And so it begins again

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Originally Posted by Maeka

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There was also IIRC a sizeable thread on reddit at 4.0 about it; things quietened down when the ridiculous Cure-dependent lily proc was removed and DB improved, but the original sentiments haven't really changed.

You could conveniently make the same assumption here, though. The happy (non-WHM main) minority are here saying WHM feels fine, the unhappy majority are not a part of the forum. It evidently caused enough of a problem that the dev team modified the worst aspects of the job, but the lesser complaints remain. And while these complaints remain, the other classes receive more attention.

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If you don't think 10% or less of a difference matters to players in terms of clears and speed... boy, we've really been playing a different game.

And I'm on that path already, make no mistake, but "play something else" is hardly a solution to class imbalance, nor should it be.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

we haven't grown since 3.0 and we have little to offer compared to the other healers.

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I'm going to take umbrage with this point.

We absolutely have grown very significantly since 3.0. WHM has always had brute force throughput but prior to Thin Air (as well as more mp overall via mana shift and such) we never had the resource pool to do much with it. 4.0 fixed this in a big way, propelling us from dead last to arguably first here. Not to mention, Benison in it's current form is beastly.

I completely agree that our gauge system is absolutely ignorable in it's current form. I don't think it'd actually take all that much to fix it though and I'll always remind anyone that whilst our CDs are certainly a bit plain and simplistic, we have the strongest core kit of all 3 healers by a healthy margin to make up for it. A WHM is handily the safest pair of hands for learning new content, so it's only fair that an AST is more optimal once the mistakes stop.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

There was also IIRC a sizeable thread on reddit at 4.0 about it; things quietened down when the ridiculous Cure-dependent lily proc was removed and DB improved, but the original sentiments haven't really changed.

You could conveniently make the same assumption here, though. The happy (non-WHM main) minority are here saying WHM feels fine, the unhappy majority are not a part of the forum.

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We had a several hundred page consolidated feedback thread that was active up until right when Stormblood released on this forum, full of WHM mains, and largely based on the Cure/Lily mechanics. To say that we don't have WHM mains who feel there are things wrong with the job here on the forums is completely wrong. As is saying that WHM right now is useless or being mass-excluded from groups.

I play WHM almost as much as I play AST, and from my perspective, the balance hasn't shifted that much. And while I don't raid on here myself, I can tell you several reasons my raiding friends have been happy to have WHMs in their groups: strong, reliable, consistent healing and damage, with tons of emergency tools. Could WHM use a few changes and some utility? Sure, definitely. But WHM is far from being utter garbage. As mentioned WHM is by far the strongest healer for learning and progression, and once you get out of that phase, it hardly makes much of a difference which healer you bring.

If people are unhappy about something, you know they will speak up.

There is no "silent unhappy majority" because silent and unhappy don't go well together. It's almost like an oxymoron.

Unhappy people are only silent when they are too afraid to speak about their issue, or when they have no means to speak up about their issue, or when their issue is not big enough of a problem to speak of.

EDIT: And yes, I am NOT saying the job is perfect. It has flaws. Like....the entire Lily system. However, as the person above me stated, WHM is nowhere near as bad as you make it sound like.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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I'll concede the Thin Air point, I suppose it'd be more accurate to say we offer nothing new. Our toolkit doesn't feel any better, it's just more manageable, and now we have an insta-Stoneskin. That doesn't feel like growth to me, and our utility is still poor.

WHMs have always had the dubious honour of being the healer with the most oh-snap buttons, but throughout 4.0 I haven't come across anything that really warrants it. Not against what an AST/ SCH can do, at any rate.

Problem is, if you want that utility, you have to give up something, and the problem with that is.... if you become like SCH or AST, then you're just a clone of another job.

The idea here is that the 3 healers need to be DIFFERENT than each other.

AST gets Group Buffs.

SCH has a pet to help heal and all of their heals apply small damage absorption shields and they get some other tools.

WHM is the brute force healer and is the easy-to-learn straightforward job.

If you change WHM to be more like AST or SCH, you have to give up some of that raw healing strength and raw DPS, and you end up becoming a clone of one or the other job.

