QFTQuote:
Originally Posted by Zdenka
please Yoshi, throw us archers a bone!
Why do Archers suck so bad against Ifrit?
Printable View
-
10-26-2011, 03:44 AMScodia
-
10-26-2011, 04:13 AMArcellWell, now Archers know what it feels like to be a Pugilist. The MP cost issue is still rough, even with MP on Featherfoot (on evade). That class has been moved further and further from tanking and its damage isn't anything special. I remember thinking I was kind of a wasted spot in Darkhold before I leveled Marauder and Gladiator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exni
-
10-26-2011, 04:19 AMKraususQuote:
Originally Posted by SirEdeonX
whoops yeah my bad, no one but the tank should be getting hit by incinerate, i actually meant eruption -
10-26-2011, 05:16 AMDeadRiserThe new stats that Bayhone posted state that the way to get better buffs is by having points in vitality...Quote:
Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah
and don't Archers have that as a low stat? I know for mine she does. -
10-26-2011, 05:51 AMDargoth_DraconiaThey are useless on Ifrit fight according to parser damage. The best archers can't even do as much damage as the worst lancers. WE just need our damage leveled out compared to other classes for this fight, I am just as strong as ever in stronghold runs etc. The reason I picked Archer from the beginning because they always have their uses in a group and I thought he abilities would go well with Musketeer stuff which I expected to be out by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
But if you have figured out a way to pull 6k minimum damage on a parse then give me your rotation and I will make it work, but where I stand now im SoL. -
10-26-2011, 07:30 AMLavanino such thing as piercing damage anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrien
-
10-28-2011, 02:45 AMBayohne
We passed along the concern that archers (and other classes as well) feel like they're unwanted in Ifrit battles and that is something that the dev. team will be working to fix when making the upcoming class balance adjustments.
-
10-28-2011, 03:00 AMBetelgeuzahMambo number five?Quote:
We passed along the concern that archers (and other classes as well) feel like they're unwanted in Ifrit battles and that is something that the dev. team will be working to fix when making the upcoming class balance adjustments.
-
10-28-2011, 03:04 AMVesperSo Lancer will get nerfed down and MRD or PGL will take its place and the rotation will just continue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
-
10-28-2011, 03:10 AMSephrickSpeaking of class balance adjustments, Yoshida said in a Letter from the Producer in August that the list of changes would be released when 1.19 went live. Any word on why we haven't seen it yet and when it will be released since player feedback was supposed to "help define the direction" the devs take in 1.20?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
-
10-28-2011, 03:31 AMDargoth_DraconiaThanks Bayohne, glad to see a reply in this thread. To the others I think pretty soon they will get the classes well balanced and where they will probably remain til level cap goes up. I am looking forward to 1.20.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
If I am not mistaken Yoshi-P has been going around doing interviews with fan sites again and that is likely why the forums have been a bit more hush hush with content lately. Unless he has already came back to Japan but as far as I am aware he hasn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephrick
-
10-28-2011, 03:34 AMGrissbay could you pass along the reason that lancers are the preferred melee on ifrit is mostly due to seer. the range on the pole arm is just long enough for lancers to hit ifrit with little worry about taking damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
towards the end of the fight players are dancing in a mine field. Now don't take this as a call for seer to be removed from the fight, but try to get the message across to the team that high damage close range aoe moves are almost always at the top of the list of why x melee class is preferred for a given fight over y&z. this has very little to do with skill balancing.
Mater of fact i can with out any hesitation say, that if there was not a perceived lack of damage coming from archer right now it would be the #1 meta game pick to the point of excluding all other dd choices for the fight again. -
10-28-2011, 04:46 AMRichard_BG
Archers wouldn't suck so bad at ifrit if there wasn't animation lock. All of the other damage classes can move while auto attacking and since Archer's Light Shot is not considered an Auto Attack they get animation lock. I'm willing to bet that even though Archers got a heavy nerf, they'd be able to keep up with at least MRD if not higher on a pure tank n' spank fight.
Ofc the animation lock wont be fixed until 2.0 with the new engine anyways so this is all irrelevant up until then. -
10-28-2011, 05:36 AMExniIt's definetly more than just a "perceived" lack of damage. The class has been essentially broken by 1.19, it's not just the Ifrit fight. Archer would still be glossed over as it stands now, as it falls wayyy below the other classes in TP generation, animation lock, and general dps. It got nerf'd all over the place, check out some of the ARC forums for more details on all its ninja nerfs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Griss
-
10-28-2011, 06:05 AMXenor
ARC is so bad I've yet to even upgrade my bow. Still rocking a verdant shortbow. With full out materiaed gear it wouldn't be too bad but MRD and LNC do crazy damage this patch.
