If Paladin is "specialized in defense" shouldn't its defense be better always?

@ Ladon

I agree with everything you said. But as I said in another thread having pld/drk as specific physical or magic dmg mitigation tanks was a poor decision by SE. This only leaves pld/drk fighting for a spot, while warrior gets away scott free, since they will always get away being the better choice as ot, why can't the other tanks be as capable as war as ot? But are still capable of mting fine like pld/drk? But I still stand from what I said in this thread too even if SE gets rid of physical/magic dmg specific dmg, which is extremely unlikey since this will affect every job ingame. Plds still either needs a small boast in dps since the mmo meta is always more dps the better, or to give pld more def capabilities to actually make it the qoute in qoute best def tank, so others can do the dps for us easier, namely healers. Either or idc which one really.

Let's keep PLD as the king of physical mitigation and DRK as the king of magical mitigation. I hope they'll balance physical and magical buster so that each one has enough content to shine.

There's a "solution" to make WAR not stepping too much on their ground, since DPS is its ground (Confirmed by Yoshi-p)
Reduce their mitigation.

Yeah, yeah, I know, "nerf" is a bad word, but it's one kind af adjustment.

"But, you'll say, if WAR has less mitigation, don't they risk not being able to main tank really difficult content ?" And I'll say, "Yes, but only as long as they MT alone"

Generally, when you have several bosses, or even trash mobs, you take far less damage than when facing a big bad guy. For these "easier" foes, WAR would keep enough mitigation to survive efficiently.
But for the big bads, you'd need to tank swap because you couldn't maintain a cooldown rotation to keep the boss on you 100% of the time.

This would still follow the view where "every setup can clear every content", it would just require a different strategy.
For example : Brong back the old Inner Beast but other skill as they are now. You can mitigate one tank buster fine, but you'll probably need to swap for the next.

Of course, it would need really precise testing so that WAR mitigation is really lower than PLD or DRK but still enough for content when you need to "MT".

^ waiting for the Warrior uproar. lol

I rather have each tank with different playstyles, while each are also fully capable as mt or ot. They can each still have thier own strengths and weakiness, but thier stengths better make up for those weakiness. High def, less offense or low def, high offense. Not like Plds are now slighty mirginally higher defense to other tanks, with noticable lower offense capabilies. So increase plds def or plds dmg idc which.

I would prefer a system that reflects that then physical/magic tank method. Or some other system that doesn't segregate classes so much. Personally Pld/Drk needs to be reworked not Warrior.

I think the slashing debuff needs to be moved off Warrior and onto Paladin as a first step to aligning the three tanks better and creating a better situation where any combination of tank works as well as the others.

I really don't think mitigation can be tweaked around to the point that all three tanks are viable yet urges the use of one over the other in fights with a triad of jobs. I think the better solution here is not to balance the individual tanks against the others but make it so that the combined toolset and abilities is nearly identical if you go PLD-DRK, PLD-WAR, or WAR-DRK in a party.

The root cause of the issues right now is that there is no PLD-DRK synergy in a party and Warrior has retained the massive amount of synergy it was given to fight the PLD-PLD meta. This simply does not work in the current three tank game. Abilities needs to be shuffled/tweaked around on the three tanks better so that all three tanks complement each-other as was done to make Warrior complement PLD better after 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

There's a "solution" to make WAR not stepping too much on their ground, since DPS is its ground (Confirmed by Yoshi-p)
Reduce their mitigation.

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Nah, the solution is give every tank an Eye debuff. Only reason you bring WAR always as OT now is because it provides Eye. Path is great, but with PLD + DRK you'd have an INT debuff and a STR debuff, which is only slightly worse than Path.

WAR is by no means OP, but it does provide something none of the other tanks do and is a straight DPS gain vs any other composition. Give that to everyone and you can take any of the 3 tanks with no issues.

PLD excels at physical mitigation, DRK excels at magical mitigation, and WAR is the in-between. If it weren't balanced this way you'd just end up with the one optimal comp (tankiest + most dps) and no variation at all. The problem isn't how the tanks mitigate damage, the problem is that WAR has a guaranteed spot and both DRK and PLD have to fight over the raid spot.

Ideally, you can bring any of the 3 and clear the content just fine. And you can, given enough gear. PLD + DRK has cleared A1S and A2S, I'm sure A3S will soon follow (if it hasn't already). That doesn't mean there isn't an imbalance, but it's not as big of a deal as some people would have you believe. This is the trouble with the world first race, people look at what was min/maxed to beat X encounter and think that without that composition you're going to be dealing too little DPS or have too little survivability and therefore won't beat it.

Also I love the "PLD CAN'T MITIGATE MAGIC DAMAGE SO UM PLS BUFF???" argument because there's never a point where they recommend DRK's physical mitigation be buffed. I wonder why...

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Nah, the solution is give every tank an Eye debuff.

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Ok, maybe I don't see the big picture but isn't than somehow the same as "Increase tank DPS" ?

Because, it's the only thing Storm's Eye does, in fact, even if it does it good.

Solutions for PLD's lesser DPS to make it more... fair?

Make Shield/Sword Oath instant swap
Add Piercing Debuff to Royal Authority so that PLD can replace DRG, like DRK can replace MNK.

It isn't that far behind but those changes would help without totally breaking it.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Ok, maybe I don't see the big picture but isn't than somehow the same as "Increase tank DPS" ?

Because, it's the only thing Storm's Eye does, in fact, even if it does it good.

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It increases NIN DPS as well, as with PLD + DRK the NIN would need to keep up DE (and without a NIN you're going to have less tank damage). WAR still does the highest DPS out of the 3 tanks, giving SE to everyone wouldn't step into WAR's "best DPS" territory, but it would allow for PLD + DRK to be a thing without heavy repercussions.

