Housing Suggestions

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

It's not numerical, it's psychological. Rewarding anger doesn't make it go away, it amplifies it.

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Quite frankly, the greedy should get screwed in this situation because most of the housing mess is because of their actions. Getting evicted from their extra houses is just punishment.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

SE should have never allowed large houses to be used as personal houses to begin with. That was a mistake, SE should evict the players that are using the large houses as personal houses.

Likewise, there should be enough medium and large houses so the FCs aren't using the small houses - as those houses should be exclusively for players.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Quite frankly, the greedy should get screwed in this situation because most of the housing mess is because of their actions. Getting evicted from their extra houses is just punishment.

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So, anyone with a personal large or medium should get evicted, anyone with more than one house should get evicted, and FCs with small houses should be evicted and forced to buy mediums or larges. Why not just evict everyone and completely be rid of the hassle of the housing system? I mean, that's basically what you seem to want to do anyway.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

SE should have never allowed large houses to be used as personal houses to begin with. That was a mistake, SE should evict the players that are using the large houses as personal houses.

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But.. why? Other than the gardens, which I do agree should be 3 plots for everyone, there is no major technical difference between a small and a large for a FC. Beyond that point, there is literally no reason for a FC to have priority on larges beyond some vague reasoning of "space", in which case you'll need to start policing FCs based on numbers of players who actively use the house - good luck with that one. And now with the option to teleport to friends houses, personal homes can be just as much of a gathering spot. So it comes full circle; there's no argument beyond "I want a large and I deserve it more than that guy because of feelings".

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Originally Posted by MizArai

So, anyone with a personal large or medium should get evicted, anyone with more than one house should get evicted, and FCs with small houses should be evicted and forced to buy mediums or larges. Why not just evict everyone and completely be rid of the hassle of the housing system? I mean, that's basically what you seem to want to do anyway.

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But then how will they satisfy their thirst for blood?

Housing should definitely be removed at this point and workshops be instances at Grand company locations. Maybe then, after they notice the absence they learn to appreciate it

Given that legacy servers ( and a few others ) have insanely higher populations than others ( as some have been closed for over a year now ) would be nice if SE at least treated it as such vs just expanding as a global, it'd def help the larger populated areas, though again it'd probably just abused anyways, but just a thought on that.

I.e high populated servers have more wards. Though honestly all this is doing is make the community debate/fight over how they utilize the minimum of what SE is giving us, vs trying to tackle the problem with how SE is going about it. For the most part people without are hoping to further limit and reduce which only screws more people and just creates discord imo especially for those that got"grandfathered in"

Yeah we've got an issue, but it'd be great if housing were on its own servers that way they could populate it more, given that they disable them time to time when there's high load given the servers they share w/ other map servers. When you've done a ton in game a house is a nice way to keep u occupied in between content, such as decorating, crafting, airships ( and subs now ) ( for FC"s at least ) as for personal more decorative/gardening.

For those trying to limit things even further that just puts a bigger grin on SE's face to the point they don't have to do anything but let the community divide itself.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

So, anyone with a personal large or medium should get evicted, anyone with more than one house should get evicted, and FCs with small houses should be evicted and forced to buy mediums or larges. Why not just evict everyone and completely be rid of the hassle of the housing system? I mean, that's basically what you seem to want to do anyway.

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Ok, you fail at reading comprehension, as the medium personal houses should be left alone...

But other than that, given enough time, yes SE should enforce restrictions on who gets what. Throw in more wards (like twice as many as we have now), remove the hoarders (cause they're part of the problem), and then there should be enough supply for everyone to at least get the house size they want.

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Originally Posted by Sothis

But.. why? Other than the gardens, which I do agree should be 3 plots for everyone, there is no major technical difference between a small and a large for a FC.

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The housing system was originally intended for FCs, and following that original intention, the largest plots of land should be FCs. That's my opinion and no amount of QQ from you (or the rest of the whiners here) is going to change it.

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Originally Posted by Sothis

Beyond that point, there is literally no reason for a FC to have priority on larges beyond some vague reasoning of "space", in which case you'll need to start policing FCs based on numbers of players who actively use the house - good luck with that one.

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You track it by what owns it (FC or personal), and have automated server scripts that do the pruning/kicking - all completely impartial and will guarantee the rules will be enforced fairly for all.

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Originally Posted by LunaP

For those trying to limit things even further that just puts a bigger grin on SE's face to the point they don't have to do anything but let the community divide itself.

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The community already did that when https://www.reddit.com/r/FFXIVhousingmarket/ was created.

I just want SE to clean up the mess left behind with the 4.2 buy restrictions and let all housing owners (new ones after 4.2 and the ones before 4.2) to have the same amount of housing so we don't have the land barons of Mataeus denying a lot of people a house just because two greedy souls want a ward all to themselves.

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The housing system was originally intended for FCs, and following that original intention, the largest plots of land should be FCs.

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"Original intentions matter!"

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The age of multiple personal and FC houses per account has ended, and none of those thieves should retain their ill-gotten gains.

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"nvm; times change"

So which is it, then?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

"Original intentions matter!"



"nvm; times change"

So which is it, then?

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It's like a bloody kangaroo court here...

