How to give advice

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Someone might try to call it sugarcoating or hand-holding, but that doesn't change the fact that it's essential that the person maintains control over whether they want to seek out advice or not. If they don't, then you may just need to exit yourself from the situation. Or grin and bear it until the end and then leave, having gotten what you came in for.

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Or kick them for playstyle differences.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Entitlement attitude? The folks picking apart my posts are thin skinned. It doesn't feel great when someone challenges them and they are making sure to let me know it.

It doesn't feel great when someone talks to you the way you talk to others - but if this is the only way to communicate that to people then so be it.

That's my whole point here - there's a right way and a wrong way to communicate with people and most of the posters in here get that, the other x% have their hackles up because they viewed my tone as mean while posting mean things themselves and swearing that everyone should just have a thicker skin. You can't have it both ways. Folks don't get to be condescending and mean to others and then turn around and get their panties in a bunch when someone does it back. When that happens, that tells me they really *do* agree that the person described in the OP was being a tool and they *know* how to properly behave toward other people to get good results, but they want to feel superior and shred the OP anyway because it's the internet and we all want to have a big epeen and anonymity makes it easy to do that.

It's freaking ridiculous.

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You claim that others are thin-skinned, but then tell other people not to run their mouths. You were the very first person to fire back with an antagonistic and condescending tone against Almidia's opinion and took everything that she said as someone being aggressive and rude when she wasn't. If you don't want people to snip back at you then perhaps you shouldn't insult them and call them tools.

Maybe try not throwing stones in glass houses sometimes. You can't have it both ways either. If you didn't have such a spiteful and goading tone with your second post, then no one would have cared what you posted in the first place. You don't get to be mean and disrespectful towards others, calling them entitled and tools, and then cry victim when your negativity is also met with even more negativity.

It's completely pointless to be posting full rotations mid-run - unless you actually expect the person is going to stop, likely adjust their toolbars, get their head around the new stuff with no practice, then be perfect all while you sit about waiting? What? You don't want to sit about waiting for all that? A dose of reality is needed for some.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Can't sympathize. I don't understand the people with your mindset who think they are above criticism and that people need to sugarcoat every little word they say. You already admit you should work on that, so instead of getting upset take the good points and learn from the situation.

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Hmmm... I think that everybody need to learn new things, especially if they are not expert player but the way to approach a conversation and try to express a concept MATTERS. Teaching something or give explanations about any topic and for any kind of thing is an ability that not everybody has, you can find people with great knowledge but not able to explain themselves,resume concept or put it in a sentence without sounding annoying. That’s why you need to qualify yourself to be a teacher lol.
We didn’t read the conversation so we don’t know what this person was and how.
People are not suppose to bossy others around anyway, if you want give an advices make it sound like an advice! Start with things like:
hey,would you like an advice? Or...
there is something I would like to share with you. Or...
I would like to give you a suggestion..
Stuff like that.
He admits has to learn better but there is time and opportunity in game o no need to disappoint the OP even more :P

I think what surprises me the most (actually, no, this shouldn't surprise me) is that the first reaction was to come here and post about this situation, attacking the person who was giving the advice, while ignoring the other side of the problem.

OP could have taken this opportunity to come to the forums and seek the advice that they even admit they're in need of, and I'm sure they would have received said advice.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I think what surprises me the most (actually, no, this shouldn't surprise me) is that the first reaction was to come here and post about this situation, attacking the person who was giving the advice, while ignoring the other side of the problem.

OP could have taken this opportunity to come to the forums and seek the advice that they even admit they're in need of, and I'm sure they would have received said advice.

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Because its not about the advice if we are all being honest here. Hes crossed cause he felt the person in question was rude and that's the actual issue. Least that's what I got from it. I'm sure if he didn't feel that way he wouldn't have posted what he did. Remember its not what you say. It's how you say it. Noone is going to listen to you even if you're right if you come at them incorrect.

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Originally Posted by ko_

Because its not about the advice if we are all being honest here. Hes crossed cause he felt the person in question was rude and that's the actual issue. Least that's what I got from it. I'm sure if he didn't feel that way he wouldn't have posted what he did. Remember its not what you say. It's how you say it. Noone is going to listen to you even if you're right if you come at them incorrect.

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But he has the opportunity right now to get advice that isn't rude. Just needs to ask.

That would be a positive result of this whole situation. Instead it's just a post attacking someone.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

But he has the opportunity right now to get advice that isn't rude. Just needs to ask.

