Hoarding Houses - Sometimes a Depressing Sight (a rant)

My response got deleted

https://media1.tenor.com/images/69c0...9775/tenor.gif

Oh well, I said what I had to say about this, truth seems to hurt enough to warrant a report. :)

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Originally Posted by Frizze

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I'm not sure why you're so invested in painting the people that do this as anything but the purest saints from the highest heaven but considering what I've had to go through in my quest to obtain ONE PLOT, I couldn't care less about people with several. What reason is there to have plots in the double digits? How is that fair to new and future players? What about if there's an influx of people after 5.0 hits? I'm talking about possible server transfers if people decide to make their visits permanent.

Just because SE completely underestimated how ridiculous people would be ( as well as implementing a horrific system ) doesn't mean that those who decided to go to town should get to keep their gains. Everyone should have the same housing limits across the board. Hoarders, Scalpers, Bots, and RMT all thrived because of the actions of many.

Not really sure what point you're trying to make about Lamia either because as I recall VERY VIVIDLY there were serious problems with all of these things for years until some of the last expansions to Wards were added. Selfish and opportunistic types went out their way to make things harder for everyone else. They will not get an ounce of my sympathy.

I couldn't care less what you do to your sub. It's your money.

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Originally Posted by ErryK

My response got deleted


Oh well, I said what I had to say about this, truth seems to hurt enough to warrant a report. :)

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Except it wasn't truth. It was your personal opinion and that's all it was. There is room for housing in this game as much as there is in any MMORPG. We are, after all, roleplaying our characters. Not everyone thinks of their character as a homeless murder hobo.

Not sure why the mods felt a need to delete it without also deleting all the replies quoting it, though. It was just your opinion and nothing particularly inflammatory.

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Originally Posted by Giruvegan

I'm not sure why you're so invested in painting the people that do this as anything but the purest saints from the highest heaven but considering what I've had to go through in my quest to obtain ONE PLOT, I couldn't care less about people with several. What reason is there to have plots in the double digits? How is that fair to new and future players? What about if there's an influx of people after 5.0 hits? I'm talking about possible server transfers if people decide to make their visits permanent.

Just because SE completely underestimated how ridiculous people would be ( as well as implementing a horrific system ) doesn't mean that those who decided to go to town should get to keep their gains. Everyone should have the same housing limits across the board. Hoarders, Scalpers, Bots, and RMT all thrived because of the actions of many.

Not really sure what point you're trying to make about Lamia either because as I recall VERY VIVIDLY there were serious problems with all of these things for years until some of the last expansions to Wards were added. Selfish and opportunistic types went out their way to make things harder for everyone else. They will not get an ounce of my sympathy.

I couldn't care less what you do to your sub. It's your money.

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Wouldn't it be better for SE to improve things so the limits could be increased to accommodate all players who would like to own multiple houses instead of taking houses away from those who obtained them in a legitimate fashion?

As people have repeatedly pointed out, taking away the relatively few houses from the multi-house owners is ineffective in meeting the demand that still exists on many servers. So you get maybe a hundred houses at most freed up on the overpopulated servers. That does nothing for the thousands who still won't be able to get one after those hundred get purchased.

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Originally Posted by not_ya_wify

If you had 7 houses, each of them exquisitely decorated and the storage probably full of furniture too, how would you feel if SE suddenly demolished 6 of them?

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Been a while since I have been in my own thread.

I would never have seven houses because I would feel too guilty to even consider knowingly permanently depriving other players of housing. Decorating is one of my favourite things to do. I lvled up all my crafters with the sole intention of supporting my love for housing. If houses were in an unlimited quantity, I would take great joy in owning as many as ten.

I actually had the opportunity to have two personal houses, twice. The first time I snagged a plot on an alt and waited for my friends' fc to get to rank 6, and I later demolished it so they could take it. The second time I snagged a plot on another alt for a friend who I knew wanted a house badly but was at work when the plot became empty. I did not receive any form of payment for what I did. I have far more gil than I need and I was happy to use it to help my friends get their houses. I even ended up paying for one of those plots twice.

The plot I held for that fc, I had it for over a month because that fc was very small at the time and it was during exam time for the members so they couldn't play a lot until their exams were over. It took them a while to get to rank 6. Even though I bought the plot with the full intention of releasing it for free, I honestly still felt guilty about it. I did wonder if I took a plot someone else would have adored even more than my friends, from someone else who waited for years to get a house. I wondered did someone's heart sink when they saw the icon on the map change after it was purchased. Even though I knew I was going to release it to players who wanted it so much, I still had that nagging feeling that I deprived someone of a house right up until I demolished it.

So no, I cannot put myself in the place of someone who lovingly decorated their seven homes because I am incapable of taking more than what I considered at the time to be my fair share. And it seemed SE agreed with what that fair share was too given that they changed the amount of houses a player could own on a server to one fc house and one private house, save for those they grandfathered in of course.

I could have been one of these grandfathered players. Estimating the amount of free plots I saw before 4.2, I could have owned twelve houses. But apparently in these forums I'm a strange person for not taking them, and for not arguing that they should never be taken from me even though it literally deprives other players of playable content. I find it quite sad to see players defending those who are blocking others from accessing content with their greed. Perhaps they have forgotten what it is like to have the money to buy a house and see nothing but full wards for months or even years. Perhaps they never knew.

While the housing situation is far better than before, and quite a lot of servers do have unclaimed plots, this still doesn't fix the issue that not all plots are equal. Most of the time these free plots are small. As long as certain furniture has limitations based on house size, a cottage will never be truly enough for a fc. I know this from personal experience because my fc started off with a cottage and now has a medium house.

My personal house is a medium and I do feel guilty about it sometimes because I know it's quite big for one person. But I love gardening and SE only allow one gardening patch for cottages. This was why I aimed for a medium. I would seriously consider downsizing if that limitation was removed.

So for anyone who had the patience to read these walls of text, maybe now you can understand my stance with housing better even if you don't agree with it.

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And now for more walls.

Despite what people may think of me from what I said in this thread, I don't want anyone to have anything taken away from them. I want a different housing system but I don't see that situation realistically happening. We have had countless threads asking for a system that would benefit all equally and the few times we have been answered it's just been tweak after tweak. The likelihood of SE letting go of the ward system, or introducing an additional housing system, is sadly very small. So the best we realistically can hope for is more tweaks.

I would prefer instanced housing, not just because it would mean everyone could keep everything forever, but also because of experiences such as:

My fc had the unfortunate situation in which a player arrived near the fc plot who had bullied a fc member in the past, and understandably they were greatly upset at seeing them. At the time there were some unclaimed plots nearby and they were terrified that person would buy one. If we had instanced housing everyone could feel safe at their personal or fc plots inside and outside, and would never have to worry who their neighbours might be.

I once went into a friend's house and found people doing emotes in such a way that it appeared to be like sexual intercourse (I'm sure we have all seen them by now). My friend asked them to leave but they refused to. It was at least 20 minutes before they left. My friend kept their house locked for months after that, which meant inviting anyone who wasn't a tenant became tiresome. If we had instanced housing this wouldn't have happened. My friend could keep their door unlocked for all their friends, but locked to everyone else.

Another friend had to take down their target dummy from their garden because a nearby fc was constantly using it. They love their plot location and like to go there to craft or just to chill out while queuing. But this fc invaded their garden and repeatedly came back no matter how many times they were asked to get a dummy for their own garden instead of using someone else's. They finally got their own one, but only after my friend took down theirs.

I have other little stories like this, but these are the ones that stand out. The first one was particularly alarming for me because as a fc leader I have a duty to keep my members happy and I honestly felt powerless in that situation. I can't really report a player for going somewhere that is a public venue, nor can I stop them from buying a house nearby. Though that situation lead to little other than worry that eventually dissipated, this doesn't mean it won't happen again and could lead to something more. I care deeply for my fc and if we had instanced housing I could control the environment of our fc house far better.

And finally to add my small hope for the future:

At the last fan fest SE hinted at Ishgard housing, and also revealed content in which we would help repair Ishgard. My hope is that the reward for this will be a proper instanced house for the WoL as thanks for helping rebuild the city. Extremely unlikely, but I'm hoping.

