#NerfBRD

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You know very well that arbitarily nerfing BRD’s personal damage isn’t going to suddenly have everyone flocking to MCH, Dual. Especially in its current iteration. Honestly, this comment isn’t constructive; it’s whiny.

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And yet, raising Machinist to any level where it can compete with current BRD will only make casters go extinct. Call it whiny if you want, I'm just summing up what the arguments have been so far.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Currently, there are 43,744 Bards. Thus, you're insinuating a 5% nerf to Bard would make Machinist the second most popular range job in the game. That just isn't going to happen. Even when it was decidedly better than Bard in Heavensward, people simply weren't as keen to play it. Machinist just isn't popular. It never has been even when it was meta.

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It is technically already the second most popular ranged job in the game.

My argument is that Bard doing the same if not greater damage than Machinist violates the notion that greater support capability means less personal performance potential.

This argument applies equally to Mages, to Melee DPS, to Tanks, and to Healers.

Why is Bard suddenly special in this regard?

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

And yet, raising Machinist to any level where it can compete with current BRD will only make casters go extinct. Call it whiny if you want, I'm just summing up what the arguments have been so far.

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We spoke about this before. The solution there is Refresh vs. Mana Shift. You can nerf BRD all you want, it won't make MCH competitive with it unless we've switched them. In fact, here's a hypothetical I could actually see happening.

- Piercing removed
- Heavy Thrust increased from 10% to 15%
- Hotshot increased from 8% to 12%
- Add 10-20 potency somewhere on Bard

In this scenario, Bard is the least compensated for piercing's removal. Does this suddenly make Machinist more popular? I sincerely doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

It is technically already the second most popular ranged job in the game.

My argument is that Bard doing the same if not greater damage than Machinist violates the notion that greater support capability means less personal performance potential.

This argument applies equally to Mages, to Melee DPS, to Tanks, and to Healers.

Why is Bard suddenly special in this regard?

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Now you're being obtuse. Your insinuation puts Machinist as the second popular range job, period—beating Summoner in popularity. No one's arguing Machinist shouldn't do more damage. The argument is nerfing Bard won't abruptly make it more popularity, which is what you said. And certainly not to a 1:2.5 ratio. Because of a 5% nerf to Bard, Machinist suddenly has three times the population? That's absurd.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

We spoke about this before. The solution there is Refresh vs. Mana Shift. You can nerf BRD all you want, it won't make MCH competitive with it unless we've switched them. In fact, here's a hypothetical I could actually see happening.

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We also spoke about an idea where it ends up all five ranged jobs are fighting for both slots, as opposed to Bard having one slot, and the other four fighting for the leftovers. We can, and should nerf Bard, not just because of Machinist, but because something should be a red flag when Bard is in every conceivable meta assortment. Grimoire-M's suggestion of getting rid of Mana Shift and Refresh and replacing it with a magic variant of Goad, I think, would work best in that circumstance.

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In this scenario, Bard is the least compensated for piercing's removal. Does this suddenly make Machinist more popular? I sincerely doubt it.

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If Bard weren't the bread and butter of every static, Machinist would definitely be more popular. As is, Machinists who aren't being asked to switch to Bard, because Bard is better than Machinist in every way that matters, are already switching to Bard because their favorite job is sandwiched between the Casters, whom it can't be too much better than or it would enforce MCH/BRD again and BRD, whom is one of the best jobs in the game.

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It's also worth noting that BRD isn't just more popular than MCH--it's the most popular job of the tier by a large factor (in the last two weeks):
BRD is 21%
DRG is 19%
NIN is 14.7%
SMN is 11.4%
RDM is 9.4%
SAM is 9.2%
BLM is 5.8%
MNK is 5.5%
MCH is 3.5%

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

We also spoke about an idea where it ends up all five ranged jobs are fighting for both slots, as opposed to Bard having one slot, and the other four fighting for the leftovers. We can, and should nerf Bard, not just because of Machinist, but because something should be a red flag when Bard is in every conceivable meta assortment. Grimoire-M's suggestion of getting rid of Mana Shift and Refresh and replacing it with a magic variant of Goad, I think, would work best in that circumstance.

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Yes. And you accomplish that by addressing why Physical Range are always valued over Casters. Nerfing BRD is irrelevant in that discussion. I'm not even against the idea of a small DPS loss hence my speculation BRD won't get the full 5% back when Piercing, hopefully, dies. But it isn't going to change the raid scene due to MCH's current gameplay being almost universally hated. You balance all five jobs by looking at what separates them. And that is currently how much better Refresh is than Mana Shift. If that isn't addressed, nerfing BRD by 1-2-5% won't make a lick of difference.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

If Bard weren't the bread and butter of every static, Machinist would definitely be more popular. As is, Machinists who aren't being asked to switch to Bard, because Bard is better than Machinist in every way that matters, are already switching to Bard because their favorite job is sandwiched between the Casters, whom it can't be too much better than or it would enforce MCH/BRD again and BRD, whom is one of the best jobs in the game.

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Then why did BRD command a similar lead in Deltascape? Or back in Heavensward, where MCH was flat out considered better at various points? MCH has been dead last since its release. I also never said MCH wouldn't be more popular, I said it's popularity would abruptly soar—especially not to the estimations put forth. Even in its heyday, MCH just hasn't been liked. The only way this gets rectified is if they overhaul the job come 5.0. Which should happen. People are demanding it now though. And while it would be nice, we know that won't be in the case.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Yes. And you accomplish that by addressing why Physical Range are always valued over Casters. Nerfing BRD is irrelevant in that discussion.

