The arrogance of some people

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

The point? You aren't going to win. This game has a community in which there is no roles anymore - everyone is dps...everyone. Some people agree with this, some don't. Either way, you are going to get bitched at, just do what you are comfortable with, and move on.

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If you are needing to constantly heal the tank to keep him alive most normal people wont mind that you aren't dpsing. What people have a problem with are the ones you see heal, then proceed to jump around the group until the next heal is needed.

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Originally Posted by Fevelle

Support takes precedence over DPS on Bard, but some people can't understand that.

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Oh so you can raise your parser numbers and then complain that bards don't do enough damage here on the forum, is that it?

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Originally Posted by Andrea

I can confirm tanks do not always need cures. People in this game do not need to be at 100% health, Sounds like you are overhealing which is bad in itself.

No other class in the game gets to stand around afk for 10-20 seconds between spells. Theres a reason healers get so many dps skills.

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Yeah for killing stuff for story or relic, or just if we are by ourselves. We have 2 dps in a dungeon for a reason

I normally don't comment on this subject, but I will this time just to get a point across. Don't ask others too use their full tool kit if you are not willing too do the same. If you have healing abilities use them cause I don't care how much they suck, if you have tank capability then use it if the tanks are down or adds are loose. Cause once again I don't care how fast you will die. There is no excuse for every class not to be using their full tool kit, if your making excuses then you are just as bad as the people you call out NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

As a career tank, let me say something here. Tanks aren't made of glass. We don't just break the second our HP drop below 100%. Tanks are actually damn hard to kill in this game as long as they are using their skills effectively. If your tank is bad or poorly geared then no, you probably will not have time to DPS. But if you have a tank that's actively mitigating damage (to the extent that you can in this game, anyway) why not use that time to do something besides stand there waiting for them to get a scrape?



Wrong. Good healers are prepared for many eventualities, and thus carry items to recoup mana. I make Max-Ethers for my static's WHM. Having the item and not needing it is better than needing the item and only having an empty inventory slot.

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Ethers aren't needed maybe for 8man stuff but 4man just throw it away

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Originally Posted by Venom

when I am bard it bugs me when WHM empties their MP pool with stone 2 or 3 or something then asks for Ballad which lowers my dps by 20%.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Isn't helping healers to do dmg the job of bards?

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brd doesnt have infinite mp if u help the healer with foe, u are draining MP , after both are empty , the healer procced to ask for MP....

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

Yeah for killing stuff for story or relic, or just if we are by ourselves. We have 2 dps in a dungeon for a reason

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Its got to the stage where I don't know if you're trolling or not.

If you're ok with healers jumping around between heals and being lazy that is fine by me, but I will just continue to deem them as lazy.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I normally don't comment on this subject, but I will this time just to get a point across. Don't ask others too use their full tool kit if you are not willing too do the same. If you have healing abilities use them cause I don't care how much they suck, if you have tank capability then use it if the tanks are down or adds are loose. Cause once again I don't care how fast you will die. There is no excuse for every class not to be using their full tool kit, if your making excuses then you are just as bad as the people you call out NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

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You seem to be forgetting, I'm a healer if I'm healing I'm doing my job.
If a Dps is slacking which I know they were because hense 40mins in that dungeon don't expect a healer to go all out when dps clealy isn't

You should always carry medicine for whatever job you're on, just in case something goes down and you need them.

Too many people have already stated it, but you seem to wave it off. If you NEED to continuously heal a tank that is dying quickly, then by all means, do so, but not if you're spam healing them at around 80% or above. Don't just stand around and do nothing either, it doesn't take much to switch stance, throw up some DoTs, maybe cast a few spike damage spells. Need to heal quickly but in cast? Just move and change stance as you do and quickly throw up a heal. We don't expect healers to waste all their MP on damage, but enough to actually assist instead of just scratching their asses when they don't have a heal to cast. You may not add that much damage to the entire thing, but you would still make the runs that little bit faster.