Just revoke the grandfathering and give those that have multiple houses a choice in which one they want to keep, it is simple as that whenever it get to it, bad PR or not, in this case it would not be bad PR to give everyone a fair or better chance at even getting their first house... I don't think so, SE has all the rights to change gameplay over time, if want to have multiple houses play a game like Starwars Galaxy EMU or something down those lines, there you can even build cities in the open, or go for minecraft or something.

It say in the ToS somewhere that gameplay and requirements may change over time, and that is a legit document that every players has signed, also as a player you don't own your account SE does and can be set free to change stuff with making an addition to the ToS you have to sign to be able to log into the game with eg. the next patch.

No need to @me on this either, view and standpoint will not change to that either.

On that note, if people decide to have 10 paid subscriptions, 10 houses and 10 FCs would be ok with that as it is 10 different accounts :)

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Despite what people may think of me from what I said in this thread, I don't want anyone to have anything taken away from them.

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I wonder why people might think that... looks at original post

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I know players are allowed to do what they want with their houses, and this does include doing nothing, but as long as there are limited plots then SE should do their best to make sure as many players as possible benefit from the current system. Grandfathering goes against that.

I really hope SE will soon make all characters have access to the same private home, and at the same time take away excess housing from these grandfathered players. No one needs seven houses.

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Looks like people might think you want things taken away from them because you said exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

If we had instanced housing this wouldn't have happened. My friend could keep their door unlocked for all their friends, but locked to everyone else.

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You're assuming that the locks for instanced housing would be different than what we currently have, when they probably would not. Apartments and FC rooms are an all or nothing kind of deal since there are no tenants. Houses are tenants only or everyone. If we had a friend only option, then your friend could have done that with their current house (no need for instanced housing in this example).

With all that said, SE, please, please, please give us a third option for locking our house where only people on our friend list can come in. Also, despite me pointing out it wasn't needed in that example, I'd love to see an instanced housing system in addition to the wards we currently have. I personally really like the feel of the wards, but I understand many people do not and wards are a huge strain on the servers that really cannot address the housing needs of the more populated servers. We need another type of housing which can grow with the population of a server and some form of instanced housing would probably be the best solution for that.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

I wonder why people might think that... looks at original post



Looks like people might think you want things taken away from them because you said exactly that.



You're assuming that the locks for instanced housing would be different than what we currently have, when they probably would not. Apartments and FC rooms are an all or nothing kind of deal since there are no tenants. Houses are tenants only or everyone. If we had a friend only option, then your friend could have done that with their current house (no need for instanced housing in this example).

With all that said, SE, please, please, please give us a third option for locking our house where only people on our friend list can come in. Also, despite me pointing out it wasn't needed in that example, I'd love to see an instanced housing system in addition to the wards we currently have. I personally really like the feel of the wards, but I understand many people do not and wards are a huge strain on the servers that really cannot address the housing needs of the more populated servers. We need another type of housing which can grow with the population of a server and some form of instanced housing would probably be the best solution for that.

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The current housing system is instanced, you travel to another instance with house plots in them and the houses themself is instances, having it hard instanced so you can't meet your neighbors and the likes, no thank you please.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Just revoke the grandfathering and give those that have multiple houses a choice in which one they want to keep, it is simple as that whenever it get to it, bad PR or not, in this case it would not be bad PR to give everyone a fair or better chance at even getting their first house... I don't think so, SE has all the rights to change gameplay over time, if want to have multiple houses play a game like Starwars Galaxy EMU or something down those lines, there you can even build cities in the open, or go for minecraft or something.

It say in the ToS somewhere that gameplay and requirements may change over time, and that is a legit document that every players has signed, also as a player you don't own your account SE does and can be set free to change stuff with making an addition to the ToS you have to sign to be able to log into the game with eg. the next patch.

No need to @me on this either, view and standpoint will not change to that either.

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You've played a game for 5 years, bought multiple houses at these prices, and now because there are more people playing than SE thought would want to play you should have to give up something you worked really hard for? How is it fair to take something away from a player that they have had for years because more people started playing the game? Especially when there are servers like Zalera, Goblin, Brynhildr, & Coeurl that have tons of empty plots available? While this might not change your mind, I hope that it might give you something to think about, and maybe give you a bit of empathy for some of the people on the other side. And the User Agreement we all agreed to when starting the game has not been changed at all since August 24, 2013. I would hazard to guess that while you're correct that SE can change it at any point, they aren't going to any time soon (even though it really should have been updated a few times since then).

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

The current housing system is instanced, you travel to another instance with house plots in them and the houses themself is instances, having it hard instanced so you can't meet your neighbors and the likes, no thank you please.

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I love our ward system. Many others do not. I would like to see the option for those that do want it, and maybe as a way for all characters to be able to have their own house and not just an apartment (or maybe just an apartment if they really do expand them like they said they were looking into).
quick edit - As I understand it our current housing system is not truly instanced with all of the wards from all of the worlds constantly taking up space like the other worlds zones on the servers. While the insides of the houses are instanced, the wards themselves are not.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

I wonder why people might think that... looks at original post

Looks like people might think you want things taken away from them because you said exactly that.

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Why is it so difficult for you to understand that I am asking for what SE are more likely to do than for what they're exceptionally unlikely to do? Have you not heard of the phrase "lesser of two evils"? Or does this not apply to housing because that would mean vaguely agreeing with me?

Years, literal years, have shown us they're not leaving the ward system behind and they're not going to do an overhaul. Unless the community rally together in a wave like with the Shirogane launch the likelihood of getting a better housing system is near zero.

And no, grandfathered players losing houses won't personally suit me because I already am at the limit as to how much housing I can access, and I presently have no intention of relocating plots. I would have zero personal gain from them losing their houses. I am thinking of other players not as fortunate as I am but this has somehow become a novel concept here. It seems now most people are more interested in protecting the special circumstances of hoarders than thinking of the housing community as a whole. This has become a weird game of monopoly.

Sigh I suppose there will be more posts preaching at me to ask SE to do something better than remove grandfathering. Well I have to say to those people, why don't you make those threads? I cared enough about housing to make this one, do you not care enough about housing to make your own with your views and ideas? And if I think it's good, you'll see me there giving my support even if you are one of the people who strongly disagreed with me here.

I want everyone to have as many houses as they want. I just don't believe SE will ever put us in the position for this to happen. But if you want to fight for it, I'll fight for it with you.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

You're assuming that the locks for instanced housing would be different than what we currently have, when they probably would not

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We're both assuming considering a proper instanced house system literally doesn't exist in this game.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Wouldn't it be better for SE to improve things so the limits could be increased to accommodate all players who would like to own multiple houses instead of taking houses away from those who obtained them in a legitimate fashion?

As people have repeatedly pointed out, taking away the relatively few houses from the multi-house owners is ineffective in meeting the demand that still exists on many servers. So you get maybe a hundred houses at most freed up on the overpopulated servers. That does nothing for the thousands who still won't be able to get one after those hundred get purchased.

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I guess you missed the part where I said that I think the number of houses everyone owns should be equal. If hoarding wasn't possible it would exclude less people trying to get the chance to experience this content. I don't think house hoarders should be accommodated at all, at least as long as housing is a limited resource.

Just move to another server with free plots when the transfer comes out, then spend your time on your old server. Guarantee most of Balmung without housing will do it.

Ill notate this to make my response easier. Bold is me.

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Originally Posted by Giruvegan

I'm not sure why you're so invested in painting the people that do this as anything but the purest saints from the highest heaven Are the only options that someone is either the purest of saints or the vilest evil creature imaginable? Im not "painting" people who legitimately bought multiple plots as anything other then players who broke no rules. but considering what I've had to go through in my quest to obtain ONE PLOT, I couldn't care less about people with several. And im sure i wouldnt really be that invested in the sad sad story of how hard you struggled to get your plot. Anymore then you would care about the story behind how i ended up with mine. What reason is there to have plots in the double digits? Wait, do you really think all(or even most) the grandfathered accounts are sitting on 10+ houses? I would LOVE to see someone do an actual server by server count for this. The number of people im aware of across all servers with more then 10 houses i could count on one hand. How is that fair to new and future players? What about if there's an influx of people after 5.0 hits? This game is full of things that new and future players have no access to and no way of obtaining. How is it fair that a new player can never get the rewards from some of the old limited events that will never come by again? How is it fair to a future PvPer that theyll never have a shot at the rewards from the early feast seasons? I'm talking about possible server transfers if people decide to make their visits permanent. If you visited a server first and then decided to transfer there without checking if the housing situation met your standards then that problem is entirely yours.