Why would you want to homogenize yourself to be closer to other jobs? If you like the playstyle of the other jobs, just.....go play those jobs instead.

That's like saying "Paladin sucks because they don't do ______ like DRK or WAR does". Each has their own niche to fill.

I have my own thoughs and feeling about how competitive WHM is and what it may or may not need, but this thread is about WHM being locked out of PF, not WHM being weaker than the other healers.
They're simply not being excluded from anything, and as long as you're decent, you can usually contribute much more dps to your party than the average AST or SCH that hopped on the meta bandwagon.

Also I'm not sure what type of content you've been healing, but God Kefka definitely has plenty of situations where you need to heal like hell and plenty of situations where even Plenary Indulgence is useful.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

It is to satisfy you, as I've already stated I don't particularly care if you believe me or not. No amount of demanding "factual evidence" I'm not obligated to provide you is going to change what I've seen. As I've said, believe me, don't believe me, it's immaterial. Really, if you're so certain I'm lying, why does this concern you so much?

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I don't care if you don't care if I believe you. I am asking you to prove your claims.

You made a thread saying "X is happening."
So I said "you don't have any evidence that X is happening."
You say "I do have evidence!"
So I say "So...where is it?"
Then you are like "I don't have to prove it."

/shrug

I mean if you don't want to prove your claims then you might as well concede you were exaggerating or change your OP to state "It is my OPINION that WHM is being excluded by a large amount of groups."

If that is your opinion, sure, go nuts, either keep playing WHM and joining the few bread crumb PFs that allow a poor WHM in it, or switch to another job. You aren't going to get anywhere complaining on the forums about a situation where you have no proof that it is an actual problem.

Other Chaos posters have popped up in this thread saying they see tons of WHMs in the PFs so something doesn't add up here /shrug

It doesn't really concern me in any particular way. I simply dislike when people post paranoid exaggerations which if you know my post history you'll see more of it. Exiled_Tonberry knows since I used to nag at her about getting too paranoid and making exaggerations or claiming stuff that can't be proven.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

But I've also been called a liar, which I'm not.
If people think I'm wrong, fine. But I take issue with saying "I'm making something up" or even trolling

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There is a difference between outright calling someone a liar and simply stating one's own opinion.

It is my opinion that you are lying about this particular situation in order to exaggerate it into being a problem when it is not.

My opinion that you are lying in order to exaggerate isn't even that bad at all compared to what you have said in the past to me. So I mean take issue with it all you want I guess, but I won't change my opinion.

I wasn't about to sugarcoat my own opinion to spare your feelings since you haven't exactly been very nice to me anyway. Had a discussion/debate with you awhile back where you just outright threw personal attacks/ad hominem at me because you couldn't prove your claims back then either.

You're vague with your explanations. I have yet to see you say exactly how many PFs you apparently saw. If this was such a big deal to you then I am curious how you don't seem to know how many you saw and how many weren't locked.

If you post things claiming things are happening but can't prove it you may have people answer with their opinions on what you are claiming. If it looks like an exaggeration, smells like an exaggeration, and sounds like an exaggeration...it just might be an exaggeration.

If you are unhappy with WHM then either change jobs or post useful threads asking for WHM changes or buffs, not waste time over exaggerating things to be an issue when you can't even prove it is. SE isn't going to do anything but laugh at people making exaggerations since they have the full statistics on their end likely proving that WHM isn't being "excluded by a large amount of groups."

I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I just wanna throw my 2 cents. I haven't seen any PFs so far in 4.3 that have excluded White Mage except for the ones that already have one in them.

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Originally Posted by Miste

hm

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You quite clearly care very much.

There isn't much point in my replying to this. You obviously have some sort of underlying issue with me from a previous debate I'm not even sure I remember; we've clarified, needlessly many times, that you think I am a liar and exaggerating and you want statistics and a diagram I don't have to give you, so what is your goal here? If my assertion is vague to you because I don't gather screenshots and statistics and note times in preparation for internet arguments, then that's your problem. I was airing a frustration after witnessing a change I was told would never happen, struggling to find a group for the first time in a year. It's fine if you think I'm wrong. If you even think I'm a liar, so be it; you misunderstood what I meant in that respect anyway. But if you're waiting for me to say my own eyes were wrong to please you, you'll be waiting a while.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

You quite clearly care very much.

