Please Remove or Repurpose Parry

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Originally Posted by Snowy_Mist

It'll also means if you have parry left side pieces you can end up losing that one penta or one vit accessory to stack one more str one.

If anything its just a suggestion to make parry pieces tanks get less hated.

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Aye it was not bad suggestion as it would indeed make parry better than it is atm, just wanted to point out that VIT is kinda "hated" stat too to some extent :>

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Originally Posted by Synestra

Aye it was not bad suggestion as it would indeed make parry better than it is atm, just wanted to point out that VIT is kinda "hated" stat too to some extent :>

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Agreed, it always reaches a point where we can wear all right side slaying and then we would go back to hating parry again for giving vitality no longer needed. Not trying to be pessimistic as I think people caring enough to make all these suggestions is great.

Lot of misinformation in this thread. As it is now, parry does in fact increase damage dealt, through Low Blow & Reprisal procs for Dark Knight. But they can't make it useful without reworking all three tanks.

The problem is you can only get roughly a 12% increase to parry rate through gear. Which equates to about 2.4% damage mitigation, and less for DRK DPS, so nobody cares about it. For parry to become relevant in it's current form gear would need to offer at least 4x as much(48% rate, 9.6% mitigation) or more. But then you run into the issue of an extremely powerful parry based MT in DRK & how you're going to buff PLD who has a naturally lower parry rate(even without shield), loses parry mitigation to block, & produces less enmity out of tank stance.

It's better they just leave parry where it is or remove it from gear/food.

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Originally Posted by Disc

Lot of misinformation in this thread. As it is now, parry does in fact increase damage dealt, through Low Blow & Reprisal procs for Dark Knight. But they can't make it useful without reworking all three tanks.

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Some napkin math shows that even with reprisal and low blows a 5% increase in parry rate will only get you 0.01% increase in damage.

The whole point of my post was that it's useless as a stat because of the rate which cannot be changed without causing an imbalance.

Anyone know if theres been discussions about parry in JP forums? as they will mostlikely get more attention than NA/EU forums.

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Originally Posted by Disc

Lot of misinformation in this thread. As it is now, parry does in fact increase damage dealt, through Low Blow & Reprisal procs for Dark Knight. But they can't make it useful without reworking all three tanks.

The problem is you can only get roughly a 12% increase to parry rate through gear. Which equates to about 2.4% damage mitigation, and less for DRK DPS, so nobody cares about it. For parry to become relevant in it's current form gear would need to offer at least 4x as much(48% rate, 9.6% mitigation) or more. But then you run into the issue of an extremely powerful parry based MT in DRK & how you're going to buff PLD who has a naturally lower parry rate(even without shield), loses parry mitigation to block, & produces less enmity out of tank stance.

It's better they just leave parry where it is or remove it from gear/food.

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If you multiply those numbers by the total damage you deal and take over the course of the fight, it totals some notable discrepancies.

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Originally Posted by Violette

Some napkin math shows that even with reprisal and low blows a 5% increase in parry rate will only get you 0.01% increase in damage.

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Common sense shows that 0.01x is a decrease not an increase.

If your parry rate ever makes the difference between 1 Reprisal and 2 Low Blows, and 2 Reprisals and 4 Low Blows, per minute, that's a 410 potency per minute gain. I wonder how much crit/det/ss you need to match that number?

In the DPS race I think a lot of people forget that in terms of DPS, STR is the only thing that matters significantly and ALL secondary stats offer extremely miniscule returns whether they are DPS or mitigation stats.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

If you multiply those numbers by the total damage you deal and take over the course of the fight, it totals some notable discrepancies.

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I would assume so. I'm not even sure why you would multiply your parry rate or damage mitigated by your damage dealt. Do explain.

http://i.imgur.com/CE7LHCy.jpg

Parry ladies and gentlemen.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Common sense shows that 0.01x is a decrease not an increase.

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Your horrid understanding of what increase means is against common sense. 0.01% increase implies a positive gain, so 1.01% total.


Also secondary stats do not provide "miniscule". 6 crit is roughly 1 point of str, so on body pieces where you can get 40-60+ crit, that's the equivalent of 7-10 bonus str.

