Its april 2016 yet no healer stat weights???

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Originally Posted by Granyala

1) Stat weights can be calculated from the values you posted me.
Avg heal/non hasted cast time - Avg heal/hasted cast time = Δheal/Δ cast time. Divide that by 26.5 and you get Δheal per 1SS.
Now compare that to the Δheal you get from +1 mind and you can calculate Δheal(1ss) / [Δheal(1mind)/100] to get the percentage.

There would be your normalized stat weight for +1ss.

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SS increases your DoT/HoT ticks by the same percentage that it decreases your GCD. 1% off cast time (~64 SS) also gives +1% to each DoT/HoT tick.

Crit hit rate starts at roughly 5% with each critical hit giving a +45% increase in damage. For each ~43 Crit you add each of those numbers increases 1%, meaning it's not a straight line.

You want a simple y = Ax equation, but that's not how stats work in this game. Weights are given at a rough value in current top end gear, and for healer they would vary between healing and dps. The best you will get is how the stats weigh for someone else's gear and playstyle.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

You want a simple y = Ax equation, but that's not how stats work in this game.

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It is, my dear. Stats in every Everquest clone MMO work this way, FF is not an exception.
To be mathematically precise: my last post would calculate the stat weights for the spell [cure] not the entire White Mage class.

Though in order to make proper assessments you need to simulate a complete fight.
Granted that is extremely hard to impossible to do for healing (because healing duties vary so much depending on how good your group is), but it is easy to do for DPS.

You simulate the fight 10000 times. Then you vary the stats by, say +500 SS / -500SS (example values) and simulate again.
That gives you a delta in actual combat performance that involves all spells used. You can then do the same for all other stats including int.
After that, each stat delta is calculated as a percentage of your main stat -> normalized stat weights.

Now the kicker and the really interesting question would be:
Given our severely limited gearing choices and the harsh limits we have on melding stuff, both in quantity and opportunity: do we need this information in order to perform properly?

My answer would be: No. Meld what you like, it won't make a dent in you performance anyway.
If you find yourself DPSing a lot in raids, accuracy would probably be the most valuable stat because Spell that hits >>>> spell that does a tiny bit more damage. (until hitcap ofc).
As a WHM, I'd consider piety too, because I still drain my mana quite rapidly when DPSing. :X

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

You mind reading the first page again and point out those who were not helping? Not including the first two responses as the more specific "desire" wasn't known till then

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All of them. The OP asked for concrete mathematical data.
That didn't get posted until DarkmoonVael posted the cure-SS data for me.
No, gut feeling "crit>det .." doesn't answer the OPs question.
Instead, people started bickering back and forth whether a game dev has the obligation to display % values and told him to just let it go and stack something according to his fancy.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

People DIDN'T try to help the OP. That is the point.

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You mind reading the first page again and point out those who were not helping? Not including the first two responses as the more specific "desire" wasn't known till then

I do not have specific #'s in relative form of MND, but the order is:

1. Accuracy
2. Crit
3. Piety
4.
5.
6. Spell Speed
7.
8.
9.
10. Determination

Crit is surely awesome if you play NoctAST / Scholar because shields do not generate overheal, but as WHM I don't like crit.
A critical heal often creates overheal because I don't cast heals wile relying on crits.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

It is, my dear. Stats in every Everquest clone MMO work this way, FF is not an exception.

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I can't speak for every other MMO, but in this one secondary stats are not a straight line (except DET more or less).

Adding your 800th Spell Speed gives you about 15% more of a proportional increase than you got from adding the 1st one in terms of casts, but has a proportional decrease in DoT/HoT ticks. Crit hit rate has an even sharper proportional increase than SS. DET is a fairly straight line on damage increase, which means a proportional decrease.

All the simulations in the world can't change any of that, and for different levels of content, different stats will weigh differently. Progression main healing you'll want to be able to keep your group alive through the big tankbusters. Off-healing farming runs you'll want to hit your accuracy cap.

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Originally Posted by Granyala;3658474The OP asked for [B

concrete mathematical data[/B].

