Stop telling Tanks not to use provoke there is a place to use it when pulling mobs.

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

Haha yeah this, enmity war. From labyrinth of the ancient, up to world of darkness, good times.

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Yeah they were terrible. Had a few T13 runs back in the day where I was OT and the PLD decided to pull with provoke...it never works out. Every time ended in stop pulling with provoke or we get a new tank haha.

I've used it many times when I'm mass pulling and I can cut some time off a pull to abuse it's longer range. It has its place in pulling although only near the end of a pull or stopping early and using it to pull the last group to you. OP isn't really wrong, but I don't know that it's much of an issue.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

And this is wrong. Provoke is not a buff, and therefore has no influence on any enmity other than the mob you're targetting

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^ This. Provoke doesn't generate any bit of enmity except the 1 it adds to the targetted mob. Only buffs generate the base enmity. Provoke doesn't grant any buff, doesn't deal any damage, it doesn't do anything except giving you the top enmity +1. It reminds me people saying that the lifesteal from Bloodbath generates enmity like healing spells. That's another completely false statement. Lifesteal doesn't generate enmity at all.

Okay, as a main PLD and having all the other tanks to 60 I will say that Provoke does have its usage for a pulling skill. Specifically (and this is completely focused on initial pull rather than an in-combat pull since this is really the crux of the issue), Provoke is useful to pull mobs from a distance when you are trying to avoid aggroing mobs around said mob that aren't actually linked to the one you are pulling. The best examples of this is the Dragon Aevis in stone vigil circling the other mobs in the room right after the first boss and the one pathing at the top of the stairs. These are good pulls to do with Provoke since they are longer pulls with less mobs to worry about.

In the most typical pulls, however, you should be using Shield Lob/Tomahawk/Unmend since it does 3 things at once: starts the fight, damages the enemy -and- sets your initial aggro on that enemy at a much higher point than Provoke does. Plus you are also not burning the Provoke cooldown in the case you might need it to regain control of a mob should it get away from you. It isn't that Provoke shouldn't be used on pulls, but you should know as a tank when it is appropriate to use Provoke and when it is better to pull with the dedicated skills, which is much more often.

I don't use Provoke for pulling. I use it whenever I lose aggro and often times that's to a healer.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

^ This. Provoke doesn't generate any bit of enmity except the 1 it adds to the targetted mob.

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Well that is generated enmity.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

I don't use Provoke for pulling. I use it whenever I lose aggro and often times that's to a healer.

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If you lose to a healer you need to flash more as a PLD.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Well that is generated enmity.

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Yeah, okay. You didn't understand what I was replying to.

For everyone concerned about using Provoke while a Regen is ticking or other members using abilities, it's a non-issue. You typically pull mobs in at least 2-3 per pack. If you are pulling at range and you have a regen ticking on you, pulling with shield lob/tomahawk/umend will be no different than using provoke. You're still going to have to follow up with an aoe threat ability. In those scenarios even using your ranged skill, there will still be two other mobs that would run to the healer. It's not like you pull with provoke and call it a day. You follow up and intercept the mobs on their path to the party with aoe threat.

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Originally Posted by Rocond

For everyone concerned about using Provoke while a Regen is ticking or other members using abilities, it's a non-issue. You typically pull mobs in at least 2-3 per pack. If you are pulling at range and you have a regen ticking on you, pulling with shield lob/tomahawk/umend will be no different than using provoke. You're still going to have to follow up with an aoe threat ability. In those scenarios even using your ranged skill, there will still be two other mobs that would run to the healer. It's not like you pull with provoke and call it a day. You follow up and intercept the mobs on their path to the party with aoe threat.

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You should check, as the tank, if there is a regen in play. If you have one, you can dispel it, if it's on someone else then wait until it wears off of make sure you can get to the mobs first.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

You should check, as the tank, if there is a regen in play. If you have one, you can dispel it, if it's on someone else then wait until it wears off of make sure you can get to the mobs first.

