Deliverance rant

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

If sch dps: wait till you see bane going off and verify Cleric stance is off, then you can start with deliverance.

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Actually if the healer is DPSing you can go Deliverance as soon as your HP bar hits 75% because your healer isn't healing you so Defiance is basically doing nothing here and will not make the healer switch back to healing later or whatever.

Edit : Just wanted to add that Defiance is better when used while the healer is healing you, it's not the other way around. Defiance is useless if you're not receiving any heal and you don't need the extra HP/don't have them anymore. It's completely different than Shield Oath/Grit, these ones actually reduce the incoming damage, so keeping it up while the healer is DPSing will actually help him staying in Cleric Stance longer.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

Actually if the healer is DPSing you can go Deliverance as soon as your HP bar hits 75% because your healer isn't healing you so Defiance is basically doing nothing here and will not make the healer switch back to healing later or whatever.

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Well, I was thinking about a situation like for example 1st pull in fractal continuum where you're taking quite some dmg and thought you'd let the sch heal you up close to 80% of your hp from that 30-50% you dropped to.

But that's something you could consider with whm healing when they're casting aero III followed by holy and you get hit down somewhat around that 75% mark before stun takes effect (depends on the HoT ticks) gotta admit I hadn't thought of that.

A good WAR in Deliverance with CDs running barely needs any healer assistance for big trash pulls during the IRBerserk + Bloodbath window anyway.

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

And what do you achieve with that? If you're not gonna dps and the warrior knows how to manage it why'd you go and fuck it up intentionnaly

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I fuck it up on purpose only if the warrior refuse to switch in défiance when he need to.
I will always start healing, but toy with me, force me to blow up all my CD in one pack and you're gonna end up on the ground.

A good war start in défiance and switch when he has enough aggro.

I won't compensate mistake nor lazyness for defense cooldown

Sorry a brother warrior left that impression upon you. As many stated, that's a bad tank. I run defiance in the beginning of every trash pull, and if healer gear is lacking, I stick to it to make their lives easier. In all honesty, I've tanked entire roulette dungeons in deliverance and been told by healers they've never been able to DPS so much due to the ease of keeping me alive. If my healer can't DPS, im failing my duty. A good tank will tank above DPS every time.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

As a healer main... I encourage you to start pulling in defiance and decide whether to use defiance or deliverance depending on whether or not your healer is doing dps.

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Alright, it sounds like you don't understand how warriors tank stance works. They work completely different than drk and pld and their tank stance doesn't mitigate doodly squat.

Warriors gain tanking advantages based on their offensive power. Their "dps" stance actually offers tanking/mitigating/self healing advantages when used at the appropriate time. this is one of the often overlooked but very distinct advantages they have over drk and pld atm.

Their tank stance otoh is only ever helpful if you are being actively healed. If we aren't receiving healing all it does is reduce our damage, which would otherwise be helping us heal ourselves *anyway*.

So, effectively, you are saying that if I see my healer pushing dps, I should inflict -20% damage on myself, so I can heal myself less, so that they can heal me more when they stop dpsing anyway. this doesn't make sense.

I always pull in defiance, but as soon as aggro is established and/or bloodbath and berserk are on cooldown, I'm going into deliverance regardless of how good or bad the healer is. There's simply no reason not to.

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Originally Posted by Eisengrim

Why do you as Whitemage stance dance with Cleric's Stance? Surely it'd be better if you just kept it off so your healing potency is always at max. On bosses, sure, but on trash?

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Not sure if troll or just bad. WHM Holy spam can out dps even a good war anyday. Not to mention the added stuns = nothing hitting the tank = inderect dps increase since you dont have to heal.

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Originally Posted by Flipside101

Not sure if troll or just bad. WHM Holy spam can out dps even a good war anyday. Not to mention the added stuns = nothing hitting the tank = inderect dps increase since you dont have to heal.

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Eis was just being sarcastic. xD

While Holy is great, I think Deliverance Overpower spam might win that fight, especially since Holy degrades in damage as more mobs are hit, while Overpower keeps hitting.. ;-; But a Holy stun is VERY nice. Lets a WHM use a few extra skills while dpsing. @.@

I don't really feel like Deliverance does much to hurt a Warrior, aside from when an SCH is healing. WHM/AST can throw on a regren while defiance is still up. Eos and Selene will heal less on the Warrior, but a half decent War will pop Defiance back on if he feels that heals aren't keeping up.

Maybe it's me..but I find WARs easier to heal, and just a tad bit difficult when in deliverance. Maybe I'm just lucky and been getting the good ones.

I did get a war that used Deliverance for the entire run. All I could do was laugh at the situation really.