Only way parry will be remotely useful is if they change it to do a counterattack that does descent enough damage perhaps auto damage while maintaining a decent and realistic proc rate not FF14 RNG flawed system. This would increase MT DPS, actually maybe and honestly mean maybe encourage people to use VIT accessories cause honestly they are a joke too. Right now there is absolutely no reason to stack VIT unless you're a shitty tank or have shitty healers and that's for real any tank buster can be survived with proper cool down usage and minimal HP.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

Nothing can save Parry as long as it remains a Defensive Stat. That's just the way this community is now.

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Yep, this. Look at vitality. Vitality does have value that is 100% reliable -- it makes you harder to kill. When your healers are distracted for a moment, or a cooldown was used at the wrong time, or you get clipped by something, having enough health to not die can prevent a wipe entirely. The common retort "well just play perfectly" doesn't hold much weight compared to actual gameplay where mistakes are made, and people die to hits they would have survived with another hundred health.

But tanks will not stack it.

Justified? Maybe. Raid DPS checks are very high right now. You need good tank DPS to reasonably clear them. Dying to enrage five minutes later is still dead. But I think there's also a persistent mentality that a tank only needs as much health as the hardest hit, and caution beyond that be damned, which doesn't strike me as very tanky.

VIT is only useful for keeping you from dying to big hits. Once you have enough to survive them any extra adds nothing to you. It is worse than parry at that point.

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Originally Posted by Disc

VIT is only useful for keeping you from dying to big hits. Once you have enough to survive them any extra adds nothing to you. It is worse than parry at that point.

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Did you read my post?

You imply that we do not stack VIT because we can just "play perfectly" to remove its use & you are displeased with our lack of "caution" & "tanky" equipment. The truth is that outside of the tank-busters we specifically build VIT for, it has no use. It does not mitigate damage, nor does it increase damage. It is the number one worst stat in the game if you put on more than you need. Parry is in a completely different place. Parries are incredibly strong. We would go out of our way to stack it if gear made a significant impact on the rate or strength. Being a defensive stat is not the flaw.

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Originally Posted by Disc

The truth is that outside of the tank-busters we specifically build VIT for, it has no use.

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Until you take more damage than the tank buster, which does happen because people aren't perfect. You aren't always at 100% health before a mechanic, sometimes people are late with cooldowns, you eat an auto-attack, you get clipped by aoe, the healer thought he could leverage one more attack before dropping clerics, the tank left tank stance off, and so on, and so on.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Until you take more damage than the tank buster, which does happen because people aren't perfect.

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No, it does not happen. Ever. Every raid encounter is linear with set values for damage taken. What you are talking about now is operator error. And the only fix, is gettin gud.

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Originally Posted by Disc

No, it does not happen. Ever. Every raid encounter is linear with set values for damage taken. What you are talking about now is operator error. And the only fix, is gettin gud.

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Gittin gud*

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Originally Posted by Disc

What you are talking about now is operator error. And the only fix, is gettin gud.

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Yes, thank you for correcting me that what I was talking about is what I was talking about. This has been very productive.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Yes, thank you for correcting me that what I was talking about is what I was talking about. This has been very productive.

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You act like it's constant unpredictable mayhem while implying that VIT would save you from the reckoning. I'm telling you that wearing an extra VIT ring is not going to save you when you forget to use Sentinel or your SCH miraculously forgets what Adloquium is. Your rant that tanks are against tanky gear is wrong, we just do not have any available to us.

Okay so hear me out here. This probably isn't the perfect approach to fixing parries but it could be a realistic answer. A parry is a defensive action where a swordsman take an opponent's blade with their guard to thwart an attack, leaving the opponent open for an attack called a "riposte". My conclusion from this is that parries could be reworked to represent this by having a parry nullify damage rather than mitigate damage and make the next auto-attack do either a straight damage increase or a critical hit.

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Originally Posted by Nyu_Maimhov

Okay so hear me out here. This probably isn't the perfect approach to fixing parries but it could be a realistic answer. A parry is a defensive action where a swordsman take an opponent's blade with their guard to thwart an attack, leaving the opponent open for an attack called a "riposte". My conclusion from this is that parries could be reworked to represent this by having a parry nullify damage rather than mitigate damage and make the next auto-attack do either a straight damage increase or a critical hit.