That would be a positive result of this whole situation. Instead it's just a post attacking someone.

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Maybe so. But humans get stuck in their feelings. He might've gotten the info from someone or something. Or maybe he just wanted to vent. I dunno. :c

I'm gonna come off as a jerk here but so be it.
A: You know there's a difference between a multi target rotation and single target rotation and
B: You clearly know where the forums are.
You're in the wrong for not having done any research at all to establish even the most basic of rotations in a dungeon. The guy shouldn't have to tell you at all not to use or use a skill, you should, out of courtesy know the bare minimum of using your MT versus ST skills. You may be levelling but you're at least past 50 and you haven't figured out a bare minimum MT rotation? On a BLM? 100% the guy giving you unsolicited advice was certainly tired of dragging you through said dungeon and that likely justifiably colored his/her tone. No one expects raid tier dps in dungeons, but sweet ginger deity of your choosing, you're being rude just showing up like that.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

I didn't insult the OP like you're trying to do to me.

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Can't empathize. Sorry not sorry.
(It's really not hard to be kind to people. It costs you nothing.)

The good: OP admits they need to practice, they'll hopefully use their frustration to grow, and the guy giving advice was willing to give a whole rotation.

The bad: OP should have practiced their AOE and single target rotations separately since they knew it was a thing before hopping into grouped content, and opening advice with "Let me school you" Is pretty rude and I can totally understand why it would get to someone.

In the end, I think everyone should practice before they hop into grouped content, it helps a ton, If you don't then be prepared for advice or criticism.
I also feel advice should be given kindly and respectfully, if you can't do that don't complain about people getting defensive or being unreceptive to it because you're a part of the problem to.

Just as I don't care to play with someone who's "good" but has a horrid, toxic attitude, I'd likewise not want to play with someone who's "bad" just because they are polite and kind. That being said, if I had to pick? I'd pick the "bad" player.

However, I'm only human however and even I have my pet peeves. When a player does something wrong, I'm always reluctant to give pointers because either A) they'll listen, thank me, and try something different (rare occurrence), B) get angry, spew anger and make the rest of the run even harder or C) ignore chat completely (my personal favorite).


I do try to be polite about it, because I know I wouldn't like it if someone yelled at me what I should or shouldn't do (and at that point, I wouldn't care either). So while I understand your frustration OP, and personally sympathize, I also think you should practice your rotations for your own sake. Black mage isn't the easiest job, but it's far from being the most difficult either - and being a job that offers little to no utility, you really need to learn how to push your damage to that next level.

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Originally Posted by Reylinn

I'm gonna come off as a jerk here but so be it.
A: You know there's a difference between a multi target rotation and single target rotation and
B: You clearly know where the forums are.
You're in the wrong for not having done any research at all to establish even the most basic of rotations in a dungeon. The guy shouldn't have to tell you at all not to use or use a skill, you should, out of courtesy know the bare minimum of using your MT versus ST skills. You may be levelling but you're at least past 50 and you haven't figured out a bare minimum MT rotation? On a BLM? 100% the guy giving you unsolicited advice was certainly tired of dragging you through said dungeon and that likely justifiably colored his/her tone. No one expects raid tier dps in dungeons, but sweet ginger deity of your choosing, you're being rude just showing up like that.

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Levelling/ 50/60,70 roulettes are casual content not savage raids! I personally think BLM is the easiest rotation in game lol but still you can’t pretend people doing RESEARCH on how to optimise a class in the best way before entering savage raids or ex trials, I mean is a game and it’s suppose to be not stressing at all IN A CASUAL CONTEST and you can’t make everybody feel the pressure of playing perfectly at all levels
If you are familiar with this kind of game by reading your skills and do a bit of practice you can play at a decent level. Sometimes I find lvl 50 player haviby great performances and other at lvl 70 with 350+ gear that are tremendous but we must to accept that, that’s normal so get jus to it or don’t play casual contents (:
As I said this morning there are ways and ways to give suggestions and recommendations and not everybody know how to tank nicely or just don’t want to.
The OP said he needs improvement and he will slowly but he got the right attitude to learn xD

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Levelling/ 50/60,70 roulettes are casual content not savage raids!

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Screeching 'it's not savage let them be bad' is the reason we have sub 2k dps walking into Savage now confused as to why people are frustrated with them and removing them from parties.