Sounds like OP got a bad tank. Could of been one of those players that just aren't very good at the game in general. They probably can't handle all the extra stuff involved in stance dancing. Most of us good war's have been stance dancing sense 2.0. So Deliverance didn't really change anything for us. Except more deeps. As far as the comments on very few good warriors out there, this applies to every single job sense 3.0. They changed how each job functioned, and actually added a new level of complexity. Before 3.0 you were still lucky to find people that knew their job well enough to optimize and do the best possible. But now, lol, its much harder to find anyone that knows their job and can perform it at the max. That new level of complexity is well received for those of us that can keep up with it, it makes it more fun and engaging. But most of the player base that can't, or would rather not max because of how much concentration it takes, or simply doesn't have the capability/skill, doesn't like it. And those of us that can, that runs into those that can't get more irritated with these types as a result. The gap between the players that can max the job potential and players that can't or wont is much larger now. It's really a double edged sword.

Off tank Warriors that sit in deliverance before pull, with a SCH in party, bug me. Dx I mean c'mon. If this fight has any aoe in the beginning spreading Adlo is very helpful. xD The ones that pop Conva and are in Defiance have my eternal love. <3 :3

Oh god please don't lump this Bad in with the rest of us. Any warrior worth his axe knows when to use Deliverance and when to use Defiance. And it's possible to tank a whole dungeon in Deliverance IF you're geared well (as good or better than your dps) and you're with a healer you know and trust or you ask first and try a small pull.

That guy was Bad and not representative of real Warriors. I had a bad DRK this morning when I was running SCH. Doesn't meant they're all bads.

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Originally Posted by Rawrz

Off tank Warriors that sit in deliverance before pull, with a SCH in party, bug me. Dx I mean c'mon. If this fight has any aoe in the beginning spreading Adlo is very helpful. xD The ones that pop Conva and are in Defiance have my eternal love. <3 :3

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Very rarely will SCHs actually bother, unfortunately, and it sucks to pop Conva and have it do nothing. ):

I hear you. WAR has become what I thought DRK was going to be. A bunch of dps running around thinking dps is all there is to tanking. Whats dodging or defensive CD again?

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

I hear you. WAR has become what I thought DRK was going to be. A bunch of dps running around thinking dps is all there is to tanking. Whats dodging or defensive CD again?

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Seriously - this isn't a WAR thing. It's a bad tank thing. Any tank that runs the wrong stance, fails to hold threat, and doesn't use cooldowns is just bad.

And honestly? The fact that WAR can out dps a lot of actual dps players if that WAR is playing their job right means a lot of dps players are just bad.

Yeah this is just a bad tanking thing, I have many people in my FC who say DRK and WAR tanks are squishy and I just have to keep saying that those are just bad tanks. Sorry that there are so many people having issues with this but let's not keep this misconception going. I teach people how to tank all the time, so hopefully someone will do the same for those learning tanking. Anyways sorry OP hope it gets better and if they are on Ultos point them my way. :)

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Originally Posted by bounddreamer

Seriously - this isn't a WAR thing. It's a bad tank thing. Any tank that runs the wrong stance, fails to hold threat, and doesn't use cooldowns is just bad.

And honestly? The fact that WAR can out dps a lot of actual dps players if that WAR is playing their job right means a lot of dps players are just bad.

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Tbh, its far more prevalent with WARs, so yes it is a WAR thing. I would say that probably 4/5 WARs I run into are just dps who like a big axe.

Also, if you wanted to do the whole "its a bad tank thing", you may as well have gone with a "It's a bad player thing"

And honestly, any tank or healer role can out dps a large portion of the current dps players. Sadly, even PLD.

I run heals and dps as well as tanking, and I'd have to disagree. I was seeing far more DRKs running without Grit than WAR running Deliverance only. And I do a ton of dungeon running and hunting. It's leveled off and most people still playing seem to be playing their tank jobs properly if they've stuck with it. But I'm still getting more bad DRK players in roulette than bad WARs.

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Tbh, its far more prevalent with WARs, so yes it is a WAR thing.

Also, if you wanted to do the whole "its a bad tank thing", you may as well have gone with a "It's a bad player thing"
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Being a bad tank does not equate to a bad player, please don't make that assumption. I know many people who are great at another role(caster, healer, etc) and not good at tanking and vice versa. There are many people trying out tanks now that just aren't familiar with how the class plays. Help those that are learning if they ask and be patient. If it doesn't workout you can make a choice, just have fun.

When i war in dungeons i only go into deliverance for triple-cleave, which you actually pop a fair few defensive cds for. After the double or triple cleave is done i'm back in defiance. Havent had a problem yet. I start and end each pull in defiance 99% of the time.