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The very first response made perfect sense, though. There's no real purpose to have healer specified statweights. The reasons for this has been beaten to death numerous times now in this topic alone. Even if there is, with some simple thinking you can realise that getting +1% crit translates into +0.5% healing increase over time. And with minimal effort you can find existing data everywhere.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

ICrit hit rate has an even sharper proportional increase than SS.

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I'm just going to point out here that the first 10% increase in crit chance has more value than the next 10% you get. +10% with a base 5% means you'll triple the amount of crit hits over time. Going from 15% to 25% does not have the same proportional increase, however. Which is pretty much the opposite of spell speed. Not like you can stack either that much that the effective gains differ a lot

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

I'm just going to point out here that the first 10% increase in crit chance has more value than the next 10% you get. +10% with a base 5% means you'll triple the amount of crit hits over time. Going from 15% to 25% does not have the same proportional increase, however. Which is pretty much the opposite of spell speed. Not like you can stack either that much that the effective gains differ a lot

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That was true in ARR when a crit hit was a flat +50% damage, but they changed it so critical damage increases with critical hit rate.
Base: 5% chance +45% damage
+10%: 15% chance +55% damage
+20%: 25% chance +65% damage

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

That was true in ARR when a crit hit was a flat +50% damage, but they changed it so critical damage increases with critical hit rate.
Base: 5% chance +45% damage
+10%: 15% chance +55% damage
+20%: 25% chance +65% damage

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One also has to note that the Crit damage+ means nothing to a healer from a healing standpoint (Healer DPS is another matter), so Lyrica's analysis for straight healing is on point.

Astrologer priority is as follows from the folks I've been talking with on our server:

Spellspeed (until 700-800) > Determination > Piety | Crit

Simply put Astros when played correctly have huge mana pools and greatly benefit from faster casts while doing hard raid content. As you approach 2.2 casting speed you can start doing super slick sliding casts for small mechanic shifts, and otherwise cut corners that you would otherwise be hard pressed to manage. Determination after should be obvious as you want your overall heals more effective. Crit is just terrible on Astros IMO. I could MAYBE see shield based astros putting a different priority on critical stats... but Whitemage/Astro is MEH in raid content (I've run it a notable amount). Personally I'd rather pick up the the extra Piety over crit as mana does get tight if you have to resurrect a person here or there. Or if you have to bounce someone back from a sloppy mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

One also has to note that the Crit damage+ means nothing to a healer from a healing standpoint (Healer DPS is another matter), so Lyrica's analysis for straight healing is on point.

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For overhealing, yeah all that you'll do is overheal more. My understanding of adloquim is that a crit heal gives a shield double to the crit heal, so crit is even more potent for SCH.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Crit is surely awesome if you play NoctAST / Scholar because shields do not generate overheal, but as WHM I don't like crit.
A critical heal often creates overheal because I don't cast heals wile relying on crits.

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This only would make sense if our heals were already near the amount of peoples hitpoints. However, we heal for 3k and they have 15-25k HP. That could mean the difference in needing to cast another heal / cd or not.

For example, maybe there is a tank buster coming up that hits for 20k sending your tank down to 5k. You line up a Cure II and crit it for 8k, you're still no where near overheal. Personally, the largest heals I've done on both WHM and SCH are 12k and 13k respectively, and even that wouldn't result in overheal. If overheal is a common issue, it may be that you are healing to soon (i.e. they are at 80% and you are healing, rather than DPSing and letting them drop more).

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

One also has to note that the Crit damage+ means nothing to a healer from a healing standpoint (Healer DPS is another matter), so Lyrica's analysis for straight healing is on point.

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The added bonus is applied to healing as well

You're going from a 5% chance at 1.5x, to a 15% chance at 1.6x to a 25% chance at 1.7x.

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Originally Posted by Katlyna

Astrologer priority is as follows from the folks I've been talking with on our server:

Spellspeed (until 700-800) > Determination > Piety | Crit

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While I strongly disagree on the order, I mostly wanted to point out that you may want to reconsider DET placement. Determination scales very poorly for healers (approximately 200 DET = +30 average per 400 potency cure), conversely 200 CRIT would equal 5% more crit chance and a 0.1 added to the modifier (i.e. going from 5% at 1.5x to 10% at 1.6x). The average heals you are going to put out with the added CRIT floors the added with DET.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Item #2 has no bearing on healing because your heals aren't doing damage (unless there's research somewhere that indicates critted spells also get a bonus in their potency in a similar magnitude to damage spells/abilities/WS).

