Please be kind - Lowbie dungeon mini-rant

A couple things:

1) DPS queues are 15-30 minutes because there are simply so many of you. If more people played tanks and healers (and played them well) then queue times would be even across the roles, but since people want to try to learn the game by playing a dps instead of something that's just a little bit more demanding, they have themselves to blame for their queue times. Take some responsibility and step up to a higher level. I hear things like this in my own FC all the time. "I don't know what I'm doing, so I'll just dps this." If we all had that mindset there wouldn't be anything but ignorant dps everywhere. Nobody would play a tank or healer to start with because nobody knew what was going on. Does that even make sense?

2) This is why I don't even do leveling roulette any more. I like helping people, but honestly the way we have to go about it is what really kills the motivation. I don't want you to complain about my speed runs any more you want to miss your precious exp. It's not like you're leveling back when dungeons gave half the experience points than they do now. This also doesn't help the queue situation because I'm so turned off from running dungeons with leveling players. I'm sure I'm not the only one, either. So you have the issue of tanks being willing to queue leveling roulette and at least drag you through a dungeon, or you have the rest of us tanks who refuse to even queue your leveling dungeons. Which one is really hurting you?

#sorrynotsorry

Honestly? As a dungeon player I can't be arsed to play DPS.
Not only is DPS braindead boring because of uber simple low level rotations and a snoozefest of a 2.5s GCD, you also have to deal with long queues.

Healer and Tank for life. :<

pre geared pre 60 PLD will have issues holding hate from good dps and healers especially if the others are synched and if you hold good enmity as a pld before 60 then the dps with you is not competent with how to dps.

PLD is the only tank class that has enmity issues they really need to fix the modifiers and all.

I don't really see how that odd 100 law is going to help. Just run 60 since everyone running it now is doing it for the same reason.

I agree with op, recently on my new character I que'ed up as marauder for halatali. I pull the first group, which was I tomahawk the doctore and go to overpower that and the imp.

The healer then fluid aura the doctore well away from me and goes to solo the imp. We kilted both, I go to pull the patrolling bomb, and accidentally agro the mobs in the middle of the room, with out warning, the healer says " I rather have the penalty then kill the whole dungeon" and leaves, didn't even stay to help with the mobs. I wasn't even going to pull everything, it was accidental agro.


People are becoming very jaded in this game, its becoming so unfriendly to newbie that people don't get to learn. Higher up steam roll content and speed through stuff people don't get a chance to really learn how to play.

I think it is a petty excuse to say " its my xxxx run I want out asap" please do that in preformed groups, I would very much like to level in preformed groups, but no does it. And fc only help with one run if they are not busy, making df the best way to level via dungeons.

If you communicate with me, I will do what the majority wants. If you assume, and go about basically soloing, I will be upset. Communication in df needs to become a thing because it does bring the game down when you enter a dungeon for 1 reason and don't get to communicate it. And alot of speed runs skip chests with gear loot. Said loot is helpful to fresh players in some form. Like the plundered mage and war earing in the first 3 dungeons sell alot. With luck of getting full runs and getting those 2, I made over 200k which is a big help when you just starting out.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

pre geared pre 60 PLD will have issues holding hate from good dps and healers especially if the others are synched and if you hold good enmity as a pld before 60 then the dps with you is not competent with how to dps.

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Well of course you will lose threat as an undergeared lowbie against scaled down i210 lv 60s.
But if your gear level is on par you should not have many problems unless DPS focuses one mob while you do AoE tanking.

umm in big pulls good dps switch to aoe moves and good tanks try alternating targets flash and aoe to hold hate but pld lacks in aoe, like scorn is silly. single boss targets plds do ok but to multi trash not.

If a tank cant hold all hate and survive a big pull then they should maybe pull less? I have seen to many times like a tank pulling far more than they can manage healer dies then dps then tank and the respawn and tank does same thing again. Then the tank blames the other team members of trying to burn the huge pull down asap and are like single target what im attacking, on a mass pull single target makes zero sense.

Again what I say to tanks you control the flow of battle and don't chew more than you can handle enmity wise.

Went to Qarn Hard with my FC friend who didn't have 3.0 and at most he had as i110 Animus Zodiac weapon as a PLD tank.
I was a WHM and the other two DPS were both i200 weapon wielding BLMs...

#AOEPARTYWOOPWOOP

BLMs pulled mobs without him and generally burned the whole dungeon down as fast as they could while he ran around flashing and trying his best but it just could not be enough.
Yep... I felt so bad... I joined in with Holy too.
Still by the end he took it well and "XD" smiled and said he'll aim to get Heavensward soon.

I'd hate to imagine what it'd be like if it were someone else with low ilvl gear...

On many dungeons, the devs have boosted the xp on the final boss while lowering or keeping low the xp gain from normal enemies. This was done to minimize server strain that used to occur due to people speed running the first room of Dzemael and Aurum Vale, withdrawing, then rerunning the dungeon over and over again.

