Heaven on High: That's it?

Did you clear it to floor 100?
I guess not.
Are you in need of attention?
It was patch day yesterday, do the content before making a fuss.

Based on the history of what has been released for FFXIV, and what the developers said they would release, it takes a level of wishful thinking to think it would be anything more. The time to complain about the content being too much like PotD would have been when they said it was going to be like PotD. What one shouldn't do is remain silent when the devs say it is going to be PotD for Stormblood, and then when you get exactly that, start complaining. It's not foolish to expect high quality from Square, but it is foolish to expect something that they never brought up. If they had said that this was going to be different/unique, and not a copy of PotD, then you would have a point.

My take on it: we got exactly what they said we would get.
At no point have they given us any grounds to believe HoH would be something entirely different.
They told us it would be Stormbloods variation of PotD, even sharing the overarching title (Deep Dungeon) and thats what it is.
If anyone expected anything different they've been setting themselves up for disappointment.

As for the 'the devs don't do anything new anymore' rhetoric; they actually do. They just didn't with HoH. Eureka and Fashion Report, wether one personally enjoys them or not, are still new content with more things teased/confirmed to come; and ignoring their existence based on personal dislike just seems dishonest to me.
But again, just my take on it.

Off topic, but:

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Originally Posted by Ghastly

I still can't believe they can't just scrap the egi system and do a quick rework to the smn rotation let us summon the primals like this......just add them to the bahamut rotation. We don't even want different roles for them, we just want to summon them and see their unique special finishers.
Yoshida please hear us.....Summoner is such an important job in FF.

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Yeah, you may want to try and only speak for yourself, because I very much disagree with this.
While I agree that Summoner needs a rework (and an upgrade to the egis), this 'solution' would essentially kill the job entirely for me. When I think of Summoners I think of mages that pick the right summons at the right time; making Summoner just another rotational DPS feels like it would be just as much of a giant middlefinger to Summoner 'tradition' as what we got right now.
I very much do want my Summons to do different things and I certainly don't want to see summons reduced to just pretty graphics again. In fact, I'm very disappointed how Demi-Bahamut turned out to be nothing more then another (extra clunky) DWT.
If they ever fix summoner I sure hope they do so through increased interaction with the egis as pets. And maybe more distinct roles for them.

I do feel that the new pomanders make this more fun than the old ones. So I do like HoH.

But there are two problems (one major for me) that are really hindering the enjoyment.

1. Only 30 floors for casuals. I know that the run from 51+ for those that wanted to reach 200 was too much but they simply could have opened that at 101 with fixed groups and be done with it. But if you ran this solo you could have 100 floors to farm stuff and get better. Now after 30 floors its already over and I already grew a bit tired about the three bosses which are also quite easy.

2. DCs...really..after all the feedback it just feels like nothing changed. I had around 25 DCs yesterday and it was not my own internet at fault. (Its different if its mine because I cant log back in it instantly) I was also not the only one that had them. The amount of DCs got worse for me since the 4.2 patch (I am on chaos) which even made PotD solo impossible for me..now I am just really angry that I will never be able to even try to get it done solo..

So I will farm this for the potsherds and maybe somewhere down the line I will try to run to 100 with an ingame friend but otherwise the DCs are just taking out all the fun.

(Also funny how many bugs this already has..)

In the end I do like the content itself but feel disappointed that nothing changed to help people that get DCs that are not their fault..(also why do we need another extra potion there? Just another item slot needed to store them..)

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I don't get what ppl expect sometimes, they told us it would be a new deep dungeon of which PotD is the foundation and ppl get mad it was like that.....oh well.

Maybe ppl have not experienced Devs PR talks or what, but by now I know that if there's an easy way to do something it'll probably that way and not the mysterious one

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A foundation is the ground that you built on and they did built on it a bit...but most of the player feedback was ignored. From the way that we can access the higher floors, from more different things to do inside (like puzzle rooms), to having a way to save the run even with a DC if you are solo..so a few smaller things changed, yet nothing big was added and it suffers from the same problem like PotD..and its smaller for casual players too with a imo way shorter and less important story..so again, I do enjoy the gameplay itself and the pomanders are more fun than the PotD ones but in the end its just mostly PotD 2.0.


Edit: Some people really need to check their posts a bit...that huge amount of passive-aggressive posting in nearly every topic is honestly not a good way to communicate..especially when they at the same time point out that posting can hurt someone yet do it themselves more than enough..