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They indeed do.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

For overhealing, yeah all that you'll do is overheal more. My understanding of adloquim is that a crit heal gives a shield double to the crit heal, so crit is even more potent for SCH.

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No, what I meant in my post is CRIT is split into two components

1. Crit % Change
2. Increase % in Damage when you Crit

Item #2 has no bearing on healing because your heals aren't doing damage (unless there's research somewhere that indicates critted spells also get a bonus in their potency in a similar magnitude to damage spells/abilities/WS).

With that in mind, the only aspect you have to consider from a healing-only standpoint is the increased % chance you'll have to Crit your spells. Hence my comment that Lyrica's comment to the crit discussion is on point when you consider healing and healing only.

[EDIT]

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

The added bonus is applied to healing as well

You're going from a 5% chance at 1.5x, to a 15% chance at 1.6x to a 25% chance at 1.7x.

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Can you quote me a source to show that the bonus applies to healing too? If you look at the 3.0 patch notes, it says:

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Critical hit rate now affects damage dealt with a critical strike.

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...under the "[2.0] Player attributes have been adjusted as follows:" category. As it specifically states "affects damage dealt", I do not believe this bonus would apply to healing as well but would like to see if anyone has proof speaking contrary to the patch notes.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Can you quote me a source to show that the bonus applies to healing too? If you look at the 3.0 patch notes, it says:

...under the "[2.0] Player attributes have been adjusted as follows:" category. As it specifically states "affects damage dealt", I do not believe this bonus would apply to healing as well but would like to see if anyone has proof speaking contrary to the patch notes.

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I do not have a source, I just know from experience with 700ish crit that I often hit for 1.6x modifier rather than 1.5x. Though there is a fluctuation in healing (a standard deviation of 55hp/heal on my last tests of physick), so that may have skewed my experience and it's possible I am wrong.

I just looked up one of my logs and looked at Embrace (made up the most of my healing in the fight). There were a total of 43 casts and a 14% crit rate. My average crit hit = 2850 and my average regular hit = 1792 which equals 1.6. Granted there are a lot of factors which may also skew this data, so this test should be taken with a grain of salt. For example, I have no idea how much each are affected by fey illumination, convalescence and defiance.

The problem with Crit though is, Crit = random overheals. Likewise unless you are shielding as an astro... random overheals are NOT useful. While clearing raid content your goal is to cover survival and recover damage as quickly as possible while minimizing overheal. Crit is useful when shielding or when hit point pools are so large that a random crit = one less heal. FFXIV isn't really designed like this... its EXTREMELY spam happy. Consequently I strongly disagree with padding crit unless you are shielding.

Likewise current raiding content, the most important thing is that you reach your position and your next heal hits in time. That is spell speed hands down. Once you learn fights and tighten up to where you know the heartbeat of a fight and its exact rotation, then you can let up off spell speed. But by then you're learning a new fight where you benefit greatly from said spell speed.

If Determination carried more weight I might put it before spell speed but it does not. So I strongly encourage (whitemage slot) Astrologers to go Spellspeed > Det > Piety/Crit.

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Originally Posted by Katlyna

Crit is useful when shielding or when hit point pools are so large that a random crit = one less heal. FFXIV isn't really designed like this....

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This is precisely how FFXIV is designed. No one takes damage and then all of a sudden everyone takes 10k. That crit Medica means you cast it once instead of twice.

Just to add:

EDIT, thanks for pointing out the calculation issues and I have adjusted below

Determination It takes 400 Determination to exceed the standard deviation of your heals. That is to say, 200 DET = 30 HP more per Physick, 400 DET = 60 HP more per Physick on average. Where the standard deviation of a physick, of my last testing, is 55HP. That is to say about ~70% of the heals fall within that +/-55HP window. For my calculation, 100 DET = +30 hp. Physick does near 3.5k (actually a bit more), so added DET = 30/3500 = 0.4%.