As an example, look at A4S. You've got the boss which only deals magic damage, you've got the add in Quarantine that specifically deals physical, and you've got the Straf Doll that specifically deals physical. PLD + DRK would be a great defensive oriented core here... but since their DPS would plummet without a slashing debuff, you bring DRK + WAR.

Anyway, that's just what I've noticed. I'd personally love all 3 tanks to be equally viable, but I don't think nerfing/changing mitigation is the solution. WAR has to work GCD to GCD to maximize damage and mitigation, and we don't even get the best damage reduction for either physical or magical. We don't need a buff, but we most certainly don't need a nerf.

Something I think that would help, aside from the Eye debuff, is giving DRK a shield equivalent that only works on magic and increasing PLD's DPS to DRK levels. That way DRK and PLD are equal in their respective mitigation departments and DPS. So all tanks could do all content, PLD would excel in physical fight mitigation, DRK would excel in magical fight mitigation, and WAR would be in-between + provide more DPS than the other 2 tanks. Which is how I think SE intended for the jobs to be balanced, and they're nearly there, but the tiny differences in Savage become significantly bigger.

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

Add Piercing Debuff to Royal Authority so that PLD can replace DRG, like DRK can replace MNK.

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Unfortunately, as nice as this solution would be, that's not how it works. The reason DRK can "replace" MNK is because DRK brings the INT down bit of MNK's DK debuff. The other part of DK is blunt resistance down, which only affects MNK's damage. If PLD had DRG's piercing debuff, you would still want a DRG for Battle Litany and the higher sustained DPS. The only thing you would get with PLD having DRG's piercing debuff is being able to not use a DRG and bring a MNK instead, but you would have lower DPS than just using DRK + DRG.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Anyway, that's just what I've noticed. I'd personally love all 3 tanks to be equally viable, but I don't think nerfing/changing mitigation is the solution. WAR has to work GCD to GCD to maximize damage and mitigation, and we don't even get the best damage reduction for either physical or magical. We don't need a buff, but we most certainly don't need a nerf.

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All tanks now have 3 combos in their rotation, WAR is not that much more complicated. And the additionnal GCD for Damage and/or Mitigation is not a big deal and helps them recover TP. You could say that PLD has also some GCD to manage if he wants to stun or use Shield Swipe.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Something I think that would help, aside from the Eye debuff, is giving DRK a shield equivalent that only works on magic

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I think Dark Mind is already a powerful skill to reduce magical damage, and DRK can drain life back with DA+Soul Eater. So, they don't have constant mitigation but constant self-healing (And I'm pretty sure they're close in terms of eHP)

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

So all tanks could do all content, PLD would excel in physical fight mitigation, DRK would excel in magical fight mitigation, and WAR would be in-between + provide more DPS than the other 2 tanks. Which is how I think SE intended for the jobs to be balanced, and they're nearly there, but the tiny differences in Savage become significantly bigger.

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The problem with the "in-between" is when it's far enough. In magical figths, PLD really lacks mitigation. In physical fights, DRK lacks mitigation. But, either in magical of physical, having Inner Beast so often gives WAR sufficient mitigation to be MT all the time. And when mitigation is "sufficient", anything more quickly becomes a waste.

Yes, a DPS increase is a simple solution, but it bugs me to make all tanks more and more similar. I'd really like some adjustment that really change the strat between each tank.
That's why I suggested something to make WAR manage fights very differently.

When I look at WAR in 2.0 it had absolutely no mitigation, and no permanent healing boost. That was clearly not enough to survive content because of the damage scaling. But maybe it could have worked with only some of the changes from 2.1.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Something I think that would help, aside from the Eye debuff, is giving DRK a shield equivalent that only works on magic and increasing PLD's DPS to DRK levels. That way DRK and PLD are equal in their respective mitigation departments and DPS. So all tanks could do all content, PLD would excel in physical fight mitigation, DRK would excel in magical fight mitigation, and WAR would be in-between + provide more DPS than the other 2 tanks. Which is how I think SE intended for the jobs to be balanced, and they're nearly there, but the tiny differences in Savage become significantly bigger.

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^ Could live with that. I already know Drk's Grit Stance is meh compared to Plds that has shields, which they seem to be the exact opposite to Plds. Shields to block physical dmg, and idk "Dark Aura" for Drks to block magical dmg. If Plds got a dps increase comparable to Drks. But when I think about it there is no toolset for Drk for a magic block, and if they did it would be way too op. Kinda why I think the mass majority of tank busters will stay as magic dmg in future patches. Reasoning why is because of Plds Sheltron quickly becomes way too op against physical tank busters. Hive Shield already gives 28% mitigation, and this will only grow in future patches. This could quickly make plds single tanking encounters if there is no need for 2 tanks.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

The only thing you would get with PLD having DRG's piercing debuff is being able to not use a DRG and bring a MNK instead, but you would have lower DPS than just using DRK + DRG.

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Yep but the difference wouldn't be as far off as it is now. Is what I was getting at.

In magic heavy fights, i would say that PLD are more suited to be OT.. Though a bit more support-oriented than a WAR OT. As for physical, PLD will be MT with WAR as OT having slashing debuff from WAR as PLD Darkside. So I guess a PLD is still not out of flavor but just needs a few QoL changes to make them more fun to play like increased enmity gained from generators so i can weave in more RAs in between gore dots.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

All tanks now have 3 combos in their rotation, WAR is not that much more complicated. And the additionnal GCD for Damage and/or Mitigation is not a big deal and helps them recover TP. You could say, that PLD has also some GCD to manage if he wants to stun or use Shield Swipe.

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WAR is more complicated.

Wrath/Abandon, the main mechanic of WAR, is based on certain GCDs (and some oGCDs). Skull Sunder, Butcher's Block, Maim, Storm's Eye, Storm's Path, Vengeance, Berserk, and Raw Intuition.