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Agreed. And as I already said, Grimoire-M's idea seems to fit that the best: ranged will have Goad and Mana Goad, Melee will have Goad, and Casters will have Mana Goad; this would fix a lot on its own.

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I'm not even against the idea of a small DPS loss hence my speculation BRD won't get the full 5% back when Piercing, hopefully, dies.

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Glad we agree.

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But it isn't going to change the raid scene due to MCH's current gameplay being almost universally hated.

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It will at least change the climate to not be 1/5DPS are Bards.

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You balance all five jobs by looking at what separates them. And that is currently how much better Refresh is than Mana Shift. If that isn't addressed, nerfing BRD by 1-2-5% won't make a lick of difference.

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How much better refresh is than mana shift, in addition to the ease one can weave through mechanics when uptime isn't even close to an issue where casters and melee have to measure where and when they stand to get the best uptime on the boss, absolutely bonkers burst potential, passive 2% crit buff on the whole party and increased DHit from B. Voice and increased flat damage from Foe's, a 30 second long mitigation tool that requires no target.

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Then why did BRD command a similar lead in Deltascape?

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Because Bard has been that good through the whole expansion. Bard's commanded a lead over every other DPS this whole expansion, I'd wager. Or are you insinuating that Bard wasn't the bread and butter back in Deltascape?

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Or back in Heavensward, where MCH was flat out considered better at various points? MCH has been dead last since its release. I also never said MCH wouldn't be more popular, I said it's popularity would abruptly soar—especially not to the estimations put forth.

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Its popularity wouldn't soar, you're right. But Bard right now is so good that 1 in every 5 dps uploads, of every DPS job, is a Bard. Maybe Bard doesn't need to be so good and powerful that it is the static-maker.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Now you're being obtuse. Your insinuation puts Machinist as the second popular range job, period—beating Summoner in popularity. No one's arguing Machinist shouldn't do more damage. The argument is nerfing Bard won't abruptly make it more popularity, which is what you said. And certainly not to a 1:2.5 ratio. Because of a 5% nerf to Bard, Machinist suddenly has three times the population? That's absurd.

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That's a Caster :P

And it's unfair to paint points I make to two separate people as directed towards you alone.

So, we'll consolidate it.

One assertion is that Bard having 5% less damage flat out makes it deadweight. I pointed out that according to the data we have, at the time when Bard -was- 5% behind Machinist, the ratio was much more favorable. People still played Bard more, but there were also more Machinists.

The other is that damage alone doesn't make the Machinist more popular. Which is opinion. We can only extrapolate from data, -however- when Machinist was ahead of Bard on damage, more people played Machinist.

These two statements are not in opposition with each other.

When a job is considered harder to play, but performs less than another job, then it's hard to justify playing it when performance matters. When a job brings less tools than another, but doesn't deal an appreciable amount of damage more, then it's hard to justify playing it when performance matters. It comes down to whether or not jobs are equitable to one another, especially when they fall into the same role.

At this time, that equity does not exist between Bard and Machinist.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

It will at least change the climate to not be 1/5DPS are Bards.

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Except... it wouldn't be. BRD's popularity is not only in how good the game is, but how it's arguably the best designed job in the expansion. People like it's gameplay, not simply it's damage. Nerfing BRD won't change the landscape right now whatsoever because people dislike MCH's gameplay by and large. Will you see more MCHs? Sure, but the numbers aren't going to swing from 43k BRD to half that. Nor will MCH suddenly balloon upwards. At best, you'll see a handful more MCHs. And even that is being generous given how universally disliked the Stormblood iteration has been. A nerfed BRD will still be overwhelmingly preferred for its gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Because Bard has been that good through the whole expansion. Bard's commanded a lead over every other DPS this whole expansion, I'd wager. Or are you insinuating that Bard wasn't the bread and butter back in Deltascape?

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My point was MCH was meta at varying points this expansion; both throughout Deltascape and into early Sigma. Dismantle was also considered better for UcoB. Despite its highly competitive status, people still wouldn't play it. MCH spent all of Deltascape dead last in terms of popularity. Hence why nerfing BRD, which I don't inherently disagree with, won't change the landscape.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

And it's unfair to paint points I make to two separate people as directed towards you alone.

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You were the one who made the silly assertion nerfing BRD would bolster MCH from 1:8 ratio to 1:2.5. Hence my response, which I covered above, thus I don't need to reiterate it again.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

One assertion is that Bard having 5% less damage flat out makes it deadweight. I pointed out that according to the data we have, at the time when Bard -was- 5% behind Machinist, the ratio was much more favorable. People still played Bard more, but there were also more Machinists.

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I said dead weight without a DRG. Don't omit part of my statement when making your argument. Furthermore, your argument is self defeating. BRD was still overwhelmingly popular in Deltascape—significantly more so than MCH. The argument between us has never been MCH shouldn't do more damage, but merely you're assertion nerfing BRD would abruptly make MCH go from sub 8k to well beyond double when it's been the least popular job since Heavensward.

I totally agree, either they nerf bard or buff mch hypercharge and support skills to balance and bring back the real meta!.

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Originally Posted by Arrin

I'm not sure I quite understand. Is the argument that BRD should be nerfed because there's actually something wrong with BRD... or is it just so that MCH fans can feel more validated in playing a job that's not fun?