Added Healing Power (200 DET): 0.8%

Spell Speed It takes a lot of this to become useful to really be noticeable. 26.5 SpS = 0.01 reduction. Therefore, 100 spell speed reduces by 0.037 seconds. Spell Speed does however affect your potency on your HoT. I think the effect of this is similar to DET, but as it also lowers you recast time this is more desirable. For my calculation, 100 SS = 0.037 shaved off a 2.5 GCD which means your added healing power for 200 ss is 2*(0.037/2.5) + HoT potency bonus.

Added Healing Power (200 SS): 2.96% without HoTs, ~3.00% with HoTs

Critical Rate and Severity For every 200 Crit, you have a 5% chance to crit more and a 0.1x modifier. As the modifier is in question, I'll leave this out of the calculations.. The added healing power is then (Chance x Added Value) = (5% x 0.5) = 0.05 x 1.5 = 2.5% added to your healing power.

Added Healing Power (200 CRIT): 2.5%

Now, yes, crit is unpredictable, but the added healing power is 6.25x greater for CRIT than DET, and is 1.69x greater for CRIT than SS

Of course these are simple calculations out of a much more complex situation, but the general idea is still there.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I can't speak for every other MMO, but in this one secondary stats are not a straight line (except DET more or less).

Adding your 800th Spell Speed gives you about 15% more of a proportional increase than you got from adding the 1st one in terms of casts, but has a proportional decrease in DoT/HoT ticks. Crit hit rate has an even sharper proportional increase than SS. DET is a fairly straight line on damage increase, which means a proportional decrease.

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Yes stats scale exponentially.
Which is why simulations and all subsequent calculations are done for specific gear points.
Basic math. It is called "Linearisation".

Obviously stat weights are only valid for your character if you are near the point where they have been derived.
And yes again: every Everquest clone MMO works that way.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

The very first response made perfect sense, though. There's no real purpose to have healer specified statweights.

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I never disputed that.
Still many answers were quite rude.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

This is precisely how FFXIV is designed. No one takes damage and then all of a sudden everyone takes 10k. That crit Medica means you cast it once instead of twice.

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No matter how you slice it: crit WILL generate unintended overheal.
Also the crit might not happen when you need it and might happen when you don't need it.

Though this has been a religious debate amongst healers in various MMOs for as long as I can remember. Some like it, some don't, ultimately both setups get the job done.
It's ultimately up to personal prefs.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

No matter how you slice it: crit WILL generate unintended overheal.
Also the crit might not happen when you need it and might happen when you don't need it.

Though this has been a religious debate amongst healers in various MMOs for as long as I can remember. Some like it, some don't, ultimately both setups get the job done.
It's ultimately up to personal prefs.

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Yes, the issue is more that CRIT is substantially better than the alternatives for overall improvement. If they were closer, then I'd get behind SS/DET - but see my last post for the vast difference

Right but adjusting for a critical Medica isn't overly useful IMO. It literally means once in a blue moon I have a free GCD that just poofs. Its not efficient to randomly flip to cleric stance there for one GCD drop a dot and then flip back to AE healing mode. While you do save a slight bit of mana (assuming you catch that you crit and can skip the next AE... ASSUMING that you crit enough to properly skip it). Again rather than going through all of that for a few spastic extra criticals I would MUCH MUCH rather have a a tenth or two tenths of a second faster cast speed allowing me to better side cast, hit heals during tricky mechanics, and otherwise top people off early rather than latter.

All of those advantages FAR outweigh a few spastic critical. This thought process assumes one is considering spell speed vs critical.

Now if one were debating Det vs Crit... I would go back to the overheal issue... most crits = overheals which aren't useful. Now... one could ague how often does the X small percent matter for additional Det mechanically speaking. And that is a very healthy argument. None the less it would be brutally difficult to prove out how useful (or unuseful) extra det is, in which fights, at what HP thresholds under what conditions. Reguardless none of the fights are designed assuming that you get critical heals on any specific mechanic. They assume you hit some minimal healing threshhold to correct the damage taken, and everything past that is gravy. Personally since you don't control if and when people get randomly nipped, nibbled on or take other tid bits of damage they shouldn't, I prefer extra raw Det (even if its weighed less) over random criticals which sometimes are there when you need them, and sometimes aren't.