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I will preface with the fact that I am a habitual paranoid WHM, as is evident in the 15 page fiasco of a thread that is still being replied to in these same forums surrounding the 4.3 AST buffs. I started that. If you haven't dropped by go ahead, if that doesn't convince you that I'm inclined to be on your side here I'm not sure what will.

I feel like ultimately all you need to do to settle this is present some evidence. Screenshots can easily be grabbed on PC and while PS4 is slightly less user friendly it isn't anything close to impossible.

Let me be clear - I don't think your claims are outlandish, I do think that we will find ourselves in a poor place at the end of the expansion, but honestly it makes me a bit suspicious of your claims when you're consistantly pressed for evidence and consisitantly fail to present any. I want to believe that this thread was started for a legitimate reason and to put this entire debate to bed all you need to do is prove your claims... so please do!

I understand that you didn't gather any screenshots when you first encountered this situation but if it is prevalent enough for you to continue this debate I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find further proof of your claims.

You have the power to end this entire discussion and aim it in the direction that WHM may actually be in danger, all you need to do is back your points up.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

WHMs have always had the dubious honour of being the healer with the most oh-snap buttons, but throughout 4.0 I haven't come across anything that really warrants it. Not against what an AST/ SCH can do, at any rate.

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Don't take this as an attack, but I'm guessing you don't do a huge amount of raiding? If so, that makes your viewpoint more understandable since very little outside of Savage requires the sort of throughput WHM is capable of.

I can only promise you that when you are learning God Kefka, that HPS potency is highly appreciated early on.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

My point is WHM's growing irrelevancy. Groups have been appearing to that effect, I've seen a handful, others, only one, or not at all. But they've still appeared with the patch, and it alarms me. It's an all-too familiar sight.

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We'll know pretty soon, once enough logs from 4.3 go up to see if the trends have changed.

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You really don't need to look very far, just look at the various WHM threads since 4.0. There are a lot of comments to the effect of our gauge is useless, our utility is non-existent, we haven't grown since 3.0 and we have little to offer compared to the other healers.

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All of those things were true (or not, 4.0 WHM is clearly better than 3.0 WHM) in 4.2, and WHM did just fine in 4.2. The gauge is useless, but our spells sure aren't. It was comical in expert last night when I actually got a lily. But the gauge being useless is also a blessing, because not having the resource doesn't matter. The job plays just fine if you pretend it doesn't exist.

That's a design flaw with the gauge, but it doesn't break the job.

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You kind of answered yourself there. "AST and SCH can do the same", and more. You can complete content with any class, provided you're competent enough. But when there's enough of a gap between what each one offers, the question - which someone mentioned previously - is, "why WHM instead of AST/ SCH?" There's a problem when you feel you're holding the group back playing the class you like.

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But that stuff didn't change from 4.2, and in 4.2 WHM was the #2 healer in popularity for savage with a large gap over AST. If AST is so much better, why is WHM so popular?

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I didn't say it's being locked out of the majority content, I said WHM is becoming irrelevant to the point of being excluded in certain scenarios once again, which is a valid concern to have with a class. "well it's still ok" isn't much consolation.

Regardless of how few you may have seen, the fact they exist is a problem. The balance is off when it's a case of guaranteed spot vs. "uhm fine I guess but can you change?"

It is to satisfy you, as I've already stated I don't particularly care if you believe me or not. No amount of demanding "factual evidence" I'm not obligated to provide you is going to change what I've seen. As I've said, believe me, don't believe me, it's immaterial. Really, if you're so certain I'm lying, why does this concern you so much?

The groups cropped up with this patch, I'm assuming with the recent changes.

