A question for the BLU peeps

My choice isn't on the survey, but I'm going to try it out and see how it plays before I judge.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Tell them to use one of the options available to them instead of taking away an option from everyone.

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But if a BLU doesn't care that he's a burden, you'll be the one held back if he's randomly placed in your group. So you're also protected with that rule.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Do you know for sure there won't be a level requirement to learning spells?

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Nothing in the screenshots we saw tend to say that. It only shows a spellbook, and spells seems to be completely out of order. And even if they had levels, it won't change anything because BLU will still have far more spells than he can equip. Like I already said, imagine the mess if every job could only equip half of its job skills, and you can't know what they have before entering the duty.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

And even in the past FF games that didn't require a level to learn, you basically were still level locked away from spells because you had to progress in the story to get to those enemies and be capable of defeating them.

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This will be only one example, but since you can do a full run of FFIX at level 1, at least Quina is not restricted by his/her level. Khimari or Quistis also don't need any level to have access to any of their spells. And in every game you could still keep one of your paty member to level 1 and allow him/her to cast any spell at the very end.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But if a BLU doesn't care that he's a burden, you'll be the one held back if he's randomly placed in your group. So you're also protected with that rule.

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Not much different than someone that plays as an "ice mage" or hasn't melded their gear at all or doesn't have their job stone or hasn't done all their job quests or hasn't read what their abilities do so they are just mashing things randomly. I don't need SE to protect me. I'm a big boy and can handle those situations myself.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Nothing in the screenshots we saw tend to say that. It only show a spellbook, and spells seems to be completely out of order. And even if they had levels, it won't change anything because BLU will still have far more spells than he can equip. Like I already said, imagine the mess if every job could only equip half of its job skills, and you can't know what they have before entering the duty.

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Yeah, the spells probably won't have a level requirement to USE them but could very well have one to learn them. I'd imagine it be like any other time you use matchmaking and you don't know what type of players you will be in a party with. I don't need SE to protect me from those situations.

It also sounds like you're assuming that a spell set can't be changed while in an instance.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

This will be only one example, but since you can do a full run of FFIX at level 1, at least Quina is not restricted by his/her level. Khimari or Quistis also don't need any level to have access to any of their spells. And in every game you could still keep one of your paty member to level 1 and allow him/her to cast any spell at the very end.

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Was Quina's chance at eating enemies tied to her level at all? I don't know for sure. Did lancet have a chance to fail on FF9? I don't remember. If it could miss then the chance could have been based on his level. Fair point on Quistis but she would still need to survive long enough to use her limit break.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

I'm a big boy and can handle those situations myself.

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For them, the community can't. Fear of matchmaking being unfair and end in conflict is their excuse for refusing to give depth to the game.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

It also sounds like you're assuming that a spell set can't be changed while in an instance.

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That's my guess. But I admit it's only a guess.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Was Quina's chance at eating enemies tied to her level at all?

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AFAIK, Eat success is only tied to the target's remaining HP.

Quina's ability to learn blue magic wasn't dependent on his/her lvl. I've recently done a low lvl Excalibur II run and you can learn all of the blue magic at lvl 1. Including Limit Glove, Lvl5 Death, Night, Auto-Life, etc. Lancet never failed in FFX, you just had to find the correct fiend to learn the overdrives.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, the only time BLU has ever been gated by level is in FFXI. For every other game, it's just that later monsters tend to teach more powerful spells, and it has nothing to do with the level you are to learn or use a spell. That's exactly why, in FFV, you only have Blue! instead of Blue1! to Blue6!. More importantly, in FFV, Blue Magic is learned by the party, which means a high level Master Blue Bartz could learn a spell usable by a very low level Blue 0 Krile.

No one cares what the order you're supposed to learn spells. White, Black and Red Mages don't have a choice of learning lower tier before higher ones.

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That's wrong though, because you physically cannot enter those areas with those skills with low level BLU's because of boss or story restrictions, and even then a large amount of skills were not usable because they were awful.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Snip snips.

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Given what we know about BLU currently, its playstyle appears to me to be based around the following:

BLU will be able to solo dungeons (that is dungeons will not change any, but BLU will be able to go in at lvl sync and complete those dungeons). To achieve that, it will be done by having BLU grind open world monsters for their skills. These skills being much more powerful will allow BLU to enter dungeons and solo them. The difficulty will not come from learning a rotation or resource management system, but on HOW you use the skills you have. The focus of the job will to be to use monster skills to overcome challanges that normal classes would not be able to overcome by themselves. You will literally be tank/healer/dps all rolled into one.

Now this doesnt preclude BLU from having a resource management system (doubt itll have a set 'rotation' but rather a "If you are in scenario A, use Skills X, Y, and Z. If you are in scenario B, use skills T, U, and V), but that system will be secondary to the main focus of choosing what skills to use in the situation at hand.