As a result, for many people in low level dungeons, there is no perceivable gain to farming optional rooms. When factoring in final boss xp and daily roulette bonus xp, the few enemies you are skipping are simply not worth the time. While there are exceptions to this, such as the amazing xp bonus you can get from letting Aurum Vale seedlings hatch, the average side room offers little gain and even an abnormal amount of risk.

Of the groups that I've seen attempt the last "optional" room in stone vigil, more than half of them wipe due to the combination of scattered ice sprites dealing high magic damage, and powerful status effects from the bird enemies. If a tank fails to put enmity on all of the targets, the healer will die quickly, and many undergeared tanks that succeed in picking up all of the enemies will die from too much incoming damage. All of that, for a handful of enemies that give you only slightly more xp than similar enemies you encounter in the open world.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Unless they recently hotfixed that. It's been a while since I have leveled there:

There is a factor of 10 between seedlings and hatchlings.
Seedlings give around 300, hatchlings around 3000.
It makes a HUGE difference to leveling folks and the hatchlings are very easy to kill, which is why I always ask if we can let them hatch..

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As of...Last week? It was the same. Believe me, I had to run the bloody place 3 times.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Please take note, SE: By forcing players to rerun old content beside those who might be newer to it, you've created the "Mythflox" mentality all over again. Just wait til players start getting kicked on entry for not being the "optimal" job to run it quickly.

This is history repeating itself now. Not sure about anyone else, but I was certainly enjoying the game a LOT more before relics (and some of the bad player attitudes) were brought back. . .

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worse then that, yesterday I was in Keeper of the Lake, although we had a new player and a healer at that and SAID it as much, the nin, purposedly, went and pulled the entire room picked all the mobs at the start ALL of them including the frog and what not in the back of the tank that Grabbed only a small portion of mobs. the healer managed to keep us all up, but the purpose behind it was to have the healer kicked for incompetence.......when I asked him why he went to pick all those mobs..there was a total mutism and after that the runs went very nicely...it leaves no doubts about the intention, initial intention of that guy.

I hope it was just a isolated occurrence but I fear for the future new player if this way of going about is anything BUT an isolated occurrence.

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Originally Posted by NoahArks

Commendation are bad since heavensward. I started leveling a tank the moment I got my lvl60 mch and whenever I had new players in my team they didn't even give any or say thanks.

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Quite often whenever I try to give commendation to X player in the group, they leave the dungeon faster than I can give it to them. :(

I give/receive commendations all the time, I haven't noticed that to be an issue.

Just jumping in as a devil's advocate a little. I see a lot of people ragging on some suggesting that the new players should be considerate of the grinders as well. This is true, and it's a team game. The new players should consider the vets as much as the other way around. An experienced tank shouldn't have to guess that the new people want to kill everything, so speak up. If the new person says "Can we kill everything?" Tank says "I'd rather not." and then the 2 other people chip in, you have a vote. Let's just communicate.

I was called an elitist jerk for saying I'd rather not once, even though I went ahead and did it after finding out everyone else wanted to kill everything. I don't get why having your own opinion and motives makes you selfish or a jerk. Everyone has their reasons for being there, so instead of making it an us vs them and everyone else are jerks out to get us, talk about it. Most people are actually nice if you give them the chance to be.

Doesn't matter if you've run something a million times. Not everyone has. You may run into someone who's running a dungeon for the FIRST time when it's your hundredth. That doesn't put the fault on the new player. I understand you NOT wanting to run every little crevice, but if it's that much of a hassle for you, then go get your FC mates to run the dungeon unsync'd with you instead of using the df.

Now I will say, I'll assume we're good to go for a speed run if I enter a dungeon and there is not "someone is new" notification. But if someone says something, I will always run the entire dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

Doesn't matter if you've run something a million times. Not everyone has. You may run into someone who's running a dungeon for the FIRST time when it's your hundredth. That doesn't put the fault on the new player. I understand you NOT wanting to run every little crevice, but if it's that much of a hassle for you, then go get your FC mates to run the dungeon unsync'd with you instead of using the df.

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Is this in reply to me?

As I understand it from your post, you're saying there is an inverse relationship between how much you've run content and how much your opinion matters in a group?

Also, suggesting people group doesn't work as the only reason they are there is the leveling roulette bonus.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

Now I will say, I'll assume we're good to go for a speed run if I enter a dungeon and there is not "someone is new" notification. But if someone says something, I will always run the entire dungeon.

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That is mighty nice of you, but it shouldn't be an expectation. The expectation should be to communicate preferences. When I am new to a dungeon, the last thing I personally want my tank doing is running slowly. I want him to do massive pulls. If he saw the new notification and started doing that, I'd be dreading the entire dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Klamor

I like helping people, but honestly the way we have to go about it is what really kills the motivation. I don't want you to complain about my speed runs any more you want to miss your precious exp.