Here we go again: All I want is for SE to enforce the housing restrictions on the thieves they grandfathered into the housing system. All players should have exactly one personal house per server per account, and the rest should be forcibly released freeing up housing for more players. The same should go for the FC houses - ending the ability for these thieves to own more than two houses per server per account.

Well, it's not going to happen. They already said as much.

Here's what I want to know: do you actually stand by "original intentions" or not?

If yes, why are you defending their new policy of no more than 1 personal house per server and saying people who had more should get evictions when that wasn't the way it was before?
If no, why are you making a point out of housing only being "originally intended" for FCs, when clearly that isn't the case anymore and hasn't been for a while?

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

That's my opinion and no amount of QQ from you (or the rest of the whiners here) is going to change it.

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There's someone whining about things in here, but it's certainly not me.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Here we go again: All I want is for SE to enforce the housing restrictions on the thieves they grandfathered into the housing system. All players should have exactly one personal house per server per account, and the rest should be forcibly released freeing up housing for more players.

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Except for the part where you literally just said players should be evicted from their personal larges. Not all people with personal larges are slum lords. You're out for blood from 100% legit players too, because of some sense of entitlement to things they have. You keep claiming they're "denying people a house" but there are houses open for purchase on every single server right at this moment. Hundreds of houses on most servers. It's clearly got nothing to do with having a house.

When you only think of multi-plot owners as thieves, the dialogue dies there. You'll just be talking at whoever tells you otherwise. I understand the part about houses were originally intended for FCs, wouldn't be surprised at all if they were. But you have to admit if not for personal buyers, wards would mostly be empty and who knows if we'd even have a housing system at all if the wards were scrapped as failures.

#DeleteFFXIVHousing. THEN we can all cry about how we don't have houses anymore.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Well, it's not going to happen. They already said as much.

Here's what I want to know: do you actually stand by "original intentions" or not?

If yes, why are you defending their new policy of no more than 1 personal house per server and saying people who had more should get evictions when that wasn't the way it was before?
If no, why are you making a point out of housing only being "originally intended" for FCs, when clearly that isn't the case anymore and hasn't been for a while?

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Because it's a little more complicated than the black and white answer you seek, and you care not for the nuance, so I'm not going to waste my time talking to someone that doesn't want to listen.

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Originally Posted by Sothis

You're out for blood from 100% legit players too

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Yeah, because players that have more than one personal house per server per account are 100% legit...

Don't try to take the moral high ground when you're standing in the morass of illgotten gains.

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Originally Posted by Jellybums

When you only think of multi-plot owners as thieves, the dialogue dies there.

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By the current restrictions, SE redefined them to be thieves - for they have resources they should not have, and resources another could use.

If that's not the definition of thievery, I don't know what is.

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Originally Posted by Jellybums

But you have to admit if not for personal buyers, wards would mostly be empty and who knows if we'd even have a housing system at all if the wards were scrapped as failures.

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Or if SE would have had the stones to enforce their restrictions upon the player-base and not grandfather anyone in, we wouldn't have this discussion. SE doesn't allow any newer player to have more than one personal house per account per server, so why should they grandfather in the older owners?

SE needs to have the stones to force the older owners to release their excess houses. If a newer player can't get it, they shouldn't have it either.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

All players should have exactly one personal house per server per account, and the rest should be forcibly released freeing up housing for more players. The same should go for the FC houses - ending the ability for these thieves to own more than two houses per server per account.

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Honest to God question here. I have multiple characters on one server (on many servers actually, but lets just stick to my main server for this). My multiple characters are spread across 3 FCs, all of which now have their own house. Which two FCs should lose their house since I'm a member, or should people like me who are members of multiple FCs be forced to pick just 1 FC to be part of? Limiting to only 1 FC house per account per server is fine for not being able to purchase anymore, however, if you're wanting to enforce the rule completely, not just the purchasing aspect, you're opening up a whole new can of worms that I'm pretty sure you haven't considered.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Or if SE would have had the stones to enforce their restrictions upon the player-base and not grandfather anyone in, we wouldn't have this discussion. SE doesn't allow any newer player to have more than one personal house per account per server, so why should they grandfather in the older owners?

SE needs to have the stones to force the older owners to release their excess houses. If a newer player can't get it, they shouldn't have it either.

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A few years ago, there was a glitch where people could add their alts to their friends list. Those people can send themselves mail and add themselves as tenants at their homes. It was not something ever intended as part of the design of the game, and it definitely is something new players cannot do. Should SE go back and remove this from the old players? Should anything and everything that has ever been grandfathered in be removed and "fixed"? I know I'd be pissed if my lofts that I was able to place because of a UI glitch that was fixed with 4.2 were taken from me and I had to try the new (much, much harder) way to hope to get them back.

I really don't understand why you are filled with so much hatred towards anything being grandfathered in. I read a great example in the forums somewhere (I may try to find it later to add the quote), but it basically said in real life if you build a house, you have to build it to the codes and laws as they are right then. If your city/ town/ county/ state/ country/ whoever changes the codes which housing has to be built to, you don't have to rebuild/ fix your house to meet those new codes even though any new houses have to meet those codes. If you try to upgrade your old home, then you have to meet the new codes, but just because the laws (rules) changed, doesn't mean that they should be retro-active and everyone in the town should have to rebuild everything just to meet the new coding. That's how things get grandfathered in, and it's almost always a better system for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Because it's a little more complicated than the black and white answer you seek, and you care not for the nuance, so I'm not going to waste my time talking to someone that doesn't want to listen.