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That is certainly an option for those timid tanks out there, however I personally don't bother. It's easy enough to pick everything up and I figure I might as well just let the regen tick since I will be taking damage right away anyway

Knowing when to use provoke as a tank in certain situations is how you get the best use of it whether it be speed pulling, pulling more mobs that are farther away from your long range attacks etc. Timid tanks will save it for when the DPS pull threat but at 60 you shouldn't need provoke in dungeons unless the DPS vastly out gear you and you are under geared as a tank. A 209 black mage and a 206 summoner against a tank who's ilvl 189 for example using a ilvl 170-180 weapon who's not used to tanking will use it compared to a geared tank who does it as their main.

provoke has longer range than shield lob so in certain situations you cna provoke to pull when you couldnt reach the mobs another way

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Originally Posted by Rocond

That is certainly an option for those timid tanks out there, however I personally don't bother. It's easy enough to pick everything up and I figure I might as well just let the regen tick since I will be taking damage right away anyway

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Well, once more it depends on the pull I should think. Typically I check it against the number of mobs I'm pulling, since the AoE emnity generation skills have both a range and target limit. On most pulls, not a problem, but it can still be a case-by-case basis. This is especially true it you're a lower-level, less geared tank running a dungeon with a fully kitted out 60 healer since their Regens can tick some damned strong emnity generation if it's on all the party and even more so with a Medica II. I'm not saying one shouldn't do it, I'm just saying one should be aware of when they can get away with it and when they can't.

I use provoke "occasionally" to long-pull a mob that's out of range from everything else. Keeps everything from being dragged all over the place. Usually its to pull the two Tonberrys to the top of the stairs in, the roaming mamo-ja in hard, Halatali to pull the roaming snake or the group at the bottom of the ramp/overpass on to it. Roaming dragons out of some rooms in stone vigil, etc. Normally if there is no sight agro and they are near enough. I'll use it when we are down to 1 mob left in the current group, and such. Just like chain farming in FFXI where someone would range pull and drag the mob back just before the current mob dies. For the most it also gives some time to recover CD's over a distance for those who need it and is a bit easier than trying to tank/cure 6 or 8 mobs that are not trash at once. Either way its not hard to grab full hate on them when they get to you or are on the way. Flash, overpower, unleash or toss a range like lob, tomahawk, unmend if there's distance.

The only way it can go wrong is if everyone is on a different mob than you, to many aoe spams, the tank forgets to keep track of their Mp/Tp or healers Mp, or just doesn't know what they are doing. If they do know and there's a Bard or Mch (sometimes nin) who knows how to fish mobs like its FFXI. Then provoke almost wont matter as long as they can grab and hold hate off a group of 3 or 4. But I will say its a little easier to pull group agro with War and Dark. Paladin takes a little more skill and party cooperation.

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Originally Posted by Malzian

Well, once more it depends on the pull I should think. Typically I check it against the number of mobs I'm pulling, since the AoE emnity generation skills have both a range and target limit. On most pulls, not a problem, but it can still be a case-by-case basis. This is especially true it you're a lower-level, less geared tank running a dungeon with a fully kitted out 60 healer since their Regens can tick some damned strong emnity generation if it's on all the party and even more so with a Medica II. I'm not saying one shouldn't do it, I'm just saying one should be aware of when they can get away with it and when they can't.

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I mean, I agree. I have no problem with tanks that aren't comfortable using it in any of these case by case situations. I'm not really making a case that they should be. Just because i'm completely comfortable pulling even with a full Medica II ticking, I don't expect everyone to have that level of comfortability in loldungeon content. However, going back to the point of the thread, the problem I do have is people just throwing out the blanket statement that you should never pull with provoke. That is still wrong to me regardless of how many scenarios someone tries to come up with of how it's a bad idea.

I like the range of provoke a lot.

I've never had to explain Provoke to anyone, but it's better to just tell them how the skill itself works. If they don't understand that +1 point of enmity over the top aggro generator isn't worth using when pulling a boss that nobody else has attacked then that's on them.

You're a tank. If you need an extra 10 yalms because you fear the mobs punching you in the face, then you're playing the wrong class.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

You're a tank. If you need an extra 10 yalms because you fear the mobs punching you in the face, then you're playing the wrong class.

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wait... what?