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This right here is your problem Klamor. You don't understand the intent of Duty Roulette. You have an enhanced reward to compensate you for the time and effort need to help newer players through the leveling process. It's NOT your speed run, it is THEIR EXP run. Maybe you should not be a jerk about the EXP that they need because you miss your precious speed run? If you don't want to take the time to actually help, then run something else. You're not helping people by trampling them en route to your latest speed run.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

I hope it was just a isolated occurrence but I fear for the future new player if this way of going about is anything BUT an isolated occurrence.

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I don't know how to implement or enforce a policy such as the one I am about to suggest, but I think that we really do need to do something to segregate the players speed running stuff in order to farm whatever farmable thing they need from those players running Duty Roulette to actually help new players. It would help new players immensely to have folks who want to help running those dungeons with them.

Perhaps the best thing is to alter the DR reward so that it's not something that is needed by players for their relic upgrade or gear upgrade, and is more of a horizontal progression reward. Maybe awarding a pair of rare dyes, or a MGP bonus as the reward instead of Tomes. I don't know what would work best, but giving tomes or anything else that has immediate application to the current relic upgrade path is counter productive to the intent of Duty Roulette, and for that matter it's counter to the intent behind the enhanced reward for running anything in Duty Finder with a 'new' player. Both DR and those enhanced rewards are intended as compensation to those players helping the new player. I do not honestly believe that the reward is deserved by anyone dragging new players through a speed run against their will, or who simply doesn't care to consider the new player's needs.

We all had the benefit of running stuff with people at the same level as us, or the same stage of the game. But as time passes, the lead pack of players becomes further removed from their own start in the game and cease considering the things that affect players who are just now starting. It's like they have forgotten what it felt like to be starting out, and lack any compassion or fellow feeling for the new players.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

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Nope, it wasn't directed at you, just the entire thread in general. By no means am I saying the grinder shouldn't be considered. But I'm saying, the fact that you've run a dungeon a hundred times doesn't all of a sudden give you the right to say the dungeon will automatically be a speed run at the newbies expense. Everyone started at some point, it's best to be considerate on all aspects. I can't tell you how many times I've run castrum and praetorium. I do understand the monotony and the want to speed run it regardless of how many new players are there. But if I see a newbie who shows up, says he's new and is willing to skip the cutscenes in order to learn the dungeon, I will forcefully slow the pace down a bit to help them. Though, I've very often gotten the backlash from this due to those elitists who can't be held up an extra 5 min to give a short explanation. In these cases, it almost always comes down to whether or not the other tank is on board with me or wants to rush as you can get through both with 4 experienced players honestly.

And the reason DF gives more reward is BECAUSE you are being queued up with randoms for a random dungeon run. It's to encourage players to play content they otherwise would forego so that newer players aren't screwed over and can still get through content.

And I do not expect everyone to do what I do. I just personally like to go the extra mile to help new players as I like doing so. I agree that communication is key as I would prefer to speed run as well if no one HAS to do something specifically (like map the dungeon or just going for the xp).

And I usually gauge my pulls based on healer's ability after pulling small to start. If things go smooth, I'll pull more. If the healer seems to like DPS'ing and let's my hp drop to 1/3, I'll usually keep it to smaller pulls. But the difference in my "speed runs" compared to my regular are usually at most, 5 minutes difference. Sure, you can say that's a lot, but I can also say, majority of my wipes have come from "speed runs" and almost all of the times someone has abandoned a dungeon on me has been due to them as well. Speed runs require EVERYONE on your team to be up to par.
1. If tank can't hold aggro, the party's going to wipe.
2. If healer can't keep up with the dmg, the party is going to wipe.
3. If the DPS can't burn the mobs quick enough, the party is going to wipe because of 1 or 2 occurring due to lack of TP/MP.

It only takes a single weak link to cause wipe after wipe with speed runs (which then makes a run take 10 minutes LONGER than a normal run).

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I don't know how to implement or enforce a policy such as the one I am about to suggest, but I think that we really do need to do something to segregate the players speed running stuff in order to farm whatever farmable thing they need from those players running Duty Roulette to actually help new players. It would help new players immensely to have folks who want to help running those dungeons with them.

Perhaps the best thing is to alter the DR reward so that it's not something that is needed by players for their relic upgrade or gear upgrade, and is more of a horizontal progression reward. Maybe awarding a pair of rare dyes, or a MGP bonus as the reward instead of Tomes. I don't know what would work best, but giving tomes or anything else that has immediate application to the current relic upgrade path is counter productive to the intent of Duty Roulette, and for that matter it's counter to the intent behind the enhanced reward for running anything in Duty Finder with a 'new' player. Both DR and those enhanced rewards are intended as compensation to those players helping the new player. I do not honestly believe that the reward is deserved by anyone dragging new players through a speed run against their will, or who simply doesn't care to consider the new player's needs.