My point was that to balance out those monster skills for party play, SE would have to directly nerf the skills themselves and probably in a substantial manner. In doing so, SE would oversimplify the class, which would then require them to expand on the rotation/resource management formula to add gameplay back in as BLU would no longer be able to solo content. This moves the focus away from learning monster skills (which is what makes BLU unique) and more into the class being in line with all the other casters. If that becomes teh case, BLU then simply is a wierd reskin of pre-existing casters, except rather than doing a job quest every 5 levels, or 2, or etc, youd go out and learn your skills from monsters. Which, btw, would have to be pretty easy simply because you cant RNG learning skills in party play because that would be a hamstring to the class. This was one of hte concerns, from my understanding, the devs were also noting - You could end up with players whos RNG sucks so bad they skip skills and are under skilled for content in comparison to other classes who can get their skills reliably every few levels.

You also cant have it where they allow a "Solo Play" mode and "Party Mode" because that would literally require designing to combat classes that both happen to be named BLU. This is because both would require different play styles to function within their respective content.

Perhaps there is a way to get BLU into party play while keeping Monster Skills at strength, but I cant think of a single way to do that, and I havent seen anyone effectively do that either.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Given what we know about BLU currently, its playstyle appears to me to be based around the following:
.[/I]

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I read your comment.

Doesn't this ennoble the Hunters Log? Maybe Blue could have it's own special Hunter Log that goes to lvl 80 Monsers. Hunters Log is great, but now it is relevant beyond experience.

Sorry I'm drunk right now. I love the game and the community.

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Originally Posted by Skyskip

I don't understand you 'wait and see' people.

What are you waiting to see? Their intentions were very clear.

Also to answer the OP's question- I want a BLU playable in all content that every other job can access, full stop, no matter what sacrifices to be made to accomplish that.

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As one of the "wait and see" crowd, for me anyway its because SE often takes ideas that sound hopeful based on its presentation they give before the content is released. Only it for it to fall through and turn into something that's either under whelming or a complete turn around from said original presentation when the content is actually released and turns into a big disappointment.They often give these big overviews of things but don't get into tiny details and showcase things in their full. Tiny details and a showcase I'd say are worth more then just a big overview. In other words it's best to stay on the middle fence, it's not worth getting excited anymore for something that may or may not fall apart in the end.

That said, to the OP that's pretty much my answer. I like the concept to how its being released and I'm going to at least play it and give it a fair shot. I'll make up my mind on it after I wait and see it for myself'

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

That's wrong though, because you physically cannot enter those areas with those skills with low level BLU's because of boss or story restrictions

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Which still has nothing to do with your character level or doesn't require a specific order at which you learn the spells...as opposed to all other mages except Summoners.
Especially in games with a job system, where you can do the whole story without leveling your BLU anytime, which is - GASP!- exactly how FFXIV works.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Which still has nothing to do with your character level or doesn't require a specific order at which you learn the spells...as opposed to all other mages except Summoners.
Especially in games with a job system, where you can do the whole story without leveling your BLU anytime, which is - GASP!- exactly how FFXIV works.

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Semantically it doesn't have anything to do with your character level, you are still gated by your level from actually getting the spells. Which is - GASP! - no different from acquiring skills through exp grinding, let's not forget that a majority of skills aren't even unlocked in ff xiv through leveling, and are instead unlocked through JOB QUESTS. You know, solo instances with their own solo content and fights with objectives and such that are unique to them?

Ala rogue's stealth mission that couldn't possibly have fit into XIV and obviously required it's own separate content because, well, you've never snuck around as a thief before in order to learn your skills!

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

Semantically it doesn't have anything to do with your character level, you are still gated by your level from actually getting the spells.

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So you're just going to ignore every proof like "Quina can learn any spell at level 1", "Khimari can Lancet any target without ever moving on the sphere grid", "Quistis can use any dropped item at her starting level", "A lvl0 Blue Mage could use any spell learn by someone else in FFV" ?

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

Which is - GASP! - no different from acquiring skills through exp grinding

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Things that BLU precisely won't have to do. You will be able to learn Bad Breath from seeing a Morbol attacking someone else in your party. It means you could basically be joined by a lvl70 punching bag just to survive. The only thing that will be tied to any level is the probability of learning a move, and it's not even your level, but the level of your target. The few exceptions will be spells that requires you going into an instance, and even then it will likely be for learning and not for using.

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Originally Posted by Skyskip

Also to answer the OP's question- I want a BLU playable in all content that every other job can access, full stop, no matter what sacrifices to be made to accomplish that.

