SCH adlo and succor

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

You've said the class doesn't work. I'm saying that nobody has any problem clearing Omega Savage with SCH and some of the high parses from O4S have a SCH in the party.

That N.AST performs better as a shielder than SCH? Well bad luck, WHM used to be the regen healer and D.AST has more regens.

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I'm assuming their point was that it's not good class design when the only thing making SCH viable is the bandaid fixes it got recently. Which I think we can all agree on is true, there is no way people would be taking 4.0 SCH in raids if they were serious about progression. At least not for O3/4s. The job is viable, it's good but it's also a valid opinion for people to speculate that it's still the worst out of the three healers.

Your last sentence is also just petty. This isn't some competition as you're trying to make it out. All that the good healer mains want is for the three jobs to remain balanced, but for them to also maintain some identity and fun in playstyle.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

That N.AST performs better as a shielder than SCH? Well bad luck, WHM used to be the regen healer and D.AST has more regens.

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Think that kind of highlights why ast is so op. Better at shielding than a scholar. Better at regens than a whm. Great utility and dps It's ridiculously strong on all fronts.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

You've said the class doesn't work. I'm saying that nobody has any problem clearing Omega Savage with SCH and some of the high parses from O4S have a SCH in the party.

That N.AST performs better as a shielder than SCH? Well bad luck, WHM used to be the regen healer and D.AST has more regens.

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I said it doesn't work as a class, but you would have to read beyond "how can I tell this player I never played with he is bad from what he wrote" to get what it means.
You can't justifify anything by high-end player do this, or I could just ask any DPS a cros a 4k to 5k kind of performance. I'm actually progressing well in the content and I'm confident I can and will certainly clear it. It won't change how broken by design, if "as a class" or even "as a fight" bother you so much. It's not working, it was just made to work.

Are you really playing healer ? All about what you say is "someone else did this", but I'm talking from my experience with classes I've actually played in basically every content possible in this patch. Because like all of those people that try to make a point just because they want to make a point, you start by the absurd idea that healers are opposed to each, while to real question is how the synergize with each other. Absolutly anyone playing healer get that and "NocAST doesn't have HoT" or "you can't use earthly star as an instant AoE heal" doesn't exist in the game. Last time it was "you can use lustrate three time in a raw so SCH kit is stronger" juste where are you searching those absurd arguments ?
No one does that unless they start to slam they keyboard in panic, wich mean any class kit possible isn't really what matters in this situation.

Also, WHM never was the regen job and AST HoT potencies are all under the WHM ones. Even with diurnal new potency buff.

They way you talk about class design doesn't take into consideration the game it self, it's just floating consideration you use to take a condescending tone. How can every talk about SCH, and healer for what it worth, end up like that ? You guys are really goddamn toxic, please get a clue about it.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

-snip-

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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/9299257/

http://i.imgur.com/ta9CZH2.gif

> Hasn't leveled SCH to 70
> Comes into a SCH thread throwing shade
> Thinks Savage Players are the same as regular-ass dungeoneers
>MFW

Sit down son. The Scholar Mains are talking.

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

I'm assuming their point was that it's not good class design when the only thing making SCH viable is the bandaid fixes it got recently. Which I think we can all agree on is true, there is no way people would be taking 4.0 SCH in raids if they were serious about progression. At least not for O3/4s. The job is viable, it's good but it's also a valid opinion for people to speculate that it's still the worst out of the three healers.

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O4S World 3rd was WHM/SCH (2nd was only a few seconds faster) by Stellarium on Gilgamesh. Please sit down.

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Originally Posted by technole

O4S World 3rd was WHM/SCH (2nd was only a few seconds faster) by Stellarium on Gilgamesh. Please sit down.

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"The top 1% of players are completely indicative of the entire playerbase and job balancing."

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Originally Posted by technole

O4S World 3rd was WHM/SCH (2nd was only a few seconds faster) by Stellarium on Gilgamesh. Please sit down.

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Just please try to understand : it's not the point.

you can beat someone with a chair on a wrestling ring, it's not what chair are made for. You can clear with SCH and if you want to play with it, you can play with, but it's kit has a lot of inconsistencies that makes it hard to do its job.
Its DPS is a good addition to a party if you can do with the missing HPS having a SCH bring, and miasma 2 is interesting (even though point blank cast makes no sense) but a lot of the kit feel clunky at best.

