Normal seems to be the exception this time around. I'm all for a bit more challenge in Normal Mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xlantaa
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10-03-2016, 08:44 AMKyne_Lyons
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10-03-2016, 08:56 AMHyrist
Over-defended hyperbole at its finest. I wonder how many threads by the same ten individuals will we see over the next six months.
May be worth while to keep track.
But, it may actually be more worthwhile to keep track of the new player metrics as we get close to 4.0. The measurement of success of this choice of Yoshidas will not be done by the opinions of a select few, but by the metrics of the playerbase itself. Crying havok before the first week is concluded is, honestly the best way to discredit oneself. -
10-03-2016, 09:11 AMKyne_Lyons
I'm interested in hearing from people who raid Savage to weigh in on this.
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10-03-2016, 09:54 AMOMGAFLYINGPENGUINI've played games where players tested out the content for a company and trust me it has brought alot of problems. Especially when the world race involves money. If you brought in the world's best players they'll set the standard of how high the dps checks are or how tedious the mechanics are that the average community will not be able to handle. If you brought in a group of average players, then the standard will be too easy for the skilled raiders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang
Regardless if players get to test content before it was actually out and words get out to the community Square enix will have its reputation tarnished and if this players who have tested the content were to aim for world's first obviously it would give them an edge. Don't say it can't happen because it has happened in the game I came from, and they lost almost half its playerbase because of this.
Any professional company will understand that having players involved in testing their content comes with a ginormous risk and if the players are temperamental and words get out majority of the player would call it foul play. But if Square Enix were to made an official announcement that they got players to help them test raid content out, players will still call it foul play. -
10-03-2016, 10:23 AMWindiPlayers will "test" this content either way, regardless of whether it's behind closed doors or not. This is a game made for players, and a development company want's to be sure their audience will respond to their game in a positive manner. The chances of players being one-sided or unhelpful is an inevitability, so what really do they have to lose by allowing players to test their content?Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGAFLYINGPENGUIN
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10-03-2016, 10:43 AMColorOfSakura
Oh look, it's the exact. same. complaint. as from when Final Coil was released.
The exact complaint that led to Gordias. The exact complaint that led to the raid scene effectively being destroyed and killing half the servers on the game because the raiders all moved to Gilgamesh in order to actually accomplish anything.
I'm not saying that SE isn't partially at fault for way overtuning stuff, but come on - no one has been satisfied with raid difficulty in this game since day one. It's a nightmare.
They are NEVER going to strike a balance where everyone is going to be satisfied. EVER. It is impossible. The raids are either going to be too hard for everyone that isn't the super hardcore groups, or they're going to be too easy for the hardcore groups while being tuned fine for the midcore groups. There's no way for them to win with you people unless they make like 10 different versions each to cater to your very UND PRECISE expectation of difficulty. -
10-03-2016, 11:11 AMWindiI'd like to argue that it is impossible to be truly precise with game difficulty in general due to its relative nature. People who are more experienced/knowledgeable about the game's working mechanics will always have an easier time dealing with this content then others.Quote:
Originally Posted by ColorOfSakura
These people are in the minority, though, and it is always a bad idea to design anything catered specifically to hardcore players due to how it excludes a massive amount of people and how very often leads to an un-immersive experience where the focus is too much on numbers and mechanics rather than the actual thrill of the content itself. In that regard, I wouldn't mind if they were all toned down in difficulty. -
10-03-2016, 11:29 AMKaitlanKela
If you think savage is too easy you just need to accept that you are in a very small, very vocal minority and SE simply cannot cater to your needs because they do not have the resources to do so. Sure, everyone would like more content of the difficulty level they prefer, but you have to temper that desire with the reality the SE has to sell this product relative to the people who consume said product. They have the stats of the clear rates. They aren't going to spend their time making content only 2.5% of the playerbase will play, it's not cost-effective.
The end. /thread -
10-03-2016, 11:36 AMVelhart
Again like I said in the other thread this exact conversation is going on. The intent of Creator's difficulty is in response to complaints according to the developers over complex rotations for lv.60. Easing raid difficulty and then when jobs are more simplified in 4.0, then the possibility of raising the difficulty again there.