Just because SE completely underestimated how ridiculous people would be ( as well as implementing a horrific system ) doesn't mean that those who decided to go to town should get to keep their gains. Everyone should have the same housing limits across the board. Hoarders, Scalpers, Bots, and RMT all thrived because of the actions of many. People who didnt break the rules shouldnt be punished. If the system is broke, fix it. Add ishgardian doman and ala mhigan housing wards. Fix instanced housing so that it isnt seen as a "lesser" option. Allow FCs access to the workshop subs and airships without needing a house(and i guarantee you, THIS would open up a TON more houses then removing grandfathered lots). Or come up with a better idea then all of these and do that.

Not really sure what point you're trying to make about Lamia either because as I recall VERY VIVIDLY there were serious problems with all of these things for years until some of the last expansions to Wards were added. Selfish and opportunistic types went out their way to make things harder for everyone else. They will not get an ounce of my sympathy. My point about Lamia was simply that you were complaining about housing being insufficient while playing on a server that has more housing then it currently needs. I also remember when things were worse then they are now. I handful of friends talked me into joining them in game, some going out of there way to talk up limited housing as a plus. They never mentioned that the server they were getting me to join was sold out at the time. I was so salty about it when it finally dawned on me(a few of them leaving the game just as i was catching up didnt help - im not still friends with all of these people). Then they expanded housing(several times) and i eventually got my house. I guess one of the differences between you and me is that i stopped being upset about it.

I couldn't care less what you do to your sub. It's your money.

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And im not implying that you should care about my sub, i was merely pointing out that it isnt only people with multiple lots who would see this as a violation of trust and choose to quit. The problem with taking away something that was fairly earned is that once youve started where do you stop? You start with grandfathered in multiple plot owners. This wont open up enough plots, so what next? Individuals with personal lots of large or medium size? FCs with less then 50 members? FCs with less then 10? FCs with only one or two members? Individuals with lots in the wards rather then instanced apartments? People who didnt do a "good enough" job decorating their house? I was against the idea of the demolition timer at first, because it was something they had promised not to do. I convinced myself that it was ok because they were only taking away things that werent being used(most of the houses demo'd belonged to former players afterall). Im still not sure even THAT was the right move. If someone paid 300+ million for a house(back when that was harder to earn), spent millions more and hundreds of hours decorating it, then took a break from the game around 3.0(demolition was added in 3.1) and decided to come back in 5.0 only to find their home long gone... i can only imagine how devastated and betrayed they would feel.

No. Fix the system. They have the ability. Saying you dont think they can just gets them off the hook for having to do it. If the game is going to grow then the problem will only get worse. The longer it gets put off, the harder itll be to do but eventually it will need to be done. Theres been some rumors floating around that 5.0 will see them make some revisions to the game and/or the MSQ to make getting into the later sections a little easier. Seems like a perfect time to go into the housing system and make the fixes necessary for the next stage in this games life.

I have a medium personal house and hubby and I have a 2-person small house FC with alts. Only change I'd like to see is not having to pay 2 other people to stand in a group in the workshop to deal with ships and subs. We are very capable of gathering what is needed for any upgrades and launch cost and frankly, we don't want any more people in the FC unless they are casual and like-minded, too many headaches.

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Originally Posted by Lubu_Mykono

Just move to another server with free plots when the transfer comes out, then spend your time on your old server. Guarantee most of Balmung without housing will do it.

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Any smart person on these smaller server are buying the free plots by now.

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Are the only options that someone is either the purest of saints or the vilest evil creature imaginable? Im not "painting" people who legitimately bought multiple plots as anything other then players who broke no rules.

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Maybe if you had actually just said this instead of quoting poetry I would've taken your point more seriously. Today I learned that if you hoard plots and there is a danger of them being taken away then you are on par with people that have survived Nazi Germany but, I'm the one whose ' upset '.

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Wait, do you really think all(or even most) the grandfathered accounts are sitting on 10+ houses? The number of people im aware of across all servers with more then 10 houses i could count on one hand.

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I don't care how many people you know of that have 10+ plots. There are others outside of whoever you know that own that many anyway. My point is that it shouldn't be allowed in the first place. You seem to be under the assumption that I'm trying to fix the housing problems everywhere when my point has been: ' the number of plots each person has should be equal '. Plots being grandfathered shouldn't have happened based on the current system.

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How is it fair that a new player can never get the rewards from some of the old limited events that will never come by again? How is it fair to a future PvPer that theyll never have a shot at the rewards from the early feast seasons?

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None of these things have the same demand as housing does and you know it. It's not like those rewards were a limited resource that only a few could earn only to have people stockpile them and make earning them impossible for anyone else. If you're going to make false equivalences then don't bother replying to me again.

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If you visited a server first and then decided to transfer there without checking if the housing situation met your standards then that problem is entirely yours.

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If you bought multiple plots when you knew that they were limited and other people were locked out of content all the time so you could experience it multiple times then your loss is entirely yours.

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People who didnt break the rules shouldnt be punished. If the system is broke, fix it...

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It's funny because I never said that removing grandfathering would meet the demand. This is a claim you've made up by yourself. If they actually fix the current issues, on more populated servers especially, then everyone wins.

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My point about Lamia was simply that you were complaining about housing being insufficient while playing on a server that has more housing then it currently needs. I guess one of the differences between you and me is that i stopped being upset about it.

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It's almost as if you can be against something even if it's not affecting you personally. You said you didn't care about my housing story and then preceded to tell me about yours? Okay.

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Saying you dont think they can just gets them off the hook for having to do it. If the game is going to grow then the problem will only get worse. The longer it gets put off, the harder itll be to do but eventually it will need to be done.

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I never said this. You seem really fond of putting words in my mouth to make up your own rebuttals. Unless there is a new system implemented that can satisfy the needs of everyone then grandfathering and house hoarding shouldn't be allowed.

I'll say it again since you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension: The number of housing plots owned should be equal for everyone.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

You've played a game for 5 years, bought multiple houses at these prices, and now because there are more people playing than SE thought would want to play you should have to give up something you worked really hard for? How is it fair to take something away from a player that they have had for years because more people started playing the game? Especially when there are servers like Zalera, Goblin, Brynhildr, & Coeurl that have tons of empty plots available? While this might not change your mind, I hope that it might give you something to think about, and maybe give you a bit of empathy for some of the people on the other side. And the User Agreement we all agreed to when starting the game has not been changed at all since August 24, 2013. I would hazard to guess that while you're correct that SE can change it at any point, they aren't going to any time soon (even though it really should have been updated a few times since then).



I love our ward system. Many others do not. I would like to see the option for those that do want it, and maybe as a way for all characters to be able to have their own house and not just an apartment (or maybe just an apartment if they really do expand them like they said they were looking into).
quick edit - As I understand it our current housing system is not truly instanced with all of the wards from all of the worlds constantly taking up space like the other worlds zones on the servers. While the insides of the houses are instanced, the wards themselves are not.

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To answer that, yes they should do so, other games do and have done similar things for the greater good, also it is just a game so technically can not really be hurt other than actually having one house you can spend all the time in as doubtfully would be able to fully enjoy 20 of them for any purpose or use whenever it get to it and yes I know, I got more than 11000 hours in FF, also why should someone change servers if someone own 20 hours being grandfathered, why should people leave their friends, would it not be better for these Grandfathered people for an instance themself move to a server that is barely populated so they can endure their thing for house hording better instead of pestering the actual more populated places, it is a clear minority that has more then the current allowed housing as it is, just stick with the times as it is.

The wards themself is an instance, we got 18 instances with 18 sub divisions in them, that allow multiple people in it, alike Eureka (insertwhateevrareahere)

I would go with SE enforcing this with a but and solution as well, multi owners getting moved to a server entirely for that as an option to keep their stuff as be giving the choice to move to another server or give up all property on current one as a better solution, instead of legit players having to feel punished by being forced to move to an empty server just to get a hosue or have a better chance at getting one as it is

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

would it not be better for these Grandfathered people for an instance themself move to a server that is barely populated so they can endure their thing for house hording better instead of pestering the actual more populated places.