While all this debate is happening, here I am wondering if the two other party members would've waited for the blm to read the rotation link, much less give him/her time to apply and practice while they're in the dgn...

ITT: Random players you come across can sound like assholes and you just have to deal with it, and realize that you'll probably see this shit again unless you improve.

Or you could always let everyone know that you're still not the best at (insert whatever you are playing) and they would be more likely to shut up and expect the fact that you're not the best.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Screeching 'it's not savage let them be bad' is the reason we have sub 2k dps walking into Savage now confused as to why people are frustrated with them and removing them from parties.

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Levelling,50/60 and 70 dangeouns ARE training grounds, and to do savage competence and practice IS A MUST.
If you don’t have enough practice and can’t play well with your class, you should not play savage just for a matter of respect to others. But at low level I don’t think high competency is required and how I said there is a difference between give suggestions and bossy people. The way you formulate sentence makes the difference often.
The op like many others can learn time by time and no need of pressure.

Anyway you don’t need to be a genius or have orange logs to play good runs in savage but it more a matter of practice, you can have the perfect rotation but are not able to dodge so you fail but you can fix that with practise. Same concept for DPS performances, you can improve little by little, run after run as far as you start from a good basic level of knowledge. Nobody is a champions on the first clear.
As a main healer like me you can agree that or performance depends by other performances, less mistakes from party members, better tanks means better scores.
2 k DPS as you say are rare like 1 in a 1000 and mostly people jumping in with no training at all.

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Originally Posted by Bellsong

The good: OP admits they need to practice, they'll hopefully use their frustration to grow, and the guy giving advice was willing to give a whole rotation.

The bad: OP should have practiced their AOE and single target rotations separately since they knew it was a thing before hopping into grouped content, and opening advice with "Let me school you" Is pretty rude and I can totally understand why it would get to someone.

In the end, I think everyone should practice before they hop into grouped content, it helps a ton, If you don't then be prepared for advice or criticism.
I also feel advice should be given kindly and respectfully, if you can't do that don't complain about people getting defensive or being unreceptive to it because you're a part of the problem to.

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That is the point dear... Advice is welcome, positive and encouraged.
Criticism is not! Just pointless and not appreciated by most of people.
Like imagine in a working environment:
Are you ok if colleague criticise you ? I doubt, probably an healthy advice to improve may be better . You can find people ( or colleagues) the criticise just to diminish you and others that give you advice to improve your OTE, l think we all prefer second kind of people to work with.
Same concept applies in ffxiv :p

I can understand your frustration. A reverse thing happened to me yesterday. I joined leveling roulette as tank because i am doing those for tank mounts, and i got lv 67 dungeon. We had a SCH, who had "The Legend" title, which if you don't know for clearing Ultimate Coil of Bahamut. And our BLM had all diamond gear set, which is for clearing savage.

Anyway, we started. This BLM didn't use any of enmity control actions, aka diversion, lucid dreaming etc. I am used to go into dps stance as a tank while tanking so i did it, but BLM didn't use ANY of enmity actions and at the last boss i had to go into tank stance.

As for SCH, let's just say we wiped 4 times. He didn't use any shields, he didn't use his fairy properly. He tried to spam physick while i was in holmgang waiting for some lustrates... He was so terrible, i couldn't even understand. Without his legend title, i would have thought he was new to the game tbh. (And btw it was a regular pull, i didn't pull 2 stacks or anything because i tried it and we wiped ofc).

I didn't complain. Why? Because they would probably kick me because what do i know right? I am a BLM, SCH, WHM main. I never cleared savage but i know how to not snap agro from tanks and how to properly heal.

People are dicks. I suggest get used to it, because there are a lot of them in this game.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Levelling,50/60 and 70 dangeouns ARE training grounds, and to do savage competence and practice IS A MUST.
If you don’t have enough practice and can’t play well with your class, you should not play savage just for a matter of respect to others. But at low level I don’t think high competency is required and how I said there is a difference between give suggestions and bossy people. The way you formulate sentence makes the difference often.
The op like many others can learn time by time and no need of pressure.

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Knowing the difference between an AoE-spell and a ST-spell is "high competency"?
In my book, its not - its part of the very basic-concept and required knowledge as DPS, just how it is very basic and required knowledge as healer to be aware how your healing-spells work and for a tank to know how to hold aggro and how to use cooldowns.