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You saying its a fact doesn't make it a fact. Facts require proof, and you also just said that you refuse to provide that because you're "not obligated" to provide actual facts. You know what that's called? #FakeNews

Unlike you, i went ingame to check PF on Odin (Chaos) today at 2PM ST and not a single high end duty locked out WHM, a majority already had WHM in it, aswell as the healer slots being open to every healer. Even farm parties and o3s/o4s weekly parties didn't leave WHM out. You have only done o5s and o6s and in those fight having AST/SCH or WHM/SCH literally makes no difference. The only time people demand AST is when they want to do speedruns or logruns and it's usually dps requesting that to get their numbers up.

I have also solo healed 5 and 6 as WHM and AST and it is MUCH easier as WHM and i can even throw out a few stones because i don't have to worry about mana, aswell as the AST cards being so RNG my group felt it went better with WHM.
I also did God kefka progression with AST as SCH and my group felt more stable with WHM/SCH combo because of the huge amount of damage coming out that is tackled the best with a WHM.

https://imgur.com/a/Djclbr8

If it really is as big a problem as you make it out to be I'm sure you have no problem going online and taking screenshots of the "large amount of groups" that won't let WHM join no?

LOL at least one of those above screenshots specifically wants a WHM and the rest say "WHM SCH AST remaining".

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

You quite clearly care very much.

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I care about posting my opinions and challenging people when they make claims with no facts. In general challenging people to prove their claims when it reeks of exaggeration like your OP.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

There isn't much point in my replying to this. You obviously have some sort of underlying issue with me from a previous debate I'm not even sure I remember

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I mean...if you are not going to read my replies then of course there is no point in you bothering to reply. Since you end up posting things that are completely incorrect even though I already explained myself to you.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I dislike when people post paranoid exaggerations which if you know my post history you'll see more of it. Exiled_Tonberry knows since I used to nag at her about getting too paranoid and making exaggerations or claiming stuff that can't be proven.

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You aren't a special case, Lunaxia. If anyone else posted this same thread, guess what? I'd be here to challenge them.

It isn't about you no matter how much you think it is. It is about what you posted in this thread's OP.

I may choose my words differently and be more blunt because of what happened in the past since I honestly think you can handle it with all that salty ad hominem you threw at me back then; it's fine if you don't remember I don't care, but I'd still be here if the OP wasn't made by you so don't kid yourself.

I just found it amusing you seemed offended by my opinion that you are lying to exaggerate the situation; something that isn't even close to how rude you were to me in the past /shrug

So I decided to explain why I was so blunt and open with my opinion on this since you kept bringing up the "liar" thing as such a huge sticking point in most of your posts in here.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

If my assertion is vague to you because I don't gather screenshots and statistics and note times in preparation for internet arguments, then that's your problem.

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I didn't say post screenshots of the ones you initially saw because you already said you didn't take any. Again, actually reading what I post will help you in actually replying properly.

I said your explanation is vague because you can't even recall in your MIND how many groups you saw in PF excluding WHM to answer questions being posed to you in here.

If this was such a big deal did you not even count them when you apparently kept seeing more of them?? You don't even have a recollection at all?

Like others have said...you said a "large amount of groups" are excluding WHMs since the patch dropped.

This thread was made over 2 days ago...you could have taken some screenshots after you posted it since people were questioning your claims.

You claimed it was a large amount of groups so how come you won't go take screenshots?? They must be there in the PF if you believe your own claim right? Even someone from Chaos above took screenshots of the PF, why can't you to prove what you claimed in OP??

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

But if you're waiting for me to say my own eyes were wrong to please you, you'll be waiting a while.

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Nope...and hopefully this is the last time I need to explain this to you...because at this point it seems you are being willfully obtuse.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Mandatory AST placement has returned, and a large number of groups are dropping the pretense altogether and are back to excluding WHM entirely for SCH/ AST.

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I'm waiting for you to prove this claim you made.

So do it or concede you have no facts to back up your claim.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

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I appreciate the sentiment behind your response, but the purpose of this thread has been largely misunderstood. I've already said I don't care if people believe me, and if I were ever inclined to, it vanished with the subsequent replies. I saw what I saw. If it isn't reflected in other people's experiences, then that's only a good thing for WHM. I'm not so optimistic, clearly. But I'm not putting my time into convincing people I don't really care for, especially when they can and already have made up their own minds.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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I raid when I can, and I'm familiar with the Kefka mechanics. I guess I just don't see it as much of a consolation that we have one duty where our level 70 skill isn't useless/ overkill and can be replaced without much issue when the fight becomes more familiar. From this thread, some people are comfortable with WHM being the "prog healer" (though even during 1 - 3, it didn't feel necessary) but I still find it needs more to be on par with the other healers.