Something I wonder is how WoW gets it so right when FFXIV doesn't. Even FFXIV did okay with the first three Coil turns. FCoB may of been easier, but it at least had better scaling. Now SE feels the need to jump all over the place, almost like they don't know what they are doing right now in attempts to make the impossible by making everyone happy, which won't happen. Raiding is always going to be niche with low numbers. I argue that you make strong, rich content over trying to please numbers and charts for your higher ups to look at. But hey! Maybe that is just me being idealistic and not realistic. -
10-03-2016, 11:54 AMLambdafish
I'd like to weigh in and say that the creator is NOT too easy. The mechanics are engaging, and most importantly, fun. The issue comes from the insane gear check that renders most gear this patch (and next patch) irrelevant. The first two instances are fine as they are, but the last two should definately have posed more of a gear check problem than it did.
People should be able to reasonably clear it, however, people should not be able to reasonably clear without at least a few pieces of scripture gear, and I feel that the ilvl plan for this patch is the part that is broken, not the difficulty of the raid. -
10-03-2016, 01:03 PMOMGAFLYINGPENGUINI would believe they have a team in SE to test the content, employed staffs, not random players from the community. There is a reason why I believe they have done a good job( better than more korean MMOs) in balancing classes, I don't think their team is as incompetent as everyone thinks, they played used to QQ about how easy rotations were, they made it complex in HW, they have shown that they can introduce things of high difficulty and complexity. As for testing content, Alright lets say they got angered or EM to test the content to guage how long it'd take the most hardcore teams to clear. And one of the teams got World 1st and the community finds out, what would happen?Quote:
Originally Posted by Windi
Btw I'm not white knighting, I'm telling you I've experienced first hand. Doing this comes with a big risk for them. -
10-03-2016, 01:08 PMMilesSaintboroguhThen won't it take much longer to complete Alexander or just as long to even be able to get a shot at doing a floor? I don't think I'd be happy having to grind expert roulette for tomestones and get gear every week or two just to be able to enter/clear one floor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lambdafish
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10-03-2016, 01:19 PMTinyRedLeafExactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fawkes
People keep ranting about this mythical "mid-core" content, without realising that there's no such thing. What's "mid-core" for one group of players may well be hardcore for another group of players.
As the saying goes: "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."
It simply boils down to entitlement mentality: People always think their own needs matter the most, everyone else be damned. Is it any surprise, then, that the NA community is so toxic? -
10-03-2016, 02:02 PMsilentwindfra rule, absolute rule actually, in mmorpg world..... HARDCORE WILL ALWAYS FORCE EVERYTHING!!! you talk of wow, remember how some of the last raid was simply crushed in less of 3 day.... why this? because the top player have very good skill, a good team and generally good gear for support this. do it's unfair? no this did work for this, for be the best. the course to be the first to clean a raid is always a thing.... if the best of the best, with the best gears is not able to complete a content for weeks.... how you want the normal player, that have barely the BiS and the best skill or the best team to pass it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons
not everyone have your static, gear or experience, do it means that the one below you must'nt enjoy this? because for the 2.0 most of the community did even see T13 boss.... and we are clearly outgearing the stuff.... why this? because most of the fight is filled with unforgiving mechanic that even echoes and gears can't make you ignore.... worst, some content in unsync will become trickier since the boss will have mechanic skip that can create.... strange and dangerous situation.... but i digress.
the point is right now, the community is split in 2 the casual on one side, and the hardcore on the other side. where it's sad, that some hardcore think they deserve a better treatment than a casual....forgeting that before be a hardcore gamer they was casual, noob, bad player. no one is perfect from the get go....Sadly, if you only make content for the best of the best.... new generation of hardcore will probably never appear.... leading to our situation, where most player simply ignore savage content, if not extrem.... why? because a lot of harcore and raider create a bad reputation and act quite toxicly....
like the no first time, kill part 1 error = 1 kick..... and such... yeah, you want to farm in peace, but you refuse new player and after you complain that the dev look at the stats and notice that the content they did work hard on.... is barely touched by 5% of the player base. meaning this content is bad..... them goal is to make as much player as possible enjoy the game and wanting to keep coming into it.
but if a content is only source of frustration for normal player and casual player.... that are kinda the most big part of the community.... you can be sure that it's not healthy for the game.
before continue i want to point a game that did come out with hardcore in mind, the goal was to make a game for the hardcore.... called wildstar..... how it did go? turn in f2p and they had to tune down the whole game.... because hardcore is not the norm of the mmorpg player.