I don't need a bard to support me with MP assistance except on really long boss fights, and even then, I can go all-out DPS and heal indefinitely. I would rather they focus on other things. The only time I might run into MP issues - might - is if I keep needing to ress, and if that happens, usually I'm fine just backing off DPS for a little bit.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Its got to the stage where I don't know if you're trolling or not.

If you're ok with healers jumping around between heals and being lazy that is fine by me, but I will just continue to deem them as lazy.

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The thing is this if you read I said i'll occasionally throw out dps (if I got a great group) but if I don't then don't expect much. Reffering to 40mins when that dungeon is 20 25mins tops. Since dps were slacking

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Originally Posted by SlyTribal

Since it was the main part of the OP, yes. The 40 min run was just a minor part of it.

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No, the main part is that you can't compensate bad dps with healer's dps. Sure, healers can use cleric stance, but saying that healers have to dps just means that many of these 'pro healers' are not so pro, because healer's dps is connected with the equip and the skill level of the group (bad tank=no time for dps; dps that can't avoid aoe=no time for dps).

There are people that play both dps and healer jobs. Some might play dps as main role and healer and as a break cause they don't want to worry about doing dps otherwise they would just stay on their dps job. Like if you a whm i don't see anything wrong with throw aero or something on the on mob but throwing on cleric stance and trying to be a second class black mage is what I think most don't like. But regardless of that there will be that will think you are a horrible healer if you don't do this.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

True story: I had a tank that would pull two groups at a time, and would fall down below 50% hp in the blink of an eye. I had to spam Cure I and even some cure IIs to keep him up. Half way through, he bitched at me for not DPSing.
The point? You aren't going to win. Either way, you are going to get bitched at, just do what you are comfortable with.

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There is truth to this, however that was more a case of you having a bad tank than something that will always happen.
If a tank starts dropping below 75% generally dropping cleric stance and curing back to full takes priority over everything, then it's right back to cleric dots and attack spells, out of stance heal, repeat.

If the tank is paying so litte attention to what is going on with their own health it isn't worth listening to them when they try to tell you how to do your job. A damage reducer should almost always be up, bloodbath helps, mercy stroke helps if timed right, it shouldn't all be on the healer.

Some healers aren't comfortable with risking doing anything other than healing and usually that is fine. but really if a healer was curing me from 90% as a healer myself on another character it starts running through my head how many other things i woild be doing and it slightly bothers me, not enough to say anything as long as the party is making it safely and smoothly through the dungeon mind you but i just question it when i don't at least see an aero tag on mobs from time to time

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

You seem to be forgetting, I'm a healer if I'm healing I'm doing my job.
If a Dps is slacking which I know they were because hense 40mins in that dungeon don't expect a healer to go all out when dps clealy isn't

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I understand if your healing your doing your job, I always heal first dps second when I can. I had two over zealous tanks in Saints this week who pulled the mobs at the start of the tunnel leading to queen all the way down too the end of the tunnel. About a minute after reaching the end of the tunnel they get one shot despite them and myself rotating cds. I don't help dps in that scenario as they are taking so much damage so fast I don't got time too.

And my job as a bard is only to DPS, I didn't roll a dps class to sing songs and do party buffs....wait you're saying that people should use all the skills available to them to help the group when applicable? What a shocking idea.

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Originally Posted by Taban

And my job as a bard is only to DPS, I didn't roll a dps class to sing songs and do party buffs....wait you're saying that people should use all the skills available to them to help the group when applicable? What a shocking idea.

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I am so shocked my ears are standing up :D

Typical condescending replies from NA people yay. As a SMN, I've never b*tched around about healers not wanting to dps in expert because I can wreck all of the trashes alone. I've done some solo dps run now and then (1 dps is decided to afk because all of us have life out there) with no problem.
Let them healers play all they want sigh, it's just an ex roulette.