To fully maximize both DPS and mitigation you have to literally know exactly what GCD you will press every ~2.5s of the fight. If you slack on one GCD, now your IB is going to be one GCD later, or your Unchained, or you won't get your triple Fell Cleave, etc. etc. I don't know which tank you play, but if you ever MTed T13 when it was still relevant you'd notice that there is an incredibly careful dance to mitigate every Flare Breath, to mitigate every Flatten, and to use Unchained optimally.

Playing WAR to it's fullest extent is not as easy as PLD and DRK. Most people like to pretend that because PLD has 3 combos now, it's just as hard as WAR! Nah. We're out here working for this mitigation, for this damage, we have to learn the fight so intrinsically that it is etched into our brain. I have every single GCD I press in A1S mapped out to maximize my time in Deliverance, to have Unchained up to then build 5 stacks just in time for the cleave + tank buster, to then go back into Deliverance and have Path up every time it's needed but using BB when I can afford exactly 11 GCDs without it... WAR tanking isn't a walk in the park.

I know that all sounds like "WAR's the hardest therefore should be the best", but I don't believe that. Balancing around difficulty doesn't work out because people will just bring the best players of the hardest jobs and exclude all the easy to play jobs. But pretending like PLD and DRK are just as hard is a bit foolish. I don't mean that to be offensive, most people have this assumption now that PLD has 3 combo paths, but man... I did not put all my effort into learning every intricacy of this job to be compared to PLD, a job I played in 2.0 and randomly in every subsequent patch. I know what PLD is like, adding 2 more combos doesn't make that job any less mind-numbing.

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I think Dark Mind is already a powerful skill to reduce magical damage, and DRK can drain life back with DA+Soul Eater. So, they don't have constant mitigation but constant self-healing (And I'm pretty sure they're close in terms of eHP)

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I agree that Dark Mind is powerful, but I don't think it's powerful enough. I don't play DRK, though, so I am speaking out of line a bit - if you play DRK then I'm willing to believe it's as good as a shield. DA + Soul Eater, though, while a good HP regeneration isn't the equivalent of blocking an attack. You'll usually end up overhealing yourself (which means part or all of it is worthless) and when you don't, heals were coming anyway and now those are overhealing you. It's a similar situation to when WAR's IB was just a large heal and there's a reason that's been changed. Again, though, don't play DRK so might be wrong.

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The problem with the "in-between" is when it's far enough. In magical figths, PLD really lacks mitigation. In physical fights, DRK lacks mitigation. But, either in magical of physical, having Inner Beast so often gives WAR sufficient mitigation to be MT all the time. And when mitigation is "sufficient", anything more quickly becomes a waste.

Yes, a DPS increase is a simple solution, but it bugs me to make all tanks more and more similar. I'd really like some adjustment that really change the strat between each tank.
That's why I suggested something to make WAR manage fights very differently.

When I look at WAR in 2.0 it had absolutely no mitigation, and no permanent healing boost. That was clearly not enough to survive content because of the damage scaling. But maybe it could have worked with only some of the changes from 2.1.

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This is less a problem with WAR and more a problem with the fights themselves. Currently, outside of A4S possibly, no fight in Savage warrants PLD or DRK's mitigation over WAR's DPS output. If the damage was higher to showcase WAR's in-between mitigation and therefore warrant the higher mitigation of PLD/DRK then each job's roles would be more apparent. For DPS check fights with high damage, you'd bring a WAR as OT. For DPS check fights with lower damage (or more spread out damage), you'd bring a WAR as MT. For fights with heavy mitigation checks, you'd bring a DRK + PLD. And with gear, all 3 tanks would be able to do all of that.

I think 2.0 WAR could've worked with HP returned converting into shields rather than simply being an HP absorb, but they just decided to homogenize WAR with PLD. I don't think reverting everything back and making changes from there is the solution, though. We should work with what we've got and not make too many drastic changes. Give all the tanks an Eye debuff, give PLD some extra DPS, things would be a lot more even and you could use any comp without feeling the need to have a WAR or w/e.

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

Add Piercing Debuff to Royal Authority so that PLD can replace DRG, like DRK can replace MNK.

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Regarding the Piercing debuff.. it's not a nerf exactly, but Monk isn't too happy with Delirium:

DRG took top-likely DPS single target, Battle Litany > Mantra, and DRK's Delirium == Dragon Kick's INT Down, so now Monks can just eat cake.

For ^this situation I'd prefer Delirium get a Blunt Resistance Down as well so that MNKs can drop Dragon Kick and enjoy Bootshine exclusively in Opo-Opo (DRK/MNK synergy just like WAR/NIN synergy). But I feel giving PLD Piercing Debuff replicates this problem for DRG (and worse, DRG can't 'drop' Disembowel), so I would want to consider other alternatives first.

With PLD OT healer utility, it could work, but some adjustments.. Clemency.. This spell works identical to Stoneskin - and that's a cross-classed Conjurer spell D:

3 second cast and interrupts combos.. In fact it's sort of worse than Stoneskin because proactive buffs like SS can be cast whenever. A heal needs to be timed. Timed! Jacking PLD DPS up is work enough already..

IMO Clemency should at least not interrupt combos.. and then maybe move it oGCD (could keep cast-time even). At least then it would be easier for PLD to land a well timed Clemency to help the healers out - hence actual OT contribution.

And Sheltron should block a magical attack.. I should just put that in my sig

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Originally Posted by Xenosan

And Sheltron should block a magical attack.. I should just put that in my sig

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So much no to Sheltron should block magical dmg, I am just like the next Pld players in line. I Do want to see some changes done to Plds here and there, but don't make them op. If Sheltron could block magical dmg it would sorefully outclass every other tank ingame the way the game currently is...I just want a small boast in dps or in def, not a large one, and I want some redesigns of Clemency, Shield Swipe, and Divine Veil.