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Currently mch is being left out and overshadowed in meta by casters/brd, because it has less to contribute and people would rather have overpowered casters with raise than a gun wielding clunky class.
Mch deserves better.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Except... it wouldn't be. BRD's popularity is not only in how good the game is, but how it's arguably the best designed job in the expansion. People like it's gameplay, not simply it's damage.

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People liking its gameplay wouldn't mean much if it wasn't also one of the best jobs to have in your team. People liked RDM, but once it became more cemented that the job was really only good for progression, it fell off. People liked SAM and BLM, but again, as more and more people realized that they didn't bring the adequate damage to compensate for the fact they're not team players.

Conversely, lots of people dislike SMN. They like the idea of being a SMN well enough, but they hate how SMN has been implemented in this game, and there are always criticisms of its gameplay whether that be its awkward three-segment-rotation, bahamut not being responsive enough, and egis being underwhelming. In my experience, it's about as clunky as MCH. Yet, because it brings the damage, it's the most played caster, even after nerfs blowing RDM and BLM out of the water and is the fourth most played job this tier, right behind the Meta Three.

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Nerfing BRD won't change the landscape right now whatsoever because people dislike MCH's gameplay by and large. Will you see more MCHs? Sure, but the numbers aren't going to swing from 43k BRD to half that. Nor will MCH suddenly balloon upwards. At best, you'll see a handful more MCHs. And even that is being generous given how universally disliked the Stormblood iteration has been. A nerfed BRD will still be overwhelmingly preferred for its gameplay.

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At best you'll see a handful more MCHs...and a lot of people who prefer playing MCH will be able to justify to themselves their desire to play their favorite job to their party, instead of quietly swapping to BRD themselves because of how much better it is for its own slot.

This is like saying SMN shouldn't have seen a slight nerf at the end of Sigma because it didn't immediately make BLM or RDM the most preferred jobs. No, BLM and RDM aren't suddenly as or more popular than SMN, but it's a damn sight easier to justify being a RDM now because I'm not dragging rDPS down by a huge margin when playing my preferred job. Even then, it was only a slight nerf to SMN, and a buff to both RDM and BLM--something the likes of which could be done for MCH in relation to BRD.

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My point was MCH was meta at varying points this expansion; both throughout Deltascape and into early Sigma. Dismantle was also considered better for UcoB. Despite its highly competitive status, people still wouldn't play it. MCH spent all of Deltascape dead last in terms of popularity. Hence why nerfing BRD, which I don't inherently disagree with, won't change the landscape.

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It was meta because the casters were garbage through most of this expansion. What flavor of garbage did you want, the turret that needs the whole party to adjust to it and doesn't reward the party for strategies that do so (BLM)? A slightly less turret that did less damage than even BRD at certain places (RDM)? Or a jumbled mess of mechanics and spells that the devs kind of barfed up and hoped was good (SMN)? ...or perhaps, Machinist, who not only didn't need to be adjusted to, but was just as mobile as bard, but enhanced bard's burst potential and increased healer damage potential even more?

Notice into Sigmascape, Summoner was what overtook Machinist. Summoner was fixed up a bit and given a gigantic damage upgrade, getting close to being the highest damaging job in the game. As well, whenever Machinist buffs are brought up, it's casters who need to be considered because they're the ones MCH would compete against--not BRD. Which brings us back to...Machinist cannot be buffed, but its competitor apparently cannot be nerfed.

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Originally Posted by giwaman

Currently mch is being left out and overshadowed in meta by casters/brd, because it has less to contribute and people would rather have overpowered casters with raise than a gun wielding clunky class.
Mch deserves better.

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I wouldn't say it's the casters that are OP in this equation. When MCH has to fight for a completely separate spot in the team than BRD, despite the intent being that it competed with BRD, I don't think it's the jobs that traditionally fight for the fourth spot that are to blame.

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Originally Posted by Grimoire-M

Personally, I believe both need to happen. There's nothing stopping both from being a valid option. And (hopefully) we all agree that leaving it alone isn't the best idea either.

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I don't think so because we all know how good SE is with nerfing things without destroying a class completly.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Have you even played Machinist to any extent?

The job actually plays pretty well when it's as intended (RE: low latency). About the only downside is that wildfire interludes don't have much going on, but given the frenzy of the Wildfire Overheat segment, the calmer segment isn't unwelcome.

The "Clunk" generally refers to two scenarios.

A) Latency
B) Player error

There are more minute ones that are experienced by players better than you and me.

Bard brings more. The general consensus is those that bring more do less themselves. Given the current state of the game, the only reasonable requisition is that Bard do less themselves.

A gameplay adjustment to Machinist is unlikely, and even then doesn't address the issue. A buff is out of the question because then you're just displacing Casters yet again, and it's a band aid fix at best. A full on face lifting rework is out of the question until the expansion, which will likely be -7 months- from now, unless they've been working on it since Sigma, which I somehow doubt.

I suppose you could do nothing, but that's not really the context of the thread, and that's hardly any fun to discuss.

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So then tell me why there are not more MCH's if there is nothing wrong with it. Oh right probably because most people don't have a low ping or the gameplay of a MCH feels just bad for them. Don't try to tell me its because people don't want them because people will always want you in your static if you are good on your class, no matter what you play.
And no i don't play MCH because i dislike the whole concept.

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Originally Posted by Arrin

I'm not sure I quite understand. Is the argument that BRD should be nerfed because there's actually something wrong with BRD...?