We all had the benefit of running stuff with people at the same level as us, or the same stage of the game. But as time passes, the lead pack of players becomes further removed from their own start in the game and cease considering the things that affect players who are just now starting. It's like they have forgotten what it felt like to be starting out, and lack any compassion or fellow feeling for the new players.

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I definitely like your idea. I feel the reward needs to be altered so that the conflicting incentives aren't there.

They could also just have any mobs exp that are not killed added to the completion exp. So, if you kill everything or don't kill everything you still get full exp.

Alternatively, they could add an option in the DF for "Newbie Friendly" or "Full Run" or whatever that you can tick, so that you are paired with like-minded individuals.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

Nope, it wasn't directed at you, just the entire thread in general. By no means am I saying the grinder shouldn't be considered. But I'm saying, the fact that you've run a dungeon a hundred times doesn't all of a sudden give you the right to say the dungeon will automatically be a speed run at the newbies expense. Everyone started at some point, it's best to be considerate on all aspects. I can't tell you how many times I've run castrum and praetorium. I do understand the monotony and the want to speed run it regardless of how many new players are there. But if I see a newbie who shows up, says he's new and is willing to skip the cutscenes in order to learn the dungeon, I will forcefully slow the pace down a bit to help them. Though, I've very often gotten the backlash from this due to those elitists who can't be held up an extra 5 min to give a short explanation. In these cases, it almost always comes down to whether or not the other tank is on board with me or wants to rush as you can get through both with 4 experienced players honestly.

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Ah for sure. I am not disagreeing with you. I often will stop and explain things to new players, as long as they speak up and say something. Or sometimes if I see the new bonus, I'll ask "Do you know what to do here?" etc.

I've definitely seen people race in without explanation, and I'll try to explain while we fight. It's very annoying, and I agree with that.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

And the reason DF gives more reward is BECAUSE you are being queued up with randoms for a random dungeon run. It's to encourage players to play content they otherwise would forego so that newer players aren't screwed over and can still get through content.

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The argument for DF giving reward as a purpose of rewarding helping new players is, in my opinion, not a very good argument. It may be the purpose of it, but it obviously doesn't work as intended. Telling someone they 'should' act in a way that they aren't isn't going to make them all of a sudden do that. You either need strict rules or rewards for the behaviour that you want.

The best way to go about this is rewarding behavior that you want. Unfortunately, the current system rewards the opposite. It provides the same reward despite the time taken, so naturally the best reward is for speed runs. If you really want to reward someone for helping out, add something similar to the commendation system only if you are new. Have it ask, rate the following player among "Did they go out of their way to help you learn this instance?" "Did they obstruct you from learning this instance?" If they say yes to the first, you get double the reward, if they say yes to the second you get 0 reward, if they say no to both you get normal rewards.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

And I do not expect everyone to do what I do. I just personally like to go the extra mile to help new players as I like doing so. I agree that communication is key as I would prefer to speed run as well if no one HAS to do something specifically (like map the dungeon or just going for the xp).

And I usually gauge my pulls based on healer's ability after pulling small to start. If things go smooth, I'll pull more. If the healer seems to like DPS'ing and let's my hp drop to 1/3, I'll usually keep it to smaller pulls.

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As for your note on the healer, as a healer, I'd also find this frustrating. I can adapt as a healer to the size of pulls, and will fit in as much DPS as I think I can handle. I know what skills I have on CD (bene/lustrate for example) and can time your hp to go down as such. Some times this means I'll let your HP drop to 20%, but I won't let you die. This doesn't mean I can't handle a larger pull or don't want you to pull larger.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

But the difference in my "speed runs" compared to my regular are usually at most, 5 minutes difference. Sure, you can say that's a lot, but I can also say, majority of my wipes have come from "speed runs" and almost all of the times someone has abandoned a dungeon on me has been due to them as well. Speed runs require EVERYONE on your team to be up to par.
1. If tank can't hold aggro, the party's going to wipe.
2. If healer can't keep up with the dmg, the party is going to wipe.
3. If the DPS can't burn the mobs quick enough, the party is going to wipe because of 1 or 2 occurring due to lack of TP/MP.

It only takes a single weak link to cause wipe after wipe with speed runs (which then makes a run take 10 minutes LONGER than a normal run).

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I guess our experiences differ. I never wipe as the result of a speed run, or I should say rarely. I've mostly wiped on bosses due to people not understanding or performing mechanics.

5 minutes on a 20 minute run is an extra 25%, this can add up to a lot when extrapolated upon a long grind. I'd say that my times vary a lot more than that though. I know we are mostly talking about leveling instances, but I'll give an example of Fractals. The longest run in Fractals (without wipes) that I have had is 45 minutes, and the shortest is 13 minutes. That is over 3x as long, and can make a huge difference.