But any which way I readily admit stat weighting, preference, and personal playstyle can vary. Likewise ones exact raid composition, mechanics and expected damage can vary as well. So mileage for folks is most certainly going to vary some.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I do not have a source, I just know from experience with 700ish crit that I often hit for 1.6x modifier rather than 1.5x. Though there is a fluctuation in healing (a standard deviation of 55hp/heal on my last tests of physick), so that may have skewed my experience and it's possible I am wrong.

I just looked up one of my logs and looked at Embrace (made up the most of my healing in the fight). There were a total of 43 casts and a 14% crit rate. My average crit hit = 2850 and my average regular hit = 1792 which equals 1.6. Granted there are a lot of factors which may also skew this data, so this test should be taken with a grain of salt. For example, I have no idea how much each are affected by fey illumination, convalescence and defiance.

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I don't think it'd be too hard to test if push comes to shove - more time consuming than difficult. I might try to test it this week if I get time to do so.

Until then, I'd probably refrain from including that Crit potency bonus in any sort of healing theorycraft until we know for certain because the quote I gave you in my post does indicate that it would only affect damage dealt. I'm more inclined to believe S-E's patch notes than a random "It feels like this" (no offense).

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Originally Posted by Katlyna

Right but adjusting for a critical Medica isn't overly useful IMO. It literally means once in a blue moon I have a free GCD that just poofs. Its not efficient to randomly flip to cleric stance there for one GCD drop a dot and then flip back to AE healing mode. While you do save a slight bit of mana (assuming you catch that you crit and can skip the next AE... ASSUMING that you crit enough to properly skip it). Again rather than going through all of that for a few spastic extra criticals I would MUCH MUCH rather have a a tenth or two tenths of a second faster cast speed allowing me to better side cast, hit heals during tricky mechanics, and otherwise top people off early rather than latter.

All of those advantages FAR outweigh a few spastic critical. This thought process assumes one is considering spell speed vs critical.

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To obtain a tenth of a second faster cast time, you need 2.5k Spell Speed. Again, it's less that CRIT is great wah wah, it's that Spell Speed and Determination suck - leaving Crit as the only viable choice.

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Now if one were debating Det vs Crit... I would go back to the overheal issue... most crits = overheals which aren't useful. Now... one could ague how often does the X small percent matter for additional Det mechanically speaking. And that is a very healthy argument. None the less it would be brutally difficult to prove out how useful (or unuseful) extra det is, in which fights, at what HP thresholds under what conditions. Reguardless none of the fights are designed assuming that you get critical heals on any specific mechanic. They assume you hit some minimal healing threshhold to correct the damage taken, and everything past that is gravy. Personally since you don't control if and when people get randomly nipped, nibbled on or take other tid bits of damage they shouldn't, I prefer extra raw Det (even if its weighed less) over random criticals which sometimes are there when you need them, and sometimes aren't.

But any which way I readily admit stat weighting, preference, and personal playstyle can vary. Likewise ones exact raid composition, mechanics and expected damage can vary as well. So mileage for folks is most certainly going to vary some.

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Statistically speaking, most crits would not be an overheal. It becomes even less if you are a decent healer. I always gear for CRIT and my overheal isn't too bad (though, it's elevated as I am always shielding people at full HP for upcoming hits).

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I don't think it'd be too hard to test if push comes to shove - more time consuming than difficult. I might try to test it this week if I get time to do so.

Until then, I'd probably refrain from including that Crit potency bonus in any sort of healing theorycraft until we know for certain because the quote I gave you in my post does indicate that it would only affect damage dealt. I'm more inclined to believe S-E's patch notes than a random "It feels like this" (no offense).

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None taken and makes perfect sense. In my previous calculations, i left out the severity increase for that reason specifically.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I don't think it'd be too hard to test if push comes to shove - more time consuming than difficult. I might try to test it this week if I get time to do so.

Until then, I'd probably refrain from including that Crit potency bonus in any sort of healing theorycraft until we know for certain because the quote I gave you in my post does indicate that it would only affect damage dealt. I'm more inclined to believe S-E's patch notes than a random "It feels like this" (no offense).

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To be honest, i would be more inclined to trust the feeling rather than the patch notes. Historically, they have had things lost in translation, full details omitted, and thing not clarified.