And what about the fact that you need to reach the 50th floor of the PoTD to have access to HoH ? That's so stupid...

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Originally Posted by Alleo

A foundation is the ground that you built on and they did built on it a bit...but most of the player feedback was ignored. From the way that we can access the higher floors, from more different things to do inside (like puzzle rooms), to having a way to save the run even with a DC if you are solo..so a few smaller things changed, yet nothing big was added and it suffers from the same problem like PotD..and its smaller for casual players too with a imo way shorter and less important story..so again, I do enjoy the gameplay itself and the pomanders are more fun than the PotD ones but in the end its just mostly PotD 2.0.

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But there was no hint that they would change anything, some ppl expected it to be something completely different from PotD and that is beign delusional.
What PotD was, IS what deep dungeons are going to be, they added new toys and a new type of trap room, but that's it and honestly I wasn't expecting anything more because they didn't thought they were going to. It was the new set of deep dungeon and as such ppl should've expected PotD with a new coat of paint.

Now the DC problem is however a good criticism since it's still a problem to the solo experience.

Though I will say this, the story is actually meatier than Potd, because we had no real story about PotD itself nor how Nybeth actually crossed into Eorzea, we just had a somewhat ending to Edda's story, which wasn't really needed because Tam-tara HM sealed the deal and some grumble grumble life beyond death, but 0 backstory on the place itself, 0 connection to gelmorra, the place goes and goes with no real sense. Meanwhile the story you got here kinda explained to you retroactively what PotD really is and why you lose your powers in this place, not to mention the place is more consistent in his building structire too and they said there are some floor that are actually outside the tower too.
Personally everything is simply better, there's no point for making 100 floors of casual floors if only 10 of those are going to be relevant (let's be honest ppl spammed the 51-60 for exp) you don't need to spend 6 hours to get to the good floors either. It's hard to say this was worse

edit: Now I don't want to deny ppl that were complaining when HoH was announced, because if that's so then ppl are in their right imho

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Originally Posted by EdwinFade

The time to complain about the content being too much like PotD would have been when they said it was going to be like PotD.

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And then someone would have said the time to complain is when we have actually tried the content. Someone will always try to suppress feedback by bringing up its timing.

Dunno If I'm better, my wiew on the MMO content has become jaded after years on wow and their endless cuts on contents, kinda drained me of the joy of hype, it's perhaps why I can't really emphatize with some points anymore.

I mean ppl complained about wod cuts, but when wod was announced I already knew what they were going to cut in development. I something wonders if that's a good thing

I was hoping for a bit more creativity to set it apart from POTD a little bit. It's just the same thing again. After the first few minutes I felt like I had already done the content before since there were hardly any changes.

The game is starting to feel stale with the constant rehashing of the same formula.

Though I haven't run Heaven on High yet, I don't have any issues with what I've heard about it. It was said to be a Stormblood version of Palace of the Dead when it was first announced, and that seems to be exactly what it is. I happened to like PotD so I have no problem with that and was looking forward to running it. I made it to floor 160+ in Palace (in a party) and plan to do the challenge floors here as well.

I don't really complain about what the content is since I don't expect them to really change what is already here. I just hope they take feedback from this topic to make a future deep dungeon. Meaning we have what we have, lets hope they change things up for the next time.

My opinion on it is that the story was very lack luster. It felt short and rushed. 30 floors is not enough. I feel like they should have gone to 50 floors and fleshed out the story. I played POTD a lot back in the day to level and collect weapons. I doubt I will get a weapon from this dungeon. I can't put my finger on it but for some reason I don't care to run this one over and over again. It bores me to death. My main reason to keep doing it is because of the hair. The exp also seems slow. Maybe it is because I'm not excited to run it.

Part of my issue with HoH is very personal - I'm just not feeling the aesthetics. Even on higher floors it feels... eh. PotD's creepy atmosphere, heck we had hanging bodies around, and then the surreal yet so beautiful 150+ floors just felt more impactful. I will still run it for the goodies of course but I wish they added more story, or had NPCs we actually knew about, or wrap some loose ends. Hologram tree felt out of the blue. Maybe it was just me being all - wait that's it? :l
I hope for something more.
PotD had dead NPC easter eggs that always felt nice to encounter. Here we have lil helpers ...but why? Who and what are they and why are they helping? Did I miss some dialogue explaining them? I don't know, it feels like content with no soul. A lot of content after SB feels like that to me.
Beyond that, yes it was said it will be like PotD and I had no expectations beyond that. I'm not salty over it, I just wish a bit more story and grabby aesthetics.