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Nuance? Nah, mate. You want a house reset with very limiting rules.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Yeah, because players that have more than one personal house per server per account are 100% legit... Don't try to take the moral high ground when you're standing in the morass of illgotten gains.

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Citation needed.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

By the current restrictions, SE redefined them to be thieves - for they have resources they should not have, and resources another could use. If that's not the definition of thievery, I don't know what is.

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To be accused of theft, someone has to have lost something that belonged to them. Said resource had no owner. SE taking the plots they bought in a retroactive manner would fall into more of a term for thievery than your rationale.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Or if SE would have had the stones to enforce their restrictions upon the player-base and not grandfather anyone in, we wouldn't have this discussion. SE doesn't allow any newer player to have more than one personal house per account per server, so why should they grandfather in the older owners? SE needs to have the stones to force the older owners to release their excess houses. If a newer player can't get it, they shouldn't have it either.

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Instead of making entitled statements you should point to the actual issue. Houses are not released faster than they think they are. Plenty of demolition suspensions have happened in game which severely impede the housing rotation they expect. Either deploy housing wards faster or the demolition schedule should continue, regardless of outside affairs. I vote for the former, more houses, more often.

Add workshops to private housing since can have 5 others with full access to your private house and Since alts can't own a fc house anymore. That way your friends can help with crafting air ships, subs, and other housing items.

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Because it's a little more complicated than the black and white answer you seek, and you care not for the nuance, so I'm not going to waste my time talking to someone that doesn't want to listen.

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Read: I'm totally a hypocrite but can't admit it, so I'm going to write it off as everyone else being too closed-minded to understand. That'll show em!

ok bro.

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Yeah, because players that have more than one personal house per server per account are 100% legit...

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There was never any rule against it when they got them, so yep, it is 100% legit. Glad to see you agree.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Yeah, because players that have more than one personal house per server per account are 100% legit...

Don't try to take the moral high ground when you're standing in the morass of illgotten gains.

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I'm talking about your incredibly sweeping "take every personal large" statement. Spoiler: I have a single personal home, on a single character, on a single account, which I bought as an open lot. There is nothing ill-gotten about any of it. There is literally no reason for me to be penalized, but you're calling for it anyway because, uh, feelings I guess?

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Originally Posted by MizArai

Honest to God question here. I have multiple characters on one server (on many servers actually, but lets just stick to my main server for this). My multiple characters are spread across 3 FCs, all of which now have their own house. Which two FCs should lose their house since I'm a member, or should people like me who are members of multiple FCs be forced to pick just 1 FC to be part of? Limiting to only 1 FC house per account per server is fine for not being able to purchase anymore, however, if you're wanting to enforce the rule completely, not just the purchasing aspect, you're opening up a whole new can of worms that I'm pretty sure you haven't considered.

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Do the FC houses by the FC's leader's account.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

A few years ago, there was a glitch where people could add their alts to their friends list. Those people can send themselves mail and add themselves as tenants at their homes. It was not something ever ntended as part of the design of the game, and it definitely is something new players cannot do. Should SE go back and remove this from the old players?

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Yes, SE should do a friend's list sweep and remove them. IMO housing should be used to transfer things between alts.... not the mail system.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

Should anything and everything that has ever been grandfathered in be removed and "fixed"?

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Unless we're talking about stuff that's no longer in the game, yes. All game functionality should be consistent among all players.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

I really don't understand why you are filled with so much hatred towards anything being grandfathered in.

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Because this board has assumed me to be hateful because some of the people that are part of the problem are fighting against me, and they can't admit they're the issue.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

I read a great example in the forums somewhere (I may try to find it later to add the quote), but it basically said in real life if you build a house, you have to build it to the codes and laws as they are right then. If your city/ town/ county/ state/ country/ whoever changes the codes which housing has to be built to, you don't have to rebuild/ fix your house to meet those new codes even though any new houses have to meet those codes. If you try to upgrade your old home, then you have to meet the new codes, but just because the laws (rules) changed, doesn't mean that they should be retro-active and everyone in the town should have to rebuild everything just to meet the new coding. That's how things get grandfathered in, and it's almost always a better system for everyone.

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This isn't RL, so that's not applicable. We're talking about bits on a server interpreted by the server code, not houses.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

Instead of making entitled statements you should point to the actual issue. Houses are not released faster than they think they are. Plenty of demolition suspensions have happened in game which severely impede the housing rotation they expect. Either deploy housing wards faster or the demolition schedule should continue, regardless of outside affairs. I vote for the former, more houses, more often.

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You mean the real problem where the pre-4.3 housing wards are used so inefficiently that we'll need at least another 5 wards to be at the capacity we should have because SE doesn't have the balls to force housing releases?

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Originally Posted by Sothis

I'm talking about your incredibly sweeping "take every personal large" statement. Spoiler: I have a single personal home, on a single character, on a single account, which I bought as an open lot. There is nothing ill-gotten about any of it. There is literally no reason for me to be penalized, but you're calling for it anyway because, uh, feelings I guess?