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That is literally what some of them have done, and then years later, years of the servers being dead, houses being open and at bottom devalue price, SE suddenly make the servers preferred and encouraged people to move to them. That is exactly what happened to Mateus. People got their houses, and there were plenty of houses still around to be had, and it was perfectly fine for YEARS. Then the flood of transfers, and then the endless flood of salt.

This is still an SE made problem, and the only solution is to make housing an infinite resource rather than a finite one. Until people focus on pushing for that, SE will continue to do nothing while we all fight about everything else, thoroughly distracted.


I'm also going to state again, louder for the people in the back:

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

At the end of the day, there is a slippery slope here, when it comes to saying something needs to be removed from players. Where do you draw the line? When does "this person has too much, take some away" stop? Does it just stop with people with more than 1 personal house? Or would it just move on to "no one should have a personal mansion", or "an FC needs this house more, take away the personal housing". I have seen those sorts of statements before. Once you open the door to things being removed, you can't close it. Also take for example people that have more than one house because they have more than one service account. Should they lose their houses to? They are 100% within the rules, but people will argue that they should still drop to just one. Rather than fighting to take away other people's toys, why not fight harder for SE to provide enough for all of us to play with evenly?

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

That is literally what some of them have done, and then years later, years of the servers being dead, houses being open and at bottom devalue price, SE suddenly make the servers preferred and encouraged people to move to them. That is exactly what happened to Mateus. People got their houses, and there were plenty of houses still around to be had, and it was perfectly fine for YEARS. Then the flood of transfers, and then the endless flood of salt.

This is still an SE made problem, and the only solution is to make housing an infinite resource rather than a finite one. Until people focus on pushing for that, SE will continue to do nothing while we all fight about everything else, thoroughly distracted.

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I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here, it almost appears as if you are saying it's bad thing that SE encouraged people to play on less populated servers because it further highlighted house hoarding issues, which in turn made other house hoarders a target for the community because their actions deprived players of content, and this was bad because it was fine for years until SE shook it up.

If this is what you're saying...uh...wow? There is a very long list of reasons why it's better for both SE and the players if the population of the servers is more evenly distributed, and most of them have little to do with housing. The peace and quiet hoarders had on dead servers was definitely not something on SE's list of priorities, and it should not be. The health and stability of the servers matters far more than a minority of players hoarding houses.

As for "fine". Um...no hoarding houses is never fine whether the server is dead or very much active. Just because the problem was hidden on dead servers doesn't automatically mean it was fine. Mateus was dead. If something becomes a problem when a server's tiny population begins to grow then it means that thing was a problem all along. The servers are intended to be populated. They are never intended to be dead.

I am not denying that the whole housing mess is a problem that began with SE, because it most certainly did. But let's not pretend that there aren't players who are making these problems worse with their antics. House hoarders know housing is in a limited quantity. They know full well that owning several houses means they are possibly denying content to several people and/or several fcs. They know they took advantage of a badly made system. SE messed up with housing, but house hoarders and house flippers made it worse with their greed.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

At the end of the day, there is a slippery slope here, when it comes to saying something needs to be removed from players. Where do you draw the line? When does "this person has too much, take some away" stop? Does it just stop with people with more than 1 personal house?

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Pretty simple. It stops when all players have the exact same limitations on how many houses they can own.

And sorry but this slippery slope argument is weak when avoiding the slope means keeping a minority happy while a far larger amount of people are literally being deprived of content. I really can't fathom how anyone thinks facilitating the greed of a minority is more important than the happiness of a larger amount of players.

Also seriously, why do some of you talk like SE should never do an unspeakable act such as remove things from players because it would only mean bad things. Have you truly forgotten demolition wasn't always in the game? And that its introduction was mostly very well received because it more evenly distributed houses among players? Or do we conveniently forget about this because it draws too many parallels with house hoarders that make them look bad?

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Originally Posted by Giruvegan

I'll say it again since you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension: The number of housing plots owned should be equal for everyone.

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Since we've gotten to the personal insults phase of the internet "discussion", ill keep this brief. I disagree. And allow me to apologize for misinterpreting the reason you made your post. In a thread where people were discussing house hoarding, housing shortages, and potential solutions i incorrectly thought that yours was more then just a post complaining about the current system, and was instead one about solutions. Im sorry for that.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

This is still an SE made problem, and the only solution is to make housing an infinite resource rather than a finite one. Until people focus on pushing for that, SE will continue to do nothing while we all fight about everything else, thoroughly distracted.

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I don't know that infinite housing is the correct solution. Part of what can make things desirable is scarcity.

Better to have a dual system.

First, a fully instanced system (not the current apartment system) that guarantees each player and FC one plot of their choosing. If the farm mentioned at Fan Fest isn't intended to give all players access to the gardening system regardless of house ownership, then gardening could get incorporated into the new instanced housing. Same with FC workshop. Outdoor item limits could be increased greatly for these instanced plots since the game would no longer be trying to also load items from neighboring houses. Being fully instanced, there would be no need for demolition so a player (or even a FC) could take a 6 month break and come back to their plot the same as they had left it. It's not a truly infinite system, it's just one that's flexible as the size of the player base changes.

Second, the ward system converted into a competitive system for those who consider housing their end game and are willing to pay for the privilege of obtaining additional plots. Purchases would be personal only since FCs would have their guaranteed plots with workshop access.

There would still be requirements and limits for the sake of fair competition. The player would have to have a character on a world that meets level and rank requirements to purchase and maintain houses on that world (no transferring one character world to world to buy up houses then leave the houses in the hands of a level 1 character). They could still put a limit on the number of ward houses that could be owned by an account (perhaps one per housing district per world). They could tighten demolition rules and/or add in monthly fees so ward houses are more likely to become available to other players instead of hoarded by a few.

This way housing is obtainable for everyone but still offers features to make it desirable as an end game for those who have a greater than normal interest in it.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

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Firstly, all I was saying is that these hoarders that people go out of their way to demonize mostly were doing no harm. Their intentions were not malicious, and many of them tried their hardest to do what they are passionate about in a way that hurt no one, and that worked well for a long time. No one cared, because it didn't effect anyone. I'm just trying to say, give them a little credit for at least trying to enjoy their hobby without getting in the way of everyone else, rather than spending so much time speaking about them as if they are the one true evil of housing. They aren't. SE is.

I'm not going to sit here and entertain the idea that 'house hoarders' are the root of all evil, or that what they do is somehow so morally corrupt that they need be punished. That just simply isn't the case. Many of them are simply people passionate about housing, for many it is their end game in ff14. They broke no rules, and they played the game fairly. The only solution is for SE to give enough houses for all, not to take any away. Punishing people for playing by the rules is never, under any circumstances, a good thing, which is exactly why they were grandfathered in. SE knows this, and agrees with it, and they made that very clear in their actions by allowing them to keep their houses. Demanding a change now is just, as stated, wasting time and keeping people distracted instead of actually just pushing for a better solution. When we stop turning on each other, and focus on SE, things will likely improve.

Second, the slippery slope argument isn't weak here, when again, I have seen people argue for many of the things I've listed. Do you think they will suddenly stop if the rules are changed an the grandfathered people get their houses removed? Not likely. The houses freed up will vanish in days, and then the problem will continue. Not enough houses. It won't change anything other than giving SE an sizable amount of PR damage.

You seem to think it is a minority group that is in favor of grandfathered people keeping their houses, but I think you're mistaken on that. This change would not be the same as the demolition timer, since that was mostly effecting players that weren't playing to free up a resource not being used. You're saying that people should have things taken away they are actively using, and spending tons of gil, and possibly real life money on from mog station. Apples and Oranges at this point. Also keep in mind that in order to have more than one house, you're paying a higher sub fee for that alt. In a sense, they are paying for that extra house.

At the end of the day, we need to rally together to push for better housing, and not fight so hard to screw each other over out of saltiness or spite. This isn't an issue of the "haves and have nots", it's an issue of SE sitting on their hands knowing there is a problem, but the lot of us not doing anything to make them actually fix it, because we're all too busy infighting.