Learning and practising is okay in leveling dungeons, yes - but please show me that you're doing that or I'll give you the needed hint. If someone is casting Thunder IV on a ST repeatedly, chances are that they either never read the tooltip or forgot what it said, which means they'll most likely never find out that they're doing something wrong their. Its not as if they're trying to figure out wether Thunder IV or Thunder III is the stronger spell. All they're doing right in this moment is practising a wrong rotation, which is gonna bite them in the behind later.

The basic-rotations in this game dont require you to be a genius - and knowing the difference between your AoE and your ST toolkit requires nothing more of you than reading your tooltips.
We're not talking about how to use Convert and an Aether to get more Flares out of your rotation.

Why is it always "Oh, if you're not doing savage, you dont need to know what half your skills do!"?
And how is someone supposed to learn in dungeons if they're not aware that or what they need to work on? Your rotation (specially as DPS) is pretty much muscle memory and thats what you should practise in a dungeon: Using your correct rotation for the situation (AoE vs. ST) blindley. Obviously that requires you to know this rotation before. You're not in a dungeon to figure out what your spells do and to read the tooltips, while the rest of your party patiently waits for your to do your homework in class.
I'll give leeway for the first 4 dungeons though, for people who are really new to the genre, but past that I expect a healer to do more than spam their stromgest healing-skill, a tank to use cooldowns and their aggro-skills and a DPS to know the difference between AoE and ST.

Long story short: Yes, dungeons are training grounds, but you're not learning anything if you train the wrong stuff.
I've never been to a gym, but I would hope that if someone uses some of the equiment there in a wrong way, someone else would come over to tell them "Hey, you're holding this wrong, let me show you!"

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Knowing the difference between an AoE-spell and a ST-spell is "high competency"?
In my book, its not - its part of the very basic-concept and required knowledge as DPS, just how it is very basic and required knowledge as healer to be aware how your healing-spells work and for a tank to know how to hold aggro and how to use cooldowns.

Learning and practising is okay in leveling dungeons, yes - but please show me that you're doing that or I'll give you the needed hint. If someone is casting Thunder IV on a ST repeatedly, chances are that they either never read the tooltip or forgot what it said, which means they'll most likely never find out that they're doing something wrong their. Its not as if they're trying to figure out wether Thunder IV or Thunder III is the stronger spell. All they're doing right in this moment is practising a wrong rotation, which is gonna bite them in the behind later.

The basic-rotations in this game dont require you to be a genius - and knowing the difference between your AoE and your ST toolkit requires nothing more of you than reading your tooltips.
We're not talking about how to use Convert and an Aether to get more Flares out of your rotation.

Why is it always "Oh, if you're not doing savage, you dont need to know what half your skills do!"?
And how is someone supposed to learn in dungeons if they're not aware that or what they need to work on? Your rotation (specially as DPS) is pretty much muscle memory and thats what you should practise in a dungeon: Using your correct rotation for the situation (AoE vs. ST) blindley. Obviously that requires you to know this rotation before. You're not in a dungeon to figure out what your spells do and to read the tooltips, while the rest of your party patiently waits for your to do your homework in class.
I'll give leeway for the first 4 dungeons though, for people who are really new to the genre, but past that I expect a healer to do more than spam their stromgest healing-skill, a tank to use cooldowns and their aggro-skills and a DPS to know the difference between AoE and ST.

Long story short: Yes, dungeons are training grounds, but you're not learning anything if you train the wrong stuff.
I've never been to a gym, but I would hope that if someone uses some of the equiment there in a wrong way, someone else would come over to tell them "Hey, you're holding this wrong, let me show you!"

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Well in your example the person was way nicer then most people tend to be. But that's my point. Noone is going to care if you yell at them or whatever. If you come with respect and welcoming them you'll more likely get the results you want. It's not perfect no. But those who snap for reason are shot anyway.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

That is the point dear... Advice is welcome, positive and encouraged.
Criticism is not! Just pointless and not appreciated by most of people.
Like imagine in a working environment:
Are you ok if colleague criticise you ? I doubt, probably an healthy advice to improve may be better . You can find people ( or colleagues) the criticise just to diminish you and others that give you advice to improve your OTE, l think we all prefer second kind of people to work with.
Same concept applies in ffxiv :p

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There's lots of instances where criticism is a good thing, it isn't always diminishing either. The biggest problem with criticism is people who don't know how to give it which is what gives people so much anxiety receiving it.
I suppose I could have said "Constructive criticism" but either way I feel my point still stands, if you're going to do something while willfully being unprepared for it you should not be surprised that people may speak up.
Advice and criticism in certain places are very important for growth. And some jobs will require you to take it well, especially artistic jobs.