I just want a job where I can press the skill i want to press at the moment I want because I think it how I'm gonna contribute to the fight and not something were I press the OP boutton because it's only obvious good thing to do.

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

"The top 1% of players are completely indicative of the entire playerbase and job balancing."

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I was responding to serious progression, and the hardcore used SCH just fine. Just like how AST was World 3rd in Midas with a JP group, and World 1st in Creator with Angered. All the while when people were still saying everyone needed a White Mage.

Guess what? All three healers have a pretty balanced clear rate of all of Deltascape Savage, the most balanced since AST was introduced in HW. No healer is clearly lagging behind. Last tier it was White Mage was the least-used, and that's mostly because of the Balance card meta and healing requirements were pretty lax.

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Originally Posted by technole

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And I am saying that people at the apex of skill and knowledge can make pretty much any job work. It's when they can't that the Job is major trouble. I am also going to say that, yeah, of course a SCH seems exceptionally strong in a raid setting - they're heavily tuned to that environment, perhaps more so than any other job (maybe except SMN). A lot of SCH's healing potential assumes that you have a co-healer. When you don't, SCH notably suffers with the high cost and low effectiveness of their main source of healing.

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Originally Posted by technole

O4S World 3rd was WHM/SCH (2nd was only a few seconds faster) by Stellarium on Gilgamesh. Please sit down.

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Except if you'd actually read, I didn't at any point say that SCH was a bad job. In fact I even said it was good, alongside the other two healers.

The points I made were that it would be nicer for the job to get buffs in relation to mitigation and the Faerie as these are aspects that used to make the job unique. I also mentioned that in order to do this it would make sense for SCH to get nerfed in other areas, like Indom for example.

If you're going to make pointless contributions, at least read up before you do so.

dissipation doesn't remove your fairy gauge stacks btw

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Originally Posted by Kabzy

Except if you'd actually read, I didn't at any point say that SCH was a bad job. In fact I even said it was good, alongside the other two healers.

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You've changed your wording that it's the worst of the healers, and that it's only viable. That's a bit of a stretch.

It was already OP since the beginning of the job. A lot of people still think today that Scholar is just a shield healer with a fairy, when it's now the best oGCD healer that contributes the most raid DPS since the balance nerf. It has the most one-buttons for almost every mechanical solution, and can assist any of the other healers seamlessly. It does however have a higher skill ceiling, and to get as-much or better mitigation than a Noct Astro. It is now #2 in MP management with Astro now the last, when it used to be White Mage. So worst and viable is complete non-sense.

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Originally Posted by technole

It is now #2 in MP management with Astro now the last, when it used to be White Mage.

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...when DPSing.

If Scholar has to start using their GCD heals they leap right into deal last.

Scholar is fine for content with 2 healers since the other healer can make up for Scholar avoiding his GCD heals like the plaque, but though not as frequent, Scholar has some gigantic issues solo healing because of how absurdly high priced his GCD heals. Even outside of solo healing, double Scholar is a thing in matchmaking. Scholar still needs the ability to main heal to some degree in case the situation calls for it, but right now it's very difficult when Scholar is punished so heavily for touching his GCD heals outside of Physic.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

...when DPSing.

If Scholar has to start using their GCD heals they leap right into deal last.

Scholar is fine for content with 2 healers since the other healer can make up for Scholar avoiding his GCD heals like the plaque, but though not as frequent, Scholar has some gigantic issues solo healing because of how absurdly high priced his GCD heals. Even outside of solo healing, double Scholar is a thing in matchmaking. Scholar still needs the ability to main heal to some degree in case the situation calls for it, but right now it's very difficult when Scholar is punished so heavily for touching his GCD heals outside of Physic.

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More like what are you doing that requires so much over-spamming of Adlo/Succor. It's no different if you were to spam Cure II on WHM. The problem is some have not adjusted to the fact that MP management is real and not like the Creator days where SCH got away with minimum PIE builds as-possible.

Even so, as I have mentioned many times around the forum, the job relies on making aggressive use of Aetherflow to stay-afloat along with Lucid because of the quick trait. That encourages one-button heals, which is playing the job at it's potential. If you want to reliably DPS and heal in savage, there is a minimum threshold to meet.

Even in a Double SCH scenario you have enough one-buttons to make that not painful with some coordination, and double Eos is good but too many not-so-good SCHs just think one healer has Eos that a 2nd isn't worth such. Back in ARR and Coil days with no shield removal was the worst, but double Eos did a lot of heavy lifting there too.