Edit: This popped up while I was typing I guess. :o

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

snip.

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I both agree and disagree. I honestly think that the scarcity thing is pretty awful, and is a big part of why the housing issues are happening. The fact that it's a finite resource is what makes flippers such a monster, honestly ones I think are a bigger problem than the 'hoarders' people love to hate. Add into that, there are a lot of people that hold houses and do literally nothing with them, simply because they are a trophy, a 'rare' item that they have, and someone else doesn't. I have literally spoken to people with this mindset, luckily they quit and lost their house.

That being said, I do really like the rest of your post. While I think everyone should be able to get a house for every character they level to meet the requirements, I do think the wards should be left as is, as more a competitive vanity thing, either for the lawn decor, or just that ward feel some people actually like. I personally could take it or leave it, and honestly, if it weren't for gardens, I would be perfectly happy not having a yard to worry about; interior decor is more my jam.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

Firstly, all I was saying is that these hoarders that people go out of their way to demonize mostly were doing no harm. Their intentions were not malicious, and many of them tried their hardest to do what they are passionate about in a way that hurt no one, and that worked well for a long time.

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This would only be true if all hoarders were on dead servers to begin with. They are not. They are present in probably every server.

I did not say these people were malicious. Please do not put words into my mouth. I said they were greedy.

People who are malicious do things with the intention of hurting others. I don't think hoarders are malicious because they probably would have several houses even if the amount of plots was unlimited. They take things with the intention of having more stuff. Not with the intention of ruining someone's day. It just so happens that a side effect of having several houses affects other players negatively.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

I'm not going to sit here and entertain the idea that 'house hoarders' are the root of all evil, or that what they do is somehow so morally corrupt that they need be punished.

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Again putting words into my mouth. Please direct me to where I said they need to be punished for being morally corrupt. You'll find I said no such thing. I am saying they have more than their fair share of houses and this needs to change so the system will have more even distribution of housing among players. I am also saying they are not completely innocent because they are aware that they are hoarding a limited resource.

I also did not say hoarders are the root of evil. Maybe try reading my posts properly? I said all these issues root from SE because they made a bad housing system, and that players such as hoarders and house flippers made a bad system worse. I'm not sure how saying SE is the root of these problems means I'm saying hoarders are the root of evil.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

That just simply isn't the case. Many of them are simply people passionate about housing, for many it is their end game in ff14

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So the rest of us who don't own several houses aren't passionate either? Are we less passionate because we have less houses? And what of those whose passions are denied partially because of hoarders? Do their passions not matter?

Also the person I mentioned in my first post is most certainly not a passionate decorator given that their seven plots have been mostly barren for at least a year, and are owned by characters that have nothing above lvl 50. Most of the plots don't even have something as basic as aetherytes. Resetting a housing timer and having loads of houses doesn't automatically qualify someone to be considered a passionate decorator.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

They broke no rules, and they played the game fairly.

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When I was in school we had a uniform. The girls found this unfair because the boys could wear trousers and the girls were stuck with skirts, so in the winter we girls were always colder. In protest the boys helped us by swapping their trousers for our skirts, so we wore trousers and they wore skirts to school. The teachers tried to punish us until they found that the rules did not explicitly state which gender should wear which. This example shows that not breaking the rules isn't the same as following them.

Just because you are able to do something does not mean that the intention is that you are allowed to. Our school clearly didn't want gender swapped uniforms, but they didn't consider that the wording of the rules would allow this to happen.

Considering that there is a very limited amount of plots in the game, it is clear SE didn't intend players to own several. If they had they either wouldn't have introduced housing or they would have introduced a different system in which the hoarding of one player couldn't possibly affect someone else. The fact that SE changed how many plots each player can have is a clear indication of this.

I suspect grandfathering has not yet been removed because SE later plan to introduce a system in which all characters can access the same private home. They have already expressed interest in this feature. They probably don't want characters to suddenly become cut-off from content, and I understand that. While I do want grandfathering removed, I don't want it done without all characters to be able to access the same private home. I am not so merciless to think that hoarders deserve to have characters completely cut off from content.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

The only solution is for SE to give enough houses for all, not to take any away.

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No...that is the only solution you agree with. It is not the only solution. There are several potential solutions to this problem.

However some require a massive amount of time and money, while others require very little. Some require changing the system completely, others only require a tweak. History has shown us SE is fond of giving us tweaks. Removing grandfathering would be a tweak. I would prefer a solution that benefits all equally, but as I said multiple times already in this thread, the likelihood of this is near zero. So I'm asking for an improvement in the form of a tweak, because it's actually possible.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

Punishing people for playing by the rules is never, under any circumstances, a good thing

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Am I to take from this that you are against a demolition system in any form? That you are against a system designed to remove a limited resource from inactive players/characters, so that those who are actually active can enjoy it instead?

Sure you can say that grandfathered players are active. But in the case of the player I mentioned in my first post, I think most people would struggle to argue how characters that have nothing above lvl 50 and are only logged in to reset a timer on a barren house are active characters. If there was no demolition timer these characters would never be logged in.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

Do you think they will suddenly stop if the rules are changed an the grandfathered people get their houses removed? Not likely. The houses freed up will vanish in days

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You saying the freed up houses would vanish in days is you admitting that there are players without houses who would use houses that hoarders have. Well done, you have actually admitted hoarders are blocking players from content. Glad we agree.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

and then the problem will continue. Not enough houses. It won't change anything other than giving SE an sizable amount of PR damage.

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Given that there are a pair of players on Mateus who own an entire ward...removing grandfathering would certainly change things for many players on that ward alone. Never mind all the other houses grandfathered in every other ward in the entire game.

I agree that removing grandfathering won't fix the true heart of the issue, which is the amount of houses. But this is going to be a problem as long as SE hold on to the ward system. So if they're not going to let go of that system, well the best we can do is ask for changes that more evenly distribute houses. Removing grandfathering would help with this.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

At the end of the day, we need to rally together to push for better housing, and not fight so hard to screw each other over out of saltiness or spite.

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I completely agree but as I said in another post...where are your threads asking for this instead? Would it not be a better use of your time to draw attention to what you think are better ideas, instead of bumping a thread you disagree with? The best way to make my thread die is to stop posting here, and present your ideas in your own thread.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

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Firstly: I have not put words in your mouth. I've stated opinions/commentary based on what you, and people on your side of the face on the matter, have said. It's based on the nuance, the felt intention, and how the situation is perceived based on what others have said, not just you. It's not all about you, even if your post is the one I quoted.

Second: Also, since you seem so hung up about the concept of not putting words in people's mouths, maybe practice what you preach? I never said other home owners weren't passionate, I simply said that many of the hoarders were, implying that that passion is part of why they own more than one house. It's a factor, but not something that they alone feel. It is very sad that there are hoarders that do not decorate their houses. Honestly, whether it's one house, or several, I think if a house isn't being used, it should be forfeit, and given to someone that will use it. I see far too many houses that sit untouched, empty and uncared for, for months on end. I feel like that is the bigger problem than people with more than one.

Third: I never said there wasn't a problem with housing. We've always agreed on that, we just disagree on the one viable solution. I personally would rather see enough houses for everyone to have one on each of their characters than see houses taken away from people that earned them. Also, the demo timer is an exception to the rule, as it is meant to target inactive players, people that aren't a factor in the game any longer. That rule makes sense.

Fourth: People have made threads on the matter, and it just turns into the same debate of the "haves and have nots" and the outcry that daddy SE takes away someone else's toys. I get that you want things to be fair, but I don't feel like taking things away from people is. I'm not going to just let that concept slip by and not oppose it. People disagree with the idea, and they are allowed to share that opinion, to show that, despite what some people say, not everyone holds that view point, and SE can see that in these threads, just like all the others.

Also, I am aware of the situation on Mateus, that is the only server I have ever played on since ARR, and I think it would be a tragedy to see that ward dismantled. Considering it's apartment building is pretty highly populated, the likes and kind messages in the message books, I think a good amount of the server agrees. Most of the people that are upset and salty are the people that got a free ride to the server, not any of the people that were on it when it was a quiet less toxic community.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

This would only be true if all hoarders were on dead servers to begin with. They are not. They are present in probably every server.