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Originally Posted by Taban

And my job as a bard is only to DPS, I didn't roll a dps class to sing songs and do party buffs....wait you're saying that people should use all the skills available to them to help the group when applicable? What a shocking idea.

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You know what valiid point!
But when is the last time you really had to cast mage ballad besides 8man raids or trials?
NEVER!

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

The thing is this if you read I said i'll occasionally throw out dps (if I got a great group) but if I don't then don't expect much. Reffering to 40mins when that dungeon is 20 25mins tops. Since dps were slacking

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In a 40 minute dungeon run example the dps are at fault.

However in this thread alone you have said to me that, tanks always need cures unless at 100% and that we have DPS skills only for solo content.

Both of those statements are honestly 100% false.

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

Typical condescending replies from NA people yay.

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Not everyone who can speak English is NA.

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

You seem to be forgetting, I'm a healer if I'm healing I'm doing my job.
If a Dps is slacking which I know they were because hense 40mins in that dungeon don't expect a healer to go all out when dps clealy isn't

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Why should you as the healer get to stand around in between heals and do nothing and not play your class to its full potential but expect your dps to? Sounds to me like they were playing the same way you were. Lazily. If everyone in the party played their role the way you play healer then thats what you deserve. If all you want to do is stand around with full mp and only heal then why should the dps even bother moving out of anything? You've got plenty of mp and time to heal them anyways since you aren't doing anything else.

At this point it seems like this was all a troll anyways. This is a hot topic every time it comes up and hasnt been beaten to death in a while now so you figured youd bring it back up. I mean you have Lazy in your username. Pretty fitting for a lazy healer.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

I understand if your healing your doing your job, I always heal first dps second when I can. I had two over zealous tanks in Saints this week who pulled the mobs at the start of the tunnel leading to queen all the way down too the end of the tunnel. About a minute after reaching the end of the tunnel they get one shot despite them and myself rotating cds. I don't help dps in that scenario as they are taking so much damage so fast I don't got time too.

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You can, though. My main tank and I always played it that way (you're the best! I miss you!!). Be sure Stoneskin is on the tank as they start. At the end of the hall once they have everything, quickly hit DS and toss on a Regen. For that pull I'll usually also use Eye for an Eye. Once you've done all this, it may be time for a quick Cure II to top them back off. Then it's all good. Hit CS and do your DPS rotation. I'll do Aero III and then Aero II/Aero on the others - certainly on the main target at the very least - and then it's time to run in and pull off a few Holies. At that point you'll need to take off CS refresh Regen and maybe toss another heal and you can then hit CS and finish them off. So long as the tank is expecting you'll do this and saves cooldowns for when your CS is up, you should be fine, and you have Bene in a pinch so it's not a problem. Not going to say it'll work with all tanks and ymmv, but I'm used to doing this all the time in Saints.

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

You seem to be forgetting, I'm a healer if I'm healing I'm doing my job.

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Not really, you're doing the job, *as you see it*.

The healing classes in FFXIV are all designed to be able to do DPS when they're not healing, which in my experience (and I main White Mage, but sometimes also play Scholar), is most of the time.

Is the tanks health above 70%? Then they don't need healing. Keep your eye on them sure and if you know the fight is about to have some big damage coming up then by all means top them up, but otherwise you should really be DPSing.

Do you have to DPS? No, but as you can see from this thread, it is pretty much expected of a healer to DPS if you're not healing and although you shouldn't get called out on it, as someone else pointed out earlier, you will likely be getting silently judged when you don't.

All the content can be cleared without healer DPSing, Square Enix are big on continually pointing this out, but if you do help out, it's going to go a lot faster. I don't know about you, but I'd rather get whatever it is done so I can get onto something else.

As for your thing about not using Ethers... say what? I'm scared you're going to tell me you also don't carry a stack of Echo Drops too. Sure we hardly ever need to use ethers, echo drops, spine drops and possibly even antidotes, but by having them on you in an emergency you can pop them and help fix the problem.

