Why is StormBlood full of dps that never aoe?

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

Snip.

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Nope, I know precisely what I'm doing as a MCH! It's not the best at damage, but it remains one of my favorite jobs to play! Unfortunately, MCH's only real AoE is overheated FT and OH buffed spread shot... though since you're only 57, I'm not surprised you don't know. I've done the math, and compared to 14k WF, none of MCH's oGCD's are worth using in an AoE situation due to all being single target.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Nope, I know precisely what I'm doing as a MCH!

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Not according to the things you've said in this thread. Here ya go:

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Spread_Shot

Bad dps are worse for a tank/healer. I usually pull huge groups and I know I can rotate my defensive cooldowns just right to survive if dps will do AOE damage and kill fast, and then I see RDM don't Scatter and SAM with full TP, and first pack taking 3-4 minutes to kill draining all healer resoources and all my cooldowns which I've planned to use on next pack...
And then I just leave before the first boss. I can't stand people not knowing how to press more than 2 buttons anymore.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Because AoE has been neutered and I don't consider the heightened cost to be worth it for a 60-40 potency attack when my normal attacks hit for 200+.

About the only AoE I do are Bishop and Flamethrower unless we have like 12 mobs lined up. It's just not worth it for a measly 80 potency AoE that has such big drop.

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No surprise here lul.

All these people complaining about nerfed AoE and all yet pretty much every dungeon above lvl50 you can clear in less than 20 minutes with competent people...

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Nope, I know precisely what I'm doing as a MCH! It's not the best at damage, but it remains one of my favorite jobs to play! Unfortunately, MCH's only real AoE is overheated FT and OH buffed spread shot... though since you're only 57, I'm not surprised you don't know. I've done the math, and compared to 14k WF, none of MCH's oGCD's are worth using in an AoE situation due to all being single target.

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You clearly sound like you are the one not knowing what you are doing.

One of my very best run when farming the level 63 dungeon was something around 17 minutes with me as MCH and a melee (ninja it was i think). The tank and healer were extremely good too and we melted everything super quickly...

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Nope, I know precisely what I'm doing as a MCH!

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You don't.

This is an official guide posted in the lodestone, it shows all the tooltips you didn't read http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/machinist/

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Gauss Round, Rapid Fire, Reload, QR, BS, Heated Shots, Hyper Charge, Reassemble VS 80 potency spread shot with fall off, and overheated Flamethrower. MCH GCD AoE is factually worthless. The 40 potency also is accounting for the GCD+HS+GB. The only point MCH AoE nears decent is when you have Flamethrower boosted to its Max.

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Gauss round can be used while hitting spread shot.

Rapid fire can be used with spread shot.

Reload will increase the damage of spread shot

Quick reload will increase the damage of spread shot.

Hypercharge is better used on bishop if it's a big pull.

Spread shot has no fall off, it's a flat 80 potency, or 105 potency with bullets.

So your entire argument is only heated shots vs spread shot and heated shots are not stronger than spread shot when you have 5 enemies, again you're hitting 400 potency every time you hit that button, you won't hit 400 potency every time you hit heated shots.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Because a 1k WF does anything good? Gauss is worthless in AoE, so it's a waste of time to hit it. Wildfire is factually worthless unless you can hit at least 12k. And using Ammo for non Heated shots is a huge DPS loss in every single situation.

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Gauss round costs nothing to use between each aoe, it's literally free damage.

My AoE rule is: if there are more than 4 mobs I AoE. If not, I find it's more efficient for both dps to focus one mob down at a time because that way they will die faster than if I run my self dry of tp trying to AoE 3 mobs, using invigorate, and then not having invigorate for the next set of 3 or 4 mobs. Usually the tank will do a big pull followed by another big pull. I've already used invigorate on the first big pull and now i'm at 0 tp on the 2nd big pull, doing a single target rotation slowly cause i'm waiting for tp to regen back to 60 for every skill.