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Yes, BRD should be nerfed because they scale unfairly in a balance breaking manner by stacking critical hit. It's not that their skillset should be nerfed but their gear scaling should. Their procs need to be independent of any straight attribute factors, similar to Straighter Shot's flat 20% chance, because otherwise their damage increases much faster than anyone else. You get a problem where BRD is either underpowered at the start of an expansion and balanced at the end, or balanced at the start and overpowered at the end. The latter is what we have currently.

This is not a MCH specific issue but it further makes MCH's QoL issues worse because MCH is the direct role competitor to BRD but they're not even close to competitive in dps. If MCH had much higher relative dps, you could at least justify playing it because it was effective, but currently it's not only the worse dps, but also suffering from QoL issues that prevent most people from playing it effectively.

Well, given the looks of this thread it doesn’t seem like the developers will ever dare touch Bard at all in future, if not only from the sheer outcry it would cause

Maybe they’ll remember Machinist is a thing next expansion. Though, I wouldn’t be surprised if it became so amazing next expansion that it made casters redundant lol.

I wonder if next time this year, this exact thread will return but it’ll be Bards asking for Machinists to get nerfed. Then the follow expansion has, in a shocking twist, Red Mage become the ultimate guaranteed raid job.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Uh, no you didn't. BRD has far better support and is easier to approach. Furthermore, MCH is still competitive despite its many flaws. The main issue is people dislike playing it.

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Come on, let's not pretend here. It's true that MCH's design is flawed, but the only reason why BRD is so popular is because it's the better option from a rdps perspective, plain and simple. Make MCH a superior option and suddenly way more people will play MCH. At the very least, ALL speedrunners will choose MCH over BRD. Ignoring for a second the fact that MCH has a few mechanical problems, efficiency is a very important factor for a good portion of the players that upload their logs on fflogs. Give them a high risk-high reward job, and they will play it. The problem is that right now MCH is a high risk-low reward job. Unless you want to convince me that in the hypothetical scenario where MCH deals 1k more dps than BRD, nothing would change.

Again, I'm not denying that design flaws are part of the reason why MCH is so unpopular, but completely ignoring the fact that BRD is OP right now and that that's a big factor in MCH unpopularity is just being intellectually dishonest.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I said dead weight without a DRG. Don't omit part of my statement when making your argument. Furthermore, your argument is self defeating. BRD was still overwhelmingly popular in Deltascape—significantly more so than MCH. The argument between us has never been MCH shouldn't do more damage, but merely you're assertion nerfing BRD would abruptly make MCH go from sub 8k to well beyond double when it's been the least popular job since Heavensward.

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Not every Bard and Machinist has a dragoon. Bard and Machinist easily bring their fair share without Dragoon.

As I stated, the amount of tools they bring only makes sense in the scenario where Dragoon isn't there. Claiming that somehow Bard is deadweight without Dragoon is false. The -dragoon- is dead weight without the Bard, because Ninja, Monk, and Samurai are all better when no Ranged role is in the party.

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Originally Posted by Ilan

So then tell me why there are not more MCH's if there is nothing wrong with it. Oh right probably because most people don't have a low ping or the gameplay of a MCH feels just bad for them. Don't try to tell me its because people don't want them because people will always want you in your static if you are good on your class, no matter what you play.
And no i don't play MCH because i dislike the whole concept.

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1. There are not more Machinists because their direct analogue is unambiguously better in almost every case. Just looking at data alone, Machinist maintains a slight lead, like less than 1%, that steadily falls as player skill rises, until it's eclipsed in the 95-100th range.
2. Combine this with the lower latency thresh hold (Bard feels just as bad when you slap on another 150 ping) and Rapid Fire, and it's more difficult to effectively achieve the same DPS - But with less party support.
3. People are more likely to take a machinist over a Black Mage or Samurai even if a Bard is already in their party.
4. Developers obviously test stuff in house on a private server with, guess what, low / nonexistent ping.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Make MCH a superior option and suddenly way more people will play MCH. At the very least, ALL speedrunners will choose MCH over BRD.

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Or... You just make MCH/BRD meta again

I don't think anyone would disagree that if a job is clunky, but effective, it will be played more than a job that is both clunky and ineffective. But I think MCH has suffered a bit of what DRK has had to go through this whole expansion, started out with ? marks which progressively became bigger and more apparent as content scaled up. The damage was done early on, and even now after significant buffs to DRK their numbers are still pretty low compared to PLD/WAR, so MCH is not likely to recover at this point regardless of buffs/nerfs.

SE could patch up some QoL features in the mean time. I don't think they'd rework BRD as Kitfox mentions, so the goal should be to make incremental adjustments that would put MCH in a better position moving into 5.0. Give MCH mains something to look forward to, a reason to level it up to 80 instead of switching to BRD because it's a safer bet.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

Or... You just make MCH/BRD meta again.

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Which is why this is a #NerfBard thread, not a #BuffMach thread.

We presumably all understand the ramifications of buffing Machinist to an equitable position compared to Bard.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Which is why this is a #NerfBard thread, not a #BuffMach thread.

We presumably all understand the ramifications of buffing Machinist to an equitable position compared to Bard.