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Originally Posted by Miste

girl...

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I've said everything I'm going to say. You're vastly overestimating your own opinion and how much I actually care what you think, and the time and energy I'm willing to put into changing that.

Perhaps what I said was rude. I'm not in the habit of making offensive or personal slights, but if what I said was so terrible it affected you to the point you've held onto it so long, then I'm sorry.

I love how you just keep ignoring everyone that took the time to provide actual evidence with screenshots, whilst you have failed to do so! So i think we can all agree now that you saw a few people wanting specific jobs (wich they have the right to do) and blew the whole thing out of proportion.

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Originally Posted by Beelhi

n

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I acknowledged it. I said I'm glad, but I'm still wary.

If it makes you feel better believing that, then by all means.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

You're vastly overestimating your own opinion and how much I actually care what you think

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If you don't care what I think then why have you continued to reply to me every time I address you?

You can just ignore me if you want. It doesn't really matter to me since it is quite obvious you don't want to be bothered to actually try to defend and prove what you posted in your OP...so to me I am kind of confused why you even bothered to post it. I basically met the goal I came in here for and that is to show that what you posted in the OP of this thread is an exaggeration.

You should make threads about real WHM issues to help the job, instead of this exaggeration which just wasted time... or simply switch jobs if you don't like how it plays.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Perhaps what I said was rude. I'm not in the habit of making offensive or personal slights, but if what I said was so terrible it affected you to the point you've held onto it so long, then I'm sorry.

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You didn't need to apologize, since it was a long time ago, nice of you to do so though. I wouldn't have even mentioned it, but you really seemed to take my opinion harshly over something very minor compared to how I've seen you post in the past so it seemed like I should explain why I didn't feel the need to overly sugarcoat it for you.

You might be putting too much stock in your ability to affect me with weak insults on a forum. It simply means I won't likely be overly friendly to you because you lost a lot of respect in my eyes after that which affects how I would respond to you; way more likely I'll be blunt with my opinions rather than re-word them to try to be more diplomatic.

Having a good memory doesn't mean I was so terribly affected by the rude comments you made in the past to carry a torch around about it ever since, but since I don't forget due to my good memory I also don't feel the need to be overly sugary to someone who openly threw ad hominem at me. /shrug

You did apologize even though you didn't have to though so at least it shows you in a better light to me now. I also apologize if anything I said offended or hurt you.

People are so dramatic. I've never, ever once seen WHM intentionally excluded from anything.

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Originally Posted by Miste

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The same reason anyone would when accused of making up a story. And your furious insistence I admit to doing so was a little funny, admittedly. In terms of what I "should" do - what I post about WHM, or anything, for that matter, doesn't have to meet your specifications. You seem to have an unwarranted sense of self-importance concerning yourself and your impact on other people. You are not the judge and jury of this forum.

I don't take offence at being called a liar. I took issue with it being the only logical conclusion because it doesn't tally with others' experiences. I have to say, it feels an awful lot like you're projecting the animosity and upset you've felt towards me onto me to hide the fact you've been bothered by this.

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You did apologize even though you didn't have to though so at least it shows you in a better light to me now.

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I wish I could say the same.

The lockout can happen, yes. But I think that it isn't frequent enough to raise an alarm. And that party that locked WHM out maybe was doing a parse run. And if parse runs isn't your thing, you don't want to be there to begin with.

We are walking on thin ice, sure. But our situation let us to play on every situation bringing something to the group, even on parse runs. And we are even META for some situations (prog, ultimate, 4-man dungeon speedrun, etc), since it appears that the AST buff ended up being more a QoL than a overtune. And we continue bringing one thing to the table: safety. If everything goes south on the trial, it's easier/faster to save the run as WHM.

So to the OP I would say: please, chill down a little. I know that the 3.4 scars didn't healed yet and our future is very uncertain. But you can now join another group that isn't locking us out. And there are a plenty. Don't worry about it for now, ok?