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So you do not care about the concept of BLU where the core of the class is learning and using powerful monster skills, but rather you just want to play a re-skinned caster that has the name Blue Mage. Thats essentially what youre advocating for.

So many other jobs have been gutted from their core identities to fit into the game, it's baffling why Blue Mage had to be the line in the sand for the developers that THIS job has to be pure and loyal to the original concept of the job. Monk should be the high damage, high HP, low defense bruiser of the game, but it gets beaten out for damage by summoner, has the same defense as a ninja or samurai, and has less HP than a dragoon. Red mage has barely any melee abilities and was made into primarily a casting job. Bard was merged with ranger. Dark knight can't use its HP as a resource.... I could go on, but you get the idea.

Blue mage could have been made into a job that is unique from other blue mages in its method of play, but still a playable job for the game. It's disappointing that its being added more as content than as a job.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

So many other jobs have been gutted from their core identities to fit into the game, it's baffling why Blue Mage had to be the line in the sand for the developers that THIS job has to be pure and loyal to the original concept of the job.

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Because past Blue Mages could fit any role efficiently, which does not work with the holy trinity...and was overpowered...especially in the first game it appeared.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Blue mage could have been made into a job that is unique from other blue mages in its method of play, but still a playable job for the game. It's disappointing that its being added more as content than as a job.

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First off, jobs are content.

Now tell me, how could it been made unique from other casters? Like, I want someone here to fully detail out HOW you could make BLU compatible with PF but still keep the monster skills at 100% power.

Anyone want to take a stab at that? Someone?

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

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Two things:
First; Of the hundreds upon hundreds of monster skills available in FFXIV, why do you assume that the devs will be forced to pick only abilities that will break the game?

Second; The same enemy skill is always going to have different stats for the player and the monster, that's an inevitability. Heck, it'll have different stats depending on which monster is using it, or what level the player is/what gear they have equipped. Saying that blue magic not being a 1-to-1 with the enemy skills is detrimental to the job is silly. Even the Limited version of BLU will be balanced for it's own content, not completely matched to the monster versions of the spells.

Okay, third thing:

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

The argument to just "Balance it for party play" means making it just a reskinned BLM/SMN/RDM.

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Is Ninja just a reskinned Monk? Is Samurai just a reskinned Ninja? I cannot believe how often I see this nonsense get posted.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

First off, jobs are content.

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That is partially correct. There's the process of leveling, and there are the job quests. But jobs are, first and foremost, a lens through which you experience the game. I can run O12 on my BLM or on my AST. I will experience the content differently every time by virtue of playing a different role, and that particular job within that role. But if there is no content to run on that job, that job is meaningless. BLU will have the acquisition of skills, and the Masked Carnival, yes. But it is unlike all other jobs in too many ways, and there's the concern many of us have about its longevity. Can we really expect them to keep feeding BLU additional content? All other jobs get content supplements by virtue of having the rest of the game unlocked. And in that sense, BLU really is more 'content' than a job.

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Now tell me, how could it been made unique from other casters?

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The same way RDM, SMN and BLM all play differently. They do play differently, you're aware of that, yes? Or that all melee dps play differently. They have core similarities, but they're not reskins of each other.

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Like, I want someone here to fully detail out HOW you could make BLU compatible with PF but still keep the monster skills at 100% power.

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Insta-death skills and debuffs didn't work at 100% in other games so I don't see why people, including the devs, expect them to work here. Yoshi-P thinking Level 5 Death should have 100% success rate on the Omegas in O12S is the exception to the rule.

D) Added as it is, with skills that it have being monitored and the most balanced ones being picked for a "matchmaking/current content mandatory" set that allows normal use of matchmaking and entrance into the most recent savage raid and extreme primals.

There is no reason why we can't have both. The full arsenal won't be available freely, that's obvious. The most current raid tier shouldn't allow the overpowered Blue Mage either. But there is no issue with picking the most balanced skills, make a fixed, uncustomizable set of skills that are automatically picked for Duty Finder or current savage/extreme party finder parties, and leave the rest of skills for the remaining content that wouldn't be broken by an overpowered Blue Mage (past raid tiers through party finder, soloing etc.).

That being said, it does require time and extended testing, so I see nothing bad in implementing it without those features. As I've been saying since the day of the live letter, this is an experiment in progress. It will evolve. The worst thing that can be done to it is making developers think that it's either one or the other, when the best option is both.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Insta-death...Yoshi-P thinking Level 5 Death should have 100% success rate on the Omegas in O12S is the exception to the rule.