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Originally Posted by MeridaQ

Being a bad tank does not equate to a bad player, please don't make that assumption. I know many people who are great at another role(caster, healer, etc) and not good at tanking and vice versa. There are many people trying out tanks now that just aren't familiar with how the class plays. Help those that are learning if they ask and be patient. If it doesn't workout you can make a choice, just have fun.

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......Woosh

Honestly, this is what happens when game developers pander to gamers who think tactics are breath mints. You get tanks who don't know the fundamentals of the role (or ignore them completely when told of them) and think they're something they're not. I appreciate doing decent damage to maintain an enemy's attention but I know that my primary duty as a tank is to keep enemies looking at me. In the case of Warrior, that means using Defiance first and foremost and using Deliverance when I know no one else has a chance of stealing hate from me.

Edit: As an aside, anyone who says more than 10% (at the most) of DPS players can't out-damage a tank really needs to have a seat. Or meet some actual DPS'ers rather than inventing scarecrows for such absurd arguments.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

When i war in dungeons i only go into deliverance for triple-cleave, which you actually pop a fair few defensive cds for. After the double or triple cleave is done i'm back in defiance. Havent had a problem yet. I start and end each pull in defiance 99% of the time.

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Only time you should be using Fell Cleave is on a single mob, if there are two or more up Decimate always wins. The only time Defiance is needed is if you've got a dumb healer or you're not up to par with your gear and can't handle the incoming damage. Not throwing you under the bus or saying you're bad, but if you're familiar with WAR then you're just gimping yourself by sitting in Defiance so much. It literally does nothing meaningful for us defensively aside from giving access to Inner Beast and a small HP bonus (which is meaningless once you're starting to take damage).

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Honestly, this is what happens when game developers pander to gamers who think tactics are breath mints. You get tanks who don't know the fundamentals of the role (or ignore them completely when told of them) and think they're something they're not. I appreciate doing decent damage to maintain an enemy's attention but I know that my primary duty as a tank is to keep enemies looking at me. In the case of Warrior, that means using Defiance first and foremost and using Deliverance when I know no one else has a chance of stealing hate from me.

Edit: As an aside, anyone who says more than 10% (at the most) of DPS players can't out-damage a tank really needs to have a seat. Or meet some actual DPS'ers rather than inventing scarecrows for such absurd arguments.

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The vast majority of the DPS you run into in a DF Expert aren't going to pull more DPS than a WAR who understands the job and gears appropriately. Maybe it's just my data center...I don't know. As for your Defiance comment...see above.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

TBH I much preferred the time when aggressive tanking was not required and was kind of a niche. I loved when back in 2.5x while waiting for the expac, I joined T10-11 farm parties in PF and people running parsers were amazed at me sustaining over 420-450 DPS while tanking T11 out of Defiance and no healer complaints, while most tanks were struggling to do more than 240 DPS. That's how niche it was. Now, a tank doing high DPS in raid content is, on top of being a common thing, actually required. And then baddies trying to mimic the good raiding tanks are being destroyed by trash mobs. Sad.

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I think I rather have high dps tanking to have remained a niche thing for the game. I wore full slaying or a mix of slaying/fending accessories back in 2.x, because I loved the idea of being a tank, and being able to dps more after I have gotten a firm understanding of a encounter. It was like a bonus for being a good player. But now it's just mandatory in Savage, and it personally kills some of the vibe/feeling I used to have for it, but that it just me.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Edit: As an aside, anyone who says more than 10% (at the most) of DPS players can't out-damage a tank really needs to have a seat. Or meet some actual DPS'ers rather than inventing scarecrows for such absurd arguments.

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I out dps most dps during boss fights...as a PLD in DF. Maybe not in trash pulls since PLD just sucks at aoe, but idc I just turtle up, heal myself with Clemancy, and let the healers that do dps have a ball while rarely needing to heal me. A lot of dps in DF don't play thier class correctly basically.

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Originally Posted by Isius

I think I rather have high dps tanking to have remained a niche thing for the game. I wore full slaying or a mix of slaying/fending accessories back in 2.x, because I loved the idea of being a tank, and being able to dps more after I have gotten a firm understanding of a encounter. It was like a bonus for being a good player. But now it's just mandatory in Savage, and it personally kills some of the vibe/feeling I used to have for it, but that it just me.

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People seem to be missing the point of Savage. It is a hardcore raid that is designed to be played to each class/roles limits.

For tanks this means eaking out the most DPS while maintaining hate and buffs/debuffs. To be able to comfortably sit in tank stance and solely focus on mechanics would not be, well, Savage persay.