As for everyone being up to par, I'd say you only need 2-3 up to par. A good healer and a good DPS can keep things going, the DPS will grab hate, but the healer will keep them alive long enough for the DPS to burn them down. I've seen speed runs with this sort of set up. That said, I agree that the more people who are capable, the better.




On a separate note, I'd like to add that I also like speed runs not just so that I can get my rewards faster. I find running a dungeon faster and pushing myself to be a lot more exhilarating and enjoyable. The content is quite stale when going slow by comparison. So it's, in part, just for my enjoy-ability of the content.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I definitely like your idea. I feel the reward needs to be altered so that the conflicting incentives aren't there.

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Thanks and I definitely agree with you. I know it would be easy to take my stance as being hostile to players grinding out stuff for relics or other upgrades. I'm not hostile to that at all, I know it's a necessary part of being among the first to obtain such upgraded gear. But putting those players into Duty Roulette where their need is in conflict with the purpose of DR hurts them as well as those who DR is meant to help.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

They could also just have any mobs exp that are not killed added to the completion exp. So, if you kill everything or don't kill everything you still get full exp.

Alternatively, they could add an option in the DF for "Newbie Friendly" or "Full Run" or whatever that you can tick, so that you are paired with like-minded individuals.

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I think that a newbie friendly DF option would be a terrific idea as well. If both ideas were implemented, DR would actually work as intended, and DF would be a more friendly place for all with the option to indicate you're newbie friendly, since it would cut down on the conflicting aims of players.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

The argument for DF giving reward as a purpose of rewarding helping new players is, in my opinion, not a very good argument. It may be the purpose of it, but it obviously doesn't work as intended. Telling someone they 'should' act in a way that they aren't isn't going to make them all of a sudden do that. You either need strict rules or rewards for the behaviour that you want.

The best way to go about this is rewarding behavior that you want. Unfortunately, the current system rewards the opposite. It provides the same reward despite the time taken, so naturally the best reward is for speed runs. If you really want to reward someone for helping out, add something similar to the commendation system only if you are new. Have it ask, rate the following player among "Did they go out of their way to help you learn this instance?" "Did they obstruct you from learning this instance?" If they say yes to the first, you get double the reward, if they say yes to the second you get 0 reward, if they say no to both you get normal rewards.

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I fully agree with you on this part. The reward system doesn't support the intent. But it does not change the intent for the system being put in place. This is more so one of those community standards within the game that we created. It's ok to speed run because we don't require everyone in our team to be with us on some of these runs. Simply put, it creates a negative environment for the newbies.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

As for your note on the healer, as a healer, I'd also find this frustrating. I can adapt as a healer to the size of pulls, and will fit in as much DPS as I think I can handle. I know what skills I have on CD (bene/lustrate for example) and can time your hp to go down as such. Some times this means I'll let your HP drop to 20%, but I won't let you die. This doesn't mean I can't handle a larger pull or don't want you to pull larger.

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I expect healer's I know to edge me. I do not expect random healers in DF to try to edge me without prior notification. If they do, I will simply assume the worst and adjust my play style to match. Especially if said healer allows DPS's to drop. If I notice you upkeep everyone well, you seem to always have me when I hit 20% hp and you say you can handle more, then sure, I'll pull bigger mobs. But if you're quiet and don't give me any notification that you can handle it, I most definitely will not. As a tank my 1st priority, mindset wise, is the preservation of the party as a whole to get through the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I guess our experiences differ. I never wipe as the result of a speed run, or I should say rarely. I've mostly wiped on bosses due to people not understanding or performing mechanics.

5 minutes on a 20 minute run is an extra 25%, this can add up to a lot when extrapolated upon a long grind. I'd say that my times vary a lot more than that though. I know we are mostly talking about leveling instances, but I'll give an example of Fractals. The longest run in Fractals (without wipes) that I have had is 45 minutes, and the shortest is 13 minutes. That is over 3x as long, and can make a huge difference.

As for everyone being up to par, I'd say you only need 2-3 up to par. A good healer and a good DPS can keep things going, the DPS will grab hate, but the healer will keep them alive long enough for the DPS to burn them down. I've seen speed runs with this sort of set up. That said, I agree that the more people who are capable, the better.

On a separate note, I'd like to add that I also like speed runs not just so that I can get my rewards faster. I find running a dungeon faster and pushing myself to be a lot more exhilarating and enjoyable. The content is quite stale when going slow by comparison. So it's, in part, just for my enjoy-ability of the content.

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Well, I'm not going to say I wipe a lot during speed runs, but I also don't do speed runs unless I feel comfortable with the team (or sometimes I'll simply ask right off the bat and wait for answer). Some exceeded expectations, some more than failed. It's more so that when we start failing during speed runs, it's usually grueling because very seldom is it a 1 time fail. It's usually going to be a few. But AV is probably where this happens the most for me. I tend to get AV a lot on roulette unfortunately T_T

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

But if you're quiet and don't give me any notification that you can handle it, I most definitely will not. As a tank my 1st priority, mindset wise, is the preservation of the party as a whole to get through the dungeon.