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Originally Posted by technole

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AST MP management seem fine.

There's piety absolutly everywhere on late game gear and extended lucid dream generally get you rolling for most of the fight. Starting to get into emergency strategies with SCH is generally way scarier for your mana pool, espacially when doing a lot of miasma 2 weaving (wich is something you want to do if you want your wonderful teamate to notice you and finally tell you want you always wanted to hear : "OMG STOP DPS YOU NOOB UR HEALER NOT DPS").

Also what you say just a "no you" version of what was written before. SCH is used because indo, a skill already powerful, got buffed to absurdity. Its power went up by or fourth and cooldown went down by a third. It's not that SCH have a skill for all situation, it's that SCH got indo every 30 sec. Eos is more of a healer than SCH actually is. And just the fact that we're talking about SCH not even considering Eos as possibility but as SCH basic toolkit show how much there's a problem.

On mitigation matter, I'm not sure how every miss the fact NocAST's AspHelios isn't just stronger than succor : it's on demand. It's a ~7k damage reduction on every one and on every thing, and that's a lot. Your hard cast heal are also better thank to the 15% potency buff for Noc Theme. No instant ? What about it, WHM have a lot of them and earthly star is a strong addition to the fight. Even more, SCH/NocAST arn't even competing each other anymore when you don't use succor, you can just pick both if you that spread addlo and magic defense buff every 2min. HoT arn't as effective as those constently asks you to top every one ASAP with fewer break should make whispering down 35% uptime enough.

But saying it's playable still end in the same conclusion : SCH is a indo with a fairy.
And this isn't what SCH is about, this what players make of it.

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Originally Posted by technole

It's no different if you were to spam Cure II on WHM. The problem is some have not adjusted to the fact that MP management is real and not like the Creator days where SCH got away with minimum PIE builds as-possible.

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It's absolutely different. Aldo is 50% more MP and recovers 100 potency less.

If you go OOM spamming cure II on a White Mage, a job you yourself said has the best MP management of the 3, how much worse do you think it is on a job that has worse MP management with a spell that costs 50% more and recovers 100 potency less...

I mean we're almost 2 months after the launch of Stormblood. 'Scholars are just used to spamming Aldo with 0 piety builds' is hardly an argument anymore. Of course spamming Aldo is ridiculously less than ideal, but it's necessary in some situations. Expert dungeons are probably the most glaring example. Stupid tanks that don't know how to use cooldowns properly pulling more than they should requires Cure II spam. Though expensive Whm and Ast can handle this, Scholar on the other hand has a MUCH higher chance of OOMing before the fight is over.

Asking for Scholar's GCD heals to not be half the price of raise isn't asking to break the class >.>

Spamming Adlo is never warranted, that's horrible advice. There isn't a single situation where you ever need to do that. You can do it to supplement or help where tank cooldowns don't exist, but it's not simply as a re-apply when shields are broken. You'd be OOM even back in ARR or Heavensward if you did the same thing.

If you are talking a dungeon setting even with tanks that forget mitigation cooldowns exists, you should be using Rouse+Whispering Dawn practically on-cooldown every pull, using Lustrate just get to get in safe range as-needed (not this burn all 3 stacks to 100% HP, that's not necessary Embrace can do that). Build the fairy gauge aggressively, and for all mega-pulls you should have enough in the gauge to solely be using Aetherpact while getting DoTs/Bane/AoE damage going to fry the suckers. Your job is to make full use of that gauge, it's mega-potent for any pull. The QoL enhancements make it even more easier to use and if the tank likes to move a bit further away because of AoEs.

Embrace as-a-button (yes you should have this as a spam button), and Physick is your last spam heal if you need it. Like the pull has to be so outrageous that it's going to be ogre if you don't use those two buttons.

I'm sorry, but you can't just justify we need to be able to spam Adlo at 50% cost to keep subpar players alive, the Scholar kit can certainly handle all the mega-pulls possible.

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Originally Posted by technole

I'm sorry, but you can't just justify we need to be able to spam Adlo at 50% cost to keep subpar players alive, the Scholar kit can certainly handle all the mega-pulls possible.