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I hope nothing in the game going forward is buffed to the ridiculous level BRD is now no matter any disadvantages they've seen in the past. At the end of the day BRD is taking up far too much space and the only answers to that fact are ignoring it or bringing it in line with casters and MCH. Since BRDs seem very opposed to losing utility it seems like the best option becomes dps nerfs.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

People liking its gameplay wouldn't mean much if it wasn't also one of the best jobs to have in your team. People liked RDM, but once it became more cemented that the job was really only good for progression, it fell off. People liked SAM and BLM, but again, as more and more people realized that they didn't bring the adequate damage to compensate for the fact they're not team players.

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It does when you aren't nerfing BRD to a point people wouldn't take it. In fact, BLM is a perfect example of this. Its damage is monstrous, and it's essentially considered equal to SMN yet its popularity didn't move much this tier. Why? It's never been a popular job at any stage due to its gameplay. MCH falls in the same category. A 5% nerf to BRD tomorrow isn't going to put much of a dent in any statistic because a huge issue with MCH is its gameplay. I don't disagree with BRD getting brought down a little—never have this entire time—just with the notion MCH's popularity will suddenly jump start over it when at no point in two expansions has MCH ever been popular.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

It was meta because the casters were garbage through most of this expansion. What flavor of garbage did you want, the turret that needs the whole party to adjust to it and doesn't reward the party for strategies that do so (BLM)? A slightly less turret that did less damage than even BRD at certain places (RDM)? Or a jumbled mess of mechanics and spells that the devs kind of barfed up and hoped was good (SMN)? ...or perhaps, Machinist, who not only didn't need to be adjusted to, but was just as mobile as bard, but enhanced bard's burst potential and increased healer damage potential even more?

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You just said lots of people dislike SMN yet its currently fourth place amongst the DPS because of meta. Why didn't this apply to MCH? During Deltascape it was widely better than all the Casters yet still the least played job. Once again, my point hasn't been damage related but this idea MCH will suddenly become popular when it's never occurred before.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Notice into Sigmascape, Summoner was what overtook Machinist. Summoner was fixed up a bit and given a gigantic damage upgrade, getting close to being the highest damaging job in the game. As well, whenever Machinist buffs are brought up, it's casters who need to be considered because they're the ones MCH would compete against--not BRD. Which brings us back to...Machinist cannot be buffed, but its competitor apparently cannot be nerfed.

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I never said BRD couldn't be nerfed. Don't put words in my mouth. I said, for the third time, it won't abruptly make MCH popular with its current gameplay. I only tagged into this discussion on that premise. Regardless, the issue with BRD is how it scales, which will not be touched until 5.0. Hence why I said earlier they aren't going to just slap a 5% nerf on BRD for six months then readjust everything all over again six months later.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Not every Bard and Machinist has a dragoon. Bard and Machinist easily bring their fair share without Dragoon.

As I stated, the amount of tools they bring only makes sense in the scenario where Dragoon isn't there. Claiming that somehow Bard is deadweight without Dragoon is false. The -dragoon- is dead weight without the Bard, because Ninja, Monk, and Samurai are all better when no Ranged role is in the party.

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You've moved the goal post again.

I said if you apply this hypothetical 5% you suggested, BRD is a dead weight job without a DRG. Their rDPS wouldn't make up the enormous loss overall. This isn't the case currently, though why you would run without a DRG on either physical range is anyone's guess. Regardless it's also likely why we won't see any significant changes because I have ever belief Piercing dies come 5.0 and that is how they'll settle MCH/BRD. MCH will be better compensated whereas BRD won't. But this won't happen mid tier.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I hope nothing in the game going forward is buffed to the ridiculous level BRD is now no matter any disadvantages they've seen in the past. At the end of the day BRD is taking up far too much space and the only answers to that fact are ignoring it or bringing it in line with casters and MCH. Since BRDs seem very opposed to losing utility it seems like the best option becomes dps nerfs.

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The funny thing is, BRD was never buffed in Stormblood. This all occurred because they foolish don't balance BRD or MCH with a DRG in mind. Therefore, they wouldn't notice the scaling issues since BRD's pDPS without a DRG is quite low, especially because it procs less. While purely speculative on my part, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't really consider how much Litany and other Crit buffs impact the aforementioned scaling. It would explain why they didn't fix it whatsoever when this happened in Heavensward. I suppose they assumed RNG and a 5% piercing nerf would do it? Either way, the only reason they've finally considered removing Piercing outright is due to JP also complaining.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You've moved the goal post again.

I said if you apply this hypothetical 5% you suggested, BRD is a dead weight job without a DRG. Their rDPS wouldn't make up the enormous loss overall. This isn't the case currently, though why you would run without a DRG on either physical range is anyone's guess. Regardless it's also likely why we won't see any significant changes because I have ever belief Piercing dies come 5.0 and that is how they'll settle MCH/BRD. MCH will be better compensated whereas BRD won't. But this won't happen mid tier.

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Lol.

Okay.

Using 95th percentile data (As this represents fairly optimized play without perfect conditions / RNG), Bards are sitting at 7200 and Machinist at 7300 on Chaos (Chosen arbitrarily - Chaos has minimal downtime for range jobs, limited transition, single target, ease of access for Parse runs)

Cherry picking a comp of Paladin, Warrior, Scholar, Astro, Ninja, Dragoon, Summoner and filling in the last spot with either Bard or Machinist.

That's 5.2, 5.5, 3.8, 3.8, 7.2, 7.2, 7.7, and then another 7.2 or 7.3.