I'd honestly rather SE remove AoE skills from the game rather than them making it so AoE have drop offs. Not all AoE have drop offs mind you. Just the mage ones and maybe SAM it think? Maybe SE was trying to discourage huge pulls, but people will always try to speed run stuff they have to do over and over so they may as well just let all AoE do their full damage to all the mobs. just lower the potency instead of drop offs.

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Originally Posted by Celef

I've always been told the opposite oO
That aoes in this game suck and better to target 1 mob, did people lie to me ? ^^"
(crappy wanna be DPS trying to learn)

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Sorry I missed your post, it's always good to try to learn! :D

It's always good to spend your resources in AoE damage if the tank is pulling multiple groups, but each job has a number of mobs before AoE is more effective than single target, for most jobs this number revolves between 3 and 5.

Using red mage as example and assuming the tank pulled 6 monsters.

In 2 global cooldowns, which one would do better damage:

Jolt 2 + veraero (that's 240 potency + 300 potency)

Or

Scatter + scatter (100 potency x 6 enemies, twice)?

The first is doing a total of 540 potency of damage, the second is doing 1200 potency of damage, by using aoes you already did over twice the damage you would have done using single target skills.

Another example is Ninja, in 3 GCDs using spinning edge (150p) gust slash (200p) and aeolian edge (340p)

vs

3 times death blossom (110 potency per enemy)

Your single target combo would do 710 total potency, but using those 3 GCDs on death blossom against 6 enemies would give you total 1980 potency, almost 3 times the amount of damage.

Never really ran into issues with people not using AoE in 4+ deep trash pulls in leveling dungeons and whatnot. Actually have a bigger problem with co-Melee DPS not knowing what Goad is in those situations.

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Originally Posted by Burningskull

My AoE rule is: if there are more than 4 mobs I AoE.

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Depends on the AoE, assuming you're talking about level 70 monk, arm of the destroyer yeah it's not worth to use at all until after 5 enemies, but you can definitely sustain rockbreaker alone as replacement for snap punch for 2+ enemies, or 3+ if you want to be more conservative with TP.

After SB monk has zero TP issues in normal gameplay, the cost of most skills is no longer 60 TP, so getting your TP low is not as much of a problem as other jobs.

Why I don't use Aoe?
Because the tank won't pull more than 3 mobs at a time and it's not worth it. No mistake, I think the tank should pull as much as he's comfortable with, I won't complain about them only pulling 3 mobs, but then don't complain about me not wasting my mp on Aoe either, please.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

Why I don't use Aoe?
Because the tank won't pull more than 3 mobs at a time and it's not worth it.

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3 or more mobs is just what you need to AoE. 2 mobs you focus one down then the other, basic rules.

I do ask the dps to AoE if I notice that they are not.
I realized not many people understand the term of "AoE" so I type the ability name in party chat for their job.

Dps should be aoe-ing but there is situations that it is just quicker to single target such as if a certain enemy needs to go down faster or if there is 3 targets or less.
Blm, Red Mage and Smn should aoe if there is 4+ targets, even when i do play Ninja i aoe.

I find that tanks usually pull sometimes more than they should, drain all healers mp or die. There shouldn't be some meta to have to AoE anyways. What can be done turns into always done, and that's boring.

Tank trait: Brittle: Defense/damage is drastically reduced in when x amount of enemies attack.

Buff single target damage

Or Nerf AoE damage

Rant threads about how people play end. Not really, then the rants will be about rotations or why is damage being punished.

ive run into a lot of RDMs who, when asked why they dont AoE, reply that RDM AoE is awful.

I then explain how powerful Scatter (due to the duality trait) and enchanted moulinet are. And ofc Contre Sixte.

I've had one person listen to me so far. Most just ignore me.


I dont really get it though....its so DAMN SATISFYING to see all these numbers pop on all these adds @_________@


In fact, I did an expert the other day on my WHM, went in, checked the tank's gear and said "hi, big pulls please".
Party comp was: PLD, WHM(me), DRG and RDM.