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That large house should never have been allowed to be used as a personal house. It's what Lord of the Rings Online did with their housing system, and none of the issues we have in FFXIV were ever present there. The model works, and it should be brought over here.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

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This isn't RL, so that's not applicable. We're talking about bits on a server interpreted by the server code, not houses.
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I would like to add to this little part here!
If we went to compare to RL anyway, then we would still have issues as the grandfathering doesn't happen everywhere. Sometimes as the rules change you are forced to change as well within some time governments will give you. Doesn't matter if you had the same house/law for a hundred years, once it changes, it changes for all.

More than talking about server codes, we are talking about a private company. And if they ever decide to not grandfather people who have 60 houses and give them a deadline to choose one and demolish the rest, they can do as they please. Yes, we are the customers, but still, their company, their rules. If they find out that not grandfathering will bring a better view to them, it have some probability of happening. Otherwise, there's not much to fear about

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Originally Posted by MizArai

I really don't understand why you are filled with so much hatred towards anything being grandfathered in.

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Because grandfathering stuff in continues to perpetuate the problem and if the servers are as bad as SE claims, allows some people to put disproportionate and unfair burden on the servers thereby causing other people to have nothing.

When grandfathering doesn't fix the problem, you don't do it. That's why they don't tend to grandfather in many requirements.

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I read a great example in the forums somewhere (I may try to find it later to add the quote), but it basically said in real life if you build a house, you have to build it to the codes and laws as they are right then. If your city/ town/ county/ state/ country/ whoever changes the codes which housing has to be built to, you don't have to rebuild/ fix your house to meet those new codes even though any new houses have to meet those codes. If you try to upgrade your old home, then you have to meet the new codes, but just because the laws (rules) changed, doesn't mean that they should be retro-active and everyone in the town should have to rebuild everything just to meet the new coding. That's how things get grandfathered in, and it's almost always a better system for everyone.

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And when they change the property tax law governing your house, they do NOT typically grandfather you in. You get to pay the new system. If that makes your house more expensive, too bad. Building codes get grandfathered in only because it's extremely impractical to constantly change old buildings.

This is not that. SE needs to bring the hammer down and actually fix this, and if they don't have the capacity to do it with grandfathered people owning 15 houses, then SE needs to choose if those people are more important than the multitudes who are left out entirely. Business wise, the math behind that decision is easy. But, SE has shown nothing but ineptitude on this issue, so expect things to continue to limp along in a broken state for god only knows how long.

What they SHOULD do is in 4.3, add a deed item that you can trade to transfer ownership of a property (effectively putting house selling in game). Change the rules so it's one house per service account, period. No FC/personal split. You get one house. For anyone with more, start the demolition timer in 4.4. That gives them 4.3 to sell off the ones they don't want.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

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Haiiiii <3

I kind of have to agree with the grandfathering being a bad thing.

They should get 30 days notice and told "you get 1 house....and 1 for FC....pick one....and say goodbye to the old ones" - hell full reimbursement would be hard to argue with.

Then you'd get a lot of shots to clean up the situation at that point.

Who knows..maybe SE will actually do that...maybe they want to "wait and see" what happens next when the gate lifts.

See you in the queues Tridus <3 (psst...you should move to adamantoise ;) )

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Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

They should get 30 days notice and told "you get 1 house....and 1 for FC....pick one....and say goodbye to the old ones" - hell full reimbursement would be hard to argue with.

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And if no choice is made, they lose them all. no need for full refund, same conditions as auto-demo should apply.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

You mean the real problem where the pre-4.3 housing wards are used so inefficiently that we'll need at least another 5 wards to be at the capacity we should have because SE doesn't have the balls to force housing releases?

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Pre 4.3? Aw, sweetcakes, let me pop that cherry in your ideas for you. 5 more words would change nothing. 4320 houses of now plus 1200 new houses would only be amazing on low pop servers, barely a breather on mid pop and large pop would be left unsatisfied. And nobody wants a grumpy cat taking away indiscriminately.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

And when they change the property tax law governing your house, they do NOT typically grandfather you in. You get to pay the new system. If that makes your house more expensive, too bad. Building codes get grandfathered in only because it's extremely impractical to constantly change old buildings.

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First off, if you want to compare building a house to property taxes, then we should be getting charged some kind of tax on owning the house in game. Building code is yes or no on if you can build/ use whatever you're building/ wanting to build on property. Property tax is if you don't pay X amount of money each year, we take your property away and sell it to make up for what you owe us (kind of like in game demolition). And FYI, it's extremely impractical to change old code for a one time thing like everyone wants with this whole, get rid of all the extra houses.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

This is not that. SE needs to bring the hammer down and actually fix this, and if they don't have the capacity to do it with grandfathered people owning 15 houses, then SE needs to choose if those people are more important than the multitudes who are left out entirely. Business wise, the math behind that decision is easy. But, SE has shown nothing but ineptitude on this issue, so expect things to continue to limp along in a broken state for god only knows how long.

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They could actually fix the system and seem to be slowly trying to fix it now (maybe) without bringing "the hammer down" on anyone. Needing to fix a broken housing system by adding more to it (probably their best call would be to make apartments upgradable to have sizes similar to at least a small and medium house) is not the same as take away this drop in the bucket of extra houses people own. 100-200 extra houses per server will not fix the housing crisis in the game.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

What they SHOULD do is in 4.3, add a deed item that you can trade to transfer ownership of a property (effectively putting house selling in game). Change the rules so it's one house per service account, period. No FC/personal split. You get one house. For anyone with more, start the demolition timer in 4.4. That gives them 4.3 to sell off the ones they don't want.