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Moral of the story, let's all communicate :)

I just assume everyone isn't trying to spend 50 minutes in a dungeon.

My personal rules to not hate DF are as follows:
1. Make sure and ask if I want something done like a full clear.
2. Accept that majority rules and don't get upset if I'm out voted.

If I'm looking to really control my experience, I'll setup a run with friends/LS/FC.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

This right here is your problem Klamor. You don't understand the intent of Duty Roulette. You have an enhanced reward to compensate you for the time and effort need to help newer players through the leveling process. It's NOT your speed run, it is THEIR EXP run. Maybe you should not be a jerk about the EXP that they need because you miss your precious speed run? If you don't want to take the time to actually help, then run something else. You're not helping people by trampling them en route to your latest speed run.

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I guess you missed the part where I stated I don't run leveling roulettes any more. I've been taking your advice to "run something else" for a while now. But, thanks for your opinion.

Also, as had been said before, the experience reward for killing mobs has been reduced and the boss' experience reward is increased. Tell me again how the extra time taken to kill trash, that could be used to kill more bosses, helps people level faster. Please, I'd love to hear it again.

You're also assuming I just told new players to go pack sand when they asked to kill everything; assuming they would even ask up-front, and didn't just stay silent until midway through the dungeon and then decide to bitch about skipping side rooms. If the party wanted more experience, I would generally oblige. We're not jerks just because we want to do things in the most efficient manner possible. Don't try to act like all of us cleared the entirety of every dungeon, every time we ran it, when we were leveling. I certainly didn't, but I was also coming out of the beta at a higher level than a lot of people were starting out.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

Doesn't matter if you've run something a million times. Not everyone has. You may run into someone who's running a dungeon for the FIRST time when it's your hundredth. That doesn't put the fault on the new player. I understand you NOT wanting to run every little crevice, but if it's that much of a hassle for you, then go get your FC mates to run the dungeon unsync'd with you instead of using the df.

Now I will say, I'll assume we're good to go for a speed run if I enter a dungeon and there is not "someone is new" notification. But if someone says something, I will always run the entire dungeon.

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Speed runs depend much on the overall group. Whenever I am asked if I can handle speedruns, my answer is generally this one *i dont know, since i dont know you, so lets try and we will know* not a single speed run is the same as the prior speed run in the same place. People as a whole and not only one or two are responsible for the success or failure of a speed run. Is DPS fast? is the tank good at managing his own CDs and aggro ? are people as a whole sufficiently geared or have all their skills to face a speed run and etc etc etc....

just me though. I had a tank with ilvl 28 in Dzemael pull all the rooms.because he wanted a speed run...how long you think he lasted? it has to be said that tanks often misjudge their own capacity/ability to make a speed run BUT rarely do they set themselves into question is always either healer or dps fault.

I also met this kind of tank that I specifically TOLD I couldnt handle a speed run ebacuse I was well undergeared when I did the Aery back in time and I was well undergeared, guess what ? the tank in question rushed all the places all the mobs packs of mobs, I couldnt handle that at all, and wiped several times until i took the penalty. You might be an exception Malice, and I wished that people started using their brains and common sense rather then play the solo in a group attitude .

This thread feels like the parser thread we had a couple of weeks ago.

Players wanting to play how they want. This will always create a them VS them.
People should speak up, and both should try and understand each other.

It's true, some of the veteran players like to rush (be it a tank, heal or DPS). I can understand it, but you can't blame them if no-one speaks up. And if you speak and they leave or kick you, so be it, better to not run a dungeon with someone that might be name-calling the entire dungeon.

Keep also in mind, that some of the veteran players, myself included tried to help a lot of players, but we got bad reactions, in the end, you don't always wan't to help others anymore. And before you say that I need to run the dungeons with my FC/friends, yeah true, that could help, and I do it a lot, but they are not always there, or I don't want to be a burden for them.

Also, what says that the new player will not become a speed runner himself in the future?

To conclude, jerks will be jerks (both on Veteran as Newbie side) and try to communicate.

No offence but at times people DO speak and are ignored. Like the case with what happen with me as a tank, the guy didn't give anyone a second to communicate, I would have explained the agro was accidental and am not pulling everything. People do need to stop blaming content for their attitudes. Mmo are known for being repetitive, forced or not. Content is Rarely 1 and done.

Also df is suppose to be all inclusive, dr is part of ff14 mentor thing, it suppose to reward people for running stuff. People just use it to farm. Thing is you can set up a party and run stuff, That is the purpose of it. If I recall correctly all Arr lvl 50 dungeons reward poetics, just form parties and farm them.