you want harder content, good, help to make the player level increase instead to complain here or isolate yourself without people of the same skill.... more raider and hardcore will be present and doing hard content, more they thrive to make harder content.
but if hardcore and raider continue to isolate themself.... they have no reason to give more and more and more harder content for a so little part of the community. and you know what.... it's logical. and hardcore are responsible for this situation. they did crush the true midcore content, asking more and more and more.... to the point that the dev don't have the time to create a bridge for allows casual to become midcore for become hardcore later.
no one is good from the start, everyone did start like noob, casual or bad player.... want the sitation to change. change your mentality and accept to see that the raider and hardcore community is responsible for this. in older game hardcore was training midcore for get more raider for do more content and such.... but here.... only a few still do it. here people only want to farm with the people of same skill. ignoring that if you take a bit of time to train a casual, maybe he can be an exellent player that will later help you to do more content.
just 2 cents. think about it.
ps: just like this, i'm an old hardcore player from older game, i did stop because i don't have the group nor the will to partake into it, when i see people acting soo rudely with new player. i feel bad.... it make me sick to think that people have become soo selfish and simply don't want to be part of a community in the whole. only with a small group. -
10-03-2016, 02:25 PMKyne_LyonsNot the end, no. The content is already being developed for Normal Mode and they are spending pennies developing Savage Mode. This is how it works for every MMORPG on the market including World of Warcraft, zero exceptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaitlanKela
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10-03-2016, 02:59 PMLambdafishThe problem is that this content is supposed to last 6 months (at least) AND cater to a wider audience this time around, and the problem is that only one of those criteria seems to have been pursued(the latter). To achieve the former you either need to make a harder raid, or increase the ilvl requirement for clearing, and only the second option also adheres to the goal of appealing to a wider audience.Quote:
Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh
On another note: Is grinding expert not also content that the devs want you to do? Does that not prove my point of rendering gear obsolete? -
10-03-2016, 03:11 PMLulu89
Oo please get over your selfs.. FFXIV not for hardcore raiders.. The more ppl raid the better I say. It pisses me off to only see 20-30 ppl with endgame raid gear. 3.0 was over kill, we need more 2.0 raids where more ppl raid v less. You want hardcore to back to WoW I say.
On that note.. 1st you QQ its to easy.. Then QQ it to hard.. Now your back to QQ it too easy... Sry but I'll take easy and more ppl to play with, over to hard and less ppl to play with. to many Staict failed with A1S- A8S and so much more rage quitting and bad blood then there was in 2.0 raids. -
10-03-2016, 03:25 PMAstral145
This is SE's way to get more players into the raid scene.... This past year it was pulling teeth to get players to run savage raids...anyway try to get more players into raiding.....
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10-03-2016, 03:37 PMEvangela
just scrap the whole elite raids. It's classist. They should treat all the players equally.
Spending game budget to develop content for 5% minorities isn't the right thing to do. -
10-03-2016, 03:59 PMReynhart
I haven't read the whole topic but I think people are missing OP's issue.
The problem is not that the content is too easy, but that it's tuned wrong. If you can skip phases with "obsolete" gear, there is a problem.
Let's take Ravana EX, for example. Nowadays, it's common to just burn the boss during add phase to push Chandrahas earlier. But when it was released, you had to focus on the adds to ensure no sword pop, even though it wasn't "difficult".
Even if Creator's difficulty is tuned down to make more people into raids (which is good), you shouldn't be able to screw some boss rotation that early.
And apparently, the same is also true for Sophia EX. -
10-03-2016, 04:02 PMKyne_LyonsThank you for staying on topic and actually understanding the reason that I posted. I knew when I posted this that a lot of people were going to try to turn it into a "us versus them" thread and I am praying that the developers can see through the noise and understand the issue I am trying to bring attention to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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10-03-2016, 04:06 PMLulu89Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons
And I ran in to MANY party's that can't push.. So it not 100%. And not every raid team will be hardcore or have 2years of raid exp under there belt like some a of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Again I say who cares! Just have fun and injoy the game. -
10-03-2016, 04:33 PMVelhartSo let things be potentially broken, ill structured, and fall under amateurish like design as long as it is fun? Okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu89
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10-03-2016, 04:38 PMaleph_null
I just noticed that both the new trial and savage has this problem about pushing phases. My group sometimes skip certain mechanics during learning a10s and sophia ex and it makes it annoying (tank swap preparation, cd management) since we don't skip it 100% of the time. I don't mind the easier difficulty, but the phase skipping is admittedly annoying.