And out of all people, the DRAGOON speaks up "um, no, we dont have AoE"


...........................................


(oh, and he was a mentor lol)

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

I find that tanks usually pull sometimes more than they should, drain all healers mp or die. There shouldn't be some meta to have to AoE anyways.

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My friend pulls a lot of mobs as a tank, and as long as we have good dps that know how to burn things down, using CDs and AoE efficiently the mobs go poof.

When I go healer and tank do a large pull, I look at party list to see both DPs at full TP.
I now understand why me and the tank are suffering. Mobs are not dying.

It is not the tank making the healer suffer, they have enough CD to take 7 or more mobs.
The mobs just need to be taken down fast. And that is the dps job to do.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

My friend pulls a lot of mobs as a tank, and as long as we have good dps that know how to burn things down, using CDs and AoE efficiently the mobs go poof.

When I go healer and tank do a large pull, I look at party chat to see both DPs at full TP.
I now understand why me and the tank are suffering. Mobs are not dying.

It is not the tank making the healer suffer, they have enough CD to take 7~ mobs
The mob just need to be taken down fast. And that is the dps job to do.

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Good job then. I experience the same and the opposite. It's still boring to do nothing but AoE because people do not like the common monster kills. Sometimes regardless of the DPS skills too many enemies are being pulled, tank or healer dies.

AoE pulls are too commonplace, something needs to be nerfed or single target buffed. If AoE is becoming a defacto standard.

Just take the trash monsters out of the instances if they don't require much different tactics and allow way too big pulls.

The best way to avoid it is to take someone you know in your roulettes. We were doing 12 minute dungeons with our FC, and it can take 35 dull minutes with randoms.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

I find that tanks usually pull sometimes more than they should, drain all healers mp or die. There shouldn't be some meta to have to AoE anyways. What can be done turns into always done, and that's boring.

Tank trait: Brittle: Defense/damage is drastically reduced in when x amount of enemies attack.

Buff single target damage

Or Nerf AoE damage

Rant threads about how people play end. Not really, then the rants will be about rotations or why is damage being punished.

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I don't see how performing a single target rotation on trash mobs that have less mechanics than a striking dummy is any way less boring than using your AoE skills.

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Originally Posted by amihavingfunyet

I don't see how performing a single target rotation on trash mobs that have less mechanics than a striking dummy is any way less boring than using your AoE skills.

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It's not my fault SE only makes bosses interesting. Neither is that interesting if you judge that way. I already don't like only having a few skills to rotate through. AoE unless you are an AoE class is typically spamming 1-2 buttons overs and over if buffs aren't in the mix.

A tank shouldn't be able to tank tons of enemies at once anyways. Anymore than a DPS should be able to ground zero an entire room.

Again, make trash more interesting, nerf must AoE meta, or remove trash enemies from dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

Just take the trash monsters out of the instances if they don't require much different tactics and allow way too big pulls.

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But why, though. Dungeons would be even more boring if you had 3 striking dummy-esque bosses and only 3 bosses to kill. At least with large pulls, things can sometimes get exciting if you manage to pump out a ton of AOE damage and just watch things melt. Take the large pull after the second boss in Sirensong. I'm leveling up WHM, tank pulls everything from dogs to the Gravekeeper. I've got Largesse + Regen on them, Aero III, Assize for burst heal and damage, Thin Air + Presence of Mind + free Holy spam for 12 seconds. Couple that with my last run where I had a BRD and a SAM both helping AOE the pack down, and they were dead before I had to even Bene the tank. There is a certain satisfaction in watching large pulls just melt like butter.

AOEing isn't hard. People that refuse to do it just don't understand the math behind how, after a certain point, AOE potency > single-target potency. Even with nerfed AOE, there isn't a reason to not use your AOE skills (except perhaps for a DRK's Dark Passenger--MP cost isn't worth the measily potency or effects unless you have a MASSIVE pull).