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So, you want people to have to choose between having a personal house and being part of an FC with a house? That's gonna go over real well. I mean, it would probably fix the housing crisis, since people would basically be forced into only using FC houses, but yeah, not gonna make people happy. Would probably lose lots of the player base.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Do the FC houses by the FC's leader's account.

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If the FC leader is inactive for 35 days, the FC leadership gets passed on to another person. Because of this, every person in the FC has the potential to inherit the FC and the FC house. That's why the rule exists the way it does currently. By only using the leader's account, you are creating problems down the line with your refusal to let anyone be grandfathered into anything.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Yes, SE should do a friend's list sweep and remove them. IMO housing should be used to transfer things between alts.... not the mail system.

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The only items you can transfer via housing are housing items. How in the world do you want people to transfer stuff between alts via housing? Also, alts cannot access anything in the house of another character on the same account unless they are on the other character's friends list and have been added as a tenant at the house. So, by removing them from the friends list, you are removing whatever access they had to transfer things via housing.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Unless we're talking about stuff that's no longer in the game, yes. All game functionality should be consistent among all players.

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There have been quite a few times where they fixed UI glitches and such that allowed for things like furniture to be placed in certain areas that were not intended. Sometimes players can find a new way to glitch items, sometimes they cannot. Good luck writing code to figure out which items are placed in ways where they could still be glitched there and which items are not. Talk about a waste of resources.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

This isn't RL, so that's not applicable. We're talking about bits on a server interpreted by the server code, not houses.

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Your "bits on a server" are houses though. Using examples from real life can help explain why things should be grandfathered in, you know besides the obvious one of what a waste of resources it would be to write code for a one time event.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

You mean the real problem where the pre-4.3 housing wards are used so inefficiently that we'll need at least another 5 wards to be at the capacity we should have because SE doesn't have the balls to force housing releases?

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We currently have 18 wards for a total of 4320 houses per server. Balmung still has over 13k active players. In order to give everyone that wants a house on Balmung, they would probably need to have about 60+ wards in the game. Most of the large servers probably need about 50 or so wards. With the smallest servers probably needing probably about 30 wards. However, if they actually do allow for small, medium, and large apartments (especially if people can have access to gardening either in their apartment or elsewhere in the game), then those numbers would probably go down a lot (since there are 180 apartments per ward). By most pre-4.2 estimates, forcing a release of all the extra homes players own would give about 100-200 houses per server. When there are currently enough houses for not even 1/3 of a server to have a house, putting 100-200 houses back on the market is barely a drop in the bucket. It's not a solution. It's giving into an angry mob and not helping the situation at all.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

That large house should never have been allowed to be used as a personal house. It's what Lord of the Rings Online did with their housing system, and none of the issues we have in FFXIV were ever present there. The model works, and it should be brought over here.

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There are plenty of games with tons of different housing models that work. Many allow players to buy whatever size house they can afford. And just because something worked well in one game does not mean it will work well in another game. Especially if it's a drastic change from how the game is currently (and taking away all personal large houses would be a drastic change).

Now that I have daily posts again (God, this limit is arbitrary...)

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Originally Posted by Tridus

What they SHOULD do is in 4.3, add a deed item that you can trade to transfer ownership of a property (effectively putting house selling in game). Change the rules so it's one house per service account, period. No FC/personal split. You get one house. For anyone with more, start the demolition timer in 4.4. That gives them 4.3 to sell off the ones they don't want.

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Sorry, Tridus. I have to disagree with you on this. I don't want to have to be forced to choose between having a personal house to call my own and being in a Free Company with my friends. This decision would literally make me choose one or the other, and I disagree with ultimatums of this sort. Ultimately, I would lose out on my personal because I'm the master of my FC. In the situation of my friends, they would have to give up their personal that they lawfully obtained/earned (because they are in an FC with a house), or leave that FC to keep their personal house. Why force people into a decision like that?

People wouldn't need to make shell FCs for their alts if personal housing allowed all alts on that server to share and access its features. But I still would not like the idea of basically having to give up my personal to be in an FC with my friends, or to give up being in an FC with my friends for a personal house. I don't think anyone would like having to make a decision like this--whether they're an FC master or just a member.

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Originally Posted by Tridus

No FC/personal split.

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I was with you until here. FC and Personal are not one and the same. Why should a FC leader be forced to choose between decorating a house uniquely their own, with their preferred tastes, and decorating one that more benefits everyone in a larger group? The only way I could potentially support such a restriction is if Apartments were overhauled to allow for multiple sizes, equivalent garden space and etc. Otherwise, you're needlessly punishing a FC leader.

Edit: If you intended it the way Hyomin interpreted, I vehemently disagree. Such a restriction essentially robs people of either being apart of an FC or ever owning a house. The overwhelming majority of members get little say in FC decor. So they just "make do" with nothing. Hardly a fair compromise.

Or instead of arguing for half measures that hurt part of the community, people could instead argue for SE to fix housing by either releasing enough wards or implementing instance housing. That is the ONLY solution where someone doesn't get hurt.

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Originally Posted by Mahrze

4320 houses of now plus 1200 new houses would only be amazing on low pop servers, barely a breather on mid pop and large pop would be left unsatisfied.