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Parry:

After a parry, your next attack is a critical hit.

FIXED

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Parry:

After a parry, your next attack is a critical hit.

FIXED

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Congratulations! You just made Raw Intuition broken! Now WAR does even MORE DPS!

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Originally Posted by Exodus_Kenpachi

Congratulations! You just made Raw Intuition broken! Now WAR does even MORE DPS!

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You can always just make RI, Defiance different.

Defiance:
-X% against autoattack damage.

Raw Intuitation:
-20% damage against autoattacks.

Done.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

You can always just make RI, Defiance different.

Defiance:
-X% against autoattack damage.

Raw Intuitation:
-20% damage against autoattacks.

Done.

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Potential nerfs aside, WAR does not need more damage, period. It just factually does not need it. Stop suggesting it.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Potential nerfs aside, WAR does not need more damage, period. It just factually does not need it. Stop suggesting it.

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This isn't about Warriors. This is about Parry.

And to make it true. You could add the following effects.

Sword Oath:
All Parry is converted to critical rate.

Shield Oath:
After landing a successful parry your next ability critical hits.

Grit:
After landing a successful parry your next ability critical hits.

Gosh, all people do is complain. Not even wanting to use their noggins.

This game needs more stats and bonus traits on the whole.

Personally - I'd toss Parry for PDT or MDT stat on tank gear.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

This game needs more stats and bonus traits on the whole.

Personally - I'd toss Parry for PDT or MDT stat on tank gear.

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Agreed. More stats would make it a bit more interesting to gear I think. Some bosses could benefit from stacking a magic resist stat, some from stacking a block/parry etc. This would have to be tuned so someone could have a mixed set of gear and still clear it, so as not to make tank gearing hellish, but the world first types could min-max to the extreme.

It would be good though if, for the time being, parry were just replaced by resistance which would reduce damage taken by 0.02% per point, with diminishing returns after about 650 stat 13%).

Said this somewhere before but the ability to counter associated with parry, a portion or all of the damage parried gets returned to source.

Make parry a required stat like in the all popular loved/hated WoW:
They have/had a stat called Defense rating that effectively nullifies critical hits recieved. Make mobs and bosses crit a lot, change parry so that the crit chance gets reduced a lot (not nullified though, thats what awareness cooldown is for). Voila: Parry is a needed stat.

Not the best solution and shamelessly stolen from blizzard but hey, it would definately be a defensive stat thats needed and not useless any more!

Or:

Make parry actually scale, and scale a lot in chance! Raise mob physical damage by roughly 15-20% overall so parry can actually counter that to a big extend. Once again parry would be a needed stat and act like a passive cooldown always active. Currently parry is useless because you dont feel any difference if you stack it or not..

I'm in agreement with making parry completely nullify damage from the hit. A parry by definition means you either stopped or deflected the blow, so continuing to take damage from it makes no sense. Doing this would require a change to raw intuition though, because it would basically make WAR have a hallowed ground for physical attacks. It's as simple as changing the parry effect to a reduced 20% physical damage taken for RI.

Parry also does need to scale better, it's like, what, 1% increase for every 100 parry rating? This is way too low. Double it at least. Maybe even triple it.

Tanks being crittable in general is a really terrible game mechanic, and parry should not be the way to resolve that.

Turn Awareness into another tanking CD, and make tanks automatically not crittable in tanking stance (if you are worried about pvp simply make tanking stance reduce crit chance by 10-20%, make npcs have a set 10-20% chance to crit, or simply make the crit reduction only against npcs), make autoattacks more significant, and faster, and you will end up with a model that puts much higher emphasis on total mitigation instead of spike mitigation, giving healers and tanks more say in how much damage intake there is, and making parry and vitality more attractive while maintaining the main tank in tanking stance.

Also would make PLD more attractive, making their "defensive focus" actually relevant in terms of total sustained mitigation that actively allows for higher healer dps.