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Originally Posted by ko_

Well in your example the person was way nicer then most people tend to be. But that's my point. Noone is going to care if you yell at them or whatever. If you come with respect and welcoming them you'll more likely get the results you want. It's not perfect no. But those who snap for reason are shot anyway.

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Yes, but the person didnt ask either, which is all that I'm arguing about: Advice should be given in a polite, friendly and constructive way (personally, I try to present it lightly or as some form of I-message - "I found it very useful to do X, maybe you want to try it too?"), but if someone is doing something wrong and is training the wrong (brain) muscles right now, I dont think it requires asking for permission to correct that.

If the OP would have been "Hey, can we all make sure we give advice without being condescending?" I would have agreed with them in a heartbeat. But thats not what the OP was about. The OP was about "Before you give any advice, ask if you're allowed to". And thats what I dont agree with. As long as your advice is brought for in a polite manner, I consider that question a waste of everyones time, as long as the whole thing is only about something quick like "Please, use skil X instead of skill Y" or "Try to keep your buff up all the time!" or basically just repeating what the tooltip of the skill says - a tooltip that the person in question should have read before entering the dungeon.
The only time asking for permission is warranted in my book is if someone needs a longer explantion - in that case that question is not only for him but for the whole party to answer ("Would you mind waiting?")

Advice should always be given in a polite manner, so that it can (and should) be recived as constructive feedback and not as a personal attack.
But we dont need to walk on eggshells here - we just need to be polite in the way we interact with others. That includes how we phrase advice, but for me it also includes knowing your basics once you've got your jobstone.

Just don't give advice at all, help who asks for it because people are way too sensitive.

I've told dragoons they should actually apply chaos thrust, told them they shouldn't spam Jumps like GcD
Told a summoner they shouldn't use a titan pet
Told a white mage they have a regen to make healing easier for themself.
Told a bard they have Dots

All of them mostly give the same response, something along the lines of the games not fun when being told what to do
You can try and give advice and hope they want to listen but just, the second they get defensive drop it and let them continue what they were doing.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Yes, but the person didnt ask either, which is all that I'm arguing about: Advice should be given in a polite, friendly and constructive way (personally, I try to present it lightly or as some form of I-message - "I found it very useful to do X, maybe you want to try it too?"), but if someone is doing something wrong and is training the wrong (brain) muscles right now, I dont think it requires asking for permission to correct that.

If the OP would have been "Hey, can we all make sure we give advice without being condescending?" I would have agreed with them in a heartbeat. But thats not what the OP was about. The OP was about "Before you give any advice, ask if you're allowed to". And thats what I dont agree with. As long as your advice is brought for in a polite manner, I consider that question a waste of everyones time, as long as the whole thing is only about something quick like "Please, use skil X instead of skill Y" or "Try to keep your buff up all the time!" or basically just repeating what the tooltip of the skill says - a tooltip that the person in question should have read before entering the dungeon.
The only time asking for permission is warranted in my book is if someone needs a longer explantion - in that case that question is not only for him but for the whole party to answer ("Would you mind waiting?")

Advice should always be given in a polite manner, so that it can (and should) be recived as constructive feedback and not as a personal attack.
But we dont need to walk on eggshells here - we just need to be polite in the way we interact with others. That includes how we phrase advice, but for me it also includes knowing your basics once you've got your jobstone.

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Yeah your example I agree with after reading and understanding your view. Hope that didn't cause stress before that. I know debates can get heated.

Yes I understand, the thread literally is “ How to give advices “ so I was talking about the way people criticise player in not constructive way but in a diminishing one.Some players really help the community but other are just insulting. I give suggestion to people only if I see are doing gigantic errors and they are totally far from understanding how the class work like Ice mages, SMN with no dot, Sams or Rdms with no aoe but I shut up for if I see a BRD with no heavy shot or DRG with no heavy trust stuff like that.