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Which is why SE needs to retroactively force housing release.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

If the FC leader is inactive for 35 days, the FC leadership gets passed on to another person. Because of this, every person in the FC has the potential to inherit the FC and the FC house. That's why the rule exists the way it does currently. By only using the leader's account, you are creating problems down the line with your refusal to let anyone be grandfathered into anything.

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If the FC leader is gone for 35 days, you've got bigger FC issues at hand than the FC house. It's likely that that FC is already dead.

If SE really wants to go with that restriction, that's on them. IMO, it's better to tie it to the FC, and force the FC to meet minimum ownership requires and then release the house if they fail to meet those requirements.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

The only items you can transfer via housing are housing items. How in the world do you want people to transfer stuff between alts via housing? Also, alts cannot access anything in the house of another character on the same account unless they are on the other character's friends list and have been added as a tenant at the house. So, by removing them from the friends list, you are removing whatever access they had to transfer things via housing.

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Right, was thinking FC chest >.>

Better question is why you really need alts in FFXIV in the first place.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

There have been quite a few times where they fixed UI glitches and such that allowed for things like furniture to be placed in certain areas that were not intended. Sometimes players can find a new way to glitch items, sometimes they cannot. Good luck writing code to figure out which items are placed in ways where they could still be glitched there and which items are not. Talk about a waste of resources.

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I'm referring to grandfathering in things that actually matter, not these frivolities you seem fixated on.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

We currently have 18 wards for a total of 4320 houses per server. Balmung still has over 13k active players. In order to give everyone that wants a house on Balmung, they would probably need to have about 60+ wards in the game. Most of the large servers probably need about 50 or so wards. With the smallest servers probably needing probably about 30 wards. However, if they actually do allow for small, medium, and large apartments (especially if people can have access to gardening either in their apartment or elsewhere in the game), then those numbers would probably go down a lot (since there are 180 apartments per ward). By most pre-4.2 estimates, forcing a release of all the extra homes players own would give about 100-200 houses per server. When there are currently enough houses for not even 1/3 of a server to have a house, putting 100-200 houses back on the market is barely a drop in the bucket. It's not a solution. It's giving into an angry mob and not helping the situation at all.

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I think you're underestimating how many people own multiple houses. Either way, that's still 2-3 wards per servers that would help a lot.

Real issue is that FFXIV is at about half the wards it needs on the high pop servers, and with the existing houses not being well utilized, someone is going to get screwed regardless what happens, and I'd rather see greedy thieves like the Mateus couple get the shaft than all the other people that continue to get frustrated because they can't get a house or move to Shirogane (because SE stupidly hyped that up and didn't deliver enough capacity to satisfy the players).

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

Or instead of arguing for half measures that hurt part of the community, people could instead argue for SE to fix housing by either releasing enough wards or implementing instance housing. That is the ONLY solution where someone doesn't get hurt.

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SE has stated part of the issue is server side resources, and instanced housing is only going to aggravate that issue. I'm suspecting that's why SE is taking so long to add more wards.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

If the FC leader is gone for 35 days, you've got bigger FC issues at hand than the FC house. It's likely that that FC is already dead.

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That’s an unlikely scenario. It’s far more likely that the leader just left the game—be it on break or permanently—and didn’t tell anyone. Doesn’t mean that the FC itself is dying; there have been quite a few instances of posters on here and on Reddit discussing what to do when they’re in an active FC with an AWOL leader.

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Better question is why you really need alts in FFXIV in the first place.

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A lot of crafters have alts to bypass specialist requirements. Raiders have alts so that they can run with more than one static, or pug fights for practice during loot lockout periods. People that RP have alts with different storylines and different personalities. Some people make alts to run though the story again. There are a lot of reasons why people have alt characters.

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I'd rather see greedy thieves like the Mateus couple get the shaft than all the other people that continue to get frustrated because they can't get a house or move to Shirogane (because SE stupidly hyped that up and didn't deliver enough capacity to satisfy the players).

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As pretentious as the Mateus couple are, they bought their houses legitimately (as far as we are aware, there was no suspicion of RMT involved). There were no 1 FC/1 Personal rules in place when they did what they did, so you cannot accurately call them thieves. What they did was not ethically right (though that’s subjective), but they technically didn’t break any rules, nor did they steal anything.

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SE has stated part of the issue is server side resources, and instanced housing is only going to aggravate that issue. I'm suspecting that's why SE is taking so long to add more wards.

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And how so? Instances are created only when occupied—they are not constantly active like the ward are, which would cause far more strain an take up far more resources than an instanced area. SE has stated in the past that more Apartments can be added at a snap of the fingers, and Apartments are instanced. The only reason they aren’t shifting to instanced housing is because of the stubbornness to which they cling to the active wards design.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

That’s an unlikely scenario. It’s far more likely that the leader just left the game—be it on break or permanently—and didn’t tell anyone. Doesn’t mean that the FC itself is dying; there have been quite a few instances of posters on here and on Reddit discussing what to do when they’re in an active FC with an AWOL leader.

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Which means that the active FCs should already have a contingency plan in place when the leader does go AWOL that #2 should be able to take over everything.