Grand Total Raid DPS
Bard: 47.6k
Mach: 47.7k

Docking bard by 5% (360)
Bard: 47.2k
Mach: 47.7k

Adding Samurai instead of Dragoon (7.9k vs 7.2)
Bard: 47.9k
Mach: 48.4k

Removing Piercing and Litany: Machinist is around 7%. Bard, due to double dipping crits is probably around 8%. Mach (-600), Bard ( -550)
Bard: 47.35k
Mach: 47.8k

Percentage difference (Bard now with Dragoon vs Bard Nerf without Dragoon)

Edit: Adjusting total RDPS down for Litany using a 7200 Dragoon (450 average. Assuming equal distribution based on damage, then giving bard a bit more favor due to double dipping, -380 from BNDrg)

BDrag: 47.6k
BNDrg: 46.95k

Difference: 1.4%

Edit: Machinist for comaprison

MDrag: 47.7k
MNDrg: 47.3k

Difference: .9%

Difference between BNDrg and MNDrg: .74%

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Grand Total Raid DPS
Bard: 47.6k
Mach: 47.7k

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What are we arguing about again?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

What are we arguing about again?

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This entire block is addressing "Nerfed bard is deadweight without dragoon".

Which is patently not true.

Bonus Round: Replacing Bard/Mach with something else.

Previous decided Nerfed-No-Drag Raid Total
Bard: 46.95k
Mach: 47.3k

First we have to remove the value Machinist and Bard bring to the Raid. Using comparable raid logs and estimating their contribution (Bard ~2%, Mach 1.25%) we have

Bard: ~900
Mach: ~591

Total
Bard: 46.05k
Mach: 46.7k

Now, lets replace them both with the current abuser: Black Mage.

Our previous blurb up there established Nerf-No-Drag Bard and No-Drag Mach to be
Bard: 6290
Mach: 6700

An equivalent Black Mage is 8,070, so we'll round up to 8100.
Bard: +1810
Mach: +1400

Adjusting said Black Mage down due to no litany (Due to Sam replacement: - ~70) and No -
Bard Buffs: 7870
Machinist Buffs: 7930

BlamRepBard: 47.63k
BlameRepMach: 48k

Percentage difference - Bard

Bard: 46.95k
Blam: 47.6k

1.4%

Percentage difference - Mach

Mach: 47.3k
Blam: 48k

1.5%

Quite a discussion I'm seeing here. What I hope for is that the dev team considers what is being said here since this is constructive debate, and could lead to them thinking up something either great, or...something else. ...I still think the consensus is that the DPS Role has a lot of stigma when it comes to Raid Buffs.

If they want to change it, they need to fix A LOT of things to make every job desirable instead of "Take BRD because it buffs everything".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

This entire block is addressing "Nerfed bard is deadweight without dragoon".

Which is patently not true.

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Your estimations are off. Fortunately, we have a site that calculates rDPS, albeit it isn't perfect but it does the job. http://www.xivrdps.com/encounters/nLjybwfQktHXadTV/13

Litany is a wash in terms of pure damage, though it does impact BRD more noticeably due to the proc nature of their job. For the sake of argument's, we'll put that aside and call it a wash. Likewise, we'll half Piercing, subtract 5% from BRD's pDPS and remove Dragon Sight.

MCH: 6,780
BRD: 6,481

That is a substantial difference, especially as BRD would drop even lower due to the aforementioned lowered chance of procs. For comparison sake, SMN's rDPS hovers just shy of 8k. The gap between them and a nerfed, DRG-less BRD is nearly 1,500 rDPS. I'll grant you dead weight may be a bit too strong a term if only because I didn't include MCH. They'd both be surviving on Refresh. Basically, DRG just became even more comfy in its spot. Which is a moot point. It is somewhat ironic though because the whole fighting for one spot argument is equally true on the melee side. NIN/MNK/SAM fight while DRG slots in. And because Trick Attack is Trick Attack, well, it's not much competition for NIN.

Simply put, a lot of balancing issues need to be addressed. Which isn't going to happen pre-expansion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It does when you aren't nerfing BRD to a point people wouldn't take it. In fact, BLM is a perfect example of this. Its damage is monstrous, and it's essentially considered equal to SMN yet its popularity didn't move much this tier. Why? It's never been a popular job at any stage due to its gameplay.

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And yet, Black Mages no longer feel like an absolute detriment to their party--which is the point of buffs and nerfs.

Quote:

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MCH falls in the same category. A 5% nerf to BRD tomorrow isn't going to put much of a dent in any statistic because a huge issue with MCH is its gameplay.

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But Machinists won't feel like as much of a detriment to their party--are we seeing a theme yet?--and feel more comfortable within their own job in the static.

Quote:

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I don't disagree with BRD getting brought down a little—never have this entire time—just with the notion MCH's popularity will suddenly jump start over it when at no point in two expansions has MCH ever been popular.

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Just because it's not going to be a binary "MCH is now the prettiest girl in school" doesn't mean nothing should be done about the rock and a hard place it's in.

Quote:

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You just said lots of people dislike SMN yet its currently fourth place amongst the DPS because of meta. Why didn't this apply to MCH? During Deltascape it was widely better than all the Casters yet still the least played job.

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You'll have to forgive me, but evidence to this claim? I never looked at the upload numbers for Delta when it was active, however I still have to hold a healthy amount of skepticism. I know during Sigma it became true, but during Sigma is when Summoner took over.

Quote:

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Once again, my point hasn't been damage related but this idea MCH will suddenly become popular when it's never occurred before.