Parry its meaningful, is close to 20% dmg reduction. i Love to see my char blocking / parrying / dodging ... that actually make me feel like a tank. U cant parry/block magic on any game.

I do think parry should scale better. And let us know how much parry chance (%), block rate (%) we have

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Originally Posted by Valoiz

Parry its meaningful, is close to 20% dmg reduction. i Love to see my char blocking / parrying / dodging ... that actually make me feel like a tank. U cant parry/block magic on any game.

I do think parry should scale better. And let us know how much parry chance (%), block rate (%) we have

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Parry is not meaningful. Not at all. I would even go so far as to say it is the worst stat a tank can stack excluding VIT after needed threshold and accuracy after needed threshold.

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Originally Posted by Synestra

There was a era in WoW when tanks that stacked migitation stats became a god like beings, dont remember the order but it worked kinda like block/parry in here, first it checked block if that didnt happen it checked parry if that didnt happend it checked dodge and if you capped all those you always got one out of those and it was approx 50% dmg reduction up to 100%(thanks to dodge). Dodge was propably most OP out of those as it nullified all damage while block and parry only halved the damage.

If we had those in here aswell it would allow healers to go nuts with DPS as tanks are now close to immortal :P

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Combat table coverage is what you're thinking about. CTC capped tanks were lolworthy, but only tanks with shields could do it (paladins and warriors).

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Originally Posted by Instrumentality

Combat table coverage is what you're thinking about. CTC capped tanks were lolworthy, but only tanks with shields could do it (paladins and warriors).

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Indeed, though the problem here of course is that FFXIV uses a sequential Multi-Roll system rather than a Combat Table. In this case, 20% parry means you parry 20% of the hits which arent Crits, Evades or Blocks. In WoW, if you had 50% block, 20% dodge and 30% parry you'd NEVER get hit by an regular attack as it would total to 100% and regular hits would be "pushed off the table".

If you had those stats here out of 100 attacks you'd Evade 20 as this is checked first, but then block 40 (50% of 80) and Parry 12 (30% of the remaining 40). 28% of hits would still get through due to the sequential roll system. If you could stack out a combat table as a paladin to completely negate regular hits then Parry might be seen as a stat as vital as Accuracy (cap to x amount) but as it stands it's minor RNG mitigation at best.

I'm mostly butthurt that the devs told us they'd fix parry to be a desirable stat in 3.0. What did they do? They made it a fixed 20% instead of the 2.0 scaling from strength, cutting its effective mitigation by about a third, along with reducing the amount you get per point.

TBH, I actually -like- having a high parry rate (not that you get much choice in gearing nowadays). it's fun to see bosses whack you and get that little -20% come up in the combat text. It makes you feel like the gear you're amassing is helping you be tougher (something the current Tank Meta doesnt encourage). It's not even that Parry Rating is "bad", so much that you're giving something more useful up.

If they arent going to buff the rating, I'd love to see them do something lke they did for Accuracy for Healers: ALL tank gear has Parry on it. Every piece, without exception... but as a third secondary in additoin to acc/sks/crit/det and not taking up any of the item's budget. That way your parry rating naturally increases with your item level in the same way Str/Vit/Defense does, and you gradually increase your mitigation, but it doesnt take away from the DPS boosting secondaries.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

If they arent going to buff the rating, I'd love to see them do something lke they did for Accuracy for Healers: ALL tank gear has Parry on it. Every piece, without exception... but as a third secondary in additoin to acc/sks/crit/det and not taking up any of the item's budget. That way your parry rating naturally increases with your item level in the same way Str/Vit/Defense does, and you gradually increase your mitigation, but it doesnt take away from the DPS boosting secondaries.

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Honestly, this would be best the solution, provided that there was still the option to gear Str vs Vit on Accessories.

bump. Because there are a lot of good ideas and discussion going on in this thread to fix parry.

I would rather have all my gear have critical on it instead. Since its 100x better and helps with threat/aggro.

I want the option to "reforge" my gear to be critical first/determination second. =P

I'd be ok with this as well if it was treated as a tertiary stat. However, I'd be worried that they would use it as an excuse to never expand on defensive stats though. It would create some major stat stagnation in the long run.