. I have no interest in playing as several of the existing races, but that doesn't mean they don't have value. They're just not for me. But they're still characters in the story and lore, I have no problem with them existing, and that's entirely disconnected from whether I'd want to play as the race or not.

The other thing with Viera is that even if we did have playable male and female characters, the established lore for NPCs would make it clear that we can't expect to see males as NPCs even if we can play as them. Female Viera would still stand alone as strong warriors who don't associate with males beyond the occasional mating.

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Originally Posted by Erendis

Can't jus everyone block the troll and patiently wait for male viera reveal on JP fan fest?

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I feel like it's better to not block people unless they're posting something really horrendous - and for that matter not assume "troll" unless someone is long-term disruptive. I feel like it's better to be aware of everything that's being said in a conversation.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

The OP didn't mention Mithra at all.

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You're right. They didn't. They mentioned Miqote being initially gender-locked. And the reasoning behind it was because of the Mithra, and initial 1.0 transition SE had decided. Which I didn't touch upon in great detail, because of the previous post by Enkidoh. I only mentioned FFXI.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

Snip

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i haven't read through the thread yet and i will do after posting from my understanding the male Viera lore is very similar to male Miqo'te lore while 1.x had miqo'te gender locked to female only in 2.x the devs decided to allow players to play male miqo'te as well while they kept the same base lore for them and adding to it from there so as far as i see it if the devs wanted to gender lock a race they should've added lore like ff11 Galka where they are percieved a gender without having an actual gender anyone who uses lore for a reason why male viera should not be playable should look at the army of catbois and come back to me :P

Gender locking at this stage also makes no sense from a player satisfaction level or a business level there is nothing else SE can add that would be more requested than male viera at this point adding anything else would be way too big a risk and if they take that risk it will not pay off SE does have full creative control on male viera whereas female viera have been depicted before so they might be taking their time with it my hope is that they will be revealed at jp fan fest as i really wanna be a bunboi >_<

that was a lot to get through but can make a better comment people want to play male for the same reason people want to play female for the aesthetic of it nothing more nothing less OP put their more specific version they like as a wish to see male vieras to go. If SE decides not to include male viera no alternative they could offer will be satisfactory enough to compensate, male vieras are the 2nd most requested new playable race after female vieras when people asked for Vieras most people were asking for both male and females gender locking would be a slap in the face for all players who wanted to be male vieras and their is no adequate reason as to why they should not be implemented.

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Originally Posted by TarynH

They play the victim card in the OP's stead. Yes, that poor OP that has not been victimized at all, and who I feel is quite capable of being able to post too.

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Well yeah, while you did apologize later about the social justice remark, you made several reaching arguments that didn't need to be made period. There's discussion but you were going far beyond that. Just because I said "poor OP" doesn't equal playing victim card, it was just unnecessary. But okay.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

For a properly digitigrade humanoid, the body can still be balanced, it just changes where that balance lies.For the example figures viewed side-on, the central "line of balance" sits over the middle of the foot.

Again experimenting with going into the pose myself, digitigrade stance shifts that line forwards - I think so it's over the front part of the foot that's still touching the ground. You don't stay standing straight - it's a slight crouch with knees bent to shift the rest of your body weight into a balanced position.

And I don't think the in-game Viera are doing that. They're shaped like a human wearing high heels and still standing upright, not in the actual stance that should be necessary for it to be practical. "Form over function" - it really looks like the worst thing to be wearing as a jungle warrior.

The concept-art males seem better - they've got more of the forward-shifted stance to balance properly on the front part of their feet.




I agree. It seems strange to me that Au Ra in general, and most of the few prominent female characters (Yugiri, Sadu, job quest characters) are strong, capable warrior types - and yet, even moreso than their physical design, their animations are very "cutesy" and seem designed to suit players being social with their cute dragon girl, rather than the race's actual lore. I can understand why they want it that way, but it still seems disappointing from a storytelling approach. I suspect it might also be frustrating for the script writers who need to set character emotes, because it would make it more difficult to find ones that suit the NPC's personality.


The more I think on it, the more it seems like Au Ra 'absorbed' parts of the Viera concept from when they were both being brainstormed together (and Au Ra won), and now Viera are being introduced.... still with that same lore concept. Fierce tribal warriors, dainty-looking women, powerful men - whether we get to see them or not.

And from a design standpoint, my hypothetical male Viera would probably end up in a similar space to the Au Ra I made... except I was trying to make him look un-fierce, and I'd probably be trying to go the opposite direction with the Viera. I wonder where they'd overlap...?