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You're honestly kind of all over the place without a clear point. MCH's popularity is a symptom of it being a badly designed job, but BRD's overpopularity is a symptom of a lot of things, ranging from its simplified design, compatibility with every group type, be that giving everyone else buffs, or everyone else's buffs meaning so much more for Bard because of how its crit scaling and burst works.

Quote:

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I never said BRD couldn't be nerfed. Don't put words in my mouth.

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I never said that you did. Don't put words in my mouth. That is, however, the general argument against this thread's proposal, so you'll have to forgive me addressing it in the grander scheme of things.

Quote:

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I said, for the third time, it won't abruptly make MCH popular with its current gameplay. I only tagged into this discussion on that premise.

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The rising tide floats all boats. Bard dropping from 21% of all DPS uploads means everybody else's participation rates rise, including Machinist.

Quote:

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Regardless, the issue with BRD is how it scales, which will not be touched until 5.0. Hence why I said earlier they aren't going to just slap a 5% nerf on BRD for six months then readjust everything all over again six months later.

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They've done weirder for balance before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

You'll have to forgive me, but evidence to this claim? I never looked at the upload numbers for Delta when it was active, however I still have to hold a healthy amount of skepticism. I know during Sigma it became true, but during Sigma is when Summoner took over.

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Sadly, FFlogs only tracks two weeks. So Deltascape wouldn't be an accurate representation anymore. Even using those numbers though, MCH only barely pulled ahead of BLM, which was in arguably the worst state its ever been in at that point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

You're honestly kind of all over the place without a clear point. MCH's popularity is a symptom of it being a badly designed job, but BRD's overpopularity is a symptom of a lot of things, ranging from its simplified design, compatibility with every group type, be that giving everyone else buffs, or everyone else's buffs meaning so much more for Bard because of how its crit scaling and burst works.

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The point is BRD has always been exceedingly popular whereas MCH has never been popular. The only time BRD showed a dip is throughout Heavensward primarily because of cast times. I'll acknowledge its speculative hence why I said I sincerely doubt a nerf of any kind will change the landscape. That will only occur with an overhaul. Look at DRK. It's numbers barely budged despite the buffs it received before Alphascape. People don't like the DA spam. So they just aren't playing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

They've done weirder for balance before.

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Feel free to correct if I'm wrong, but they have never nerfed a job mid-tier by 5% since Heavensward. It has always been buffs or very negligible nerfs. Expecting them to change that stance less than a year before 5.0 is setting yourself up for disappointment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Your estimations are off. Fortunately, we have a site that calculates rDPS, albeit it isn't perfect but it does the job.

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Individual logs, especially top 99-100 speed run logs, are disingenuous at best to use. That is why I utilized aggregate data instead. For example, for some reason you skipped this one.

http://www.xivrdps.com/encounters/HQCbDJjpyPf2KzZ1/124

Despite it being one where both bard and machinist are present, and the party cleared faster.

Or this one

http://www.xivrdps.com/encounters/dkLKH4cyTq89ZabF/21

We avoid using specific logs because they inherently favor the viewpoint we're looking for. Aggregate data is less likely to do so. We simply take the most common group compositions, and effectively math from there, while having access to a handy reference for those at the same percentile.

Edit: Also, for your own use later:

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...&timespan=1000

You set to [Odd Patch] and then to "Entire Tier". Remember the population at large doesn't hit the parse / speed kill section until much later into the tier. So for Deltascape you do 4.1, Sigma you do 4.3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The funny thing is, BRD was never buffed in Stormblood. This all occurred because they foolish don't balance BRD or MCH with a DRG in mind. Therefore, they wouldn't notice the scaling issues since BRD's pDPS without a DRG is quite low, especially because it procs less. While purely speculative on my part, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't really consider how much Litany and other Crit buffs impact the aforementioned scaling. It would explain why they didn't fix it whatsoever when this happened in Heavensward. I suppose they assumed RNG and a 5% piercing nerf would do it? Either way, the only reason they've finally considered removing Piercing outright is due to JP also complaining.

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BRD being buffed in SB (or not) isn't the issue. I'm not saying I take issue with the journey, only the destination. I understand that crit scaling impacted BRD more than any other job for obvious reasons but I have to admit I'm hesitant to believe (if only because it would crush my already precariously placed faith) that the devs don't understand the way piercing and synergistic crit buffs have played a role in forming and retaining the core of the meta.

The point is that no one job with ultimately 8 others who could take their place should be making up 1/5 dps logs for a raid tier. The disparity speaks for itself. BRD is the lynchpin of what I see as stagnation in raid composition and I hope the devs can do something about that going forward, if not in 4.5 then at least in 5.0. There are certainly other changes that I hope come along and as someone who wants to enjoy playing BRD I don't want them to cripple it or anything but it needs to be taken down a peg or three.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The funny thing is, BRD was never buffed in Stormblood.

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It got buffed in 4.07 with a 10 second increase to Straight Shot’s Duration and a 10 second reduced Recast on Barrage.

I've been following this for several days. Don't have an oar to dip when it comes to end-game raiding, but I would like to point out to those who are concerned that their "fair share" of slots aren't being filled by <class-of-choice> ...

Playing Bard is fun as all get out. Playing Machinist is a chore at this point, it isn't as fun. Perhaps the popularity in raids is more of this (fun vs not as fun) and less of that (I can do 500 more damage).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I've been following this for several days. Don't have an oar to dip when it comes to end-game raiding, but I would like to point out to those who are concerned that their "fair share" of slots aren't being filled by <class-of-choice> ...