Also, when increasing crit on my SCH without changing ilvl, it did look like the crit adlos did increase in shield power. But, i didnt do any extensive testing.

I have just taken it that increase in crit increases frequency and magnitude of damage and healing spells.

:).

Seems like the community has something to test and clarify for healers now :)

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Spell Speed It takes a lot of this to become useful to reall be noticeable. I am at I think 600 SS with 2.47 CD or so. Like every 100 SS you get a -0.01 seconds off your GCD- Say you had 1050 SS, that's ~ 700 from the default which should give you 2.38 seconds GCD. That means every 36 casts you will get a free heal. In terms of saving people, no one should be that close to the brink of death that 0.07 seconds means clearing and not. Spell Speed does however affect your potency on your HoT. I think the effect of this is similar to DET, but as it also lowers you recast time this is more desirable. For my calculation, 100 SS = 0.01 shaved off a 2.5 GCD which means your added healing power is 0.01/2.5 + HoT potency bonus.

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Your spell speed calculations look wrong. This is what I have stripping my Astros clothing off while under Diurnal:
864 - 2.19
821 - 2.20
802 - 2.21
765 - 2.22
703 - 2.25
605 - 2.28
569 - 2.29
542 - 2.30
515 - 2.31
506 - 2.31
473 - 2.33
464 - 2.33
418 - 2.35
372 - 2.37
354 - 2.37

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Originally Posted by Katlyna

Your spell speed calculations look wrong. This is what I have stripping my Astros clothing off while under Diurnal:
765 - 2.22
703 - 2.25
605 - 2.28
569 - 2.29
542 - 2.30
515 - 2.31
506 - 2.31
473 - 2.33
464 - 2.33
418 - 2.35
372 - 2.37
354 - 2.37

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Is that your cast time or recast time? Healers have a shorter cast than recast time, which is important to take into account - Thanks for throwing the numbers though, I am at work and was operating from memory.

If GCD recast follows the same trend, it looks like 100 SS = 0.04 not 0.01 decrease. That would bump up the healing power to 4x what I said, so instead of 0.4% it's a 1.6% increase or 2.4% with HoTs. That's still 1/3 of CRIT though.

That also means it would take +625 (979 total) ss, not +2.5k ss to reach the 1/10th faster healing. Apologies for the error.

EDIT: Just realized you said while under Diurnal, with the 5% buff so that's with that I am guessing. Can you show the difference without the buff as well?

That is my recast time. As you mention its still less raw metric power than CRIT (of which I completely concur) but functionally its noticeable. Its small but when positioning and doing movement mechanics I notice the difference. Mind you I am slide casting my heals so I'm fairly sensitive to the time and positioning.

I will concur the mana savings of crit hadn't concerned to me before. But one has to properly react and cancel out uneeded followup heals after crits... which is relatively difficult depending on the content. Again shield crits = juicy as this becomes a non issue.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Yes stats scale exponentially.
Which is why simulations and all subsequent calculations are done for specific gear points.
Basic math. It is called "Linearisation".

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Assuming your "specific gear point" only has a static weapon damage and main attribute, the curves still exist as I described them. If your specific gear point includes fixed amounts of Det/SS/Crit and you only are going to vary one by a few points, then you have a pretty flat curve.

Two people of same job, with gear at the same ilvl, can have dramatically different secondary stats, and as a result have different marginal stat weights off by 20% or more from each other.

Here's Dervy's blog testing SkS. If you assume SpS has a similar affect on spells that SkS has on Weaponskills, you're looking at around 26.5 SpS to reduce cast time by 0.01s. He also has the DoT calculation there too, which I would imagine has similar properties to SpS (don't quote me on that).

Also, take into account that Diurnal provides a multiplier to your speed, making SpS a less desirable stat as you need more SpS to get the same 0.01s reduction.


[EDIT]

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

To be honest, i would be more inclined to trust the feeling rather than the patch notes. Historically, they have had things lost in translation, full details omitted, and thing not clarified.

Also, when increasing crit on my SCH without changing ilvl, it did look like the crit adlos did increase in shield power. But, i didnt do any extensive testing.

I have just taken it that increase in crit increases frequency and magnitude of damage and healing spells.

:).