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Originally Posted by MuseTraveller

SNIP.....Hologram tree felt out of the blue. Maybe it was just me being all - wait thaI don't know, it feels like content with no soul. A lot of content after SB feels like that to me.
Beyond that, yes it was said it will be like PotD and I had no expectations beyond that. I'm not salty over it, I just wish a bit more story and grabby aesthetics.

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Yes that describes how I feel about it. It feels very slapped together. It doesnt feel very fleshed out. Sadly we are not getting any addition to it.

Haven't run it yet but from the second hand accounts I have and the patch notes I read...it seems what I expected. I expected a new PoD with higher levels and different rewards with possibly a new mechanic or two thrown in. I seem to have gotten a new PoD for higher levels with different rewards and a new mechanic or two.

I mean I don't get the disappointment here. We all knew this was just a sequel, a follow up to what was clearly and obviously the single most popular side content in HW. In my circle of friends none of us expected any great changes to come from this particular formula. We never thought it was included in any of the statements about trying something new because in our eyes it was always just going to be PoD 2: Doman Boogaloo.

So for those who were expecting something can I ask why?

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

Haven't run it yet but from the second hand accounts I have and the patch notes I read...it seems what I expected. I expected a new PoD with higher levels and different rewards with possibly a new mechanic or two thrown in. I seem to have gotten a new PoD for higher levels with different rewards and a new mechanic or two.

I mean I don't get the disappointment here. We all knew this was just a sequel, a follow up to what was clearly and obviously the single most popular side content in HW. In my circle of friends none of us expected any great changes to come from this particular formula. We never thought it was included in any of the statements about trying something new because in our eyes it was always just going to be PoD 2: Doman Boogaloo.

So for those who were expecting something can I ask why?

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For me personally (can't speak for anyone else here), I just hope for it. When SE teased it with footage we saw the new wide-open floor, magicite, new pomanders, and not much else. It's easy to see how people could mistake that as an appetizer for something bigger and better, especially if they're craving a different experience instead of more of the same. That's not to say HoH is bad... I appreciate them condensing the number of floors, and the addition of magicite and the new pomanders is welcome. But it feels like a version 1.1 instead of 2.0.

I knew we'd just be getting a lightly modified version of what we saw with PotD since we haven't gotten anything truly new since HW. SB has been all about repetition and playing it safe, which is disappointing as a long-time player.

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Originally Posted by Hestzhyen

I knew we'd just be getting a lightly modified version of what we saw with PotD since we haven't gotten anything truly new since HW. SB has been all about repetition and playing it safe, which is disappointing as a long-time player.

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This is something that bothers me. With Heavensward, and especially ARR you could appreciate a conservative approach. The former was their first expansion; the latter a complete relaunch of the entire game. By now, that good well from the playerbase has began to wane. People are getting tired of the same stale formulas. What I find particularly irksome is how Stormblood essentially became "make everything easier." Doing so only worsened the lack of longevity already present. While I am not bored yet, it's certainly disconcerting for future expansions if all we're going to see is Garlemald with a purple coat of paint instead of red or blue.

I don't think anyone was expecting them to reinvent the wheel, but they didn't change the formula except in bad ways. The casual experience is just bad. It's 3 floors, which on the first time you can beat in fifteen minutes each while looking for all the chests. The story is nowhere near as cool as Edda's was, the last boss is insultingly easy (and I don't complain stuff is too easy very often), and to top it all, the "summon a primal" thing lets you kill off an entire floor. You can literally just walk through and pick up the shinies. It feels like the meat is in the challenge floors, but they kept the "fixed party" requirement, which I don't think anyone liked that much. So if you are solo/casual, your whole experience now is probably going to be grinding 21-30 for +10/10 then trading it in for a grip to repeat.

The interior just looks like reused doma castle assets. It doesn't really change at all during the casual experience, where you went through different environments every 10 levels in potd. The open floors are pointless; they don't really add anything to gameplay, since its still the same kill to unlock and loot chests as the later levels. You have so many tools now to mitigate encounters and death I wonder how on earth they can make the challenge levels a challenge.

I mean, there's some really odd design choices here. I don't think people were complaining POTD was hard at all, from casual to challenge people, save for soloists. But it feels like they balanced everything around giving soloists a chance.

I'm personally a bit upset that they added new Triple Triad cards to the random loot bags.

I feel like that is not really the place to put them.