@Warrior Haters
And leave our War brothers alone, and don't say tanking as a War is comparable to Pld/Drk. lol Ask SE to fix Pld/Drk first, and make all tanks good for different reasons to be mts, and ots. Warriors work hard for what they get, there is a reason I play Pld over War more. I simply do not have that type of time/dedication to main Warrior why I play Pld.

Hi Xenosan, I mainly mean so that if a DRG is not in the party that the BRD and/or MCH are not penalized.

Basically 1 of those 2 is required for savage, so the only way to buff their damage is to bring a DRG, and then NIN buffs everyones damage. So with that last DPS spot you bring a ranged right?

So if you want to bring a MNK, you don't need the DRK so you can bring PLD, but then your BRD/MCH does 75 less DPS. You are just penalized for using that setup is all, is what I mean!

Its slightly different than MNK, whom is the only blunt user anyways so no one "needs" to help buff thier damage.

Blocking while casting needs to be a thing.

Support spells need their cast time lowered to match GCD.

Shield swipe needs to have it's potency lowered, but be oGCD or restore some small amount of TP.

RA, have it raise the paladin's spell casting speed.

With these adjustments you get better support OT and slightly better defense while in the MT spot for any defensive situation, while not being TP starved if the group is good enough to let them go on the offensive, assuming it's a "physical" fight.


They also need to give DRK a means to restore TP while OTing

I'm of the impression that Shield Swipe needs a complete makeover. Pacification doesn't even work half the time except while leveling, but when you need it, you probably won't be able to use it because its not off GCD.

Here's how I would change Shield Swipe...

When in Shield Oath
Shield of Faith: Every successful block adds one stack to Shield of Faith for 20 seconds. When Shield of Faith is activated, reduces magical damage taken by 10% per stack consumed. Maximum 3 stacks. Recast: 90 seconds

When in Sword Oath
Wrathful Shield: Every auto-attack has a chance to gain one stack of Wrathful Shield. When Wrathful Shield is activated, does 150% damage per stack and restores 100 TP per stack used. Maximum 3 stacks. Recast: 90 seconds.

Obviously numbers would need to be tweaked but this IMO would be the easiest way to "fix" paladin TP, damage, and OT capability issues without drastically changing the existing toolkit.

SE could always make shelltron to also block magic attacks(i actually got this impression from benchmark video), and the amount of blocked magic damage depends on your shield. Atm Hive would block approx 28% every 30s and with kite it would be slightly lower, makeing it almost good if not better than DM depending what kind of shield you use.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Wrath/Abandon, the main mechanic of WAR, is based on certain GCDs (and some oGCDs). Skull Sunder, Butcher's Block, Maim, Storm's Eye, Storm's Path, Vengeance, Berserk, and Raw Intuition.

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They're based on your combos, mainly, it's not like jump into hoops to steadily built them.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

To fully maximize both DPS and mitigation you have to literally know exactly what GCD you will press every ~2.5s of the fight.

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To fully maxmize DPS as PLD, you have to think when you can stance dance properly. Because stance dancing delay your next GCD and interrupt combos. For DRK, you also have to think of your MP cost, of the skills you gain or lose in each stance.
I have the feeling that WAR like to think PLD and DRK will just Tank stance and repeat their combo while WAR is the only one who need to maximize its DPS. Besides, when MTing, PLD needs to switch between it's three combos constantly. Since WAR can't maintain all of its buff/debuff, while doing it's more powerful combo, you don't have to worry about that.
Let's don't forget that DRK is also a lot "faster" to play with a lot more CD skill.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I agree that Dark Mind is powerful, but I don't think it's powerful enough. I don't play DRK, though, so I am speaking out of line a bit

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I haven't tried Alex Savage yet, but for all the rest Dark Mind is really useful, and a so "short" cooldown means that you'll usually stack it on top of one of your other CD.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

DA + Soul Eater, though, while a good HP regeneration isn't the equivalent of blocking an attack.

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If terms of overall damage taken, it's close. If you take 4000 after 20% reduction from block, it's really close to taking 5000 damage then leeching 1000.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

You'll usually end up overhealing yourself (which means part or all of it is worthless) and when you don't, heals were coming anyway and now those are overhealing you.

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Not really. Healers don't jump on you as soon as you lose a few thousands HP, so DA+Soul Eater will actually delay the "threshold" for when they need to pop a strong heal.
The problem with previous Inner Beast is that WAR did lose HP at a faster rate and only received really enhanced healing while Infuriated.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

This is less a problem with WAR and more a problem with the fights themselves.

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Of course, we have no personal beef with WARs. But the design and the tank meta favors them most, and we don't see the meta changing in another direction for now.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I think 2.0 WAR could've worked with HP returned converting into shields rather than simply being an HP absorb, but they just decided to homogenize WAR with PLD.

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I also think previous Inner Beast would work wonder with the level 60. Our damage increased far more than our HP, so the scaling is much better. And with it, WAR would be more of a reactive tank than proactive, which, IMO, fits the job better, still helps it survive fights in the long run, but makes it less effective to eat several tankbusters, which would force some tank swaps.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Snip.

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Nothing against you, but I think you honestly never main tanked raids as a warrior.

Warrior's GCD to GCD decisions are a bit more complicated than the rotate-the-3-combos-you-have-and-you're-set mentality PLD has.

Every Fracture used is a wrath/abandon stack you haven't built in the next 2.5s. Every FC you use is an IB you aren't gonna use. When you decide to use Unchained, you have to make sure you have enough time (17.5 seconds) to build wrath back up for IB before the buster is coming. Balancing the mitigation while doing the maximum DPS allowed on WAR is complicated. I will ignore the whole situationality of WAR's 3 combos because you end up using only 2.