Using provoke has nothing to do with getting or not getting hit, it's about positioning and giving your DPS a faster start on their DPS. Maybe even allowing then to keep up a timed buff or a set of stacks.

I'm baffled by your comment.

Yea, you're giving up your +1 enmity generator (regardless of how much more enmity the other target pulled on the enemy) with a good long range to start a pull, that almost no enemy is too far away for you to pull safely with shield lob/tomahawk. A stray enemy will not necessarily be regained by a shield lob. A provoke + shield lob, will no doubt get you enmity back so you don't have to move your position and drag an entire mob with you to do so.

I'm referring to the OP saying that people shouldn't pull initial mobs with provoke. The only reason to do so is because you're too scared to move a bit closer to shield lob (i'm a paladin, so i'm just using my ranged attack as example). It's not like you can't move after your shield lob. Just grab and pull backwards if you really need to position, it's not that hard. Shield lob is on your GcD, Provoke is not. If you can't wait the 2.5 seconds it takes for a GcD for the start of a pull, then you did something wrong along the way (and I honestly wouldn't know what in the world could even prevent you from using your ranged attack on an initial pull).

All other situations can be done case by case. But I see zero reason to START a pull with provoke. Grabbing another mob that's farther away while continuing to hold a current mob is an ok scenario. That is NOT an initial pull though. That is a continued pull.
And even with that being the case, it's really not THAT hard to simply move a few feet in said direction (and drag the dang mob with you) and use shield lob. If DPS have an AoE and it won't reach, then sure. Use provoke. But not to start a pull when there's absolutely nothing on you to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

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Nobody was saying pull a boss or single mobs with provoke, that would be pretty silly lol. Using it as a tool to position mobs during a large pull, is another use for the ability that normally goes vastly unused in a 4 man scenario. Enmity isnt that hard to hold down at this point in the game and saying that it's only purpose is to take hate back seems a little unimaginative.

This is the point that the OP was trying to get across. Not that it should be used as a pulling device, but that it shouldn't be ignored as a tool to use in mass pulling.

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Originally Posted by Zazriel

This has been discussed before. You should not use provoke has your only pulling skill, you should not use it when regeneration skills active or you have an inexperienced group. But it has nice range costs no tp and can be useful for speed runs and grouping mobs together from a distance.


This reminds me of when the game was launched and people where telling WHMS not to use medica 2, regen, or cure 3 because of emnity and now we have a bunch of healers that don't explore all of WHM abilities. Divine seal swift cast medica 2, regen, presence of mind cleric stance, holy holy holy..... click off cleric stance pop shroud of saints= GOD MODE HEALING in df. You can add or subtract shroud at the start of that rotation or end just mp management.

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You are an idiot if you are using provoke for anything other then pulling back a mob you lost agro on or taunting off another tank.

Will it kill you? No. Do you look stupid for using it? Yes. There are other abilities which generate Threat while also pulling the mob. Your logic is flawed and this post is a troll thread.

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Originally Posted by Fersaken

You are an idiot if you are using provoke for anything other then pulling back a mob you lost agro on or taunting off another tank.

Will it kill you? No. Do you look stupid for using it? Yes. There are other abilities which generate Threat while also pulling the mob. Your logic is flawed and this post is a troll thread.

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I disagree, but its pretty obvious that you don't like to use a button more than once a dungeon. That's fine i suppose. If you cant figure out how to stop with a large pull, allow the DPS to start rotations to build DPS and grab the last group with a long rang oGCD and group aoe them on arrival then I suppose there are bigger problems. I do this constantly and it shaves time off dungeon runs and has never, i repeat never, resulted in a death of a DPS or a healer.

If you don't want to use it as such then that is fine. Don't call a person who is trying to make a point, and a valid one at that, and idiot simply because you don't agree. Kindly present a coherent point instead and you might even get into a intellectual argument as to why you think the way you do.