Animation lock is the biggest reason ARC sucks against Ifrit. If this isn't reason enough to give ARC auto attack then I don't know what is. It should never have been excluded in the first place. -
10-28-2011, 06:09 AMKyra
Yeah the class got ruined, dont even enjoy playing archer any more. Now its maurauders and lancers turn to be over powered. multishot got so nerfed last patch its not even worth using now, gives 500tp for 1 2 or 3 nocked arrows (doesnt matter) Barrage is a bit stornger but getting to 1500 tp before a mobs dead is almost fking impossible. Widevolley is still nice but its nothing compared to marauders AoE.
Yeah and now multishot is practicaly useless unless your soloing they may as well give us auto attack on the bow. And yeah aso not been invited to ifrit yet in my ls, they go with lancers maurders mages only now. -
10-28-2011, 07:28 AMShai
It is the fault of the LS and the raid leader just as much as it is the game mechanics.
It is undoubtedly easier to take 4-5 Lancers who can stand around out of Sear range than it is to take other melee who must either dance in and out of Sear (not impossible, but takes time/practice/training) or soak up curative effort (self-cures, healers' mp) which a Lancer can simply "not do" as long as they don't stand close enough.
Archer could always be untouched by Sear, but runs the risk of being locked up (more so) by the ground moves. A good Archer, on the other hand, could still dodge and build TP (yup, with punches) avoid Sear and do great spike damage if any LS/Raid Leader was willing to give them the chance to gain that skill.
The mechanics do favor 1 particular class more than another, but really it's bad leadership to make your allies stand on the sidelines while you plow through a fight in easy mode. If you're just learning the fight, then yes maybe you should stick to easy mode - but once you are winning consistently, it's time to get your other LS members involved. It's a fun fight and everyone can pull their weight in there as long as they learn to dodge effectively, including Archers and Pugilists.
My name is Shai Hulud and I take Archers & Pugilists. ^^
(Prefer Lancer, though, if you got it leveled!) -
10-28-2011, 07:44 AMExniSup Shai. Can you link a vid with you taking a group with 2+ ARC's ftw? I'm not doubting you ( remember you from MK ), it's just that I have been looking/asking/hoping for a vid of someone taking a group showing ARC's even being viable in this fight. I'm sure that the other DD would be LNC/MRD but that OK, just seeing a pair of ARC's downing Ifrit would be awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shai
-
10-28-2011, 07:54 AMColdbrand
Don't "adjust balance" by nerfing Lancer. Adjust it by buffing those who need it.
-
10-28-2011, 08:09 AMJinkoPlease listen to this, ideally the devs should be going in and testing all the DPS classes and getting a roughly even result with similar tiered gear and materia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
Obviously if animation lock is causing issue both for DPS and taking damage then it needs to be addressed, I don't think archer can wait til 2.0 -
10-28-2011, 08:27 AMShaiI've only ever (at most) had 1 ARC & 1 PGL in a party (2 LNC, Glad tank), but I guess we could try. Do you play ARC and can you dodge? I don't really know 2 ARC that are geared at the moment due to the great ARC nerf of 2011. I'd need someone to video capture it, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exni
I wasn't posting to brag or anything. I don't usually do "challenge runs" and video it or brag about it. I'm just saying it can be done and if your LS refuse to bring you because you don't have LNC or Sentinel, (and again if they are winning every day without you, not just learning the fight) I would say the problem lies in your LS.
I guess I could think about it if my guy who video's fights is on board. -
10-28-2011, 08:33 AMGemma
If anything PGL needs some attention. Not saying other jobs don't, just saying I can't recall PGL ever getting a break.
Kinda sad I <3 PGL. I didn't even get to do Darkhold yet cause no one ever wanted PGL only ARC.
So yea think PGL needs some love too ; ; -
10-28-2011, 08:42 AMJinkoMoogle could be your chance to shine lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Gemma
-
10-28-2011, 08:43 AMNeasa
Problem is, SE keeps wanting PUG to tank, but the playerbase doesn't see them that way. :\
-
10-28-2011, 08:51 AMDefmetal
They could fix Pug by giving it the ability to evade seer (in the same way Thief could evade AoEs). Even if it came at reduced TP generation. (IE give the ability to dodge AoEs, and get less TP per hit or less damage, there has to be some tradeoff). Of course make it a pug only skill :D
They could fix archer by removing animation lock. Even if Archer deals less damage, it's still safer to bring if they had no lock. Because they could draw a lot of hate for eruptions, and have the eruptions not near the mages or the melee, able to easily sidestep.
Of course they should remove animation lock for all classes period. Even for spells. Just add Interuptions if a mage moves and the problem is solved. Almost no other MMO freezes your character if they use abilities except maybe Guild Wars or FF11 (and even then most people used a JA0Wait) -
10-28-2011, 09:09 AMFreinAnd then when you overdo one class, you again buff everyone else to even it out? Can you say "power creep"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
It's a lie that nerfs are always a bad way to balance a game simply because players feel bad when their class is weakened (class balance is relative, so it's just an illusion anyway). Following a no-nerf policy will lead to characters slowly but uncontrollably growing more and more powerful. -
10-28-2011, 03:54 PMColdbrandPower creep rules. I want an extremely high power level, competition between two broken things is infinitely more fun than competition between two lame things. Marvel Vs Capcom 2 > Street Fighter 4. Legacy > Standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frein
All nerfing does is create an endless stream of flavors of the month. -
10-28-2011, 08:39 PMEldaena
Isn't there a tactic using archers out there to defeat Ifrit? I swore I heard one. Anyway, really any class can be in that fight as long as they know what to do. Archers can stay at the distance lancers do and work the same way to avoid all of Ifrit's ridiculousness. I'm sure bloodletter would be welcomed and their larger mp pools to raise or heal other melee that may need it is an added benefit as well.