Consideration needs to go both ways, not just put blame on ppl not speaking up. In alot of cases people do speak up and are ignored, I even stepped up in my communication and at times it's awkward because it feels like people go "who cares" even got told off for "talking too much". All I did was ask what people wanted. And said why I was there and not to attack stuff I didn't pull (was tank) basic communication and most of the time I met with silence.

Like I said communication needs to become a thing... it makes the game way more fun if people work together. Getting very tired of "playing solo while in a group" and "does my own thing" mentality ff14 community is developing.


@ reisui

Thing is about the help is most people admit to forcing it. To truly help a person out it best if you offer to, ask if they want advice. If you give it out with out asking it is seen as an insult. People learn in many different ways based how their mind works, how their personality is and how they were raised.

For me I'd rather learn by doing, I'm up for advice if you ask me, as I'm pretty open for tips. Thing is I'm more a learn as I'm doing. Practice by doing, and people giving me room to learn. I don't like stuff forced on me, as it just causes me stress and anxiety (part of my autism). You also can't force a person to learn, if someone isn't playing well and giving a bad attitude and making your job/role much harder you are free to kick or leave.

Don't stop helping people over a few bad apples, that just generalizing.


@ speed runs

I wish people didn't force it, I wish thru didn't make it an expectation in df. Again part of my autism is anxiety, and another aspect is bad coordination. This really comes out when I'm stressed and having anxiety. Speed runs make me anxious due to having to be rushed, I personally make more mistakes doing speed runs then just pulling naturally. anti anxiety meds help as if mostly playing with my bf, but if I'm solo queing I personally don't feel comfortable speed running. I'll try if that is what the group wants but, all I ask is not be ragged on if I make mistakes.


If someone comes up and saying I'm using it as a cutch, I'm not. Explaining how a disability can effect you isn't using it as a cutch I never once played victim, and try to apologies for my mistakes.

Just to be clear, I've only been recently diagnosed and still coming to terms with it, and learning about it. Still learning ways to cope, and still learning ways to not have it be an issue to myself and others.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

You might be an exception Malice, and I wished that people started using their brains and common sense rather then play the solo in a group attitude .

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Wait, I'm confused as to what I might the exception for? I am not someone who tries to speed run everything. I only do that after I look and see everyone is well overgeared for a dungeon and no "new player" notification pops. Then I'll ask. Otherwise, I always gauge the party in the first pull and increase from there if it seems to go real smooth. That may have gotten a bit confusing with the "I'll assume we're good" part in my quote.

But yes, I totally agree that speed runs are dependent on the party as a whole. What I was getting at was that it only takes 1 weak link for a speed run to turn into a "let's take twice as long due to wipes" run. If the DPS are the weak point, it's more likely that you'll be able to push through, but it'll still be a slow run due to the lack of burning. But if a tank or healer can't hold up with the speed run, it's pretty much certain you're going to wipe.

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No offence but at times people DO speak and are ignored. Like the case with what happen with me as a tank, the guy didn't give anyone a second to communicate, I would have explained the agro was accidental and am not pulling everything. People do need to stop blaming content for their attitudes. Mmo are known for being repetitive, forced or not. Content is Rarely 1 and done.

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That's correct.
You had a jerk in your team, and I feel sorry for it.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

But yes, I totally agree that speed runs are dependent on the party as a whole. What I was getting at was that it only takes 1 weak link for a speed run to turn into a "let's take twice as long due to wipes" run. If the DPS are the weak point, it's more likely that you'll be able to push through, but it'll still be a slow run due to the lack of burning. But if a tank or healer can't hold up with the speed run, it's pretty much certain you're going to wipe.

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I love when we wipe during the bees in Arboratorium because tank said to focus on wall but not stunning the Hornet.
Typical case of a speed run going wrong.

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Originally Posted by Reisui

That's correct.
You had a jerk in your team, and I feel sorry for it.

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1 of many sadly that I run into as a tank on Na side -_-;;

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

Thing is about the help is most people admit to forcing it. To truly help a person out it best if you offer to, ask if they want advice. If you give it out with out asking it is seen as an insult. People learn in many different ways based how their mind works, how their personality is and how they were raised.

For me I'd rather learn by doing, I'm up for advice if you ask me, as I'm pretty open for tips. Thing is I'm more a learn as I'm doing. Practice by doing, and people giving me room to learn. I don't like stuff forced on me, as it just causes me stress and anxiety (part of my autism). You also can't force a person to learn, if someone isn't playing well and giving a bad attitude and making your job/role much harder you are free to kick or leave.

Don't stop helping people over a few bad apples, that just generalizing.

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Thanks for your understanding, I try my best to help everyone, as long as they are open for it. I just hope the same in return, that they respect us also, we've seen a lot, did a lot, so we're well placed to give advice.