For PLD, you have 3 combos you rotate alternatively! It really is down to GB > RoH > RA in that order. You may interchange them or replace one for another entirely but that's it. It has 1 optimal use that is irrelevant of the situation. Whatever combos you use do not affect how your other CDs offensively or defensively work. You can use your combos or not use them at all, as long as you press Rampart before the buster you're fine! And as I said, for DPS, you have 1 optimal rotation of GB > RoH > RA.

DRK is the same as PLD in that however it works its combos, it doesn't affect how their CDs work with the exception of Dark Mind (and lolDarkDance). But even then, Dark Mind can still work if you mess up your Dark Arts. You can still use Dark Mind for 15% mitigation, yes it's not 30%, but it's mitigation. All of the 6 oGCDs you have as DRK are just added DPS. They all come down to "if it's up, press". With the exception of C&S, any oGCD the DRK has is a direct DPS increase with no impact on defense.

If a WAR used Unchained or mistimed IB and Infuriate isn't up or even locked itself with the wrong GCD, that's a fully unmitigated hit. And if you wanna say you can use a CD, both DRK and WAR stack CDs with DM/IB. DRK still loses less. PLD has no such situation.

That's the whole point of complication that SpookyGhost and any WAR player refers to.

Now for stance dancing, PLD is clunky, not complicated. All the planning PLD has to do is "Finish this combo before I switch". If you want to, you can drop Shield Oath (just like Grit), finish your combo, then pop Sword Oath. None of the three tanks have difficult stance dancing mechanics. But out of the three tanks, the most impactful stance dancing comes to WAR because it loses/gains abilities.

I agree with you Dark Mind is powerful because of its short CD. It can either:
1- Be stacked with other CDs for more oomf on magic damage mitigation.
2- Fill in gaps before and between the other CDs if there is a hail of magic busters (Bismark Ex serpents!)

Soul Eater is there to alleviate the lack of passive mitigation from the shield. It helps by complementing the regen effects on you. So no, Soul Eater isn't translated into overhealing. (This is directed at SpookyGhost :p)

The problem with the old Inner Beast is the whole old WAR kit, not the scaling. WAR had to choose between more healing received or just healing received? lol... It was a joke. WAR had no means to survive big damage. Berserked, WAR could heal for about 2.8k HP out of its 6.2k at ilv90. That's almost 50% of its HP. But it doesn't matter how much you can heal with IB if you can't survive Death Sentence that could sometimes hit for 7k.

As for proactive vs reactive, that's personal opinion. I'd like to have the option for both, to proactively mitigate damage and then react according to how situations go.

Every Shield Swipe proc is a delay in GCD, can be a DPS increase or decrease depending if you spread your combo on several targets or if you have the time to finish your combo.
Every Stun can be a bit too late if the casting bar is short and your GCD is on.
Every stance change is a reset to your combo, meaning that your DoT and RoH will fall.
You need to think your cooldown rotation to match the frequence of tank busters so that you'll have one ready each time.
You'll need to follow the pattern of attacks to cast Clemency (even as a main tank) without being interrupted.

As for Dark Arts, it costs a lot of MP. Would you use it on each Dark Passenger, each Dark Mind, each Soul Eater and some Power Slash ? Or even with Adyssal Drain ? Do you need Carve and Spit to gain MP or do damage ?
Grit prevents you from using Blood Weapon, Darkside is needed to use several skills, and Soul Eater only heals you with Grit. You have plenty of things to think about if you want to max out DRK.
In fact, I'm pretty sure very few people had already managed to "perfect" DRK's gameplay.

Sorry, but stance dancing on WAR is still the more forgiving, just because it converts Wrath to Abandon and back, meaning you can prepare your damage in tank stance, and strike immediatly in DPS stance.

Yes, WAR's previous entire toolkit was far too behind. No mitigation skill, no oh-shit button and a tank stance which was massively behind the PLD.

I haven't done T5 as a WAR, but I suppose people didn't expect tank swaps, so WAR was in a really bad spot. With Vengeance and tank swapping (On top of Stoneskin and Adloquium), I'm sure it would have been perfectly viable.

Yes, "proactive vs reactive" is a personal opinion. It's just that WAR had Thrill Of Battle from the start, and Defiance is clearly a reactive skill, so I think it'd a more "coherent" toolkit.
And you'd still keep Vengeance and Raw Intuitionn which are proactive.

What would be better for WAR, though (Yes, some ideas to make WAR even better) is for WAR skills to not be "locked" behind Defiance/Deliverance. I'd like every Wrath/Andon skill to work like Equilibrium.
For example, under Defiance, Inner Beast would heal you, and under Deliverance, it would basically become Fell Cleave by gaining potency. This would allow WAR's toolkit to have the same number of skills than others job, and more room to make more interesting skill...because, let's be honest, Steel Cyclone and Decimate could be the same skill.

Wrath/Abadon could also be fused and only give a different buff depending on stance, since nothing gives specifically one or the other.

And again, lorewise, your Inner Beast is something that makes you unleash your rage to kill everything and very difficult to control. In-game, the only thing that makes WAR laugh maniacally is spamming Fell Cleave :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Every Shield Swipe proc is a delay in GCD, can be a DPS increase or decrease depending if you spread your combo on several targets or if you have the time to finish your combo.
Every Stun can be a bit too late if the casting bar is short and your GCD is on.
Every stance change is a reset to your combo, meaning that your DoT and RoH will fall.
You need to think your cooldown rotation to match the frequence of tank busters so that you'll have one ready each time.
You'll need to follow the pattern of attacks to cast Clemency (even as a main tank) without being interrupted.