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10-03-2016, 04:57 PMBrian_
I think fights with varied phasing based on DPS are good. They just need to be designed so that skipped phases are more seamless like in A5S, A7S or Sophia EX and don't create awkward situations like when you push A8S P1 too quickly.
What this accomplishes is it adds variation to a fight, tests your understanding of mechanics and ability to adapt, and gives groups something else to do even after clearing. Clearing A5S in early prog and doing speed runs of it later on were different experiences. In a game with such little content, that's a good thing. It gives groups something else to do.
Overall, I don't think the tuning of this tier is that bad. Yea, the top teams cleared in a few days. So what?
The gap between a top raider in this game and your average mid-core raider is already gigantic. The gap between a top raider and a casual raider is indescribably large. And, on top of the gap in skill, top raiders have considerable resources that your average raider doesn't have -- stockpiled gil from content selling, FC / organizer support for recruitment and raid information, dedicated crafters feeding them crafted gear and stockpiles of the best food and potions, etc.
So even if the best statics are clearing the hardest content week 1, it's still going to take your average static months of progression.
And, as for the gear progression, that's also fine as long as they don't flush it down the toilet immediately in 4.0 and have the gear last as long as it did in 3.0 or even a bit longer (and maybe have it desynth into rare mats later on). The main complaint from raiders about gear progression (which has been misrepresented in this topic) is that the gear is pointless after you clear the content. There is no point in farming for BiS because for the next tier of early progression, you are going to want the new tier of crafted gear. So, as long as the Creator's gear lasts into the next expansion, I think it's fine.
On one final point, it's a good thing that top statics didn't need a lot of i270 gear to clear the content. That's how your content is supposed to be tuned. When you make the gear matter, the world-race devolves into RNG drop luck, alt-runs, and weekly resets rather than a real test of skill and problem solving. Gordias was gear gated and the consensus among top raiders was that it was stupid. And, when even the best statics need i270 gear to clear, that means mid-core and casual players are left without a gear crutch to help them clear content. If HC raiders can clear content at ~i250, that means MC and casual raiders have ~20 ilevels of gear to help them. If HC raiders can't clear content until ~i260, that means MC and casual raiders only have ~10 ilevels of gear to help close the skill gap. If HC raiders can't clear content until ~i270, that means MC and casual raiders will never clear it.
So the Creator is hardly a disaster. -
10-03-2016, 04:59 PMReynhartYou shouldn't "Run into parties that can't push so it's not 100%", you should "run into parties that automatically do the whole savage/EX boss rotation at release". Pushing phases on savage should be a 0% probability at first, and slowly increasing whit the scripture/savage gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu89
When the three part of Crystal Tower were released, you couldn't push any phase. Not properly killing adds for bone dragon was a wipe. Not charging the wall for Scylla's petrification was a huge deal, letting Glasya Labolas charge its attack too high was also a wipe.
With i90, you couldn't push phases on content that dropped i80...with i100/110, you couldn't push phases on content that dropped i100...now, with i240/250, you can push phases on content that drop i270.
Keep in ming CT is considered faceroll content. -
10-03-2016, 05:05 PMBrian_You could push plenty of that content without over gearing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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10-03-2016, 05:10 PMReynhartSo, I guess I must have run into only bad alliances for not seeing any Syrcus push before ilvl120/130 was created.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Yet still, at best, the content you pushed dropped the same ilvl as you already had. This is totally different, especially for a Savage content. -
10-03-2016, 05:52 PMSublimeIbanezDo you by any chance have a source for this? I'm legit curious on some of the expense requirements necessary for content like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons
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10-03-2016, 05:53 PMPasquale
We are really discussing about a content where u are able to SKIPP PHASES 1st day in ilv 240!!! How canu say this is good for you!
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10-03-2016, 05:57 PMBrian_
You could also skip phases 1st day in i210 in Midas Savage.