In a way high tank DPS is still niche in the fact that you will only see Savage raiders (which is actually a surprisingly small amount of players) doing it well.

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

People seem to be missing the point of Savage. It is a hardcore raid that is designed to be played to each class/roles limits.

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Not so much missing the point as missing the memo: it wasn't communicated well to the NA playerbase that the difficulty level of Coil was going the wayside and that Alexander (Savage) was tuned more like SCOB (Savage) was. Savage is indeed "hardcore," but the NA playerbase was led to believe (outside of perhaps one interview, which was in Japanese, that got posted on Reddit) that Savage was going to be roughly equivalent to the raids in ARR in terms of difficulty, and healer DPS/heavy tank DPS were never required in ARR to the extent that they are in Savage.

Considering that Savage fills the same spot in progression that Coil used to (providing i210 gear and upgrade items for locked tomestone gear), it's not surprising that players see Savage as fairly different from Coil.

Defiance =/= Grit or Shield Oath

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

The vast majority of the DPS you run into in a DF Expert aren't going to pull more DPS than a WAR who understands the job and gears appropriately. Maybe it's just my data center...I don't know. As for your Defiance comment...see above.

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The vast majority of average players aren't going to outperform the minority of really good players.

Who knew.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The vast majority of average players aren't going to outperform the minority of really good players.

Who knew.

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Actually, it was Average DPS players vs Tank DPS, so its a little different than what you wrote. Well, more than a little. And it was understands their jobs and gears appropriately, not really good minority. So a little different again.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

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Actually I should be using Triple Cleave, because I'm lvl 57. I also pull big so its actually necessary for me to not sit in Deliverance 24/7.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

The vast majority of average players aren't going to outperform the minority of really good players.

Who knew.

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Did you even read what I was responding to? lol What you said was exactly the point I was making...

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Actually I should be using Triple Cleave, because I'm lvl 57. GG.

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Because I totally know what your job levels are, right? We're having a discussion about WAR at 60...safe to assume since you felt the need to comment on playing your WAR that you were actually running "end game" stuff on it.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

Because I totally know what your job levels are, right? We're having a discussion about WAR at 60...safe to assume since you felt the need to comment on playing your WAR that you were actually running "end game" stuff on it.

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Well, the OP is about dungeons, not savage raiding (which I do participate in, WAR is not my main), so I was responding in that context. :P

So...instead of yelling at the WAR to keep aggro, you came here and complained?...

I stance dance plenty (though I open every pull with Defiance) and healers still dps just fine. When I am running Berserk + Bloodbath my self healing is really good, and the pack melts.

OK, I figured I'd share something that has made my life as a warrior a million times better, the double infuriate. Some of you already know, but its possible to get two infuriates per trash pull. Well before you pull, pop infuriate and wait for the timer count down to close to 0. Then use raw intuition or vengeance (or your stack combo if you have time, and CD should be situational) and use unchained. The goal is to be popping your CD and unchained at the beginning of your pull. Once unchained is off, switch to deliverance, you should now be ready to use ir, zerk, bb, as you've hopefully set yourself up with stacks. Then use triple zerk decimate (weave in fracture, but use it when you have 5 abandon stacks for extra crit), you have a huge hate lead and the mob is burnt as your pacified. I also do this for bosses, but I use fell cleave instead of decimate. Another happy tidbit, use thrill of battle in defiance. It heals 20% of total health, and in defiance is does more!

It's not really worth waiting 30s+ before you even pull trash. Also to do a triple Decimate, you would be spending every single other GCD doing single target, so you'll do less DPS overall.

It works for bosses for the triple Fell Cleave, but I wouldn't recommend it for dungeons unless you're walking into that boss with 5 stacks from the previous trash pull.

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Originally Posted by Aurius

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So you're taking nearly a full minute between trash pulls for CDs?

The biggest problem is new-to-60 tanks taking advice meant for fully geared tanks. If you are very outgeared by the dps, just focus on holding hate and forget about maxing out dps. If you are geared similarly to the dps, then you can try and squeeze out more damage.

sounds like you had a bad tank lol, you have my sympathy, especially as a person that mains war currently, and been playing it for a long while. but in all truth as well, you can kind of blame SE for it, because the only true advantage now of using defiance is the health boost, enmity boost, and self heals boost (yes, thats right, heals from a healer dont get the 20% boost anymore) so in some cases, deliverance is better. but if the tank isnt bright enough to know that he needs defiance to hold hate, he shouldnt be a tank.

next time you come across a war like that, you should kick them for "different play styles"