There's nothing interesting about AOEing the mobs as it is the same tactic over and over on each pack of mobs. Those tactics do not change with the pack outside of the occasional group of aoes.

There is not crowd control, there are no "hornet" or "bomb" type enemies in SB, iirc.

When I have the right group for it I love getting big pulls as a WAR and just Decimate and overpower spam and watch everything die, even if my dps don't use their AOEs but they usually do.

As a RDM I will AOE at 3+, but often I find the other dps I am with will jus single target. Usually it is a melee like a DRG in those cases. Range is usually AOEing with me. Always feel with melee who single target that I am doing most of the work because not only am I hitting their target, but everything around it. I don't complain though because it is trash mobs and so long as the tank and healer are not struggling as well as we get through content it is fine. Just not sure what they don't want to AOE.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

But why, though. Dungeons would be even more boring if you had 3 striking dummy-esque bosses and only 3 bosses to kill. At least with large pulls, things can sometimes get exciting if you manage to pump out a ton of AOE damage and just watch things melt. There is a certain satisfaction in watching large pulls just melt like butter.

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I guess I would prefer fewer harder hitting monsters that give more xp, than 20 enemies who hit like fleas but combined drain resources.

Where clever pulls and positioning dictate death or victory.

Attention over spam.

It's more like God Of Warrior Of Light(hacknslash) now and I want Dark Souls. Precision + Power over speed.

I've met a Bard who tried to explain me he didn't want to aoe because bard aoes were bad ...

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Originally Posted by Sandpark

I guess I would prefer fewer harder hitting monsters that give more xp, than 20 enemies who hit like fleas but combined drain resources.

Where clever pulls and positioning dictate death or victory.

Attention over spam.

It's more like God Of Warrior Of Light(hacknslash) now and I want Dark Souls. Precision + Power over speed.

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In Dark Souls, you run past all the enemies and beeline the bonfire/boss room where you can.

I don't think it's really comparable as in Dark Souls the fighting is based on hitboxes and dodging those rather than basically target+damage/hit calc.

There's no crowd control, nor possibility for multiple healers/tanks in this game, so the old type wow scholo instances can't really be done (though I think you could actually aoe those, as long as a couple of players watched the mobs that could do the nasties).

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Originally Posted by Eyvhokan

In Dark Souls, you run past all the enemies and beeline the bonfire/boss room where you can.

I don't think it's really comparable as in Dark Souls the fighting is based on hitboxes and dodging those rather than basically target+damage/hit calc.

There's no crowd control, nor possibility for multiple healers/tanks in this game, so the old type wow scholo instances can't really be done (though I think you could actually aoe those, as long as a couple of players watched the mobs that could do the nasties).

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Well beeline exist here on speedruns too.

Not as precise but red ground aoe=hitbox, and you dodge those.

And that is what is missing. Crowd Control, combat is dodge or kill for the most part. No need for crowd control if we can AoE an entire zone or enemies hit like gnats. I want the thrill of if the said puller does not use forethought on pull, the outcome is not looking bright. Not bright on 24/7, let me pull ten to 30 monsters, I am going to ignore the majority of your mechanics, and we will spam rains of thunderous AoE all day long.

The fun part of AOE is you have to always position yourself tomake sure you hit all the mobs.
also NiN's aoe is unique,you have to stay right at the middle of the mobs which is sometimes suicide if mobs use multiples aoe to block your escape route.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

3 or more mobs is just what you need to AoE. 2 mobs you focus one down then the other, basic rules.

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It depends on what class you're on and the potencies of your skills. On Blm, I typically start Aoe at 4+, you can do 3 but it's still not really worth it and might be faster to just kill them 1 by 1.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

It depends on what class you're on and the potencies of your skills. On Blm, I typically start Aoe at 4+, you can do 3 but it's still not really worth it and might be faster to just kill them 1 by 1.

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I find 4+ is definitely that sweet spot for AoE. However, as a RDM, I find it needs to be more around the 6+.