Signed,
A paranoid salt mage

I can confirm there is a WHM lockout. We have an entire discord of ppl dedicated to locking them out for no other reason than we all thinking they look dumb.

You are right to fear, as this conspiracy is growing in numbers and fame. Soon, WHM will become so taboo, you won’t wven be able to get a roulette queue.

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Originally Posted by Zeyd

I can confirm there is a WHM lockout. We have an entire discord of ppl dedicated to locking them out for no other reason than we all thinking they look dumb.

You are right to fear, as this conspiracy is growing in numbers and fame. Soon, WHM will become so taboo, you won’t wven be able to get a roulette queue.

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That was a great secret society we had once...

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Originally Posted by Tridus

That was a great secret society we had once...

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It was and still is. We were responsible for PLD in Hw, and SAM too. Whms take this very seriously, it’s not a joke. You are in your way out.

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Originally Posted by Zeyd

It was and still is. We were responsible for PLD in Hw, and SAM too. Whms take this very seriously, it’s not a joke. You are in your way out.

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the PF-inatti

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

In terms of what I "should" do - what I post about WHM, or anything, for that matter, doesn't have to meet your specifications. You seem to have an unwarranted sense of self-importance concerning yourself and your impact on other people. You are not the judge and jury of this forum.

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LOL...oh you are a gem, this post is hilarious.

I never said you had to meet my specifications, but that doesn't stop me from calling you out on things you post. Don't post in a public forum making claims like this if you can't handle people challenging your claims.

Can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

I am not the judge and jury of this forum, of course not, but I have just as much right to post as you do don't I? I can post whatever I want to as long as it follows the forum rules. If you don't want to answer me no one can force you, but it doesn't mean I have to stop posting or asking.

You are free to ignore me like I said before, which considering you said you don't care what I think wouldn't that be easy for you to do? Yet...here you are again replying every time I address you.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

it feels an awful lot like you're projecting the animosity and upset you've felt towards me onto me to hide the fact you've been bothered by this.

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Feel that way if you wish to. I assure you your assumptions about how I feel are incorrect.

If it helps you sleep at night though, sure, go for it; pretend to yourself that you hurt my feelings and that is the whole reason I refuse to accept your exaggeration and not because you are posting nonsense and refuse to prove what you claiming in a public forum with your posts lol

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I wish I could say the same.

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Originally Posted by Miste

You did apologize even though you didn't have to though so at least it shows you in a better light to me now. I also apologize if anything I said offended or hurt you.

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I noticed you snipped that part and didn't keep the part where I also apologized if I caused any offense to you.

I was completely polite to you and this is how you reply? rofl

I thought we were making some good progress and you just threw yourself back into the ditch of mud.

I thought maybe you changed from before, but your true colours are popping out now since this whole reply you made is focused on me as a person instead of the actual points of the argument in this thread.

I have "unwarranted sense of self-importance" just because I disagree with you and call you out for claiming things that you have no evidence of....pfft lololol that made my day, thank you! I haven't laughed that hard in awhile.

So whatever, be hostile to me, I can take it, but also ends me giving any cares about being nice to you. I take back the apology. You have such a terrible attitude. Have a nice day!

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I appreciate the sentiment behind your response, but the purpose of this thread has been largely misunderstood. I've already said I don't care if people believe me, and if I were ever inclined to, it vanished with the subsequent replies. I saw what I saw. If it isn't reflected in other people's experiences, then that's only a good thing for WHM. I'm not so optimistic, clearly. But I'm not putting my time into convincing people I don't really care for, especially when they can and already have made up their own minds.

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So you made a thread spouting the doom and gloom of WHM, made snide remarks at SE and mocked another AST buff yet don't care if people believe anything you say? Why make a thread then? The entire purpose behind a forum is discussion. If you wanted a personal blog where no one can challenge your opinion, create one on your lodestone page and turn off comments. You are being called a liar on the basis of when asked for proof in response to numerous conflicting evidence, you not only balk but change your entire argument to "I don't care if you believe me."