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WE DON'T WANT TO SPAM THEM. WE WANT TO BE ABLE TO USE THEM WITHOUT THEM TAKING SUCH A HUGE CHUNK OF OUR MP PULL. WE DON'T WANT TO FEEL PUNISHED FOR DOING OUR JOB OF PREPARING FOR INCOMING DAMAGE WITH THE MAIN REASON I'M THERE. With these spells so expensive, two of our trademark spells that we learn so early in our kit are borderline useless because it's not feasible to use. It was never a good idea to spam them, unless you had to because of mechanics, since the healing part of the spell was very small. However, it helped your co-healer with their healing since everyone had more essential HP.

I used to say, "A good SCH helped with WHM's MP management." Our management used to be fantastic, while the WHM tended to struggle. With our shields, a WHM should have needed to use less MP themselves, so that was less healing they had to do. It was still mostly true in HW, only SCHs let even more of the healing bulk fall on the other guy since the DPSing healer meta really took off. However, now, in SB, with Adlo and Succor so expensive and inefficient, we want to avoid those spells like the plague, which means more of the healing bulk falls on WHM and AST. Sure, our healing cooldowns are fantastic, but, if none of them are up, the SCH suffers immensely. You can argue in "not using them badly", but you're also under the assumption that everything is running perfectly and no one messes up. In the speedrunning meta that people worship as the Bible, yeah, SCH is fine. But, in progression? I feel like, "Why am I here when I would have a much easier time on a different job?" At this point, the only reason to have a SCH is because the fairy is still decent and SCH's dps is still pretty good and consistent. However, for the most part, the other two healers feel easier and have a generally larger reward for far less effort.

TL;DR: WE DON'T WANT TO BE BROKEN. WE DON'T WANT TO BE PUNISHED FOR DOING OUR JOBS OF SHIELDING THE PARTY.

You are not punished for doing the job correctly, and we aren't talking speed runs. Even in normal prog, some tend to over heal because they aren't aware of damage, or perhaps the unknown. That's okay, you usually will figure out your MP cooldown situation over time. When is Lucid back up, so I just energy drain at this spot and get Aetherflow back on CD right now because there is no mechanic I need this stack or this many.

Like in O3S I'm sure everyone's first thought is to shield everyone for the Folio library mechanic. But you find out the damage is a flat 55% HP and it goes through shields. So you learn you probably shouldn't pre-shield there and could just Indom after the damage hits, and/or use regens along with other healer, etc. Maybe for this upcoming wave, I don't have Whispering Dawn up, I'll just use a Succor. That will heal some damage and the shields will cover the next hitting mechanic.

In a raid setting it's not about what cooldowns you have, but also using the best cooldown for the situation between both healers. Tanks do the same thing, there isn't just one tank immunity in the party, there are two. So tank swapping allows more to be used. Healers do the same in a sense with things like Benediction, ED, Lustrates. Who has something up to cover a buster. If no immunity, obviously the SCH should Adlo the Critical Hits. Tank is going to use Living Dead? The White Mage handles that, no Adlo needed. But once again, you aren't spamming that skill for auto attack damage, you are using Adlo for buster damage or on someone who could be taking more damage than their HP warrants. Regen should be used, whether that is Embrace or AB.

There is also the death weakness changes, people with multiple raises don't require Adlo saves anymore to stay alive since their HP doesn't get to severely low levels for mechanics, can just throw an Excog to get a bigger heal up, or manually heal if-needed.

As for Succor, you do use it quite a bit in Deltascape Savage this tier, but it's so spread out on mechanic usage, and MP economy, that once again you won't be spamming it anywhere. Like O4S ExDeath is about what 12 or so times in a less than 5 minute fight, Neo ExDeath can be 40+ for about 12 minutes.

I love how you all assume that because I want the mp costs on Adlo and Succor to be reasonable, I clearly don't know how to play SCH, and I should be bowing to you all mighty ones. I wouldn't be so feverently advocating the reduction if I didn't. I don't Adlo Critical Hit because Adlo is freaking expensive and, for the most part, Excog's cooldown is spaced enough that it's up for most Critical Hits. Dimensional Wave? Hey, I have Rouse+Whispering Dawn! Dimensional Wave spam during the final add phase? Rouse+Whispering Dawn+Fey's Covenant+Fey's Illumination with maybe one Succor or two in there. The other healer's got it covered.

You even mention in the last paragraph about "MP economy" and it doesn't cross your mind that, y'know, Adlo and Succor are too costly to use 99% of the time?