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Yeah you're pretty much in agreement with my thoughts. It's not that I think a stiletto heel is the best solution, but we got warriors in subligars, Pig Masks, slime hats, and New Year helmets with inu shibas with wiggly butts. So if the OP wants that design, I'm okay with it. If people want the crazy lingerie, that's fine too. It's nothing worth arguing about honestly.

But yeah the Au Ra did get a lot of that early concept art of the Vierra but those chicken thighs on the males though lol.

As far a digitigrade feet though, I mean the Wolf guys already have it, so do a lot of the beast tribes in the game in general. It's the common anthro/furry trope to pitch the legs forward like a quadruped. So I don't really care that much. I think in the realm of how the Viera stand (females) it just kinda went with the look. Design liberties.

Though if the guys have legs pitching forward like the beast tribes I can see why making armor sets working for them a bit of a nightmare. That's why so many of the game models look so odd (no butts, weird proportions) Unless they come up with a new system, but ...considering how people often say glamour is the true end game...

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Though if the guys have legs pitching forward like the beast tribes I can see why making armor sets working for them a bit of a nightmare. That's why so many of the game models look so odd (no butts, weird proportions) Unless they come up with a new system, but ...considering how people often say glamour is the true end game...

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I get the feeling that the whole armor redesign argument may no longer be a concern. While they did "normalize" armor design for the original five races, that was in part due to the fact that they were under a horrendous development crunch. They were essentially rebuilding the game from scratch, and had to cut a few corners. Budget was likely tight, as well, as investors were justifiably skeptical given the horrendous bomb the original 1.0 was. Now, though, the game has had several years of rather impressive success. I could definitely see the devs having a lot more development wiggle room - such as the ability to redesign armor to fit an unusual frame for a new race, rather than modify the frame to fit the standard armor.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

i haven't read through the thread yet and i will do after posting from my understanding the male Viera lore is very similar to male Miqo'te lore while 1.x had miqo'te gender locked to female only in 2.x the devs decided to allow players to play male miqo'te as well while they kept the same base lore for them and adding to it from there so as far as i see it if the devs wanted to gender lock a race they should've added lore like ff11 Galka where they are percieved a gender without having an actual gender anyone who uses lore for a reason why male viera should not be playable should look at the army of catbois and come back to me :P

Gender locking at this stage also makes no sense from a player satisfaction level or a business level there is nothing else SE can add that would be more requested than male viera at this point adding anything else would be way too big a risk and if they take that risk it will not pay off SE does have full creative control on male viera whereas female viera have been depicted before so they might be taking their time with it my hope is that they will be revealed at jp fan fest as i really wanna be a bunboi >_<

that was a lot to get through but can make a better comment people want to play male for the same reason people want to play female for the aesthetic of it nothing more nothing less OP put their more specific version they like as a wish to see male vieras to go. If SE decides not to include male viera no alternative they could offer will be satisfactory enough to compensate, male vieras are the 2nd most requested new playable race after female vieras when people asked for Vieras most people were asking for both male and females gender locking would be a slap in the face for all players who wanted to be male vieras and their is no adequate reason as to why they should not be implemented.

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The lore angle for me is moot for another reason: SE is writing the lore. If we get to March fanfest and they say 'Male Viera don't fit the lore' I would call BS because THEY WROTE THE LORE and only put it in the game in 4.5 when they had clearly already settled on the new race(s) for the expansion. I would perceive that not as 'our hands are tied by lore' but rather 'we didn't want to make male Viera so we wrote a lore excuse to not have them.'

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I get the feeling that the whole armor redesign argument may no longer be a concern. While they did "normalize" armor design for the original five races, that was in part due to the fact that they were under a horrendous development crunch. They were essentially rebuilding the game from scratch, and had to cut a few corners. Budget was likely tight, as well, as investors were justifiably skeptical given the horrendous bomb the original 1.0 was. Now, though, the game has had several years of rather impressive success. I could definitely see the devs having a lot more development wiggle room - such as the ability to redesign armor to fit an unusual frame for a new race, rather than modify the frame to fit the standard armor.

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I'm a bit skeptical because SE isn't exactly the best on technology where it counts, especially UI design. You also have the fact even interviews not too long ago cited the problem as well.

I am curious to see how the system will be updated come the Japan Fanfest since we are having other changes to the system.

The final concern is if you're going to warp armor to fit new body types, you'll still hit a backlash (if they don't adjust it) that people want their body types fleshed out a bit more as well. So "hey we're gonna do all this for X race" and not revisit the older races for similar adjustments may not fly well with the community at all.