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

It depends on what class you're on and the potencies of your skills. On Blm, I typically start Aoe at 4+, you can do 3 but it's still not really worth it and might be faster to just kill them 1 by 1.

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I agree, with BLM do single target on 3 mobs IF the other dps is also doing single target (Which is likely the type of dps you run into in DF).

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Originally Posted by whiteblade89

In ARR I was that player who never aoe'd because I was a dumb noob.

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Newbie: n. A n00b with a learning curve.

whiteblade89: "In ARR I was that player who never aoe'd because I was a dumb newbie." **Fixed**

Because I'm tired.
Been playing since beta and mostly playing dps classes - I have been AoE spamming in dungeons for almost 4 years, at some point after SB came out, I just got tired of repeating the same pattern over and over and over. Sometimes, I just want to practice my single target rotations, etc.

I think its super entitled thinking, that tanks expect dps to be of one mindset and do what's 'optimal' 100% of the time; that's what raids and EX primals are for, dungeons should be a way to relax imo and I should not be forced to play a certain way just because its faster.

That being said, I do run BLM majority of the time and I got batshit with aoe, did a 7 minute run of Ala Migho the other day.

Some days tho, I just want to play RDM and enjoy my single target stylish shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by paindax

I think its super entitled thinking, that tanks expect dps to be of one mindset and do what's 'optimal' 100% of the time; that's what raids and EX primals are for, dungeons should be a way to relax imo and I should not be forced to play a certain way just because its faster.

Some days tho, I just want to play RDM and enjoy my single target stylish shenanigans.

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This post reeks of I don't give a crap about other people's time and I don't mind that I am making this take longer because it is all about me. Super entitled that your time is the only thing that matters

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Originally Posted by whiteblade89

[...]
I enjoy helping new players as long as they're willing to be helped. Makes the game feel more rewarding. And knowing where I came from makes it easier to handle runs with players like that. My point in my post was that there will always be players who underperform for one reason or another. And while I don't always attempt to coach everyone, Im never the one to cause a fuss over it. I'm not mad at these players because I don't know their stories. I remember how I used to be. Everyone has to learn sometime. Doesn't mean that some runs don't make you wanna tear your hair out though lol as I said, I just laugh it off because it's a game.

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Become a Mentor already. The Community needs you.

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

This post reeks of I don't give a crap about other people's time and I don't mind that I am making this take longer because it is all about me. Super entitled that your time is the only thing that matters

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Not really, but nice try.
I understand people have time constraints sometimes and such, I don't lack empathy. Hell, if the tank says "I'm on a time crunch" you bet I will aoe my fingers off.

In the other hand, I also play this game for my enjoyment/fun, my way of relaxing after work and what-not. I am not having fun when spamming aoe the entire dungeon. (Unless I'm BLM and I purposedly queue as one 90% of the time still, to help clear faster.)

As a Nin main i make it a priority to spam AOE moves with anything numbering 3 or more mobs. Doton---> Kassatsu---katon---throw a few death blossoms in and a few basic attacks until Hell Frog medium comes up. Rinse and repeat.

Out of all of that the only thing that could be potentially taxing on my TP is death blossom spam.

Then again, it may not be so fun or easy for other DPS classes, so i dunno.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

I find 4+ is definitely that sweet spot for AoE. However, as a RDM, I find it needs to be more around the 6+.

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And how did you arrive at this 6+ number? Scatter is 100 potency, so at 3 enemies it's 300 per cast. Your other spells are 240-300.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

And how did you arrive at this 6+ number? Scatter is 100 potency, so at 3 enemies it's 300 per cast. Your other spells are 240-300.

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Yea but you not taking into account the single target rotations and Verflare or Verholy which would yield more dps then aoe spam. Also SE said they want us to stop doing big pulls, ever notice how the mobs hit alot harder now? Besides its quicker just pull small groups allow the healer to dps then pull massive groups and use weak potency aoe spam, not letting the healers dps at all.