Yes it’s essential to read your skills and practice with it, probably many players are not familiar with this kind of games and how it works.
Unfortunately there are really little instruments of improvement and comparison for low level players to improve and understand many things. I started as BLM back in the days and honestly I never used Fire II till early 50s because seemed useless compared to Fire III that I was spamming (ok feeling silly if I think of it) then I realised how aoe work better on 3+ mobs.
That’s because the requirements in overhall are really low, no DPS checks for examples and player can complete instances easly anyway so they probably think are doing well perfectly but they don’t realise if are missing something but that is how casual contents works.
Most of new player don’t use roles at all because seems useless, especially tanks or some players don’t understand the power of dots. But nobody force them too.
Often skills itself are not fully explained and some effects hidden, like nobody tell you lucid, refresh or tactician reduce enmity or that eye x eye can be spread stuff like that.
Anyway you may be right on the general point still nodoby needs to be surprised if player underperform at the begin

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Yes I understand, the thread literally is “ How to give advices “ so I was talking about the way people criticise player in not constructive way but in a diminishing one.Some players really help the community but other are just insulting. I give suggestion to people only if I see are doing gigantic errors and they are totally far from understanding how the class work like Ice mages, SMN with no dot, Sams or Rdms with no aoe but I shut up for if I see a BRD with no heavy shot or DRG with no heavy trust stuff like that.

Yes it’s essential to read your skills and practice with it, probably many players are not familiar with this kind of games and how it works.
Unfortunately there are really little instruments of improvement and comparison for low level players to improve and understand many things. I started as BLM back in the days and honestly I never used Fire II till early 50s because seemed useless compared to Fire III that I was spamming (ok feeling silly if I think of it) then I realised how aoe work better on 3+ mobs.
That’s because the requirements in overhall are really low, no DPS checks for examples and player can complete instances easly anyway so they probably think are doing well perfectly but they don’t realise if are missing something but that is how casual contents works.
Most of new player don’t use roles at all because seems useless, especially tanks or some players don’t understand the power of dots. But nobody force them too.
Often skills itself are not fully explained and some effects hidden, like nobody tell you lucid, refresh or tactician reduce enmity or that eye x eye can be spread stuff like that.
Anyway you may be right on the general point still nodoby needs to be surprised if player underperform at the begin

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And that bolded part is exactly why we, as longterm players, need to give advice and feedback to a new person or even just to someone whos new to the job. And yes, as long as that advice is phrased politely, even without asking for permission first.

I dont think anyone is surprised about players underoperforming within the first few dungeons and no one has an issue with that, as long as they see the person really trying their best.
However... in light of the OP... Thunder IV is the level 64 BLM-skill. Thats way, way past being a new player or new to the job. Its way past the point where someone learns the concept of AoE vs. ST-damage and what to use when.
Personally, my BLM-hotbars are set up with a AoE-section and a ST-section. Each time I get a new skill, I read the tooltip and stick it either to the AoEs or the ST-spells.

And as I mentioned earlier already: what you're practising in dungeons goes to your muscle memory, so that one day you'll be able to play your job half asleep. Whats the point of letting someone learn and parctise something that you know is wrong in a dungeon? I had a bard in Haukke NM once, who wouldnt use DoTs and I kept asking for them, even though the whole run wouldnt have taken much longer without them. But the reason I kept asking for them and reminding him and telling him how important DoTs are is that I main bard as dps and know that the whole core-mechanic of bard - the songs - depend on your DoTs. So you better get used to keeping them all the time and learn how to do that from the start.

You're also making the good point of people not realising that they might be doing something wrong - which again supports giving polite advice, instead of asking for permission, seeing how that permission can denied, because someone is convinced they already know it all.
...and seeing how a question like "Hey, I see you're doing something wrong - might if I tell you how to do it right?" would hurt the feelings of every sensitive little snowflake out there already aswell (because you're telling them they're doing something wrong - even by offering to give advice, you're at least implying that), I really dont see the point of it.

Be polite, be friendly - but give advice when its needed! The game doesnt do it - its up to us.

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Originally Posted by ko_

Yeah your example I agree with after reading and understanding your view. Hope that didn't cause stress before that. I know debates can get heated.

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No harm done! ;D
I know that my posts on this matter can come off as a little harsh in tone, but thats mainly because I try to make them as clear as possible. As I said in my first post here... touchy subject. And I would like to avoid this getting heated, by sticking to a neutral tone myself - even if that seems harsh at times! Nothing personal, just trying to get my points across as clear as possible - so I apologise if I cam of rude, that wasnt my intention! :)

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Originally Posted by Angus

Warning: I'm venting and this has been said before, but it bares repeating.

So on Friday I'm doing a simple Duty Finder dungeon run. I'm blm, not the best, but I'm learning my rotation. I can get Flare up pretty fast. I tend to use the same basic rotation on both single and group targets. Yes, I should work on that.