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Originally Posted by Mixt

I'm personally a bit upset that they added new Triple Triad cards to the random loot bags.

I feel like that is not really the place to put them.

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I gotta agree. I already made my peace with old gear being available but with the drop weights for the bags I don't think it was a good idea to put the cards in there.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

What did you really expect?

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What I expected was a straight up reskin of PotD. What I hoped for was a more expanded system; Multiple ways to clear a floor, Larger maps with more varied room shapes, better procedural generation. So in the end, we have gotten more than what I expected but not quite what I hoped for which has been par for the course in this game. I'm not shocked or surprised with what we got nor am I disappointed, my OP was an honest question phrased in a challenge sort of way to illicit some player feedback.

At the time of my OP there was not any threads started with HoH as the subject (since its release) there were only patch notes, which are not usually a full representation of the content or how it feels, and when I logged into the game to try it for myself I guess it had been taken down for maintenance already. I have gained a bit of valuable insight to HoH because of this post, minus the trolls, that has helped a bit. Sounds like the Magicite system is the "FC summoning" idea they threw out there back in a 1.18 dev letter, not quite what I was hoping for yet again but at least its a full on summon. Now, if only they could make new skins for the summoner job but thats a whole different thread.

All in all I'm ok with what we got, I will be using the heck out of this to level my other jobs and might even shoot for that floor 100. Hope that answers your question! :)

I just think with it released later they could have at least added more floors. We know they do not like to steer clear from the same formula. So with Eureka also being pushed back i expect the same results, not anything different at all.
Yes adding content is far more work then people give credit for but at the same token reusing same assets and doing absolutely nothing different leaves people wondering...
I know people who have come back from the game from almost a year not playing and they are tired of ffxiv again so yes they need new direction and not be afraid to try something different but i do not think it will happen.
Only good thing content wise that sounds like it will be good is the 8 man encounter from the Monster World Crossover whenever that comes

I don't understand how ppl didn't expect them on cutting floors once ppl started complaining that going back to floors 150+ was an hassle.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

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Did you ignore HyoMin's response regarding this previously? Yoshida outright said their data showed the majority of people preferred floors 180-200, i.e., they fancied a more challenging experience. Therefore, everything on the casual side was streamlined to allow people access to the perceived fun aspect quicker. Floors 1-30 are essentially a leveling alternative and not intended for much else. Perhaps the only two potential issues is requiring a fixed party and not being able to continue with say, three people, if the fourth bails unexpectedly.

That all said, you complain constantly about how the game can't get any harder, or that Shinryu, Tsukiyomi, Ridorado, Rabnastre and etc are all too difficult. Well, the devs listened. You now have something utterly mindless that may take more effort to fail than succeed. That's what happens when you keep complaining everything is hard. It gets insulting easy.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

What did you really expect?



Ever heard about this thing called RNG?

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Yep. Doesn't mean it doesn't suck.

Nothing like bringing back 4 platinum sacks and getting a pot of dye, a minor minion and 2 rank 5 materia after working hard to clear the high floors... While you watch your party member pull a fiend weapon worth 5 million gil.

RNG has always hated me in everything I've played. The last several minions that dropped in dungeons I rolled two 2 and a 6 on. It just sucks that I cleared the hard stuff and my reward is the same crap I got doing the casual content.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

But there was no hint that they would change anything, some ppl expected it to be something completely different from PotD and that is beign delusional.
What PotD was, IS what deep dungeons are going to be, they added new toys and a new type of trap room, but that's it and honestly I wasn't expecting anything more because they didn't thought they were going to. It was the new set of deep dungeon and as such ppl should've expected PotD with a new coat of paint.

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Well but I am quite sure that people also would be quite mad if they left all the future Eureka additions just like the first one. And I am quite sure that a lot of people know that it would be mostly the same but maybe still hoped for a few more changes. Because there had been quite the feedback for it. And having more variety inside the rooms would not change the foundation of it too.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I don't understand how ppl didn't expect them on cutting floors once ppl started complaining that going back to floors 150+ was an hassle.

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I do believe that not everyone thought that they would cut it in half and make only 30 out of 100 for casuals. Honestly after getting to 81 with randoms today I believe that a 50/50 split would have been better. More floors for casuals and yet still less floors as PotD. And at the same time people that wanted a challenge only needed to start at 51 and thus only have 50 floors too. Because I found nothing until floor 70 to be really that hard in a group. And the bosses until 80 (since I only managed to beat it till there) are not that hard either. I honestly found a lot of bosses from PotD <100 harder then any including 80.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Did you ignore HyoMin's response regarding this previously? Yoshida outright said their data showed the majority of people preferred floors 180-200, i.e., they fancied a more challenging experience.