I did not say these people were malicious. Please do not put words into my mouth. I said they were greedy.

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Oh we need to ask an entire server if it's okay to acquire more than a house? I'm sorry I didn't get the memo. Also sorry for putting in way more effort into housing that you do, not that you care since you haven't acknowledged that people like myself or the couple on Mateus went the extra mile(s) to acquire what we have.

Funny how you get upset with having people twist your words when you do the exact same thing.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

Most of the people that are upset and salty are the people that got a free ride to the server, not any of the people that were on it when it was a quiet less toxic community.

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Woah, the phrasing here really reminds me of someone from a similar themed thread from ages ago.

This player owned several houses and they complained about players using free transfers because it drew attention to his house hoarding. He said that he deserved housing more on that server because he actually paid to transfer. He was constantly putting down players who "got free rides". It was textbook classism.

No clue if you're the same person, but your phrasing in this particular instance is very similar.

And I can't help but point out that while you accuse me of demonising house hoarders, you yourself have painted players who used free transfers as problematic.

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Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB

Oh we need to ask an entire server if it's okay to acquire more than a house? I'm sorry I didn't get the memo.

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If you ask SE right now the answer would be no more than one private home and one fc house.

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Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB

Also sorry for putting in way more effort into housing that you do, not that you care since you haven't acknowledged that people like myself or the couple on Mateus went the extra mile(s) to acquire what we have.

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I put in less effort because I own less houses? Seriously? I'm not on a dead server. I couldn't own an entire ward even if I wanted to. I was never in a position to put in the effort to get the maximum houses possible. Even if I had the gil cap this was impossible on Moogle during the time I have been there. Up until 4.2 the wards were constantly full.

Also lets not pretend that gil selling and buying isn't a thing, and lets not pretend that a lot of this gil wasn't spent on houses. Some of which may be hoarded. Not everyone who has a lot of gil put in a lot of effort.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

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Fair, my wording could have been better, you're right there.

I'll be honest, while I am within the fair limits of home ownership, I am just a bit miffed with the attitude and hostility a lot of transfers brought to this server. These people got a great opportunity to come to a quiet server, to liven it up, and all they brought with them was grief. Rather than making best of things, they instantly set into complaining, bullying, and generally being massive thorns in the sides to the people that originated on the server. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't sort of salty about it. That being said, there are still plenty of people that came from those transfers that are amazing, the rare gems in the sea of salt from both sides at this point.

And again, I'm not directly saying you specifically/directly are demonizing people, I'm saying your stance, and the people that side with it, do. The perception comes across that way when you look at the over all picture, not just your one or two specific statements. I might not agree with you, but you do seem to me mostly reasonable/you do clearly care, you're not just slinging shade at people unprovoked. Not everyone on your side is that way though, and I tend to address the masses not just one. It's like fighting one political side with another, as awful a comparison as that is. One person can be reasonable, but the over all group mindset isn't.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

If you ask SE right now the answer would be no more than one private home and one fc house.

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No, it would be one private and 8 FC houses. You must be new here.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I put in less effort because I own less houses? Seriously? I'm not on a dead server. I couldn't own an entire ward even if I wanted to. I was never in a position to put in the effort to get the maximum houses possible. Even if I had the gil cap this was impossible on Moogle during the time I have been there. Up until 4.2 the wards were constantly full.

Also lets not pretend that gil selling and buying isn't a thing, and lets not pretend that a lot of this gil wasn't spent on houses. Some of which may be hoarded. Not everyone who has a lot of gil put in a lot of effort.

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I'm on gilgamesh and I got 27 houses. 20 of those houses are in the same ward/sub division. Just because you think it's impossible to acquire a ward on anything but a dead server doesn't make it true. Throwing in your silly RMT argument doesn't diminish my statement in any way. Whether its gil or time, players with houses in the two digits clearly have invested more into housing than you do, but you still refuse to believe it.

My solution would be; SE to enforce the 1 personal and 1 FC house per SE account while also unlocking house use for characters on that account, and HEAVILY encourage current owners to relenquish their extra houses while grandfathering them in as current.

I'd love to say SE should just take the houses, but that is wrong. Encouraging players to voluntarilly relinquish their extra houses is the only fair way to do it. Perhaps give them a free subscription month per house, or triple the in-game value... etc.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

Fair, my wording could have been better, you're right there.

I'll be honest, while I am within the fair limits of home ownership, I am just a bit miffed with the attitude and hostility a lot of transfers brought to this server. These people got a great opportunity to come to a quiet server, to liven it up, and all they brought with them was grief.

Rather than making best of things, they instantly set into complaining, bullying, and generally being massive thorns in the sides to the people that originated on the server. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't sort of salty about it. That being said, there are still plenty of people that came from those transfers that are amazing, the rare gems in the sea of salt from both sides at this point.

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I think they're salty because they left servers where wards were constantly hopelessly full and they couldn't hope to afford to buy a house from a house flipper, or they didn't want to risk their account by doing so. Many of these people couldn't access housing for years. They left to find greener pastures, where there would be houses available that they could finally enjoy...and then they find an entire ward is taken up by two people. It can't be a nice feeling to leave one hopeless housing situation, and then be presented with something like this.

However I do understand your position. Your server was small, but it was chill. Now you have a lot of new people throwing around their bitterness and in some cases very harsh words. While they may be justified in feeling crappy, this doesn't change that it creates a negative atmosphere in what was once a pleasant quiet place.

As for the pair on Mateus who bought their houses while the server was dead:

It is a shame to see unused content, and it is a shame to see a server with sparse activity. While I disagree with grandfathering, I will not deny the people who took over that ward achieved something quite remarkable and did breathe life into an otherwise barren place.

I have said before, though I'm unsure if I said so in this thread, that I am more willing to understand hoarders who actually put in the effort to decorate their plots. I completely understand wanting to decorate much more than the current limit can offer you. I own the current maximum of every type of housing on my main, I have fc rooms and apartments on all my alts and I am tenant to two homes that I have put a great deal of time in to. I freaking love decorating. I completely get why people want several houses. I would love to have more houses.

But players like the one I mentioned in my first post make me so angry. Those seven plots are borderline abandoned and the characters that own them aren't being played. This isn't a player who is passionate about housing. Every time I see those plots I can't help but think of other players who could find great joy in decorating them. I said it's a shame to see unused content, and those houses that player owns are exactly that.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

And again, I'm not directly saying you specifically/directly are demonizing people, I'm saying your stance, and the people that side with it, do. The perception comes across that way when you look at the over all picture, not just your one or two specific statements. I might not agree with you, but you do seem to me mostly reasonable/you do clearly care, you're not just slinging shade at people unprovoked. Not everyone on your side is that way though, and I tend to address the masses not just one. It's like fighting one political side with another, as awful a comparison as that is. One person can be reasonable, but the over all group mindset isn't.

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Thank you for saying that I am reasonable despite your disagreement with my stance.

I do know the kind of people you are on about because I have seen them say things like "you're a horrible person for owning so many houses, SE should remove your account" and I strongly disagree with expressing this issue in this manner. Most of the time I would only go as far as to say that hoarders are greedy, because they are aware that they are potentially depriving other people of content. My personal opinion of who they are as a person stops there. It's only players, like the one I mentioned who was very elitist about housing regarding "free rides" who I would say is not a good person. And possibly the person who very recently accused me of having less passion for housing simply because I own less houses...like wow...quantity doesn't automatically equate to passion or effort. I felt as if he means to say my opinion matters less because I have less houses.

I understand why people might think my stance is demonising, because I am not putting house hoarders in a good light. I am saying that they are greedy, and this isn't a positive thing to say. But the unfortunate truth is their ownership of more than the current limit is causing problems for other people, and they know it. This needs to stop. Ideally SE should give us unlimited housing in some form...but as I already said before it's not likely.

I did say in my first post that grandfathering should be removed or to have a system in which hoarding wouldn't negatively affect anyone...but people have been debating with me as if I only said the former and not the latter.

It is not my intention to demonise anyone. My intention is simply to increase how many people have access to housing. That's it. However arguing for this does require stating what I think is an issue, and it's basically impossible to call something an issue without putting any negative labels on it.