Where were the forum posts crying about that? -
10-03-2016, 05:59 PMSublimeIbanezI have to rebuttle this. The problem with gear is the fact that once new gear comes out, your current gear IS USELESS, provided it's at a lower overall iLVL. It's a problem with power creep by design from gear progression, not a problem with the raid rewards which would be fixed by addressing the issue with power creep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
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10-03-2016, 06:01 PMRemediOr second coil tooQuote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
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10-03-2016, 06:15 PMBrian_You and the person you are replying to both are not understanding the original point expressed in the threads referenced.Quote:
Originally Posted by SublimeIbanez
People had an issue with how crafted gear, Alexander NM gear, and EX primal gear instantly made most gear from the last raid cycle obsolete day 1. As such, once you cleared the previous raid tier, there was no point in ever doing it again. Farming for BiS was meaningless because it would be replaced day 1 of the next even patch.
It was not a topic about horizontal vs. vertical gear progression. It was one about how completely unnecessary and damaging even patch gear resets were.
So the tuning of the Creator does not solve this. Can you use your Midan gear to clear it? Yes, but that is not the point. The idea behind farming for BiS in preparation for the next raid tier is that you care enough about optimization to put in the time to farm. It's still not optimal to progress through the Creator using Midan gear. If you care that much about optimization you'll buy and meld the crafted gear + a piece or two of prototype gear day 1. That's the point. -
10-03-2016, 06:20 PMReynhart
I have a question for raiders.
If you can comfortably clear Creator with Midas/Lore gear and you know that you won't have any harder content before level 70 in the next expansion, where you'll buy better gear from new NPCs in the meantime, what incentive do you have to farm Creator each week ? -
10-03-2016, 06:25 PMthorkellthetall
Why does every piece of content have to be tuned to try to get everyone to do it? Why can't we just have something of difficulty that takes weeks or months to complete, and people that want to do it can attempt it? I don't PVP, but they don't seem to want to make me try and do that content. Why does everyone have to be able to do everything?
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10-03-2016, 06:53 PMPasqualeMaybe u right about this but idk i think it's wrong that you are able to clear 3 turns with old gears.. Also did u notice that accuracy required for A12s is the same as A8s? ( no sense new gears got more accuracy in them o.o) looks really like they want you to complete in very few weeks and this could be fine if... There is another progress after 2/3 months but no.. You have to wait AT LEAST 6 months if not more for the next 1 , so i can understand they want more clear rate , i don't understand why they want it asap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remedi
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10-03-2016, 06:56 PMBourne_Endeavor
Admittedly, the OP echoed my biggest concern with this raid tier's tuning: gear progression. I just jumped into Sophia blind. Normal mode, we laughably murdered her and in EX got her to 40%-ish after only a couple attempts. Now some in my group had one ilv 250 crafted piece, but I was rocking unmelded 240 gear. Sure, my DPS numbers by comparison were bad due to the ilvl gap, but Sophia shouldn't be getting pushed so quickly, especially by a group in 90% "old" gear. I cannot help wondering what purpose ilvl 260, let alone 270 even serves now.
I do suspect this final tier was tuned so aggressively low because Yoshi hopes to first revive and reinvigorate the raid scene before scaling it up once again, albeit not to Gordias' level. Unfortunately, the devs also have a terrible tendency to work in extremes. Content either becomes far too unforgiving or too easy. Suppose we'll see whether Savage climbs back up, though 3.5 is going to feel... empty if even casual raid groups have blown through The Creator by then. -
10-03-2016, 07:19 PMLaunched
It's not as badly tuned as A3S or A4S.
Well...Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
http://i66.tinypic.com/bdpcfo.jpg
You said it. Obviously it's an exception when you don't like it, right? -
10-03-2016, 07:43 PMChocoFeruMy incentive clearing content is not gear, but having a challenge to complete with my mates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Content gets boring if it's too hard, and it gets even worse when the difficulty is artifficial (like gearcheck) so I'm OK with the actual content, where skilled people can get to skip phases, while others that doesn't know how to DPS higher has to deal with additional mechanics to compensate.
What am I going to do after completing the raid? Keep doing other content.
I think you guys have a problem with MMOs in general, and it's called "itemwhorism". You care too much about items that increases your stats, for no reason at all, because when you've already completed the hardest content; why the hell do you need more gear?
This game offers a lot of different content, yet you choose to skip it because it doesn't give you a shining gear that increases your stats.
You should tell me WHY do you need to get full ilv270 when you've already completed the full raid at, let's say, ilv260. ¿Diadem? ¿Soloing dungeons? I can't think of anything else.