@Malice, that is not what I meant *lol*... an exception as to taking to some extend the group as a whole to decide if you going to make a speed run or not ..if this makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Azazua_azura

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I'm really sorry you've had experiences where you were just flat out ignored or told off for speaking :(

If you are ever grouped with me and speak up requesting a slower run, I'd be happy to oblige. I do default to running faster though, as I mentioned earlier, it's much more fun to me. To clarify, I don't mean it's kind of more fun, I mean I have fun when I speed run and I am bored to tears when we go slowly. It's a fairly large difference, hence my gravitation towards faster runs.

I don't go into a DF dungeon with any expectations. I'll do whatever the rest of the party decides to do, simple as that. I just want a smooth run. As long as I get that I'm happy.

That being said, I believe that majority vote should rule on whether or not to speedrun something. For example, yesterday I did the main story roulette. One person was new and said they planned to watch all cutscenes. No one complained but continued on through the instance. That new player started complaining, asking the party to run the instance "as intended" and calling everyone jerks for not doing so.

That instance is, what, two years old now? It sucks that they came into the game late, but it's old content and everyone let them watch the cutscenes anyway. But, to them, majority vote did not seem to matter. I followed along with the party without saying too much. I just wanted my run done one way or another,a nd also did not feel like getting into an argument that seemed to be going nowhere (at some point the party was compared to Nazis, lol, I don't even... No one was even being rude to the new player.).

When I did the main story (I've been playing since 2.0 closed beta) people were already in the speed-run mentality of that place. I knew that, expected it, watched my cutscenes as they ran through. It's not a big deal.

I have no issues with speed running be it a low level dungeon or high level dungeon. But the priority of one player does not dictate the priority of the group in a dungeon. If you enter a dungeon you are part of a team, and need to play as a team member. Tempers flare and wipes happen when people chose too ignore the priorities and capabilities of the group. Communication in dungeons is not as good as it should be, but stating what your priority is when entering can help the group decide how too proceed.

Interesting thread, I'm currently running a little experiment as I've never understood the "skip as many mobs as possible" mentality many tanks have in leveling content. I'm leveling both WAR and DRK (WAR from 19, DRK from 30) I've decided to do all my leveling through dungeons in the DF.
I start with the same greeting everytime (it's actualy a macro lol) and it basically says hello then asks if the group want a full clear or to skip to boss fights. I'm treating it like a 3 person democracy, my vote doesn't count as I'm fine with either so the other 3 people get to vote with how the dungeon goes. So far I've done about 20-30 dungeon runs doing this and not once has anyone said they didn't want the exp and want to skip mobs, in every single instance at least 1, sometimes 2 but never 3 people have said they'd like to do a full clear for the exp. I'm going to do this all the way to 60 with both tanks (as well as PLD when they catch up to it at lvl 50) and I'm interested to see how it goes, I'm sure eventually someone is going to want to skip but if they get out voted its tough luck for them.

I'm now getting used to people getting the mapping achievment lol, especially in Haukke Manor. The biggest difference so far though is Brayflox's longstop, if you skip mobs in there you probably come away with half the exp and miss loads of chests which gearing players want. That dungeon gives good exp for it's level too so why so many skip them is beyond me to be honest. It is certainly good to just ask though as I feel that most tanks believe everyone wants to skip mobs to the boss fights but my little experiment so far is showing it to be completely the opposite.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

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{Hello!}

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On topic: I was levelling my monk from around 20+ all the way to 60, just ate food and proceed with dungeon runs/levelling roulette etc. Speed runs everywhere, it was so fast that I decided to go for another dungeon run after. Never really had an issue with people skipping/not doing full clears even if they do or do not need them, I'd just go with the flow.

However, as I was levelling lately, I did get matched with tanks that tend to not use their range enmity weaponskill to pull and just run into mobs and flash/unleash/overpower, sometimes they do it slow enough that the healer/ranged dps hits/dots/heals and the trash starts running towards them as the tank continues to tunnel vision and only use enmity combo on a single trash.

PS: The tank was sync and geared (lvl 54 gears from HW) and we were doing a ARR dungeon

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Originally Posted by Evumeimei

That being said, I believe that majority vote should rule on whether or not to speedrun something. For example, yesterday I did the main story roulette. One person was new and said they planned to watch all cutscenes. No one complained but continued on through the instance. That new player started complaining, asking the party to run the instance "as intended" and calling everyone jerks for not doing so.

That instance is, what, two years old now? It sucks that they came into the game late, but it's old content and everyone let them watch the cutscenes anyway. But, to them, majority vote did not seem to matter.

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Doesn't matter how long ago it was released - it is not old content for new players.
Majority should not decide the pace - this is not a democracy. The proper pace of a dungeon run is that of the slowest player of the team - as long as it is not ridiculously slow.
(Everybody can handle slow runs. Not everybody can handle fast ones.)