Yes, you could pull mobs this way. You could also just not stop and pull a mob until the last mob you want. Sure, dmg mitigation is easier when you have less to worry about before pulling the next mob on you instead of having 10 full hp enemies hitting you at the same time or having 7 hit you for the 1st 30 seconds, then pull the other 3 to you a bit later. But provoke can only grab 1 mob at best. Usually, mobs are 3-4. So by no means is this ever really gonna result in a big mob pull unless you already pulled a lot then stopped on the edge of the next mob. Then yes, it will save you a bit of time. It's not wrong. It's just also not needed. Either way, you're going to have to recoup after the big pull for caster's MP and everyone else's TP.

If this is your tactic for doing 2 mob pulls (1 initial and 1 pull in) then I honestly don't see it saving you that much time. Shadowflare might take a bit to put down if a SMN doesn't use their swiftcast for it, but otherwise, they can put down another AoE if they really need to (and for a small mob, you could easily just burn through them anyways).

Once again, sure it could save some time. But if you're counting the seconds in a dungeon, I think you're going to have a bit of a rough time regardless. Honestly, my fastest run through in a dungeon was by doing single mob pulls and just blazing though them quickly 1 by 1. We required absolutely no stops for anyone to build up TP or MP at any point.

Using provoke in this manner won't kill you. But nor will using hallowed ground on a trash mob of 5 enemies. Sure. It helped. It wasn't necessary though. And now you don't have it if someone made a mistake later. Now apply it to provoke. You use it to pull mob into an earlier pull. You lose track of one of the enemies and it goes running off to hit your healer and you didn't notice until he got too far away from your shield lob and healer is running away from you instead of towards you. Now, don't you feel silly you don't have your provoke and have to move an entire mob out of your DPS's AoE to grab that one enemy because your DPS don't focus on burning the rampant one as 1st priority.

You can say "a competent tank won't lose aggro in the first place" all you want. But mistakes happen to everyone. Sometimes, I pull 15 enemies and they are all freaking huge on my screen blocking my view from being able to easily see what's happening. I'm going through my rotation on them to hold enmity, but WHOOPS! 1 happened to get pulled by someone else and because of the 14 other huge monsters infront of my screen, I didn't see it right away. It happens. I'd rather my tank (or me) be prepared with a provoke for THOSE situations instead of going, "lol I used provoke to pull that other mob, let me build up enmity while you get pommeled to the face".

When I tank, I save provoke when I'm pulling multiple mobs and I can't reach the farther ones, or when I lose aggro due to me slacking off a bit too much. Using it to pull EVERYTHING means less emergency usage when something unexpected happens.

You want to tell new tanks what to do? Tell them Provoke only puts you at the top of the aggro list, does not generate aggro itself. So if aggro is 0, then you're now topped at 0, so provoke is not a good pull. A true pull utilizing provoke goes Toma/Lob>Provoke>Toma/Lob; with that no HOTS or DOTS will take said mob. Trash pulls with provoke are moot also; a speed run pull all mobs to the boss situation should have the tank just running through the pack Flash/OP, not range pulling.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

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That's all well and good, and I even agree with most of your post. However, dismissal of provoke as a pull option just because it isn't common practice does not make it invalid, or even in some cases a superior option. It's great for gathering adds additionally when they spawn so you don't have to move a boss, or a large mob. This would allow melee DPS to keep their positionals easier.

As I said before if you don't wan't to use it as such then that is fine, it won't hinder in anyway. I just think that an quick oGCD yank of a mob in your direction to either allow DPS to get going faster, or to take a corner faster isn't necessarily a bad thing. It all comes down to play style, if your an aggressive tank, then provoke is in most cases a somewhat repetitive ability. It also has a very short cooldown. If your comfortable then using it outside the box is completely acceptable. If not then it's still a incredibly useful "oh crap" tool.

I just hate when people come in and mindlessly dismiss an idea without thinking about it. A hammer can push nails into wood, but it can also remove them.

Additionally, my fastest runs through dungeons were never 1 to 1 pulls. If that's your experience then that's great, but I would be willing to put money forward that this isn't the case most of the time. Every DPS in the game at this point will output greater damage in a 4+ mob situation by leaps and bounds.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I don't think Provoke generates any enmity, period. All it does is put you to the top of the aggro list. If I voke pull something and the healer casts Stone Skin on me before I get to follow up with a Shield Lob, the mob instantly aggros on the healer.