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To be fair, there were instant-kills in Final Fantasy that did work universally. The most obvious is Zanmato of Yojimnbo in FFX which in its revised form could be forced to be a very frequent skill that will instantly kill anything at all in the game, including the most secret super-boss. Then there is the fact that Phoenix Down is instant-kill on any zombie/undead, even if it's a boss, in some games at least. Doom Train and Yu-Yaevon come to mind. Though bosses aren't actually undead usually and cannot be made zombies.

Yoshida also didn't say anything about it being 100% skill. But even if it's got 5% chance of working, it's still going to be broken.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

So you do not care about the concept of BLU where the core of the class is learning and using powerful monster skills, but rather you just want to play a re-skinned caster that has the name Blue Mage. Thats essentially what youre advocating for.

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And you are literally the only person saying it has to be a 'reskin' of other casters. Does it not occur to you that BLM, SMN and RDM all play differently?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So you're just going to ignore every proof like "Quina can learn any spell at level 1", "Khimari can Lancet any target without ever moving on the sphere grid", "Quistis can use any dropped item at her starting level", "A lvl0 Blue Mage could use any spell learn by someone else in FFV" ?

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Yes because those would still quite literally require you to have a team that is a high enough level to get to that point in the game to encounter the monster, you constantly stating that as being some ironclad reason why BLU CAN'T fit into XIV's system because of--skill progression of all things. Is ridiculous.

Historically jobs have had their OWN POINT SYSTEM which is how they were leveled, and subsequently learned skills. Separate from your main level, on top of that SMN and BLM, WHM and RDM, obtained spells through purchasing them through shops, or in the case of SMN through defeating bosss's and obtaining items.

Wow that seems drastically different than how they obtain them in this game.

I have been waiting patiently and wanting to main BLU for years. My excitement for the new expansion is virtually zero at this point. My question is why is BLU all of the sudden this sacred cow and it must be implemented exactly like it was in FFXI? Practically every job has been changed to fit into the MMORPG dynamic and the vast majority of people have no problems with them. I hope, at the very least, BLU will eventually be able to be a full fledged job in the future.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

Yes because those would still quite literally require you to have a team that is a high enough level to get to that point in the game to encounter the monster

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No
it
does
not
at
all

You know you're supposed to do some research before claiming how historically something works in the franchise...

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

Historically jobs have had their OWN POINT SYSTEM which is how they were leveled, and subsequently learned skills. Separate from your main level, on top of that SMN and BLM, WHM and RDM, obtained spells through purchasing them through shops

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And they still couldn't use those spells without reaching a specific level in the job while Blue could...

At some point, you might want to stop digging...

The issue boils down to a few things that people arent actually giving any thought to. They are:

1) All classes are balanced in relation to one another. Every single one. There is no exception to this.
2) This means that all player skills, broadly speaking, are limited to a certain scope of potential. Whether that is damage output, Status, Range/Size, resource cost, etc. There may be some variance between teh skills, but they still fit within a certain "range".
3) All classes, as a result, must be within range of each other power wise. While you could have differences in power output, those differences will only show up broadly at the highest level of play under certain conditions. Even then, the differences in power are not so drastic that one class is inherently a must pick when it comes to balance proper.

Because of these 3 factors, the defining differences between classes is NOT the skills in of themselves,because when you boil the skills down to their very core, theyre all within relative range of power to one another, but the play styles of the classes themselves. Plenty of you have pointed this out. As an example, Unleash and Overpower are relatively similar. The difference is slight in power and aoe shape when you boil both down, but both skills are comparable. One may be slightly superior, but that doesnt mean that DRK is by far better than WAR. They have ups and downs in certain regards.

To help illustrate this point, imagine every skill is broken into a 30 point system that can be divided up into 3 categories: Damage, Utility, Range.

Lets say:

Monk Skill A has a breakdown of D:15, U:0, R:15.

Dragoon skill A has a breakdown of D:20, U:5, R:5.

While both skills are not identical, their maximum values overall is the same. The power is just distributed differently, but theyre balanced in relation to one another. Neither skill exceeds 30 points of overall power. Monks skill might be better than DRGs, depending the situation, but neither has a skill that is so drastically superior that it is better in all situations by a noticeable margin.

Because of this balancing breakdown, play style affects really how much bang you get in the end. Thats what really separates the classes. Some classes may lean towards more utility than DPS, or more range than Utility, or whatever you want, but theyre all viable. Those playstyles become the identity of the class.

NOW, how does BLU fit into this?

The trouble with BLU is that their skills arent designed for PC use initially. BLU skills dont come from NPCs with players in mind. They come from Monsters who are designed to kill player groups. What this means is that Monster Skills do not fall within the scope of the normal limitations of player skills. So in my hypothetical example above, player skills may fall within a range of 30 points, but monster skills may fall in a range of 90 Points by comparison since it is designed to kill groups of players. This discrepancy lies at the heart of BLU. It would be impossible to balance the game if BLU learned monster skills as is and those skills werent re-balanced to other classes. They would be flat out OP in all content.