IMO, it's better to tie the FC house to the FC and have rules around when FCs are deleted which will also help with the housing situation because these one man FCs (which, going by the housing restrictions) are not something SE wants to exist.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

A lot of crafters have alts to bypass specialist requirements. Raiders have alts so that they can run with more than one static, or pug fights for practice during loot lockout periods. People that RP have alts with different storylines and different personalities. Some people make alts to run though the story again. There are a lot of reasons why people have alt characters.

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And yet, it's quite obvious that FFXIV is designed with the developer intention of one character per server per account.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

As pretentious as the Mateus couple are, they bought their houses legitimately (as far as we are aware, there was no suspicion of RMT involved). There were no 1 FC/1 Personal rules in place when they did what they did, so you cannot accurately call them thieves. What they did was not ethically right (though that’s subjective), but they technically didn’t break any rules, nor did they steal anything.

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And with the current rules, it's in violation of the buying restrictions.

It's like arguing that a slave owner is doing nothing wrong to retain slaves when slavery has been outlawed.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And how so? Instances are created only when occupied—they are not constantly active like the ward are, which would cause far more strain an take up far more resources than an instanced area. SE has stated in the past that more Apartments can be added at a snap of the fingers, and Apartments are instanced. The only reason they aren’t shifting to instanced housing is because of the stubbornness to which they cling to the active wards design.

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Instanced housing isn't going to be this magical silver bullet that everyone is hoping for, and personally, I like the wards.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And with the current rules, it's in violation of the buying restrictions.

It's like arguing that a slave owner is doing nothing wrong to retain slaves when slavery has been outlawed.

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I'm not going to argue with you past this post because there's no point, but I want to address this.

Except they were grandfathered into the new system. By that, SE is effectively pardoning their ownership of those 30 plots. Still no rules are being broken. They will never be able to repurchase the plots should any of them auto-demolish. But they are under no "law" to relinquish their plots.


Equating owning 30 virtual houses with slavery is quite a comparison, and not a very good one either, considering it violated basic human rights where as the Mateus people do not. Best to stay away from hyperbole if you want to make arguments.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Except they were grandfathered into the new system. By that, SE is effectively pardoning their ownership of those 30 plots. Still no rules are being broken. They will never be able to repurchase the plots should any of them auto-demolish. But they are under no "law" to relinquish their plots.

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They never should have been able to buy those plots in the first place, and they shouldn't be able to keep them either.

SE should demolish all but one of their personal houses, because that will allow other players to get houses as we are in a housing shortage. They are in the wrong, and SE should take action to fix that wrong.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Which is why SE needs to retroactively force housing release.

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It wouldn't be the miracle fix you and others think it would be.

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IMO, it's better to tie it to the FC, and force the FC to meet minimum ownership requires and then release the house if they fail to meet those requirements.

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While I'm not a fan of one man FCs, there are plenty of times when it's better for a crafter to have their own FC than to try to please FC leaders to gain access to airships/ subs for materials. Although I'm not one for advocating that people lose their privileges or items in game, so even if SE implements a better way for everyone to have access to these features, I wouldn't want them to limit how many people had to be in an FC before the house was taken away. Also, would you give a grace period for this, like you have 5 days, 10 days, 45 days (the amount of the demo timer) to find a new member if your FC dipped below the threshold?

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Right, was thinking FC chest >.>

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As there are FC chests in the main cities, there is no reason to have a house just to access the FC chest. That's why there are so many RMT FCs, they want access to the chest for trades.

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Better question is why you really need alts in FFXIV in the first place.

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HyoMinPark answered this perfectly. Personally it's a cross between liking to replay the story as well as giving each of my characters a little bit of a different personality. Though I know crafters and raiders that have alts for the reasons mentioned.

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I'm referring to grandfathering in things that actually matter, not these frivolities you seem fixated on.

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"All game functionality should be consistent among all players." Either you want nothing grandfathered in and want everyone to be on the same playing field or you are making exceptions. Please tell me which it is. I find it very hard to make rationale arguments when you change stances on things. Mostly I think you just fail to grasp how difficult what you want is. Probably the biggest reason things get grandfathered in is because of what a huge pain it would be to "fix" things. Much easier (and better for everyone in the long run) to let things be grandfathered in with things sorting themselves out in the long run.

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I think you're underestimating how many people own multiple houses. Either way, that's still 2-3 wards per servers that would help a lot.

Real issue is that FFXIV is at about half the wards it needs on the high pop servers, and with the existing houses not being well utilized, someone is going to get screwed regardless what happens, and I'd rather see greedy thieves like the Mateus couple get the shaft than all the other people that continue to get frustrated because they can't get a house or move to Shirogane (because SE stupidly hyped that up and didn't deliver enough capacity to satisfy the players).

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The real issue is that 2-3 wards is a drop in the bucket of the amount of housing that is needed currently on most servers. The only reason there are still multiple plots for sale on all servers is because personal housing cannot be purchased. Once that is lifted, everything will sell out very quickly again. And I expect much crying, especially since people will have had to sit there and wait to buy open houses, only to not be able to but one in the end. Until apartments are expanded or we are given triple the amount of wards we currently have, there will always be a shortage of houses on most NA servers. And as I stated before most of the large servers probably need about 50+ wards for housing. We're currently at 18 wards. So we need about 3 times the amount we currently have. And even then Balmung (and probably Levithan and maybe a few others) will still have a shortage.