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Originally Posted by technole

It's no different if you were to spam Cure II on WHM.

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WHM can spam Cure II for days, what are you on about? Unless you need to frequently cast Cure IIIs there's little reason to ever eschew the use of Cure II. It's a far cry from the situation SCH is in right now.

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Originally Posted by Trunks

WHM can spam Cure II for days, what are you on about? Unless you need to frequently cast Cure IIIs there's little reason to ever eschew the use of Cure II. It's a far cry from the situation SCH is in right now.

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Level 70 Cure 1 600MP, Cure 2 1200MP vs Cure3 2280. There is little reason to spam a Tier 2 heal, when regen is the best course for MP efficiency unless there is that much of a heal issue. But that was why the media tour build White Mage was terrible to proc lilies, it was encouraging a completely inefficient method for procs.

Scholar doesn't spam an Adlo, ever. I'm sorry, but there are people out there actually playing SCH like a WHM with illogical manual heal choices or know how to use the kit when in a pickle. So they don't keep Aetherflow on cooldown, use Lucid, or use free Eos cooldowns enough, and want to complain they are out of MP? When they really should question why aren't they using half of their kit properly. I've seen it out there, and it's pretty sickening. That's not a job issue this time though, it's just more punishing if you don't play your Aetherflow choices correctly. The revised trait is really good, just you won't see it's light of day if you just sit on that Aetherflow forever.

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Originally Posted by technole

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Just no.

You can't say "but there's bad SCH out there !" just after saying something like "casting two succor per minute is fine". Because it's not. At SB realse, I would get oom from just keeping DoT up and spamming broil 2 on fate boss without using lucid dreaming. And the most costly of them all didn't exist yet.
So first thing first, you don't go oom just because of heal spamming, DPS is what cost MP as SCH. And you're the one saying that DPS matter as SCH, wich is no wrong but only something read and not something you did. Second, casting 2 succor in a minute is bad MP management and will get you oom. There's few reason to cast not only because its cost but also its innefficiency : succor shield are 3k, or 4k at max. Unless you would die for that kind of damage (wich is hard to tell in advance, in case someone else who absolutly never played healer want to argue about this) you will get much more benefit from just using indo after.

Actually, there's only three reason for any SCH ever to not use indo instead of anything else : someone is gonna die to incoming damage, indo is on CD or you don't have eather flow. In all other situation indo > everything. It pretty much works the same way for solo target heal and lustrate, except exco' can be used beforehand. Fairy Union is nothing more than buffed fairy tick that lock fairy skills (wich are better), it can be used as pseudo single target HoT but its main function is making the fairy focus on one target, not keep anything alive (because it won't keep anything alive really long). Rouse + whispering dawn is better than fairy union since fairy will keep healing through it and both will be buffed. Again, you may only have to use it if everything else is on cooldown, something that doesn't happen a lot, knowing its effect is meager.

It may require a pretty strong stuff, but you can heal through dungeon with basically exco (and addlo if the tank is spacing out) on pull, then spaced lustrate between miasma 2 cast. Whispering dawn in advance for moment where eatherflow will be on CD. And that's it folks, everything else serves no purpose. Most boss barely ask any heal but when it does, then it's the same with indo instead of lustrate.
I sometime read that the new SCH is harder to play, but its faceroll is just less intuitive to get.

They're trying to move SCH away from being a mitigation healer to being a healer more focused on OGCD and fairy usage, that's why the MP cost of their GCD heals are so high. When considering the net worth of things like excogitation and fey union to not only your dps but your co-healer's dps it's pretty understandable why adlo and succor are so expensive; there are plenty of occasions where a well placed union or ex has saved my co 3-4 healing GCDs which directly translated into 3-4 stone IVs. That being said I don't really see an issue with MP management while having to push out more shields and rezzes, if anything the only way I'll see myself dry is if I abuse miasma II one too many times for weaving.

Except that playstyle wasn't pushed forward until 4.06 and Miasma 2 (wich was added in response to SCH losing too much AoE DPS in dungeon), and the players are the one who did that.

The most plausible reason behing new MP management is lucid dream addition in SCH's kit. There is no other to both up shields MP cost and lower eatherflow MP gain at the same time otherwise.
The new trait is here because a lot of healer players voiced against RNG based traits that makes some skill impossible to plan ahead, all helaers were modified that way (maybe except AST ? I'm not sure, its 68 trait serves no purpose anyway).