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I would agree with you if any of these scenarios were relevant or vital to your survival. They also have the following misconceptions:
- Doing your three combos, your GB and RoH are actually clipped by at least 1 GCD before they fall off. So you can Shield Swipe or change stances with a benefiting impact on DoT/Debuff timers.
- Since when was your stun relevant to raids? You can't bring something as irrelevant as this. And when your stun DOES work, it's 6s of 100% mitigation (similar to Hallowed Ground!!!). It is the longest stun in the game! Can be repeated with a DR for a total of 10s of stunned target!!
- Stance change is 1 GCD, plenty of time to refresh DoT/Debuff.
- WAR and DRK also have to consider their CD rotations as well. It's not just IB.
- You are not a self-healing tank, you are a pure mitigation tank. If you do manage to cast Clemency, you become ahead of WAR in terms of damage mitigated and healed. So I do not see the minus in here.

Are we grasping at straws here? I mean really?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

As for Dark Arts, it costs a lot of MP. Would you use it on each Dark Passenger, each Dark Mind, each Soul Eater and some Power Slash ? Or even with Adyssal Drain ? Do you need Carve and Spit to gain MP or do damage ?
Grit prevents you from using Blood Weapon, Darkside is needed to use several skills, and Soul Eater only heals you with Grit. You have plenty of things to think about if you want to max out DRK.
In fact, I'm pretty sure very few people had already managed to "perfect" DRK's gameplay.

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Again, none of these impact your defensively. The core mechanic of DRK is that you have only so much MP to use Dark Arts 4 or 5 times a minute. WAR can't even have enough Wrath/Abandon for 5 skills a minute! You choose which skills to boost based on situations. 9/10 times you will unload DAs for more DPS. What you are talking about is just integrating Dark Arts into the basic skills to achieve "perfect" DRK gameplay. Again, are you grasping at straws to make DRK sound difficult?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Sorry, but stance dancing on WAR is still the more forgiving, just because it converts Wrath to Abandon and back, meaning you can prepare your damage in tank stance, and strike immediatly in DPS stance.

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So WAR losing Inner Beast is forgiving when the other two tanks keep all their defensive toolkit. It is also forgiving because it is the only one that locks you out for 10 seconds. Please.

It converting Wrath/Abandon is just a side effect. DRK keeps the rest of its MP when it turns on Grit and loses no MP when it turns it off. Why should WAR lose all its resources? It's already paying for the stance change by losing access to abilities and getting locked out for 10s.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, WAR's previous entire toolkit was far too behind. No mitigation skill, no oh-shit button and a tank stance which was massively behind the PLD.

I haven't done T5 as a WAR, but I suppose people didn't expect tank swaps, so WAR was in a really bad spot. With Vengeance and tank swapping (On top of Stoneskin and Adloquium), I'm sure it would have been perfectly viable.

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You do know Vengeance reducing damage by 30% was a 2.1 thing, right? Before 2.1 it was almost impossible for WAR to solo tank T5. But it was done with swaps. ShinRa (my FC at the time and Phoenix Server first T5) did T5 with swaps even after 2.1 came out.

WAR became the "better" solo tank for almost any encounter after 2.1.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, "proactive vs reactive" is a personal opinion. It's just that WAR had Thrill Of Battle from the start, and Defiance is clearly a reactive skill, so I think it'd a more "coherent" toolkit.
And you'd still keep Vengeance and Raw Intuitionn which are proactive.

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Thrill of Battle is meant to be used proactively before you receive the damage. It gives a 20% of your max HP as a buffer. Using it as a reactive heal is the wrong way to do it.

Defiance is useless if you're not at max HP or aren't receiving the heal. It has a more proactive nature than reactive.

Only reactive ability in the old WAR toolkit was Inner Beast which you used after big bursts to refill HP faster.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seku

*Snip*

RA, have it raise the paladin's spell casting speed.

*Snip*

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You know, I really like the idea of Royal Authority giving a casting speed buff...that could totally be its "Thing". Could make it work like a mix of AST's Lightspeed and DRK's Dark Arts...next spell cast has its cast time reduced by 1-1.5s, fades on use...

Would also open the way for other "Spell" abilities down the line...like that Sultan's Brand skill whatsisname uses in the 60 PLD job quest...RA-ing into that for better AoE...wanna get real forward thinking, traits down the line to let us stack the buff multiple times, 1-1.5s reduced each time...instant clemencies every two RA's..hehe...give us longer casting standalone abilities with heavy damage and then let us whittle them down to reasonable with this off RA...

Yeah, I really like the idea of a cast speed buff off RA...

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

I would agree with you if any of these scenarios were relevant or vital to your survival.

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Wow, wow, slow down. Nothing tied to Deliverance is "vital" to your survival. What you mentionned is how to push WAR in both mitigation AND dps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

- Doing your three combos, your GB and RoH are refreshed at least 1 GCD before they fall off. So you can Shield Swipe or change stances with no impact on DoT/Debuff timers.

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On my PLD i184, I have 555 skill speed, which put my GCD at 2.42s. When I do RoH > GB > RA, STR Down falls during my next RoH and DoT is refreshed at 1s. So, another GCD and each would fall.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

- You are not a self-healing tank, you are a pure mitigation tank.

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Actually, the design team seems to disagree with you when they gave us Clemency...and PLD is still the one supposed to have knowledge of conjuring skill, mainly healing. And it's not like PLD's concept included healing spells in almost every FF entry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Again, none of these impact your defensively.

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Again, we're talking about pushing your job, not leisurely surviving encouters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

So WAR losing Inner Beast is forgiving when the other two tanks keep all their defensive toolkit.

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Well, yes, because defense is supposed to be their specialty, and not WAR's...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

It is also forgiving because it is the only one that locks you out for 10 seconds. Please.