-
10-28-2011, 08:53 PMNaytYou're really comparing this with an outright fighting game?Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
What's the point of keeping so bloody high numbers, just for the sake of it? 100 damage when the monster has 1000 hp is
still as much as 10000 damage when they have 100000.
It's less of a sore in the eyes if the numbers are low when you want to make calculations. -
10-29-2011, 12:22 AMZarvladFixed it for you :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
-
10-29-2011, 12:33 AMgrandmit just don't sit well a PUG as a tank, tank need armourQuote:
Originally Posted by Neasa
-
10-29-2011, 01:17 AMOJtheLIONKingAs muich as it pains me to say it as a career-long PLD tank, blink/evasion tanks can work--look at Ninja in FFXI. The problem with pug is it needs either more evasion skills or more countering skills--preferably both. Of course, I'd rather have more DD skills on it myself,I always enjoyed playing MNK as the character who beat people's faces in as well or better than someone using a big sword. Maybe MNK will be more like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by grandm
-
10-29-2011, 01:44 AMDemaciaWho needs armor when you don't get hit?Quote:
Originally Posted by grandm
-
10-29-2011, 01:51 AMgrandmi think you miss understand me. the term tank in MMO comes from the great big metal that we use in wars in RL. all i'm saying is when think tank i think heavy armour, thus when in MMO tank makes me think heavy armour. i'm not saying evading PUG's wouldn't make a good tank. it's just not the image i seeQuote:
Originally Posted by Demacia
-
10-29-2011, 02:06 AMExniNo Bloodletter was seriously nerfed. It's front end and ending damage were majorly reduced, and it's much much MUCH harder to get the DoT to even proc.. especially on Ifrit. And when it doesn't proc, which is most of the time, you just wasted TP (in which TP generation is by far the worst now for ARC) on a WS that does virtually no damage. And bringing an ARC to an 'endgame boss' fight to just support heal clearly shows that the class has been seriously broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldaena
-
10-29-2011, 03:32 AMFreinYet 3rd Strike > MvC2 and TSP Block Constructed was the best MTG constructed format that ever saw sanctioned play. The reason Standard has been more or less bad about since LRW is, funnily enough, power creep. Besides, the only reasons why Legacy hasn't degenerated to a game of constant turn two combo kills is the ban list and the existence of FoW. The meta has heavy RPS elements anyway and man do you feel silly looking at your T1 Nacatl when the opponent opens with T1 Dark Ritual into get you with Tendrils.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldbrand
And buffing doesn't? You buff someone more than the rest and you have your flavour of the month right there.Quote:
All nerfing does is create an endless stream of flavors of the month.
-
10-31-2011, 12:16 AMReikaBy balance adjustments you mean balance 'shifting'. Next class adjustments X class wont be looked at and Y class will be a superpower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
-
11-01-2011, 01:41 AMKraususFeeling Unwanted is a bit of an understatement, our Gladiator is out DPSing Archers in the Ifrit fight. Mana is to much of a precious resource to waist on DPS hence why Lancers shine since they can avoid sear damage effectively cutting out MRD and PGL. Being able to spam cure like we did pre 1.18 was to much but I think this all stems from the great healing nerf either the MP cost is to high or the ability to refill mp pools is to low. Ethers are a joke they are primarily being used to start the mp regen process quicker since it takes way to long for the game to register when someone should be regening MP. Its common practice now for healers to not heal any DPS classes because they have to conserve mp for the tank so DPS classes have to be self sufficient which kind of defeats the purpose of a team based game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayohne
I have a lot of faith in the Dev team but I hope they are not just leaning into the nerf this and nerf that to create balance, they really need to look into the core of these encounters and before they release it test every class and ask themselves is there a reason I would pick any other DPS class to bring over another for this fight? IMO all DPS classes should be viable in every fight some may be a bit better at this or that but the end result should remain the same.
Please pass along to the Dev team that we want balance created not classes nerfed. -
11-01-2011, 08:22 AMYenn
I'm pretty sure Square is on record for saying that blink/evasion tanking was something that they didn't like and wasn't intended to exist
-
11-01-2011, 08:27 AMPhysicblink tanking they didnt plan on, evasion tanking im not sure about, they gave theif a shield early on. As far as archer, its gearing up to be support supposedly. and its still pretty useful in darkhold, ifrit is a burn him down fight, not all encounters will have the same mechanicsQuote:
Originally Posted by Yenn