Truth hurts, hun. And in this case, it looks like you overreacted to a couple PFs and have desperately tried to save face instead of admitting you jumped the gun.

When OP hasn't delivered with any evidence while numerous people have posted there is no whm lockout I think OP is outnumbered and is flat out wrong. This thread sounds like an excuse to complain about AST if anything.

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Originally Posted by Miste

I never said you had to meet my specifications.

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You should make threads about real WHM issues to help the job, instead of this exaggeration which just wasted time... or simply switch jobs if you don't like how it plays.

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This is a real issue to me. It doesn't have to meet your criteria for being a valid concern. It doesn't have to be set out in a way that pleases you. You're at liberty to disagree with it.

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manip.

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You can post what you like. No one said otherwise.

You actively go out of your way to get me to reply to you, so there are some odd mixed messages here.

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Feel that way if you wish to.

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I don't think for a minute that your problems towards me are entirely behind your disagreement. But if you're going to pretend there's no grudge I'm just going to lol.

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snip!

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The apology didn't mean much to me in the context of your post, unfortunately. I was merely being honest. You came in here holding a grudge, accused me of lying and "spreading nonsense", demanded evidence from me I didn't have to give you - and at that point, didn't particularly want to - used it to say I'm making everything up, claimed I personally attacked you, continue to keep this going for what I can only assume is your own ego when I've said I have nothing for you, attempt to tell me how I should post to be acceptable to you, go on to assume your opinion of me has any relevance here or to me, and rather manipulatively twist your own upset onto me. I don't "sugarcoat" either, and I don't think much of you for it. Just pity.

My comment on your self-importance has nothing to do with our disagreement, and I think you know that. You think too highly of yourself and the value of your opinion, and use it as a tool in your arguments against other people, much like you are now.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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I don't. I made this venting frustration the other night. I defended myself when I was accused of making everything up. "I think you're wrong about this" and "you're lying/ trolling" are two very different things. It's mostly been the latter.

"Mocked an AST buff", it was a poor joke referencing the AST situation from HW and WHM being regularly ignored by buffs, please calm down.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

This is a real issue to me. It doesn't have to meet your criteria for being a valid concern.

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I saw a few BLM's that never did any aoe rotation on 5-6+ mobs so I'm seriously worried about how a large group of BLM's play <---- see how rediciulous that sounds?

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

You came in here holding a grudge, accused me of lying and "spreading nonsense", demanded evidence from me I didn't have to give you

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You know, USUALLY when people claim things, they need to back things up with evidence because if you're not, whilst others are providing evidence that you are wrong, it will lead to a thread calling you an overreacting liar. A few people that demand AST/SCH combo is not the end of WHM. And as alot of us have shown you, most parties already have WHM or don't care about what healer they get.

What I don't understand is why you keep going at it, even though everyone who ever posted in this thread has proved you wrong and just bringing up PF at this very moment will show you that no WHMs are being locked out of anything. Even farm parties which is where AST shines the most are allowing WHMs so....what are you doing?

It's almost like you're purposely being unreasonable to shine a negative light on other WHMs and complaints that have actual weight.

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Originally Posted by Beelhi

I saw a few BLM's that never did any aoe rotation on 5-6+ mobs so I'm seriously worried about how a large group of BLM's play <---- see how rediciulous that sounds?

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Well... no, actually?

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snip.

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All right, if you want to believe that.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

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I'm wondering the same. You don't believe me, I'm a liar, WHMs are fine... so why are you still here?

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I'm wondering the same. You don't believe me, I'm a liar, WHMs are fine... so why are you still here?

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I never said WHM was fine. I have my own feelings on where WHM stands right now, but what you're doing is just making things up to make things sound worse than they really are.
Threads like this is why people don't take WHM complaints seriously anymore.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

This is a real issue to me. It doesn't have to meet your criteria for being a valid concern. It doesn't have to be set out in a way that pleases you. You're at liberty to disagree with it.

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Are you serious? It's an issue just because I made a suggestion to you?

You do realize I didn't say "you have to".

I was making a suggestion to you that I feel would better benefit your time and energy which you are free to ignore just as I am free to suggest it.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

You actively go out of your way to get me to reply to you, so there are some odd mixed messages here.