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Well, you don't stance dance on PLD or DRK for less than 10s too, it would be a DPS loss.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

It converting Wrath/Abandon is just a side effect. DRK keeps the rest of its MP when it turns on Grit and loses no MP when it turns it off. Why should WAR lose all its resources?

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Yeah, the "rest" of its MP...MP that are used for for a whole bunch of other skills and constantly drained. Ok, let WAR lose 1 stack. If would be enough to change stance dancing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

You do know Vengeance reducing damage by 30% was a 2.1 thing, right?

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Yes, I know. And I specifically said to keep Vengeance as it is now. And with THAT Vengeance, T5 with swap tank "would have been" perfectly viable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Defiance is useless if you're not at max HP or aren't receiving the heal. It has a more proactive nature than reactive.

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Well, Defiance being useless "before" the damage is exatcly what a reactive skill heal. The major boost of Defiance is how it helps healing the WAR after he receives damage.
For example, if you don't have Defiance before the hit and put it on just after, it will help recovering from this hit with the healing boost. Thus, reactive.
Do the same with Grit or Shield Oath, you'd have taken the full damage and it doesn't help you recover from hit. Thus, proactive.

[this among other issues]

It's because of how things work here and the "balances" to the classes.

It's a battle for threat first and protecting yourself which protects others as a result. And that is the biggest thing wrong about this whole system. It encourages less defense building because the offensive needed to be "defensive" blows. That's not considering everything else wrong with on the DPS's side on it.

Threat Multipliers are low. And enmity boosts in DPS stance are enough to over power PLDs if the DPS stance tank is stronger than the PLD. Worse when it's easy to out threat them as DPS.

PLDs get Shield Oath last, and which only proves how this works and what's needed for it to work, and so much worse. And it is one of the single most dumbest things yet in an MMO.

Because PLDs are weak, things always take longer, which puts more work on everyone involved. Fights last longer, DPS must burn more, and healers have to heal more, all while the tank is taking more hits cause the things are living longer than it would with a DRK or WAR. The extremes constantly break the game shoving the ugly truth about PLDs in your face, up your nose and down your throat, if you hadn't already caught on. It is just terrible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Wow, wow, slow down. Nothing tied to Deliverance is "vital" to your survival. What you mentionned is how to push WAR in both mitigation AND dps.

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Yeah, but nothing you mentioned is tied to either mitigation nor DPS. Come on, Shield Bash? lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

On my PLD i184, I have 555 skill speed, which put my GCD at 2.42s. When I do RoH > GB > RA, STR Down falls during my next RoH and DoT is refreshed at 1s. So, another GCD and each would fall.

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GB is 24s, that's 9.6 GCDs. You need 9 GCDs from GB to GB again, leaving you with 0.6s. Any additional Skill Speed should give you 1 more GCD.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Actually, the design team seems to disagree with you when they gave us Clemency...and PLD is still the one supposed to have knowledge of conjuring skill, mainly healing. And it's not like PLD's concept included healing spells in almost every FF entry.

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In the Japanese version, the job is called "Knight". In every FF entry, no "Knight" had the ability to heal except the one in FF1, and it had Cure 1 only.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Again, we're talking about pushing your job, not leisurely surviving encouters.

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Again, when added DPS does not conflict with added mitigation, there is no "complication".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Well, yes, because defense is supposed to be their specialty, and not WAR's...

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Based on that logic, PLD losing DPS when stance dancing is totally justified since it's WAR's specialty, not PLD's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Well, you don't stance dance on PLD or DRK for less than 10s too, it would be a DPS loss.

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Grasping at straws. PLDs and DRKs pay 1 GCD as a penalty. WAR pays 10s lockout and loss of skills. That's my point. Do not try to twist it and make it as if PLDs and DRKs lose far more than WAR.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yeah, the "rest" of its MP...MP that are used for for a whole bunch of other skills and constantly drained. Ok, let WAR lose 1 stack. If would be enough to change stance dancing.

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That same MP is also constantly recovered.

I don't mind WAR losing 1 stack when swapping. There is only 1 scenario where we get full stacks then swap for FC, and that is during Unchained. Any defensive Scenario means we get 5 stacks > swap > Vengeance/Raw Intuition > Inner Beast. So no real changes in the big picture. But if it means to shut people like you up then fine. Sadly, it won't. People will still come online, log onto these forums and still complain that WAR can still stance dance at "no cost".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, I know. And I specifically said to keep Vengeance as it is now. And with THAT Vengeance, T5 with swap tank "would have been" perfectly viable.

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Old WAR tanked T5 with tank swap just fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Well, Defiance being useless "before" the damage is exatcly what a reactive skill heal. The major boost of Defiance is how it helps healing the WAR after he receives damage.
For example, if you don't have Defiance before the hit and put it on just after, it will help recovering from this hit with the healing boost. Thus, reactive.
Do the same with Grit or Shield Oath, you'd have taken the full damage and it doesn't help you recover from hit. Thus, proactive.

---

If you don't have Defiance before the hit, you lose 25% HP layer, hence taking more damage and require more healing than you would otherwise. No it's not reactive. It's a proactive stance. It's not something you activate because you took damage. It's something you activate in order to take less damage, not so you get healed more.

Any heal received while in Grit or Shield Oath is 5% (spells) or 20% (abilities) better than Defiance. So used reactively after receiving damage, those stances are still better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

Because PLDs are weak, things always take longer, which puts more work on everyone involved. Fights last longer, DPS must burn more, and healers have to heal more, all while the tank is taking more hits cause the things are living longer than it would with a DRK or WAR. The extremes constantly break the game shoving the ugly truth about PLDs in your face, up your nose and down your throat, if you hadn't already caught on. It is just terrible.

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Oh please, it's not like PLD does 0 DPS and WAR does 3500.

PLD does 650~750 DPS while tanking. If you do less than that, reconfigure how you approach the encounter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anger

Moreso, we have little-to-no purpose.