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SE has stated part of the issue is server side resources, and instanced housing is only going to aggravate that issue. I'm suspecting that's why SE is taking so long to add more wards.

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Wards are always present taking up server resources. Every house, every NPC, every item in the yards, every part of every ward is always rendered. Adding more wards takes up a lot of resources server side, which is why they normally take forever to add more. We already have a crap version of instanced housing with apartments. If they would just expand apartments like they said they were trying to do and add apartments to friend teleports that would probably help the housing crisis quite a bit.

Would it kill you to be concise?

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Originally Posted by MizArai

It wouldn't be the miracle fix you and others think it would be.

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I'm suspecting it'd free up about a third of the housing market.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

While I'm not a fan of one man FCs, there are plenty of times when it's better for a crafter to have their own FC than to try to please FC leaders to gain access to airships/ subs for materials.

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I don't know why we aren't working closer with Garlond Ironworks, or some other way to give us workshop access.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

Also, would you give a grace period for this, like you have 5 days, 10 days, 45 days (the amount of the demo timer) to find a new member if your FC dipped below the threshold?

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It should be obvious that SE should do that, and that I have to actually state such....

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Originally Posted by MizArai

As there are FC chests in the main cities, there is no reason to have a house just to access the FC chest. That's why there are so many RMT FCs, they want access to the chest for trades.

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If by RMT you mean Real Money Transaction - that should NEVER be encouraged because that's how the gil farmers make their money, rip off accounts, and do a whole host of not good things.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

"All game functionality should be consistent among all players." Either you want nothing grandfathered in and want everyone to be on the same playing field or you are making exceptions. Please tell me which it is. I find it very hard to make rationale arguments when you change stances on things. Mostly I think you just fail to grasp how difficult what you want is. Probably the biggest reason things get grandfathered in is because of what a huge pain it would be to "fix" things. Much easier (and better for everyone in the long run) to let things be grandfathered in with things sorting themselves out in the long run.

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Give me an actual example on something that matters, and not some weird bug that's basically about placing daisies in your house. Otherwise your point is frivolous.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

The real issue is that 2-3 wards is a drop in the bucket of the amount of housing that is needed currently on most servers.

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If the existing stock gets 2-3 wards per neighborhood freed up (I think it's probably higher) because of forcing release, it's still going to help the situation because that's adding in 8-12 wards back into the pool.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

The only reason there are still multiple plots for sale on all servers is because personal housing cannot be purchased. Once that is lifted, everything will sell out very quickly again. And I expect much crying, especially since people will have had to sit there and wait to buy open houses, only to not be able to but one in the end.

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That and SE needs to start adding more and more wards.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

Until apartments are expanded or we are given triple the amount of wards we currently have, there will always be a shortage of houses on most NA servers.

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Instance housing is not the solution here because that's going to put far more stress on the server than you think it will, and have load times that aren't basically instant because the server will have to fetch the instanced house from disk to load into memory, rather than just having the entire ward already in memory and being able to quickly work with the ward.

If you can't argue the technical side, please stop.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

And as I stated before most of the large servers probably need about 50+ wards for housing. We're currently at 18 wards.

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Your math sucks, we're at 4*18 = 72 wards total.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Instance housing is not the solution here because that's going to put far more stress on the server than you think it will, and have load times that aren't basically instant because the server will have to fetch the instanced house from disk to load into memory, rather than just having the entire ward already in memory and being able to quickly work with the ward.

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Except the wards being constantly loaded into memory are what's causing a lot of the problems with housing. Data isn't cheap; SE doesn't own their servers, they rent them from a company and pay for the accompanying data. Combine that with the fact that there is still a lot of 1.0 code floating around in this game being tricky to work around on occasion, the wards cause more strain that I think you realize. If the big wigs don't want to allocate more funds to purchasing more data for expansion of the wards, then we end up making do with what we have. Data isn't endless.

If the servers use SSD hardware, fetching instances takes next to no time. Instances are only loaded into memory when they're occupied; the Wards are up 24/7. Being as intricate as they are, they strain the servers, which is one reason it takes so long for them to add more, and why they can't do something like dynamic wards, where when one fills up another pops up, and so on. Again, the developers have stated multiple times the strain the wards place on the servers.

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Your math sucks, we're at 4*18 = 72 wards total.

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I'm fairly certain they were meaning we would need 50 wards per district, where as right now we're at 18 per district. Not just 18 total.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Your math sucks, we're at 4*18 = 72 wards total.

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I think you just missed the entire point of their explanation and tried to be cheeky with this math reply and being pedantic about it.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

If you can't argue the technical side, please stop.

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With windows 32-bit limitations, you can explain it with quantum computing and those 32-bit limitations and spaghetti code will make your explanation moot. Instanced housing -could- be the solution, more houses more often is -another potential- solution, trying to take houses form people who already have multiple ones without a good outcome is not a solution. If you can't explain it in simple terms, you don't understand it.

I would say your reading comprehension is the issue...not their math skills.

Stop complaining and wait for auto demolition to kick in and you will get your house. The way you argue it seems like this is a matter of national security.

Also your slave owner comparison is simply atrocious and shows just how extreme you are in your view if you feel that way. In my opinion housing is a prestige item and should be a scarce resource. SE is under no obligation to ensure all people GET all content. Their obligation is to give players an opportunity to get all content. They have done that. Stop being a salty beach.