I have had my house for two years and I still haven't forgotten the hopelessness of seeing the full wards. I have been leading my fc for over a year and I haven't forgotten the difficulties we had with having a cottage. Personally I'm doing bloody great with housing right now. My fc and I have everything we want and need. But not everyone is in this position and most of the time through no fault of their own. There are ways to increase the amount of players as fortunate as I am without asking SE to do something they probably never will...so here I am in this thread.

And for the person who thinks I put in less effort because I own less houses: I worked for over a year to get one house. I lvled all my crafters and gatherers with the sole intention of fueling my love for housing through crafting furniture and making gil. I camped the aetherytes for freaking months. I watched three houses I ran to be bought right in front of me. I experienced lost opportunities and hopelessness due to the broken system but I never gave up. My perseverance paid off because I ended up with enough gil to buy any class of medium house, and I had the incredible luck of ending up on one of my two dream plots. I literally jumped around the room and danced when I got my house. People who bought houses on sparsely populated servers cannot possibly imagine the joy and relief that I felt when I finally got a house in a server with constantly full wards.

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Originally Posted by Numenor1379

My solution would be; SE to enforce the 1 personal and 1 FC house per SE account while also unlocking house use for characters on that account, and HEAVILY encourage current owners to relenquish their extra houses while grandfathering them in as current.

I'd love to say SE should just take the houses, but that is wrong. Encouraging players to voluntarilly relinquish their extra houses is the only fair way to do it. Perhaps give them a free subscription month per house, or triple the in-game value... etc.

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I agree that some form of compensation would be a good incentive to relinquish plots. After reading this I am now inclined to think that those who have houses revoked if and when grandfathering is removed should be compensated, because the fact is something they own, and are using in some manner however small, is being taken away from them. It goes without saying that they should get a full refund of the cost of the plot and the house (they are bought separately). But there should be additional compensation. Perhaps some crysta for the mog station, or as you say some free game time. Maybe even both.

This is quite different to demolition because grandfathered players are actually using their houses to some degree, so the blow would really sting if their houses are taken away. The compensation should reflect this.

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Originally Posted by AriesMouse

Second, the slippery slope argument isn't weak here, when again, I have seen people argue for many of the things I've listed. Do you think they will suddenly stop if the rules are changed an the grandfathered people get their houses removed? Not likely. The houses freed up will vanish in days, and then the problem will continue. Not enough houses. It won't change anything other than giving SE an sizable amount of PR damage.

You seem to think it is a minority group that is in favor of grandfathered people keeping their houses, but I think you're mistaken on that. This change would not be the same as the demolition timer, since that was mostly effecting players that weren't playing to free up a resource not being used. You're saying that people should have things taken away they are actively using, and spending tons of gil, and possibly real life money on from mog station. Apples and Oranges at this point. Also keep in mind that in order to have more than one house, you're paying a higher sub fee for that alt. In a sense, they are paying for that extra house.

At the end of the day, we need to rally together to push for better housing, and not fight so hard to screw each other over out of saltiness or spite. This isn't an issue of the "haves and have nots", it's an issue of SE sitting on their hands knowing there is a problem, but the lot of us not doing anything to make them actually fix it, because we're all too busy infighting.

.

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It is worse PR damage that some people get special treatment with grandfathering, and the 13million others do not, it is much more of a disaster seen from my point of view, hey I am not missing a house myself either, I just think... if you get to keep more than one house I would like to as well without having to buy an additional subscription and I want it working with the current system because I easely can afford or buy out people with large houses or pay for their relocation to elsewhere...

My point is... either it goes for ALL or no one, including grandfathered people, or move all grandfathered people to a secluded server just for them with no one else to join or something.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

It is worse PR damage that some people get special treatment with grandfathering, and the 13million others do not, it is much more of a disaster seen from my point of view, hey I am not missing a house myself either, I just think... if you get to keep more than one house I would like to as well without having to buy an additional subscription and I want it working with the current system because I easely can afford or buy out people with large houses or pay for their relocation to elsewhere...

My point is... either it goes for ALL or no one, including grandfathered people, or move all grandfathered people to a secluded server just for them with no one else to join or something.

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Why do you people even care about grandfathered houses? Don't you understand that the actual amount of grandfathered houses is pretty much meaningless and it keeps going down every week? It makes no sense to complain about a small minority of players owning more than 1 personal house when you can have 8 FC houses, with a lvl 1 character as the leader and unique member, since the restriction does not apply to FCs anymore.

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Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB

Why do you people even care about grandfathered houses?

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I am impressed that you have managed to avoid to multiple instances in which this has been explained.

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Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB

Don't you understand that the actual amount of grandfathered houses is pretty much meaningless and it keeps going down every week?

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Oh yes I'm sure a ward full of grandfathered plots means nothing to people who have access to none. Fcs stuck in a cottage that need a bigger house don't care about medium and large plots that are mostly abandoned by grandfathered players.

/s in case that wasn't obvious

Also do you have a source for "it keeps going down every week"? Are you somehow privy to information about activity of every single house in the game? Do you have access to SE's internal statistics for housing?

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Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB

It makes no sense to complain about a small minority of players owning more than 1 personal house when you can have 8 FC houses, with a lvl 1 character as the leader and unique member, since the restriction does not apply to FCs anymore.

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From what I understand being able to purchase eight fc houses on the same server after 4.2 requires using a loophole. If you are the fc master of a house with a fc you cannot buy another fc plot...unless you temporarily give fc leadership to a character on another account, buy the second fc house, and get fc master back again with the first character and...voila you own more than one fc house.

If I'm wrong then please tell me how this is done, because I distinctly remember reading that you cannot buy another personal or fc house if you already own one of each. As far as I recall you can't even buy a fc house if you're even in an fc with a house on any character in that server.

And I remember this because I was unsure about the wording of SE's statement about the 4.2 changes, and I asked in these forums if having my alts in my fc would somehow be affected.

If this is how it's done then sorry no, that's not an intentional feature SE gave us. That's a loophole. If it was intentional then SE wouldn't have bothered to prevent fc masters from being able to buy more fc houses on the same server.

EDIT: I found official information regarding how many plots players can own after 4.2. One section states "Players may only own one private and one free company estate per World on any given service account." You can read the whole thing here.

So yea, it is a loophole as SE have explicitly stated that they do not intend for players to be able to purchase more than one fc house on the same server from 4.2 onwards.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I am impressed that you have managed to avoid to multiple instances in which this has been explained.



Oh yes I'm sure a ward full of grandfathered plots means nothing to people who have access to none. Fcs stuck in a cottage that need a bigger house don't care about medium and large plots that are mostly abandoned by grandfathered players.

/s in case that wasn't obvious

Also do you have a source for "it keeps going down every week"? Are you somehow privy to information about activity of every single house in the game? Do you have access to SE's internal statistics for housing?



From what I understand being able to purchase eight fc houses on the same server after 4.2 requires using a loophole. If you are the fc master of a house with a fc you cannot buy another fc plot...unless you temporarily give fc leadership to a character on another account, buy the second fc house, and get fc master back again with the first character and...voila you own more than one fc house.

If I'm wrong then please tell me how this is done, because I distinctly remember reading that you cannot buy another personal or fc house if you already own one of each. As far as I recall you can't even buy a fc house if you're even in an fc with a house on any character in that server.

And I remember this because I was unsure about the wording of SE's statement about the 4.2 changes, and I asked in these forums if having my alts in my fc would somehow be affected.

If this is how it's done then sorry no, that's not an intentional feature SE gave us. That's a loophole. If it was intentional then SE wouldn't have bothered to prevent fc masters from being able to buy more fc houses on the same server.

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I'm impressed that you post in here without knowledge on the subject. If you would understand that people do stop playing this game and people do trade houses, you would logically figure out that the amount of grandfathered plots keeps dropping as it only affect personal houses. FC houses were grandfathered for two weeks and have since been the de facto option for players that are into reselling multiple plots. There are no loop holes involved, FC houses require 4 players, a rank 6 FC and x amount of gil.

My question still stands, why do you people care about a small amount of grandfathered houses when you can still have 8 FC houses on the same server with a single account without any circumvention of the ingame rules?