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

They're trying to move SCH away from being a mitigation healer to being a healer more focused on OGCD and fairy usage, that's why the MP cost of their GCD heals are so high.

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I am under the impression that ogcd heals are panic buttons or cds given the fact that the aetherflow mechanic has limited charges. As for fairy usage, yea maybe in an ideal world where Embrace isn't laughably weak and fairies cast commands when told to and not after they finish whatever they're doing. If SE want schs to be more of a raw healer then Physick needs a serious buff, and Emergency Tactics needs to be activated instantly instead of .5 seconds after you activate it (it has a delay quite like dot application, which is very noticeable when you wait to use Bane).

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

When considering the net worth of things like excogitation and fey union to not only your dps but your co-healer's dps it's pretty understandable why adlo and succor are so expensive

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Aldo and Succor are standard healing spells, Excogitation and Fey Union are cds...and they're cds with very specific uses. They're not like Whispering Dawn which is useful in basically any situation with damage. Never mind the amount of ramp up time Fey Union has because you need to charge it. Unless you are fortunate enough to have a lot of trash before a boss you won't have Fey Union on the pull. They do not make up for the obscene mana costs of Aldo and Succor.

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Originally Posted by CreinCrein

That being said I don't really see an issue with MP management while having to push out more shields and rezzes, if anything the only way I'll see myself dry is if I abuse miasma II one too many times for weaving.

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Play whm and ast at the same lvl and you'll truly understand how abysmal sch mana efficiency is right now. As sch, if I want to do a respectable amount of dps along with healing my mana goes down quickly. Doing the same as whm...oh god I hover between feeling liberated from having so much mana to play with and being utterly disgusted because my sch needs to be handled so carefully to not go completely dry. Ast has very noticeably better mana efficiency than sch, but the gap isn't as big as it is with whm.

"Abysmal" is an extremely gross over-exaggeration, and I do dabble in whm and ast so I know how their resource management feels. I've cleared the raid tier within the first week and there wasn't a single situation where I was bottoming out or starved on mana unless it was a run with 10+ deaths. This is with 320 tanks being smashed into the ground by literally everything including autos during progression, very liberal healing, and a lot of dps uptime. 80% of your healing is done through Eos and OGCDs if you play to the strengths of the class; healing that is for the most part, completely free. Encounters are also scripted, well placed excogs and unions cash out; I use them liberally and you get charges like crazy if you aggressively use your aetherflow.

So basically Scholar doesn't have any MP issues when they don't use their MP to heal

Well, this is basically how you play SCH currently anyway.

I literally just said I went through progression without many mana issues healing liberally while pushing dps and that's what you got from it? Anyways, regardless it is how you play the class optimally and has remained so since time.

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Originally Posted by technole

Level 70 Cure 1 600MP, Cure 2 1200MP vs Cure3 2280. There is little reason to spam a Tier 2 heal, when regen is the best course for MP efficiency unless there is that much of a heal issue. But that was why the media tour build White Mage was terrible to proc lilies, it was encouraging a completely inefficient method for procs.

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Cure is more MP efficient but not more GCD efficient. When I pre-cast on a tank to bring their HP up after a tank buster, I sure don't use dinky old Cure. The term "MP efficiency" isn't even in the WHM vocabulary. Obviously, HOTs are awesome. But sometimes you do have to direct heal (e.g., when tank is getting hit by a dozen mobs at once) and I really don't see how anyone can peg WHM as anything other than a major outlier in this regard. You can say 'L2P' until you're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is that WHM doesn't really need to L2P, and pointing to this disparity is a valid criticism.

I'm really surprised when I read that sch has mana issues...whenever I use SCH for something I spend most of the time dpsing. I even use miasma 2 for ED weaving and spam it in dungeons after using bane and I've never had any mp issue whatsoever. You can find tons of vids on YouTube of savage clears where sch dps whenever they don't have to heal and hava no mp issue whatsoever.

Yeah, SCH doesn't have MP issues. The points that Crein and I have mentioned is really the reason why. If you aren't living off Aetherflow aggressiveness and all the free healing that the kit offers, you aren't playing the job to it's potential. If that pink icon isn't on cool down most of the time you better have a good reason why. The Scholar only denies themselves more free healing the longer they let it sit there.

I've also not had any issue in Savage minimum ilevel progression since week one. I even mentioned how many times you'll end up using Succor in O4S ExDeath and Neo, and it won't be an issue because of all the MP you'll generate using Aetherflow skills quite often for mechanics.