Everyone who's a proponent of making BLU part of the usual roster all seem to agree on that factor, and do not mind re-balancing. This is where the disconnect happens.

The playstyle of a class that has such high powered skills and can solo content is vastly different than one that cannot. In the case of the Former, the playstyle would not likely revolve around rotations, priority systems, or resource management as every other class does. Instead it would rely more heavily on picking the right skill for the right situation. The playstyle is more meta rather than more reflexive. It takes a different player skill set to think about how to handle a situation vs learning and memorizing rotations. This is supported by the fact that there is no "hard" skill path. You can learn any skill at any time (supposedly) unlike other classes, so having a larger more expanded kit to pick and choose how to handle content. Also, since you can learn anything at any time, the likely hood of rotation systems or priority systems is severely limited.

However, if you dumb the skills down, youre no longer in the situation where you can solo content and now are more geared for party play. This means the aforementioned system of picking skills for the situation gets thrown out. Instead, they would need to implement a new playstyle. One that is either rotation/priority or resource management based. This then becomes the defining identity and factor of the class. When this happens, it becomes just like every other class in that regards. You end up homogenizing it in efforts to balance it. The whole idea of learning monster skills also becomes moot because at that point, as learning skills from monsters is just a harder method of getting skills compared to other classes with no better yield because the skills have to be balanced to be as powerful as any other class. Because skill acquisition is RNG, not done in any order, and actually by-passable, this complicates how to balance the class at lower levels, unless you mandate that they need to acquire certain skills, which means it becomes just like any other class, except hard to get skills again.

The initial identity of BLU revolves around using MONSTER skills with a playstyle that fits into that theme. HOWEVER, after nerfing things, the identity of BLU switches to whatever the new Playstyle they generate where acquiring skills from monsters is just a side objective. In this regard, BLU loses its unique identity and becomes "just another caster class" with skills that are no better or worse than any other caster broadly. This is what is meant by "Re-skin", or by saying "You just want a caster thats BLU in name only."

This is the issue Im not seeing people resolve. Once you nerf the skills, it doesnt have the same identity as it initially did. It's new party playstyle, whatever that may be, becomes the new identity and what differentiates it from other casters. That new identity will have to fall within a specific range of power that is similar to all the other casters. Where learning monster skills is completely moot because power wise, its no different than any other class. So the gimmick is only novel in as far as the method of getting your skills, but not in application. The skill application is no different than any other casters in that regards. Instead of getting skills from an NPC every 5 or 2 levels, you just go grab them from a monster with a bit of RNG. But it would ultimately end up being just another caster.

It wont be BLU anymore, at least no in spirit. It just becomes a caster with a new rotation/priority/resource management system that has a harder time acquiring its skills compared to other casters. Thats what it boils down to. So when people say things like "Make it work no matter what," those people are sidelining the core aspect of a BLU mage. This really then is just saying "All I really wanted was a new caster class thats called BLU mage."

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

First off, jobs are content.

Now tell me, how could it been made unique from other casters? Like, I want someone here to fully detail out HOW you could make BLU compatible with PF but still keep the monster skills at 100% power.

Anyone want to take a stab at that? Someone?

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If this post were made circa 2015, it would read:

"How could Red Mage be made unique from other casters? Like, I want someone here to fully detail out HOW you could make RDM compatible with PF but still keep their equal balance of healing, casting and melee DPS."

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

It wont be BLU anymore, at least no in spirit. It just becomes a caster with a new rotation/priority/resource management system that has a harder time acquiring its skills compared to other casters. Thats what it boils down to. So when people say things like "Make it work no matter what," those people are sidelining the core aspect of a BLU mage. This really then is just saying "All I really wanted was a new caster class thats called BLU mage."

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And today you could easily say that Red Mage in FFXIV is not RDM, at least not in spirit. You would almost universally be called foolish, but you could say it, and in the truest most technical sense, you would still be correct. XIV's Red Mage does not have the classic jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none style that Red Mage is known for, but that doesn't matter because the job is still fun. And despite being forced to conform to the confines of XIV's systems, very few people would argue that it doesn't still feel like playing a Red Mage. There is no reason to assume that the same thing couldn't have been done with Blue Mage.