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It would take four people staticing four hours without a single wipe to get to those floors in the past. You absolutely need a traditional party setup. Those floors are purely for the challenge; they are useless for leveling aetherpool weapons, for leveling classes, for farming tomes. They are useful only if you want to farm chest drops and get completion party or solo, and the former is actively discouraged due to the difficulty of the floors and mimics being very potent. I really, really would like to see his data on that, because virtually every incentive for POTD has nothing to do with 180-200, and the incentives drop off completely with 101+.

You know, I think Yoshi must just quiz the JP equivalent of bluegarter or something whenever he wants data, because saying more people liked potd 180 is liek saying more people like savage than leveling roulette. And I don't really see anyone complainign it was too hard, since all the hard stuff was elective and didn't really give any better of the core rewards casuals used it for,. Only soloists did, and to be blunt it is impossible to balance for solo content in there.

I don't want casual content to get much harder. That doesn't mean it needs to get easier. I don't want to wake up some day and have to fight susano ex as the next story boss. I don't want to have to be locked into doing all roulettes as my healer because I'd wipe the party if I wanted to practice a dps im rusty with.The difficulty as is is pretty good, with 24 man mechanics being the limit of casual content. I usually push back because people say everything is so easy it must get harder, or that harder is needed. Usually its the raiders who don't understand how someone could find something like shin hard, because "they've seen it all before."

Kinda sucks that they once again wait til the middle of a expansion cycle to make another Deep Dungeon. In the end, majority of ppl will just use it for job leveling so they don't have to deal with crappy queue times. Like, had they made POTD for the first major patch after a new expansion launches it would be a good tool for leveling, but at this point, Stormblood has been out for over a year now and at this point me and others have their jobs at max level. So POTD doesn't really offer much cept maybe a forgetable mount and a somewhat cute minion and like the first POTD, weapon that you can upgrade to take out the dungeon with you that will be quickly outdated come the next major patch. Not sure SE knows what creativity means these days. I mean even the original Deep Dungeon in FFT was more interesting and was fun to explore. This patch basically just gives us another POTD with reskinned objectives and meh rewards and another means of leveling jobs that at this point, unless the players are new (cough Level Boosters cough*) most of the playerbase has had over a year to max their combat jobs. Just a little too late to make a difference.


Protip to Yoshi-P and the Dev Team: If you're gonna make new Deep Dungeons per expansion, launch them in the first major patch after a new expansion (ex: 2.1, 3.1, 4.1, etc) instead of waiting an entire year later and in midway into a expansion cycle to drop this crap onto the playerbase. Makes better sense and I'm not even a game or content designer, just a player. If a regular casual player like me can think of something this simple and you guys can't, that's very telling. Just saiyan.




/2 cents

HoH is about what I expected. I expected a PotD reskin since the developers seem to be allergic to trying new things. The changes that were made, I have a few mixed feelings:

+ The primal pomanders are super cool. I’m sad that we wiped before we could make good use of our Odin one, which is apparently pretty powerful.
+ The large 4x3 rooms are really cool.
+ I love the aesthetic, especially past Floor 41 when it starts to change.
+ Some of the new mobs that were implemented are not a joke. Maybe it’s because our aetherpool was relatively low, but it was refreshing to see that, with some, they would still one-shot careless tanks or DPS. :D Definitely made for a fun experience and hilarious moments in voice chat.
+ Less fluff floors before the challenge floors is always a plus.
+ Minions in the Accursed Hoard sacks are a plus, because some I could never get from their respective dungeons (looking at you, Shaggy Shoat!!), so I’m glad I have a different shot at them.
+ The hairstyle. :D
+ I don’t mind the new pomanders (Concealment is pretty cool, and so is Frailty), and having so many powerful ones allows for formulating a good strategy for making the last 10-20 floors less dangers, however...

- I miss my Rage Pomanders. :c
- I wish that the Petrification pomanders lasted a bit longer than 30 seconds.
- Please get rid of the damn fireworks in the loot sacks. 4/5 Gold sacks and they were damn fireworks!

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

It would take four people staticing four hours without a single wipe to get to those floors in the past.