If you're just not comfortable switching to cleric stance and back then I'd recommend practising on some earlier level 50 dungeons as there's much more time to recover if you get stuck in the wrong mode, but once you get the hang of chaining actions together (press it around 70% of the previous cast) it makes life so much easier in general.

Good lord these topics are always a mine field. Having said that, this is probably the only game I know of where Tanks and Healers are expected to do more than what they are classed as. Not that its a bad thing as it just separates skill blah blah blah etc

It's honestly more of a game problem and a community thing. 2.0 wasn't too bad from what I remember and is how it still should be. It wasn't a requirement nor as expected as much but if you could pump out the DPS to help more then great!

So the first problem. We now have stupidly inflated health pools. Not a bad thing however the damage hasn't really increased that much (correct me if I'm wrong?). So essentially, we've gone up in health but the damage hasn't if that makes sense? (I'm aware our damage has gone up to a certain degree, but with the increased mob HP pool for enemies doubled compared to 2.0 too, it'll take us longer to kill things.) So healers can heal fine and then do nothing due to little damage going about and ONLY on target most of the time. Compared to say WoW, health is dropping down constantly on everyone in the group or the hits are that big on the tank, they have no choice but to heal requiring the healer to stay busy healing.

The other problem seems to have trickled down from raiding in savage. Due to the stupidly strict DPS requirements (due to poor QA testing I might add but dont get me started on that), Tanks and Healers had no choice but to DPS to help out. This as I said, has obviously trickled down into all content. It also doesn't help where content is mind numbingly boring at times in dungeons.

As we further progress into the expansion, then this should be easier to do due the inflated ilvls but sticking it right at the start is just stupid.

To sum it up, it's a design issue and the community have just responded to it to make things more efficient. Until it gets fixed, Tanks and Healers expecting to DPS as well as tank and heal is here to stay for the time being.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Oh great, here we go again.

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I hope this is direct to both groups.

http://i.imgur.com/ZWw1pnc.jpg

Honestly though I think this is why they made AST, for people that don't want to dps can at least buff and inadvertently help the cause.

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

You seem to be forgetting, I'm a healer if I'm healing I'm doing the very least that the game requires of me.

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Fixed that for you

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

http://i.imgur.com/ZWw1pnc.jpg

Honestly though I think this is why they made AST, for people that don't want to dps can at least buff and inadvertently help the cause.

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There it is, you complete me. Thank you XD

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Originally Posted by Bixillarla

Excuse me it is not being lazy. I took healer to heal not DPS. If I wanted to DPS I would play a DPS class. If I keep everyone alive then I am doing my job.

Do you also expect the DPS to throw heals too? If no then why do you expect healers to DPS?

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as a tank i range dps too!

If you are healing only, you are doing the primary part of your job, nothing more. You are in fact being lazy, regardless of wether or not the dps.are also being lazy.

It's not like dpsing doesn't help you either. The stuns provided by holy are essentially a free hallowed ground for the whole group, while damaging the mobs. A HP saved is a HP earned.
Tbh, I have no idea how people can just heal, any time I've tried, I immediately fall back to dpsing because its so boring. Regardless of what you claim to have healed in the past, that does not make you "great" at the role, a great player will use the full toolkit, not just 4-5 spells. But from bashing ethers, I assume you're a troll.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

Like if you a whm i don't see anything wrong with throw aero or something on the on mob but throwing on cleric stance and trying to be a second class black mage is what I think most don't like.

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Any healer trying to do DPS actually has to switch to Cleric Stance to do any real damage. Otherwise their INT level will be so low, the actual damage from something like Aero (potency 25!) is going to be so little, it's probably not even worth bothering about compared to the MP cost.

Were you actually actively healing the whole time, or were you just standing there being lazy?

Usually when healers don't dps, it's the latter. There is NEVER a reason to just stand there doing nothing as any job in the game when you're in a dungeon, so if it was the latter I probably would have said something to you too.