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Originally Posted by Pells

..Provoke does less than the standard action enmity (besides moving the tank to the top of the enmity list). A Provoke followed by a scholar using Eye for Eye or Aetherflow, for example, will result in the mobs targeting the scholar.

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First and foremost, understand what the skill does exactly. One must follow up a provoke with another skill.

I’ve never provoke pulled a dungeon mob, I rarely use it at all in dungeons in fact. I do however use the hell out of it in A2S. In my static, I am the tank that is in charge of gathering the mobs up. I have found that the use of provoke as an off GCD (ranged attack <target A>, provoke <target b>, ranged attack <target b>) is really useful when I need to generate hate, but I am still at range because I had to go pick up the spider tank and get it to move first.

Touching on the OP’s initial statement, if you are the person giving advice, you MUST consider the player you are giving advice too. There are basic, intermediate and advanced strategies to tanking, and if the player is still at the basic tanking stage, advanced strategies can do them more harm than good. I wouldn’t tell a leaf to pull with provoke. I would encourage the more stable path to aggro – throw + aoe. You must learn to crawl before you can walk.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

A true pull utilizing provoke goes Toma/Lob>Provoke>Toma/Lob; with that no HOTS or DOTS will take said mob.

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Why would you use provoke then since you would be top of the enmity list, having just pulled with a shield lob/tomahawk That's beyond stupid.

The only advice I can give that would be reliably give with equal relevance to all player levels is usually "read its tooltip, and think for a second". Provoke is oGCD, unlike your throw. It has more range than your throw. It brings you to max threat, useful to saving people, unlike throw. It has a 40 second CD, unlike throw. I can only hope thereafter that they might consider any of the following:
- Is it likely be more useful within the next 40 seconds?
- How much is it worth to me right now to facilitate this pull by attracting (almost zero) threat on this mob?
- Could I easily do the (nearly) same without provoke?

Heck, face-pulling has more use than many would seem to think, especially when low on TP or MP and paired with minor oGCDs (the use of which should still cause helpful enough mitigation during the pull to make up for not all attacks hitting you at once, or less mitigation than post-pull). Run past, oGCD if you get a hasty Regen to keep threat until the first tick, and Overpower/Flash as soon as they're all in the cone/circle (almost always ready before that first tick). If it misses one, voke as soon as that tick is going off while adjusting to hit all. 120 TP / Flash mp saved. It's just that if you wouldn't need your GCD ready within the next 2.5 seconds or so (or wouldn't be able to hit the whole mob group within that time) and you're not strapped for TP/MP, why not lead with a throw so your SMN/SCH can start stacking up their DoTs, or your melee can start comboing/winding up on it while moving with you to the mob gather point?

People seem to forget that when it comes to long range pulling WAR can easily use a provoke + equilibrium for a really strong pull, this can even be used in raids. When overhealing equilibrium aggro works the same as overhealing with any other spell, same with second wind. This causes it to generate 1200 worth of potency, might or might not be affected by defiance. If you don't trust me provoke a dummy and then use equilibrium and then ask someone else to hit it and see how long it takes until it loses aggro.

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Originally Posted by Krindor

provoke + equilibrium for a really strong pull

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Am I missing something here?

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Am I missing something here?

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Equilibrium generates a huge chunk of enmity due to the healing. It's not a life-steal so it works.

Though you have to make sure that you won't need it in the next minute.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Equilibrium generates a huge chunk of enmity due to the healing. It's not a life-steal so it works.

Though you have to make sure that you won't need it in the next minute.

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Ok, so why would he use provoke first, that's why I'm confused. Equilibrium only would generate one less enmity.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Ok, so why would he use provoke first, that's why I'm confused. Equilibrium only would generate one less enmity.

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When you provoke, you get the whole pack at a bigger distance than what a tomahawk/lob/whatever would. Then equilibrium gets the enmity. The aim is to provide a ranged alternative to facepull/flash. I use it often when I want to avoid too much moving for my dps

edit : not that it's a great idea or anything. It's just a comfortable ranged pull for dungeon packs

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Am I missing something here?

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I wont get into it, but no you're not and you're right in your thinking.