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People also constantly complained that Floors 51-100 were an unnecessary snoozefest to get to Floor 101, and even then the challenge didn’t start until 151 at the minimum. That’s 100 more floors of easy content just to get to the challenge, which is what people wanted. They wanted less fluff, and SE delivered—now you can start at Floor 21 for Floor 100 parties, story mode is only 30 floors as opposed to 100, and there are just less floors overall (though I never had any issues with 100 floors past the story mode—my complaints lied only with Floors 51-100 being a prerequisite each time, since Floors 100-150 were easy enough to gather enough pomanders to last for 151-200). So, with regards to these things, the developers actually listened to some of the feedback players gave them. They may not have listened to all of it, but they still listened and at least implemented some.

I’ve only been to Floor 50 of HoH myself, but I’ve heard that now the more difficult mobs start at Floor 51+ 30 floors after you start; much better than Floor 151 (or Floor 181, more like it) after 100 (130) floors.

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You absolutely need a traditional party setup. Those floors are purely for the challenge; they are useless for leveling aetherpool weapons, for leveling classes, for farming tomes.

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Not absolutely, since people duo’d PotD. Duoing HoH is entirely possible, albeit you will want high aetherpool to serve as a cushion, and you will have to be more cautious. They also give aetherpool and tomes for people that would rather do something a bit less boring than spam HoH 21-30 over and over again a la PotD 51-60. Sure they aren’t “practical” for farming either, but you still get them, so it’s not like they aren’t without rewards. They also give experience every 10 floors, just like 101+ did for sub-level 60 jobs.

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They are useful only if you want to farm chest drops and get completion party or solo, and the former is actively discouraged due to the difficulty of the floors and mimics being very potent.

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The difficulty is to be expected and is part of the design, so it appears to be working just as intended. And you can only farm platinum sacks on Floors 61+, so if your goal is to farm goodies from the Platinum sacks, the only way is to go all the way, or at least to 61-70. Silver and Gold sacks don’t contain Platinum prizes.

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I really, really would like to see his data on that, because virtually every incentive for POTD has nothing to do with 180-200, and the incentives drop off completely with 101+.

You know, I think Yoshi must just quiz the JP equivalent of bluegarter or something whenever he wants data, because saying more people liked potd 180 is liek saying more people like savage than leveling roulette.

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I mean, the developers can see how many people run the higher floors, and see how many have the Floor 200 achievements, how many repeat the runs, and how many times they do so. They have myriads more data than a forum would. So unless you want to say that Yoshida was being disingenuous with his statement about Floors 181-200, your argument here holds no purpose other than to, once again, sling mud on something that doesn’t seem to fit your rhetoric.

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And I don't really see anyone complainign it was too hard, since all the hard stuff was elective and didn't really give any better of the core rewards casuals used it for,. Only soloists did, and to be blunt it is impossible to balance for solo content in there.

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Where was anyone saying that people complained Floor 200 runs of PotD were too hard? At most they said they were too tedious because of the 51-100/51-151 slog. Bourne’s comment was about how you constantly state that battle content in general in this game is too hard, and should always be easy, not that people were complaining about the difficulty of PotD.

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I don't want casual content to get much harder. That doesn't mean it needs to get easier. I don't want to wake up some day and have to fight susano ex as the next story boss. I don't want to have to be locked into doing all roulettes as my healer because I'd wipe the party if I wanted to practice a dps im rusty with.The difficulty as is is pretty good, with 24 man mechanics being the limit of casual content. I usually push back because people say everything is so easy it must get harder, or that harder is needed. Usually its the raiders who don't understand how someone could find something like shin hard, because "they've seen it all before."

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We know you don’t want it to get harder. But since having any sort of middle ground is also impossible when you constantly argue in extremes, it seems that you’ll have to just deal with HoH story floors (which is considered casual content) being on the easy extreme. When you don’t allow for any middle ground, you either have one side or the other.

Everything in this game is getting progressively easier. Mechanics in early dungeons can be blatantly ignored, which teach bad habits for later dungeons and 8-man trials. Aside from the fact that they’re nerfed by a combination of developer nerfs, overgearing, and nerfs that take place when a new expansion is released (e.g., all HW dungeons were nerfed when SB released). But even barring all of those, the mechanics aren’t punishing enough save for a few instances to mandate that people actually pay attention to them and perform them successfully. And, in those few instances, levels of conditioning that taught them “I can cheese/ignore this, no biggie” cause them to get mad when something like Nidhogg, Shinryu, or Tsukuyomi suddenly appear and cause them to realize “RAWR I can’t actually cheese/ignore this”.