Anyways, things are going well and we're all running through it pretty quickly, when someone has a fit that I'm using Thunder 4 on a single target. They then proceed to say "let me school you on blm". This ticked me off beyond compare. A few runs down the line and they post the basic blm rotation.

I get it, I need to work on things, but I am getting better. If this this person had been watching, they'd have seen I was doing most of the rotation. Also, stuff happens, sometimes I lose my place in the rotation due to fight dynamics.

The point? If you want to give advice, ask the other play if they want it. This person's attitude threw my whole game off the rest of the run. I've been in parties where players asked others if they'd like a few tips. Those parties were some of the best I've been in. People start talking and sharing and we have great times. This is why I haven't left Final Fantasy.

Thanks for listening, hope some of you understand.

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There's a good way and a bad way to give advice, your encounter with the teammate would fall under bad way.

That being said advice should not be given only if the player accepts to getting it. That's just silly. Let them say their advice, and you take it as you see fit. Either you'll take the advice or you won't.

"let me school you on blm" may make me want to go ice mage at that rate. But some people do it to feed their own egos. let them and move on. You'll learn your class in time. Not everyone starts off perfect, nor does everyone play perfectly 100% of the time. Just take a deep breath and carry on. :3

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

But he has the opportunity right now to get advice that isn't rude. Just needs to ask.

That would be a positive result of this whole situation. Instead it's just a post attacking someone.

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I am actively looking into improving my rotation. I've checked out the DPS forums here and on Reddit. I am upset about the situation, not attacking the player. I could name and shame, but that's a BS move.

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Originally Posted by Reylinn

I'm gonna come off as a jerk here but so be it.
A: You know there's a difference between a multi target rotation and single target rotation and
B: You clearly know where the forums are.
You're in the wrong for not having done any research at all to establish even the most basic of rotations in a dungeon. The guy shouldn't have to tell you at all not to use or use a skill, you should, out of courtesy know the bare minimum of using your MT versus ST skills. You may be levelling but you're at least past 50 and you haven't figured out a bare minimum MT rotation? On a BLM? 100% the guy giving you unsolicited advice was certainly tired of dragging you through said dungeon and that likely justifiably colored his/her tone. No one expects raid tier dps in dungeons, but sweet ginger deity of your choosing, you're being rude just showing up like that.

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There was no dragging going on. We were flying through very quickly.

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Originally Posted by Odstarva

Just as I don't care to play with someone who's "good" but has a horrid, toxic attitude, I'd likewise not want to play with someone who's "bad" just because they are polite and kind. That being said, if I had to pick? I'd pick the "bad" player.

However, I'm only human however and even I have my pet peeves. When a player does something wrong, I'm always reluctant to give pointers because either A) they'll listen, thank me, and try something different (rare occurrence), B) get angry, spew anger and make the rest of the run even harder or C) ignore chat completely (my personal favorite).


I do try to be polite about it, because I know I wouldn't like it if someone yelled at me what I should or shouldn't do (and at that point, I wouldn't care either). So while I understand your frustration OP, and personally sympathize, I also think you should practice your rotations for your own sake. Black mage isn't the easiest job, but it's far from being the most difficult either - and being a job that offers little to no utility, you really need to learn how to push your damage to that next level.

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You're right, and I mean that (not sarcasm). I am working to up my game and I do take pride in being a blm.

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Originally Posted by Angus

You're right, and I mean that (not sarcasm). I am working to up my game and I do take pride in being a blm.

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Taking pride for being a BLM lmao

Most of people don’t like them because have 0 buff for the party and are lazy to dodge :p
Most of pugs or statics exclude them from the search me included xD

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Originally Posted by Vidu

And that bolded part is exactly why we, as longterm players, need to give advice and feedback to a new person or even just to someone whos new to the job. And yes, as long as that advice is phrased politely, even without asking for permission first.

I dont think anyone is surprised about players underoperforming within the first few dungeons and no one has an issue with that, as long as they see the person really trying their best.
However... in light of the OP... Thunder IV is the level 64 BLM-skill. Thats way, way past being a new player or new to the job. Its way past the point where someone learns the concept of AoE vs. ST-damage and what to use when.
Personally, my BLM-hotbars are set up with a AoE-section and a ST-section. Each time I get a new skill, I read the tooltip and stick it either to the AoEs or the ST-spells.