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Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB

I'm impressed that you post in here without knowledge on the subject. If you would understand that people do stop playing this game and people do trade houses, you would logically figure out that the amount of grandfathered plots keeps dropping as it only affect personal houses.

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Only affects personal houses? I have personally seen grandfathered plots that are fc houses, care to explain this?

As for people who stop playing the game...wow, what weak reasoning "hey it's okay for me to own 27 houses because some house hoarders stop playing the game". That's akin to saying "hey it's okay for me to own loads of toys even if it means some children will have none because children grow up and then are adults".

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Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB

FC houses were grandfathered for two weeks and have since been the de facto option for players that are into reselling multiple plots. There are no loop holes involved, FC houses require 4 players, a rank 6 FC and x amount of gil.

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If there are no loopholes then please explain this:

Is this information out of date? Then if so please provide official information from SE stating this. If you do then I will bow down on this particular argument on who can buy what and how.

https://i.imgur.com/yoqxFyA.png

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Originally Posted by Penthea

As for people who stop playing the game...wow, what weak reasoning "hey it's okay for me to own 27 houses because some house hoarders stop playing the game". That's akin to saying "hey it's okay for me to own loads of toys even if it means some children will have none because children grow up and then are adults".

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What are you even going on about, you completely missed what I was saying and ended up extrapolating. Once again, you're hard pressed to put words into other people's mouth.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Only affects personal houses? I have personally seen grandfathered plots that are fc houses, care to explain this?
If there are no loopholes then please explain this:

Is this information out of date? Then if so please provide official information from SE stating this. If you do then I will bow down on this particular argument on who can buy what.

https://i.imgur.com/yoqxFyA.png

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Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB

You are clueless. Here are the current requirements for a free company

https://i.imgur.com/KcW6YOr.png


What you are all overlooking is the temporary changes to purchasing land. Some are still ongoing, some are not. How do I know? I wasn't able to purchase more FC houses on the same account when the new wards were only available to FCs or personal houses relocation.


https://i.imgur.com/jIbAiav.png

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Originally Posted by Brynne

It's true that the limitation on FC houses per account was quietly lifted (probably when personal housing could be bought again), and I actually agree that this is a good thing. SE needs to make up their mind about how to deal with alts, and the housing situation has kind of forced their hand but they're still waffling over it, probably because it goes against their original stance.

Alts were supposed to be completely independent characters in their own right, separate from the "main" and fully actualized. That was the excuse for not being able to mail them from your main (and something something rmt as if they don't just use the FC chest but anyway). Not allowing them to own their own houses is a good move considering the housing shortage, but it breaks from that original premise. You CANNOT be a full characterwhen you're restricted by the other characters on the account. For this reason, the FC restriction was good only as a temporary measure alongside the temporary freeze on personal housing purchases, to allow homeless FCs the chance to snag houses without worrying about someone buying a bunch of them up in single-person FCs with their alts. However, there are a number of players with multiple active characters that they have in separate FCs and IN GENERAL if one of those FCs happens to not have a house, they shouldn't have to kick someone just because their alt is in a different FC with a house. It was a special situation, and it's over now. The playerbase as a whole shouldn't have to be that restricted on a regular basis, especially on smaller servers (like mine, where there are still lots of empty houses sitting at the minimum price).

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Originally Posted by illgot

Correct, it was a temporary change while they were altering the current housing rules. There is nothing stopping a player from owning 1 FC house and 1 personal house per character right now. Until SE changes the rules people should be focused on trying to alter the rules, not witch hunt players because they had the resources and patience to play the game with in the rules.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Thats not how the temp rule worked. You could have multiple characters on the same world in multiple FC's, but if one of more of those FC's owned a home no other character on that world could purchase a FC home.
The temp rules!! No where does it say you could not have every character on a single world in a FC.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by MaybeOliverB

What are you even going on about, you completely missed what I was saying and ended up extrapolating. Once again, you're hard pressed to put words into other people's mouth.

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No I didn't. It appears that I had outdated info, and that SE have not publicly stated that the limitation on the purchasing of fc houses was lifted, if the information you have provided is to be believed. I bow down on this particular argument. You are correct. You can buy multiple fc plots without loopholes. I am more informed about this now. Thank you.

However you're still very wrong that grandfathered players are not causing issues, and this claim that the houses they own are dropping every week is something you pulled out of the air. I asked how you knew this and you provided no source whatsoever despite being someone who clearly is on a mission to prove me wrong. I am still waiting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I am more informed about this now. Thank you.

However you're still very wrong that grandfathered players are not causing issues, and this claim that the houses they own are dropping every week is something you pulled out of the air. I asked how you knew this and you provided no source whatsoever despite being someone who clearly is on a mission to prove me wrong. I am still waiting.

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More informed? You have still have no firsthand knowledge about the topic.

I'm absolutely not wrong in saying that grandfathered players are not even an issue. Before dwelling into this, let's get this out of the way. Since 4.2, owning more than 1 personal house per server/account has no purpose other than bragging rights.


You can be a lvl 1 player with 2 quests completed under your belt and buy an FC house. Unlike personal house owners, FC home owners do not have to meet any minimum level requirement and the second lieutenant GC requirement in order to own or even purchase a plot. With how easy you can level up an FC, there was no reason to level up a character to 50 just to purchase additional plots.

FC houses have always had an edge over personal houses. Both offer the same amount of garden beds, if you don't take flower pots that can be placed inside personal rooms into consideration, but the list stops here. FC houses can be outfitted with a workshop, which is a plus value regardless of if you are reselling the house or if you are a crafter. FC houses can also charge FC buffs, but the main advantage comes from the fact that you can transfer ownership of the house to any player without having them relocate or purchase the plot again.

So here's a breakdown of the changes with patch 4.2 regarding personal and fc houses.

Pre 4.2

Personal house:
Up to 8 per server. :cool:
Cannot be transfered, buyer has to purchase the plot and pay x amount of gil to the previous owner. :mad:
Gardening ($). :cool:

FC house:
Up to 8 per server. :cool:
Easily transferable and can be relinquished if the buyer desires to use the plot for their personal house. :cool:
Workshop ($). :cool:
Airships/Submarines ($). :cool:
House can be used to charge FC buffs ($). :cool:
Gardening ($). :cool:


Post 4.2

Personal house:
Limited to 1 per account. Grandfathered players cannot purchase more personal houses after getting rid of their extra one(s). :mad:
Cannot be transfered, buyer has to purchase the plot and pay x amount of gil to the previous owner. :mad:
Cannot be purchased on the spot. Players that would like to acquire their first house better click on that placard a lot. :mad:
Gardening ($). :cool:

FC house:
Up to 8 per server. :cool:
Easily transferable and can be relinquished if the buyer desires to use the plot for their personal house through relocation. :cool:
Workshop ($). :cool:
Airships/Submarines ($). :cool:
House can be used to charge FC buffs ($). :cool:
Gardening ($). :cool:

So now that we know that FC houses have a higher value on the house trading market, suffer no restriction other than how many characters you have on a specific server and that the requirements to obtain one are much more lower than the personal houses, why would anyone keep extra personal houses other than for bragging rights? As mentioned above, grandfathered characters cannot purchase more personal houses than what they already have, they can only lose them. Whether it's because they sold it to another player/FC or through auto-demolition, the amount of grandfathered personal plots logically goes down every week due to players leaving the game and the lack of incentive to keep extra personal houses. A grandfathered character that has traded his/her house away can always replace his character's personal by an FC house afterwards, but they don't fall in the grandfathered category anymore.

I know my server's housing situation very well. Doubt me? Check my signature. As you may or may not know, Gilgamesh used to be the go-to server for the raiding scene. Guess who tends to level more than 1 character to 50? Raiders. Despite having tons of players on this server with more than 1 character at 50 for raid purposes, few actually own more than 1 house. I know way more players with multi-home FCs.

You can't say that grandfathered players are the issue when you can make 50 fresh characters on a server and end up with 50 FC houses in an evening. That's just plain ignorance.

No! No taking houses away from whomever the current owner is. If you own 27 houses right now, fine... you're grandfathered. 100% good, no complaints, no forfeiting.

But... if a system was introduced to entice those players to sell their extra houses, excellent. No coersion, no taking, nothing changing except the player deciding to give up their extra plots.

My houses are not grandfathered.