Asking for more difficult 4-man content, or for, heaven forbid, mechanics to actually matter in things like dungeons or even normal mode trials, especially ones at max level doesn’t mean that things need to be “Savage-level”. I really hope you learn to eventually stop arguing in such extremes. Mechanics can still have an impact in content that is less difficult than Savage.

And if you’re so concerned about wiping a dungeon party on a DPS job, then the solution is simple: practice and practice frequently. Harder content doesn’t stop you from doing that.

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Usually its the raiders who don't understand how someone could find something like shin hard, because "they've seen it all before."

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I don’t know how many times I can say it, but almost all of Shinryu’s mechanics you see in story mode have all been seen in story mode content before. Tidal Wave? Leviathan. Earthen Fury? Titan. Hellfire? Ifrit. Judgment Bolt? Ramuh. Diamond Dust? Shiva. The only one you can make a semblance of an argument for is Ahk Morn, which, while present in Final Steps of Faith, it borrows from T13 in the way you handle it (immunity or tanks share).

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

It would take four people staticing four hours without a single wipe to get to those floors in the past. You absolutely need a traditional party setup. Those floors are purely for the challenge; they are useless for leveling aetherpool weapons, for leveling classes, for farming tomes. They are useful only if you want to farm chest drops and get completion party or solo, and the former is actively discouraged due to the difficulty of the floors and mimics being very potent. I really, really would like to see his data on that, because virtually every incentive for POTD has nothing to do with 180-200, and the incentives drop off completely with 101+.

You know, I think Yoshi must just quiz the JP equivalent of bluegarter or something whenever he wants data, because saying more people liked potd 180 is liek saying more people like savage than leveling roulette. And I don't really see anyone complainign it was too hard, since all the hard stuff was elective and didn't really give any better of the core rewards casuals used it for,. Only soloists did, and to be blunt it is impossible to balance for solo content in there.

I don't want casual content to get much harder. That doesn't mean it needs to get easier. I don't want to wake up some day and have to fight susano ex as the next story boss. I don't want to have to be locked into doing all roulettes as my healer because I'd wipe the party if I wanted to practice a dps im rusty with.The difficulty as is is pretty good, with 24 man mechanics being the limit of casual content. I usually push back because people say everything is so easy it must get harder, or that harder is needed. Usually its the raiders who don't understand how someone could find something like shin hard, because "they've seen it all before."

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Actually, you didn't. Plenty of people did triple DPS and healer. Some gambled without a healer and did double tank or some other variation. Was it safer with a traditional party setup? Of course. Likewise, the higher floors aren't that bad once you have a decent aetherpool. Having done up to floor 50 with only 35/24, we were only just beginning to struggle. Granted, we had to pull one or two mobs only and I stayed in tank stance. Now imagine those floors with 99/99.

Or just maybe, maybe not everyone wants something utterly brain dead like much of casual content has become. Bear in mind, just because numerous 200 runs resulted in failure doesn't mean the players disliked it. The primary complain about 200 runs with the slog it took blitzing through floors 51-120ish.

Except casual isn't hard. Shinryu and Tsukiyomi are not difficult, they simply demand you pay attention. Asking they become easier results in stuff like 1-30 HoH because there simply isn't anywhere else to go. No one is saying Susano EX should replace his story mode equivalent, but that he shouldn't be a cakewalk either. Once again, you argues in extremes. All people want is something that requires more than pressing 1-2-3. Hence why higher floors of PotD were more popular. Instead of standing in Kefka's fake Blizzard because I couldn't be bothered to care about a vul stack that does nothing, I'm outright disengaging because those Gorilla slaps hurt. I actually feel like a tank being forced into tank stance and rotating CDs despite pulling only a couple things compared to pulling entire rooms.

You assume the raiders don't understand because you ignore counterpoints. I have cited The Vault as a good dungeon example numerous times yet you continuously prattle on about "omg savage dungeons!!!" Is The Vault Savage tier? I certainly hope not.

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Originally Posted by Usho

Protip to Yoshi-P and the Dev Team: If you're gonna make new Deep Dungeons per expansion, launch them in the first major patch after a new expansion (ex: 2.1, 3.1, 4.1, etc) instead of waiting an entire year later and in midway into a expansion cycle to drop this crap onto the playerbase. Makes better sense and I'm not even a game or content designer, just a player. If a regular casual player like me can think of something this simple and you guys can't, that's very telling. Just saiyan.