Seems like the community has something to test and clarify for healers now :)

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Well, two people confirming "the feel" is probably good enough reason to at least take a deeper look at the formula.

Anyone interested in doing the test, here would be my methodology.

1. Record your CRIT amount.
2. Cast Cure / Physick / Benefic on yourself A LOT (record all normal and Crit results)
3. Do the same test with a different crit level (preferably a lot higher or lower, in the magnitude of at least 150)

I would also recommend using a level 1 weapon if possible to reduce variance in the heal amount. As long as know min/max heal, we can get the average amount from the two datapoints. Also, as long as we know the "base heal", the "crit heal", and the crit value we can calculate the bonus multiplier and see if it lines up with Dervy's Crit formulas.

I'll see if I can pull this out sometime this week just to be sure as my curiosity has been raised as well.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

Spell Speed It takes a lot of this to become useful to reall be noticeable. I am at I think 600 SS with 2.47 CD or so. Like every 100 SS you get a -0.01 seconds off your GCD- Say you had 1050 SS, that's ~ 700 from the default which should give you 2.38 seconds GCD. That means every 36 casts you will get a free heal. In terms of saving people, no one should be that close to the brink of death that 0.07 seconds means clearing and not. Spell Speed does however affect your potency on your HoT. I think the effect of this is similar to DET, but as it also lowers you recast time this is more desirable. For my calculation, 100 SS = 0.01 shaved off a 2.5 GCD which means your added healing power is 0.01/2.5 + HoT potency bonus.

Added Healing Power (100 SS): 0.4% without HoTs, ~0.8% with HoTs

Critical Rate and Severity For every 200 Crit, you have a 5% chance to crit more and a 0.1x modifier. As the modifier is in question, I'll leave this out of the calculations.. The added healing power is then (Chance x Added Value) = (5% x 1.5) = 0.05 x 1.5 = 7.5% added to your healing power.

Added Healing Power (100 CRIT): 7.5%

Now, yes, crit is unpredictable, but the added healing power is 18.75x greater for CRIT than DET.

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Your data is flawed:
Spell speed: reduces cast time by 0.01s for every 26.5SS (according to the data earlier in this thread).
So 100SS/26.5 ~ .0377 reduction of cast time.
(2.5-0.0377)/(2.5/100) = 98.5% of cast time. Roughly 1.5% faster cast times. A.k.a. 1.5% more throughput.
Add to that the HoT bonus which I cannot calculate right now but I think you'll easily end up in the 2%+ range.

Crit: 200 crit = 5% chance -> 5% * 0.5!! = 2.5%.
If it doesn't crit you would end up doing 1.0 instead of 1.5. Calculating each crit as an ADDITIONAL 1.5 is wrong.
A modifier of 1.6 would make that a 3% gain.

Sadly I do not have any data for DET.

Something seems off though. According to this napkin math, SS would have double the value compared to crit per stat point. So I do think source data is questionable.
DEVs aren't stupid, they will balance the secondary stats somehow.

Another thought: someone mentioned that 200(?) ACC would add 20% hit chance. Depending on our base hit chance this stat has the chance to outclass every other secondary by a whole order of magnitude, making it the best stat even if it does nothing for the healing. (not sure how important healer DPS is, as I do not raid high end)

I have to admit though: getting sub 5% performance increases for putting in Grade Vs in all of my slots is woefully ... underwhelming. :/

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Snip/

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Thanks for pointing out the issues :) Not sure if it was apparent, but I posted my calculations, so that people could point out errors as such. I'll adjust my original post.

TLDR the added healing power is 6.25x greater for CRIT than DET, and is 1.69x greater for CRIT than SS

CRIT 2.5% increase
SS 1.69% increase
DET 0.4% increase

On this note, the above is really for WHM/AST only. SCH the increase of CRIT is more substantial, as Spell Speed doesn't reduce the cast time of Eos/Selene AND critical hits from Eos/Selene proc a spell speed buff on you. This is coupled with the double shield applied with Adlo

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

TLDR the added healing power is 6.25x greater for CRIT than DET, and is 1.69x greater for CRIT than SS[/I][/B]

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Yet since we still talk about a delta of <1% (I do NOT believe that DET is that bad, makes no sense at all).
So for all intents and purposes: in practice it is completely irrelevant what you meld. The budget just doesn't allow for notable effects to happen. :(

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Yet since we still talk about a delta of <1% (I do NOT believe that DET is that bad, makes no sense at all).
So for all intents and purposes: in practice it is completely irrelevant what you meld. The budget just doesn't allow for notable effects to happen. :(

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I did testing with DET in 2.5, 3.0 and 3.2. In each scenario, 100 DET gave an insignificant change to your heals. The most recent was just a few days ago, where +44 DET gave on average 6.9 HP more.