Playing Bard is fun as all get out. Playing Machinist is a chore at this point, it isn't as fun. Perhaps the popularity in raids is more of this (fun vs not as fun) and less of that (I can do 500 more damage).

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I'm less concerned about there not being enough of a class and more about unbalanced class design and ignored gameplay feedback.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Individual logs, especially top 99-100 speed run logs, are disingenuous at best to use. That is why I utilized aggregate data instead. For example, for some reason you skipped this one.

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No reason in particular outside I know groups who ran BRD/MCH and searched them, specifically as their overalls generally line up evenly. That particular parse would be imbalanced since the BRD is better than the MCH. Regardless, I will concede it'd have less of an impact than initial thought. Granted, you still wouldn't run a DRG-less comp but that's semantics at this point.

With that said, I still see this as a 5.0 change when everything gets re-balance because I just don't see a nerf doing anything due to how disliked MCH's gameplay is. They should at least acknowledge MCH's issues though. That I will grant you since they seem keen on ignoring everything completely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

It got buffed in 4.07 with a 10 second increase to Straight Shot’s Duration and a 10 second reduced Recast on Barrage.

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I stand corrected.

Cheeeeeeeeee *Stares at this post* Don't mess with my in town running hore!! :( :mad:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Granted, you still wouldn't run a DRG-less comp but that's semantics at this point..

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*cries in no Dragoon*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

What are we arguing about again?

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Basically, everyone is just taking their frustarations over their mains on BRD again...

And using DPS numbers which mean nothing as brd is wanted for just its utility...

And, because most jobs do not bring enough utility or inspire different party compositions in raids and stuff besides red mage....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Quite a discussion I'm seeing here. What I hope for is that the dev team considers what is being said here since this is constructive debate, and could lead to them thinking up something either great, or...something else. ...I still think the consensus is that the DPS Role has a lot of stigma when it comes to Raid Buffs.

If they want to change it, they need to fix A LOT of things to make every job desirable instead of "Take BRD because it buffs everything".

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Totes, and they just need to remove sidewinder from PvE or give other jobs actual utility abilities that would make them attractive to group content and stop making jobs a total mess with a lack of meaning and actions that feel empty and without weight to them. And, actually address their problems like giving BLM the ability to teleport between N S E W points, an ability to shift those nodes to go NE NW SE SW, a 7 second invincibility ogcd that also prevents the player from attacking by shift into the void, and then decrease the number of wasted space similarly to how stone was handled for whm.

My thought on MCH are on the first and second pages

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I hope nothing in the game going forward is buffed to the ridiculous level BRD is now no matter any disadvantages they've seen in the past. At the end of the day BRD is taking up far too much space and the only answers to that fact are ignoring it or bringing it in line with casters and MCH. Since BRDs seem very opposed to losing utility it seems like the best option becomes dps nerfs.

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It's not really BRD it's actually because the other jobs need to have an impact to the party or just abilities to fix some of thier short comings. Like having to be a stationary turret in an MMO with bosses like Talurd.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BeautifulNerf

Cheeeeeeeeee *Stares at this post* Don't mess with my in town running hore!! :( :mad:

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Uh, Gesundheit?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

Basically, everyone is just taking their frustarations over their mains on BRD again...

And using DPS numbers which mean nothing as brd is wanted for just its utility...

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BRD's utility isn't all of it. They also gain the most from crit rate raid buffs such as Chain Stratagem, Spear, and Battle Litany, which can push their spike DPS levels high enough in order to match selfish DPS. All of BRD's procs are based on their DoTs critting, and you can essentially double their crit rate in ideal conditions, but often bump it up enough to reliably spam through the majority of Ballad and hit Pitch Perfect between every GCD in Minuet. Keep in mind they can also snapshot these buffs in order to prolong their benefits too.

A Dragoon is capable of nearly matching BRD's raid contribution just by grouping with both Ranged DPS, through a combination of Litany and Piercing.

A Ninja already comes close to matching what a BRD can do via TA alone.

A Scholar can match it with Chain and Selene.

BRD, however, utilizes raid dps buffs better than any other class currently. They are too weak without them and too strong with them. That is the problem.

Their exclusive non-dps utility isn't even that good. I'd take Dismantle over Minne/Troubadour in Savage any day. Refresh is broken and MCH is weak and clunky.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

And, because most jobs do not bring enough utility or inspire different party compositions in raids and stuff besides red mage....

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All RDM brings right now is raise. SMN outclasses it in every aspect. And even can raise in prog still. Embolden is good with enough melee/ranged dps but terrible with a single co-caster.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MPNZ

Totes, and they just need to remove sidewinder from PvE or give other jobs actual utility abilities that would make them attractive to group content and stop making jobs a total mess with a lack of meaning and actions that feel empty and without weight to them. And, actually address their problems like giving BLM the ability to teleport between N S E W points, an ability to shift those nodes to go NE NW SE SW, a 7 second invincibility ogcd that also prevents the player from attacking by shift into the void, and then decrease the number of wasted space similarly to how stone was handled for whm.

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BLM is fine. It's probably the most well balanced class at the moment. Yes it has mobility issues but it can circumvent them with enough player experience, fight knowledge, and adapting to procs (lest you want to be rescued out of F1 for greeding). It's the one class that doesn't -need- to be changed at all in this entire expansion, but would appreciate it nonetheless.