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How can I go out of my way to get you to reply to me? I can't force you to reply. You said you don't care what I think so if that is true how can anything I say get you to reply??

This is getting ridiculous....also I'm not really going out of my way...I have been replying solely based on what you reply to me since the beginning of this and also explaining why I posted the opinion in the way that I did since you were so stuck on the "liar" thing.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I don't think for a minute that your problems towards me are entirely behind your disagreement. But if you're going to pretend there's no grudge I'm just going to lol.

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You do you. It doesn't make any difference to me what you need to do to assure yourself. I already fully explained this twice.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

The apology didn't mean much to me in the context of your post, unfortunately.

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It was quite obvious from your response to my apology that you were simply too salty to accept it, so /shrug, I figured the whole thing was over after those two posts, you apologized, I apologized, but then you came back with the sodium out of no where.

I guess your initial apology wasn't sincere and was just derisive otherwise you wouldn't be so hostile immediately after I also apologized to you; which was sincere by the way. It's too bad I really thought we got somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I was merely being honest. You came in here holding a grudge, accused me of lying and "spreading nonsense", demanded evidence from me I didn't have to give you - and at that point, didn't particularly want to - used it to say I'm making everything up, claimed I personally attacked you, continue to keep this going for what I can only assume is your own ego when I've said I have nothing for you, attempt to tell me how I should post to be acceptable to you, go on to assume your opinion of me has any relevance here or to me, and rather manipulatively twist your own upset onto me. I don't "sugarcoat" either, and I don't think much of you for it. Just pity.

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I was merely being honest too, so what's your point?

I already explained myself multiple times, so I mean do go on, this is popcorn worthy stuff right here. You obviously really cannot handle when people disagree with you or challenge things you claim in posts. Also all this rant here is stuff I have already explained. So, /shrug no point in repeating myself, like I said keep going if you want to, it is amusing.

I am really REALLY confused how you are offended that I used the word "should" and made a suggestion.

Pity me if you like. I am honored to be in your thoughts~

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

My comment on your self-importance has nothing to do with our disagreement, and I think you know that. You think too highly of yourself and the value of your opinion, and use it as a tool in your arguments against other people, much like you are now.

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So if anyone disagrees with you or challenges your claims they simply have too huge an ego, value their own opinion too much, and are just using it as a tool against people.

Okay, gotcha! I totally understand. I forgot people can't disagree with each other without all of that. My bad.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

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No one takes WHM seriously anyway, lol. 3.0, we overreacted. Balance buff, we overreacted. Pre-4.0, we overreacted. 4.0, we're still overreacting. People still argue WHM is fine when WHM mains know there's a lot of room for improvement. My thread isn't going to change anything.

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Originally Posted by Miste

nnn

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Okay, Miste. I hope you feel better.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

No one takes WHM seriously anyway, lol. 3.0, we overreacted. Balance buff, we overreacted. Pre-4.0, we overreacted. 4.0, we're still overreacting. People still argue WHM is fine when WHM mains know there's a lot of room for improvement. My thread isn't going to change anything.

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Meanwhile, I disagreed with the naysayers for 2.0, 3.0 and 4.0 and was mostly correct on all 3 occasions. I did agree with the flock for 3.4 and actually mained AST for that tier rather than waste effort fighting an uphill battle.

Needless to say, here I am, disagreeing with the naysayers again and I'm quietly confident I'm going to be correct here too ;)

Wow... this thread is STILL going!?

Yeeesh. Someone is adamant about their own suckage apparently. Maybe it's the player and not the class? Plenty of WHMs here in the thread that say WHM is fine. One player who "wants" to play WHM says it isn't.

I wonder who exactly is right and who exactly is wrong?

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

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4.0 WHM was a disappointing hot mess, despite being told we were jumping the gun worrying about it, and they acknowledged that by removing the ridiculous Cure lily proc. We're still left with a useless job gauge, though.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

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It's actually me. I'm terrible. WHM is all right. The WHM and lilies threads, I actually made them with my alt account and then made more to make it look like people agree with me.

I'm ashamed.