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While I agree, let's be honest here. How often are you queuing for those dungeons if HoH released in 4.0? They waited a year so people wouldn't exclusively use HoH as their leveling source and abandon everything else.

They should replace the fireworks with silver allagan pieces. It'd still be vendor trash but at least it'd be vendor trash worth 500 gil rather than a single gil...

I legit didn't see the floor 30 boss die last night. It just sort of exploded...

Also casuals wanting more casual floors? Why? All you are gonna run is 21-30 just like all you ran for PotD was 51-60.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

My biggest issue is that 99% of the items you get from bags is crappy materia and firewoks. SE never learns.

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I'd rather get Materia V; at least people want to buy those. Getting Magicked Prisms is the equivalent of the game devs spitting in my face.

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

It's a bit too easy if you ask me, copious amounts of magicite/petrifaction pomander significantly lower the risk of wiping. We would use a fortune + petrifaction or magicite and gain more than we used most of the time.

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That's not terribly different from what you can do with the manticore pomanders in Palace.

Fireworks were annoying in Eureka but it was one thing when you got like 500 chests a run if you did your full hour and a half. Here, you come out of PotD2.0 with 3 sacks and all 3 are fireworks and just. Yes, it's how PotD worked, and I'm annoyed with that, too. Esp as there are crafting items I want in here that are even harder to get than from Aqua/Canals because there's 1,000,000 other random items mixed on (so many falconers shirts).

The story was random, out of nowhere, and seemed to be very short/sudden for all of the potential implications. PotD drew upon an established story and had 100 floors to carry it through. This introduced something new and crammed it all into 30.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Did you ignore HyoMin's response regarding this previously? Yoshida outright said their data showed the majority of people preferred floors 180-200, i.e., they fancied a more challenging experience.

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I'm sorry, I'm calling bullshit on this. If he only asked those who had actually gotten here, then yes, of course it's going to look like players prefer it. I want to see his numbers and just what part of the population was queried.

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Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn

The story was random, out of nowhere, and seemed to be very short/sudden for all of the potential implications. PotD drew upon an established story and had 100 floors to carry it through. This introduced something new and crammed it all into 30.

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Yeah, it was too short to really get going, and then it ended and threw in some Final Fantasy III references at the end that felt really abruptly placed.

Think Heaven on High is real let down. Here think your going to get good item finally from bag just to get vi material. Wish they drop those and give some glamour items or something can use.

I think it'd be nice if the next Deep Dungeon had alternating bosses, like the Hidden Canals. Doing 21 - 30 repeatedly for levels has me bored of Discount Titan.

Guys, If you say that there less casual content I want you to think about this.

21-30 takes about 15 mins and now you can PF crossworld for HoH too.

I say now it's much easier getting to the fixed floor than before thanks to the fact that you must not waste 1 hour in pointless floors. And since 31-50 is still casual enough I'd say it's better than before for not static ppl to do apex.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

I'm sorry, I'm calling bullshit on this. If he only asked those who had actually gotten here, then yes, of course it's going to look like players prefer it. I want to see his numbers and just what part of the population was queried.

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Copying this from another post; there may not be any numbers, but that doesn’t mean that Yoshida would be disingenuous either—

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Considering the sheer amount of Floor 200 parties I saw on Cactuar not only in Heavensward but in Stormblood after they enabled cross-server functions for Floor 200 runs (and at that point, they were across Aether), I disagree. Sure that’s anecdotal...however—if people didn’t do the content, why would the developers mention they’re making floors 31 to 100 of Heaven on High difficult because players enjoyed the more difficult floors of PotD more than the easier floors? Those words came from Yoshida himself.

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With the original Deep Dungeon, Palace of the Dead, we released 200 floors over two patches. However our feedback indicates that outside of leveling other jobs, players only really enjoyed the challenge of floors 180 to 200. With Heaven on High the leveling and story portion will end at floor 30, but floors 31 to 100 should feel closer to 180 to 200. Expect that kind of challenge from 31 to 100 and we hope the players enjoy accessing this content a little sooner.

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Source: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...1A/mobilebasic

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Nothing in his statement claims he was querying any specific part of the playerbase, but the playerbase as a whole—so anyone looking to say that it was “only the raiders” that enjoyed have no argument there. Which is basically what Riyah always says—the only players that enjoy hard content are Savage raiders, when PotD Floor 200 proves otherwise (as opposed to other anecdotal stories).