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Originally Posted by Beskar

It's honestly more of a game problem and a community thing. 2.0 wasn't too bad from what I remember and is how it still should be. It wasn't a requirement nor as expected as much but if you could pump out the DPS to help more then great!

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The design of encounters, including some in Savage, really do not encourage tanks to be "more durable", just "durable enough". None of the acessories actively help in mitigating damage so it's almost never preferred over dps acessories (which well, add more dps and actually make your tanking job a bit easier in regards to aggro)

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Originally Posted by Beskar

Compared to say WoW, health is dropping down constantly on everyone in the group or the hits are that big on the tank, they have no choice but to heal requiring the healer to stay busy healing.

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w
Since you brought up WoW, their roles are also enforced much more so based on your specialization rather than job. It enforces it to the point that you actually do not have a lot of passives or skills that are specifically for dpsing, and therefore become less efficient than an actual dps. Gaining gear as a tank also actively makes your role of tanking easier outside of straight armor values. It's more of a problem in FFXIV when a warrior in deliverance stance is not only capable of doing dps, but doing dps comparable to acutal dps jobs. Combine that with natural emnity modifiers in their combos, higher vitality and higher armor values, they are essentially a dps that can happen to tank.


And also, people should stop taking the conjurer quest out of context; Slyphie isn't opposed to "using dps abilities" and wanting to just heal, but rather the refusal to learn about the elements (which isn't exclusively related to using dps spells, at least not explicitly mentioned as such).

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

You know what valiid point!
But when is the last time you really had to cast mage ballad besides 8man raids or trials?
NEVER!

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This morning I use paeon in between pulls. If dps are aoe'ing down a pack they can run out their tp pretty quickly. Besides that I use requiem/paeon/ballad depending on the situation a decent bit.

Some healers just aren't comfortable with DPSing and I'm perfectly OK with that. I'd rather they just heal than to stress them out by making them stance dance.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

And also, people should stop taking the conjurer quest out of context; Slyphie isn't opposed to "using dps abilities" and wanting to just heal, but rather the refusal to learn about the elements (which isn't exclusively related to using dps spells, at least not explicitly mentioned as such).

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She specifically says she only wants to heal. She says she doesn't want to use the element's power as she believes people are stealing them (shown when she realises the Elements are actually helping/lending their power).

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

Lets just put it like this, its the difference between an okay healer and a good healer. Your job is to keep the tank alive, if things die quicker cus of your help they take less damage.

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yaa a healer who can dps shows their skill and confidence in there job. im not that great a healer and yet i manage to heal and dps. Also, if you are so against dpsing as a healer then i hope your not planning on raiding

As healer I can say that I was angry when SE decided to not put Accuracy in Heavensward Healer's Items. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...er-s-equipment
In dungeon doing DPS is the best thing you can do.. More DPS = Faster run = more time to do something else.
As healer I LOVE heal and I HAVE TO HEAL but if I'm seeing a good Tank or a "dead" moment in that fight what I have to do? Rubbing my balls? I switch in Cleric Stance and do some DPS and being helpful in that content.
Talking about Alexander Savage if healers dont do DPS, trust me, 80% of statics cant close the content. Now with this gears of course you can .. but healers help is always a good stuff.
Anyway ALWAYS blame who is arrogant or something like that.. is a game and you have to play and relax how you want/like.. but if someone is giving you an advice.. just take it :)

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Originally Posted by SlyTribal

She specifically says she only wants to heal. She says she doesn't want to use the element's power as she believes people are stealing them (shown when she realises the Elements are actually helping/lending their power).

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Which is entirely different from "i dont want to do anything except heal" in the context of healers not wanting to dps. The problem behind their belief is that she's drawing from her life to heal, and would eventually die from doing so, rather than drawing it from the elements to heal. People are taking her words and taking it out of context from the actual class quest story.