This makes sense, as we have 1150 MND and 108 Magic Damage on a 230 weapon. Assuming, simply, a 10 to 1 ratio of Magic Damage to MND, that is 2230 MND. Assuming DET is roughly 1/10th of a MND (similarly to other jobs), and say we're close to 600 DET that's 2290 total. We can add in CRIT - but as we're talking about uncritted heals, I am going to leave it out. So I have 2290 equivalent MND and my heals are 3500-> we can conclude 1 MND = adds 1.5 HP. If we assume (correctly or not) DET = 1/10 of MND, then 1 DET = 0.15 HP. Then we can multiply 44 DET as tested, and you get 6.6 HP added. So yes, this falls in line with our assumptions of 1 WD = 10 MND = 100 DET roughly.

The thing is, as we get higher and higher stats, CRIT becomes more powerful (as it applies that chance on to the base heal) where 1.5x a 100 HP heal gives 50 more HP, but 1.5x a 4k heal gives 2k more HP. Conversely, DET becomes weaker (where 6 HP of a 100 HP heal is a substantial increase, but 6 HP of a 4k heal is insignificant).

I see.
Something is seriously broken with DET scaling if that's the case.

DET should be a simple %value of +healing/dps similar to versatility in WoW.
That would decouple DET from the base value and make it a good stat regardless of gear level.

As a tangent to the SpS discussion, keep in mind that SpS doesn't increase your raw output outside of a select small increase to one's HoTs. It just increases how quickly you can output your heal. In a game where it's designed around a rigid combat script, it's a rare occurrence to chain cast that many heals. This can dramatically reduce the marketability of SpS from a healing perspective and is also not easily quantifiable either.

Well SpS benefits both DPS and healing. So unless you stand around SpS still increases your output even when you DPS.

Accuracy is still king though, because one missed spell will necessitate 50 landing spells that each deal 2% more damage/are being cast faster to break even.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Well SpS benefits both DPS and healing. So unless you stand around SpS still increases your output even when you DPS.

Accuracy is still king though, because one missed spell will necessitate 50 landing spells that each deal 2% more damage/are being cast faster to break even.

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Yes, that was true. My comment was directed towards a purely healing aspect of SpS.

It's a shame there's no real way to quantify healer secondary contribution because there are too many factors to accurately simulate.

Yeah it's really difficult to do. Even in WoW I always found healer theorycrafting to be rather sketchy.

Maybe we should be happy that we're talking <1-2% performance delta here. No real way to go so wrong that you "gimp" your character.
It's more about flavor than performance at these levels.

As a random aside, while driving home from work I found out a much better way to test if "Crit gets a potency bonus or not" so I'll see if I can push that through tonight.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

As a random aside, while driving home from work I found out a much better way to test if "Crit gets a potency bonus or not" so I'll see if I can push that through tonight.

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I feel the easiest way is to remove all gear (except weapon of course). Cast heal on yourself a bunch and see the difference between crits vs non crits (average as they tend to fluctuate). Then remove gear and do again (this is assuming you have some crit on your gear to be noticeable)

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Because the opening post had no mention of percentages in the first place.

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Right, but do you really think I'm going to skip what OP said in the 1st place?. His message was very clear. I believe we have to keep this in mind that, we can't take every words straight, sometimes we have to think. But, he was basically asking, what each stat do for healers, so there will be no confusion, so that it helps old and new players. What do you think he really tried to tell us. Stat weights or 1 mind = % (how it affect your char). Maybe I'm just more creative. But people seem to hate even after it made definitely clear. Some guy said, mind = more power. Piety = more mana. But then why we need to know numbers in the first place. Just stack high and you win. This is not the case here IMO.