Just some illogical posters that don't do any savage content like to come out and say "well you have another healer". Scholar free healing is the reason why the other healer doesn't have a large burden in raiding. You aren't being a good raid healer if you are making your partner do all the work, it's about being complimentary. Indom and Whispering Dawn have always been the bread-and-butter.

Well whether someone thinks sch has mana issues or not one fact remains; its mana efficiency is very noticeably lower than whm and ast. So either sch is due some buffs or ast and whm are due some nerfs.

And a disclaimer before anyone gets any ideas: I still main sch and still think it is still viable, but presently sch demands a much more careful playstyle than whm and ast. There is definitely some mana efficiency imbalance among the three healers.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Well whether someone thinks sch has mana issues or not one fact remains; its mana efficiency is very noticeably lower than whm and ast. So either sch is due some buffs or ast and whm are due some nerfs

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Actually whm is the only one with superior mana efficiency, mainly thanks to thin air. Don't forget that a significant amount of sch hps comes from eos for free. And still, whm infinite mp wasn't enough to make it meta. At the end of the day, you only need enough mp to "always be casting". Anything more than that is useless. And sch has enough mp to do that and also res a couple of times with no risk of running oom.

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Originally Posted by technole

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To be honnest, I think it's pointless to continue by that point.

You keep derailling into everything just to hammer your "u bad healer !" nail, it's pointless. You use out of context indirect quote it the complete opposite meaning and will validate some random dungeon playing guy to say in the next second that every you don't like just doesn't do raid as healer. But seriously, it grounding the number of people that just come here to tell everyone they don't know how to play just because it feel good for their ego.

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Originally Posted by technole

Snip.

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Let's assume for a second personal experience actually matters on the subject and that everyone has the exact same playing experience.
That would mean that all AST should be glued to Noct Sect because 1 person was able to solo heal O4S and that all ASTs should be as good as that person. Yeah, that seems 100% fair and reasonable.

Back in reality, we have issues because
A) People are still learning the class. The changes in SB made SCH play completely differently than it was in HW so people are still getting used to the changes, which have been fairly jarring to say the least.
B) Not everyone plays the same way. Bad Tanks that don't pop CDs, people that eat floor paint for breakfast, lunch and dinner, etc all mean that, even with SCH's more liberal use of Aetherflow abilities, you still only have 3 answers ever 45 seconds to those issues (outside Dissipation use). This is in the outright best case scenario if you haven't used skills like Bane or Miasma2+ED weaves to use up stacks prior to shit hitting the fan. SCH is discouraged to use their GCD abilities to heal because they cost an arm and a leg to do or are the lackluster heal of Physick.
C) Fairy abilities are clunky. Even with macros, the fairy just absolutely insists on finishing whatever it is doing before doing as you command and it makes the job just that much more difficult to play perfectly because you have to account for the stupidity of its AI on top of mechanics.

I honestly spam succor more often than I need to and I still never run out of mana unless I need to res multiple people and forget to lucid dreaming.

Indom + Succor = 800 pot for 2280 mana + 1 GCD's (plus whatever fairy gives you)

Medica + assize + medica = 900 pot for 3360 mana + 2 GCD's

Which one would you honestly rather prefer?

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Originally Posted by Dregenfox

I honestly spam succor more often than I need to and I still never run out of mana unless I need to res multiple people and forget to lucid dreaming.

Indom + Succor = 800 pot for 2280 mana + 1 GCD's (plus whatever fairy gives you)

Medica + assize + medica = 900 pot for 3360 mana + 2 GCD's

Which one would you honestly rather prefer?

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And more of the same.

It's indo being overtuned that you're talking about here, not succors being fine. And it's either one or the other, especially for SCH and WHM, it's both of them. Unless you're in dungeon and any of that matters.

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Originally Posted by Vyriah

And more of the same.

It's indo being overtuned that you're talking about here, not succors being fine. And it's either one or the other, especially for SCH and WHM, it's both of them. Unless you're in dungeon and any of that matters.

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It's not "overtuned"...Indo, lustrate, and Excog are balanced like that on purpose to compensate for succor/adlo. Lustrate is a 600 pot oGCD on a 1s cooldown...

But honestly I would fully support lowering succor's mana cost as long as the WHM's don't complain about their viability in raids.