I absolutely understand the excitement for the new type of content that Limited Blue Mage will bring, and the fatigue of getting new jobs that need to fit into the same set roles. Those are perfectly valid opinions to have. But the claim that Blue Mage could never have been implemented as a standard job while still keeping its identity is, at the very least, misguided.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

However, if you dumb the skills down, youre no longer in the situation where you can solo content and now are more geared for party play. This means the aforementioned system of picking skills for the situation gets thrown out. Instead, they would need to implement a new playstyle. One that is either rotation/priority or resource management based. This then becomes the defining identity and factor of the class. When this happens, it becomes just like every other class in that regards. You end up homogenizing it in efforts to balance it. The whole idea of learning monster skills also becomes moot because at that point, as learning skills from monsters is just a harder method of getting skills compared to other classes with no better yield because the skills have to be balanced to be as powerful as any other class. Because skill acquisition is RNG, not done in any order, and actually by-passable, this complicates how to balance the class at lower levels, unless you mandate that they need to acquire certain skills, which means it becomes just like any other class, except hard to get skills again.

The initial identity of BLU revolves around using MONSTER skills with a playstyle that fits into that theme. HOWEVER, after nerfing things, the identity of BLU switches to whatever the new Playstyle they generate where acquiring skills from monsters is just a side objective. In this regard, BLU loses its unique identity and becomes "just another caster class" with skills that are no better or worse than any other caster broadly. This is what is meant by "Re-skin", or by saying "You just want a caster thats BLU in name only."

This is the issue Im not seeing people resolve. Once you nerf the skills, it doesnt have the same identity as it initially did.

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Regarding the situational playstyle versus the usual dps rotation, I think the Perform system which was made for BRD would be great for BLU. Activate "Solo Mode" and a new set of action bars pop up, and they include a selection of monster skills you are supposed to use outdoors and in the Carnival (what has been developed for the job so far). The skills you can put on these action bars come from a separate list of skills you learn from monsters through RNG, will never be balanced, are easy to implement because of that, and cannot be used against enemies higher than level 50 or in instances except the Carnival.

Another set of skills could be learned through job quests up to level 70, which would enable BLU to be a real job that can do every piece of content this game has to offer. These job quests could be ignored by anyone who does not like the play style, and this would prevent the player from entering any content BLU is currently planned to be banned from.

Additionally, nerfing dps does not have to mean loss of skill potency. It can also be done by increasing the casting time or cooldown of skills. It would be possible to have massive nukes in the party-oriented rotation learned from job quests. A slow casting mage or a mage weaving several mid-length or long cooldowns in their base rotation would both be a totally new kind of mage play style, which shows that BLU doesn't have to be a copy of other mages.

Option D: Leave it as is AND usable in all Content

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There are plenty of ways showcased in other FF games to make BLU in GROUP CONTENT POSSIBLE. not least of which ffxi which everything was group content.

The Level 5 Death example in the PLL while true if it was how it worked 99% of Blue Mage KO skills either did a good chunk of damage to a boss or boss was immune to it. This is Cannologically Lore to the series. Why restrict it? Does Stun work on all bosses? Sleep? Knockbacks? Of course not.

There is also the well if they dont get their skills they're useless/unprepared.... Make a system check (Does Blu have X set skills, yes? Can queue Y dungeons and lower) This would be a check just like "Are you a battle Class?" or "Are you level? "Is your Ilvl High enough"
Could also use the Masked Carnivale to be a prereq for 8man content. A Quest marker (ie the way you can't run 8m Raids until you've completed X MSQ) Before you start screaming that it's solo gameplay, I know. The purpose would be Win 3 sets ( or how many) of Carnivale. This would then Unlock 8man+ content because you showed sufficient proficiency of Blu Mastery to run content.

I'm sure there will be achievements for Skills Unlocked. Could make one, ie 30, unlock roulettes.

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Originally Posted by Asheilin

Option D: Leave it as is AND usable in all Content

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Popular idiom

You can't put a square peg in a round hole. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No
it
does
not
at
all

You know you're supposed to do some research before claiming how historically something works in the franchise...

And they still couldn't use those spells without reaching a specific level in the job while Blue could...

At some point, you might want to stop digging...

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Samurai

Samurai

Bard

Samurai

Now show me them learning a skill with a BLU in that team. All I'm getting from your post is that, there are certain strategies in SINGLE PLAYER final fantasy games that are incredibly abusable. I really don't get what this was supposed to prove?

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Popular idiom

You can't put a square peg in a round hole. Sorry.

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I think you didn't even read the article you linked. Not only did you use the wrong idiom, but you are also entirely incorrect.

You can fit a square peg in a round hole, and a round peg in a square hole. The peg simply needs to be small enough. It will not fit perfectly though, leaving spots "free". That is why it is an idiom about society. People not suited to some sort of society due to cultural, ideological or religious reasons still can (and do) live in it, but they never really "fit in" properly.
The use of this idiom that you presented is a modern take from people that were simply ignorant of its true meaning and butchered it up.