And as I mentioned earlier already: what you're practising in dungeons goes to your muscle memory, so that one day you'll be able to play your job half asleep. Whats the point of letting someone learn and parctise something that you know is wrong in a dungeon? I had a bard in Haukke NM once, who wouldnt use DoTs and I kept asking for them, even though the whole run wouldnt have taken much longer without them. But the reason I kept asking for them and reminding him and telling him how important DoTs are is that I main bard as dps and know that the whole core-mechanic of bard - the songs - depend on your DoTs. So you better get used to keeping them all the time and learn how to do that from the start.

You're also making the good point of people not realising that they might be doing something wrong - which again supports giving polite advice, instead of asking for permission, seeing how that permission can denied, because someone is convinced they already know it all.
...and seeing how a question like "Hey, I see you're doing something wrong - might if I tell you how to do it right?" would hurt the feelings of every sensitive little snowflake out there already aswell (because you're telling them they're doing something wrong - even by offering to give advice, you're at least implying that), I really dont see the point of it.

Be polite, be friendly - but give advice when its needed! The game doesnt do it - its up to us.



No harm done! ;D
I know that my posts on this matter can come off as a little harsh in tone, but thats mainly because I try to make them as clear as possible. As I said in my first post here... touchy subject. And I would like to avoid this getting heated, by sticking to a neutral tone myself - even if that seems harsh at times! Nothing personal, just trying to get my points across as clear as possible - so I apologise if I cam of rude, that wasnt my intention! :)

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Is that the big grin of riches? It's been so long. ;D

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Originally Posted by ko_

Is that the big grin of riches? It's been so long. ;D

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...the way you phrased THAT did some harm now! ...I'm feeling old all of sudden... excuse me, while I'll try to convert my blm-staff into a walking cane...

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Taking pride for being a BLM lmao

Most of people don’t like them because have 0 buff for the party and are lazy to dodge :p
Most of pugs or statics exclude them from the search me included xD

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...Isn't excluding a certain class that people play due to personal bias also being sort of toxic towards the community at large and just as bad as someone being rude while giving advice...?

I'm stunned that people are still doing this. You can't tell someone to stop being rude with giving advice and then ostracize people within your community. It kind of makes people do a full-stop, 90's record scratch head tilt at you.

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Originally Posted by JohnSeal

Taking pride for being a BLM lmao

Most of people don’t like them because have 0 buff for the party and are lazy to dodge :p
Most of pugs or statics exclude them from the search me included xD

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Why would you trash that player for enjoying a job? So you personally think it brings nothing to your groups. Awesome. You are so leet I'm in awe of your greatness.

What exactly did you get out of trashing that player and his\her chosen job on a forum?

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

Why would you trash that player for enjoying a job? So you personally think it brings nothing to your groups. Awesome. You are so leet I'm in awe of your greatness.

What exactly did you get out of trashing that player and his\her chosen job on a forum?

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OMG sorry sorry I didn’t mean to offend, I apologies to him ! I really was just jocking around lol like sounded funny as he said it xD I find BLM fun to play in dangeoun, it’s like everything flashing and flaming (: was my first class at the begin and also I think the job quests are the really good.

No ostracism of any kind promise, everyone need to find the class that much more their personality and inclination.

It’s not the most popular class but doesn’t matter


Apologies again if it sounded offensive or insulting!

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

...Isn't excluding a certain class that people play due to personal bias also being sort of toxic towards the community at large and just as bad as someone being rude while giving advice...?

I'm stunned that people are still doing this. You can't tell someone to stop being rude with giving advice and then ostracize people within your community. It kind of makes people do a full-stop, 90's record scratch head tilt at you.

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Excluding jobs based on what they can contribute to your group with respect to other choices is not and never will be toxic it's done for even reasonably competitive or serious content. If you have an issue with it, take it up with whoever is in charge of balancing classes, not other players.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

Excluding jobs based on what they can contribute to your group with respect to other choices is not and never will be toxic it's done for even reasonably competitive or serious content. If you have an issue with it, take it up with whoever is in charge of balancing classes, not other players.

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But this thread is not the place to bring that up, no one here is discussing job balance, nothing wrong with someone enjoying BLM.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

But this thread is not the place to bring that up, no one here is discussing job balance, nothing wrong with someone enjoying BLM.

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I never suggested otherwise. I responded to what another poster said. I suggest you do the same, rather than responding to things that weren't said.