In terms of Blue Mage however that does not apply, due to pretty much all people understanding that Blue Mage cannot be allowed in Duty Finder with the ridiculously overpowered skills. The difference in opinion is on whether they should be removed/balanced or left.

But that leaves the option of there being perfectly balanced builds with developers forcing them in the content that requires that balance. Think about it like a moldable clay peg in any hole. It'll just fit right in whichever it's pushed into.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

I think you didn't even read the article you linked. Not only did you use the wrong idiom, but you are also entirely incorrect.

You can fit a square peg in a round hole, and a round peg in a square hole. The peg simply needs to be small enough. It will not fit perfectly though, leaving spots "free". That is why it is an idiom about society. People not suited to some sort of society due to cultural, ideological or religious reasons still can (and do) live in it, but they never really "fit in" properly.

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OMG, what? Are you also the type of person to deny facts such as evolution, human influenced climate change, and the Earth being round? Several times now you come here challenging my statements saying I don't know what I'm talking about when all evidence shows the opposite. There's no variable here explaining how large or small the peg is. If you've ever done a logic puzzle, or any kind of conclusive reasoning you would know that thinking about anything other than the facts given only serves to over complicate it.

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"Square peg in a round hole" is an idiomatic expression which describes the unusual individualist who could not fit into a niche of their society.

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Now let me modify this a bit to exhibit the point that has clearly flown over your head:

"Square peg in a round hole" is an idiomatic expression which describes the unusual individualist (BLU) who could not fit into a niche of their society (Duty finder).

If you think about this in anything more than the context given, then I can't be faulted if you simply don't get it.

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The use of this idiom that you presented is a modern take from people that were simply ignorant of its true meaning and butchered it up.

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Who's butchering up an idiom when they start talking about, "OH! but a square peg CAN fit if it's smaller than the round hole"? It's some real SJW agenda type mentalities that actually take something and redefine it to serve their agenda.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

I really don't get what this was supposed to prove?

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What that proves is that you know nothing about how past BLU worked in each game...and that your claim of "your team had to have a high level to encounter a monster" is a pure nonsense.
Seriously, at that point, I'm really starting to wonder if you even played past games.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

This is the issue Im not seeing people resolve. Once you nerf the skills, it doesnt have the same identity as it initially did. It's new party playstyle, whatever that may be, becomes the new identity and what differentiates it from other casters. That new identity will have to fall within a specific range of power that is similar to all the other casters. Where learning monster skills is completely moot because power wise, its no different than any other class. So the gimmick is only novel in as far as the method of getting your skills, but not in application. The skill application is no different than any other casters in that regards. Instead of getting skills from an NPC every 5 or 2 levels, you just go grab them from a monster with a bit of RNG. But it would ultimately end up being just another caster.

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See, this is where I get confused. It is not BLU's identity to be OP. It is not BLU's identity to have 40+ skills to pick from with some completely breaking the game. And it is not BLU's identity to be a solo class. That was neverBLU's identity.


BLU's only identity is learning and using monster skills, full stop. Nothing else. Those skills can be balanced for the job's hands and have been in many of the games. There's nothing wrong with FFXIV doing it as well. Please stop adding all these other factors to BLU's identity and then claim that balancing the job will ruin it.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

What that proves is that you know nothing about how past BLU worked in each game...and that your claim of "your team had to have a high level to encounter a monster" is a pure nonsense.
Seriously, at that point, I'm really starting to wonder if you even played past games.

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You literally did not show anyone learning a BLU mage skill or refute my claim that YOU WOULD NEED A HIGHER LEVEL PARTY TO SURVIVE ACQUIRING THE SKILL, just because you have someone using a LVL 1 challenge/strat does not equate to how someone would NORMALLY go about acquiring BLU skills. You've proven literally nothing besides the point that it's possible to enter higher level story locked areas with low level jobs, which I wasn't disputing I was disputing that there was no hard level cap restricting a BLU from learning skills.

This isn't even taking into account Monster skills that require a beastmaster to force the use of a skill.

So no, I still really don't get what this was supposed to prove.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

You literally did not show anyone learning a BLU mage skill or refute my claim that YOU WOULD NEED A HIGHER LEVEL PARTY TO SURVIVE ACQUIRING THE SKILL

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Sure, how come a low level 1 character could survive a spell that cut its HP by half ? How would a low level character with gear that absorbs Fire would survive Flame Thrower ? How would a low level character wearing a Ribbon would survive Bad Breath ?
But I have a better question, why do you care about surviving when surviving the hit is not a requirement in FFV or VI ? Why do you care about surviving when you don't learn skills by being hit by them in FF VIII, IX, and X ?

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

You literally did not show anyone learning a BLU mage skill or refute my claim that YOU WOULD NEED A HIGHER LEVEL PARTY TO SURVIVE ACQUIRING THE SKILL, just because you have someone using a LVL 1 challenge/strat does not equate to how someone would NORMALLY go about acquiring BLU skills. You've proven literally nothing besides the point that it's possible to enter higher level story locked areas with low level jobs, which I wasn't disputing I was disputing that there was no hard level cap restricting a BLU from learning skills.

This isn't even taking into account Monster skills that require a beastmaster to force the use of a skill.

So no, I still really don't get what this was supposed to prove.

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It's supposed to prove that you're wrong and that there isn't a hard level cap restriciting a BLU from learning skills.

At the very worst, you can claim monster level is a soft level cap restriciting a BLU from learning skills, in which monster might be too strong to let BLU learn their skill. But most soft caps can always be overcome with tricks and techniques.

A hard level cap would be: despite anything you do, game won't allow you to learn a skill if your level is too low (learning fails and game displays a message "your level is too low for this skill")

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Originally Posted by Gemina

OMG, what? Are you also the type of person to deny facts such as evolution, human influenced climate change, and the Earth being round?

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No, partially (humans affect climate, but climate changes naturally to a far greater degree), no.

There's no universal "one size fits all".

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Several times now you come here challenging my statements saying I don't know what I'm talking about when all evidence shows the opposite.

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I think you have a very severe memory issue.

In all my life I did respond to you directly three times going by post search. This one, one time in a thread over two months ago (and did mention you another time there, but didn't respond to you) and twelve and a half months ago. Once I argued your use of the word antiquated, once discussed a button bloat topic.

On the other hand, what evidence shows the opposite?! Again, the very people that "don't fit society" still exist within it in some form. How then, tell me, does that apply to Blue Mage that have no access to Duty Finder at all?

That being said, again, Blue Mage cannot be used in Duty Finder, but it is possible to make it usable without actually changing anything outside of it.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

There's no variable here explaining how large or small the peg is. If you've ever done a logic puzzle, or any kind of conclusive reasoning you would know that thinking about anything other than the facts given only serves to over complicate it.

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That's the problem here. You are the one adding to the facts.

"Square peg in a round hole" is the idiom, right?! Where, do tell, does it say that it doesn't fit?! I see that it is IN the hole. It is a fundamental difference, because your 'doesn't fit' is at best implied, at worst just an overactive imagination. Or do you need me to bring in the definition of 'in' to you now?!

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Who's butchering up an idiom when they start talking about, "OH! but a square peg CAN fit if it's smaller than the round hole"?

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Well...the one that's giving it different meanings, of course. Language is ever-changing, but idioms are idioms for a reason. Idioms shouldn't change, otherwise they stop being idioms and become personal sayings at most. The part about fitting in does not exist in the idiom. The idiom only talks about the peg that's a different geometrical shape than a hole, being in it. Which means that it simply does not match it properly. There is nowhere in sight, neither in the idiom itself nor in its original meaning, anything implying that it's meant to mean that you cannot put a square peg in a round hole. At all.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

the only time BLU has ever been gated by level is in FFXI.

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Even though you've been going back and forth with MrKimper for days, I feel like you just glossed over the most important part right away. One of the only things we know about FFXIV's Blue Mage is that it's far more similar to XI's BLU than any other game. XI is the only game besides XIV to give Blue Mages over 30 blue magic spells, but only allow them access a few at a time.

Given how hard they seem to aping XI's style of BLU, it's not at all unreasonable to assume that blue magic will be level restricted in this game as well. If the job comes out and it turns out a level 1 BLU can go into Akh Afah Ampitheatre, and learn Shiva's bow ability and is able to use it at level 1, I'll be eating crow, but I seriously doubt that's going to be the case.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

Given how hard they seem to aping XI's style of BLU, it's not at all unreasonable to assume that blue magic will be level restricted in this game as well. If the job comes out and it turns out a level 1 BLU can go into Akh Afah Ampitheatre, and learn Shiva's bow ability and is able to use it at level 1, I'll be eating crow, but I seriously doubt that's going to be the case.

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Blue Mage won't be able to enter instances of a higher level than they are, no different to other classes. But that does not mean that skills will be gated behind levels. The question is whether they will be able to learn them from the mobs that they have access to.

That being said...does it really matter?! It's not even relevant to the topic. There are other threads about Blue Mage that talk about its mechanics.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

There is nowhere in sight, neither in the idiom itself nor in its original meaning, anything implying that it's meant to mean that you cannot put a square peg in a round hole. At all.

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The full idiom is literally, "You can't fit a square peg in a round hole."

I definitely disagree with calling a BLU a square peg that can't fit into the round hole of XIV's group content, but I'm sorry, you're just straight up wrong about the meaning of the phrase.