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Hallowed ground. while this ability stays as it is you have no right to complain about pld being weak.

hallowed ground seriously ins't that good smh

it's 8-9 seconds (it's NEVER a full 10, the thing has a damnable animation delay before it activates that still ticks down the duration), on a cooldown so long it can only be used once per any given encounter, and maybe twice or thrice in a dungon if you pop it early.


I won't argue that it's somehow bad or not good, because it IS a good panic button, but it's not the damn moon and stars super slam dunk charles barkley that makes us the shining stars of defense which are completely immortal and don't ever die that people keep arguing it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

GB is 24s, that's 9.6 GCDs. You need 9 GCDs from GB to GB again, leaving you with 0.6s. Any additional Skill Speed should give you 1 more GCD.

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Yes, I need 9. Add one GCD, like Shield Swipe or change stance, that makes 10, and GB will fall, or even having to retreat for an AoE. And RoH falls earlier.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

In the Japanese version, the job is called "Knight". In every FF entry, no "Knight" had the ability to heal except the one in FF1, and it had Cure 1 only.

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FFI : Knight -> White Magic
FFIII : Knight -> White Magic
FF IV : Paladin -> White Magic
FF V : Knight -> No White Magic but this is the job than learn to use Two-handed to do massive damage. We can go that way, if you want :p
FF IX : Both Knight for Steiner and PLD for Beatrix. Either massive physical DPS or White Magic, pick one.
FF XI : Paladin -> White Magic up to Cure 4
FF XII International : Knight -> Advanced White Magic, up to Regen and Curaja, Bravery and Faith
FF Tactics : Knight -> Powerful debuff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Based on that logic, PLD losing DPS when stance dancing is totally justified since it's WAR's specialty, not PLD's.

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Yes, of course they lose DPS, I'm fine with that. But good PLD try to minimize this loss by changing stance at the right moment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Grasping at straws. PLDs and DRKs pay 1 GCD as a penalty. WAR pays 10s lockout and loss of skills. That's my point. Do not try to twist it and make it as if PLDs and DRKs lose far more than WAR.

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No, it's not. If a PLD spent less that 10s after stance dancing, he's just playing bad, and can't be considered as a reference. It's a if you say "You see, PLD can stack Sheltron+Rampart+Sentinel+Convalesence to have a far more instant mitigation than WAR. Yes, but a PLD doesn't do that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

I don't mind WAR losing 1 stack when swapping. There is only 1 scenario where we get full stacks then swap for FC, and that is during Unchained.

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You'll always lose one stack. Nowadays, you can build 4, then swap, then pop berserk for your fifth stack, and Fell Cleave immediatly. If you lose one, you'll need to burn an additional CD, which can bite you, of start a new combo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, I need 9. Add one GCD, like Shield Swipe or change stance, that makes 10, and GB will fall, or even having to retreat for an AoE. And RoH falls earlier.

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Hence I'm right. GB is reapplied right as it falls off at 10 GCDs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

FFI : Knight -> White Magic
FFIII : Knight -> White Magic
FF IV : Paladin -> White Magic
FF V : Knight -> No White Magic but this is the job than learn to use Two-handed to do massive damage. We can go that way, if you want :p
FF IX : Both Knight for Steiner and PLD for Beatrix. Either massive physical DPS or White Magic, pick one.
FF XI : Paladin -> White Magic up to Cure 4
FF XII International : Knight -> Advanced White Magic, up to Regen and Curaja, Bravery and Faith
FF Tactics : Knight -> Powerful debuff

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In FFIII: Knight had Defend, not White Magic. Even if it did, it didn't pass level 1.
FFIV: Paladin, not Knight.
FFV: Knight, no white magic.
FFIX: Steiner was Knight, no white magic. Beatrix was "Holy Knight", she had White Magic.
FFXI: PLD was also called Knight in the JP version but it had high levels White Magic spells its skill ratings were A- healing, A+ divine and C buffs.
FFXII International: Even when they added the zodiac job system, jobs weren't true to their origins. SAM used magical swords and NIN didn't dual wield.
FFT: Knight, no white magic. Cool debuffs. Wish FFXIV PLD was half as cool!

This agrees to my point though: Traditional Knight didn't always have White Magic. And all of this is irrelevant as this is FFXIV. WAR was never the self-healer in FF history:

FFI: WAR had attack and defend. WAR used all weapons in the game.
FFIII: WAR had Advance, 25% more damage but take 25% more damage. (Traditional Berserk). WAR used most weapons.
FFV: WAR was... Knight? lol
FFXI: WAR had provoke. Why does GLD have it in XIV?! WAR also used all weapons in the game except (great)Katana.
FFT: Squire? lol..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, of course they lose DPS, I'm fine with that. But good PLD try to minimize this loss by changing stance at the right moment.

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So it's justified? Great, we agree. WAR already loses lots of defenses switching to Deliverance. So we're even!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, it's not. If a PLD spent less that 10s after stance dancing, he's just playing bad, and can't be considered as a reference. It's a if you say "You see, PLD can stack Sheltron+Rampart+Sentinel+Convalesence to have a far more instant mitigation than WAR. Yes, but a PLD doesn't do that.

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WAR popping all its CDs aside from HG has 214% eHP (44% mitigation + 20% max HP) on magical and with RI it goes up to 267% physical eHP.
PLD popping all its CDs aside from HG has 207% eHP (48% mitigation) and on a block it goes up to 259% ~ 287% (Kite ~ Tower Shield) physical eHP.

Funny, WAR actually wins this one. I do not bring it up because you never realistically stack this many CDs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You'll always lose one stack. Nowadays, you can build 4, then swap, then pop berserk for your fifth stack, and Fell Cleave immediatly. If you lose one, you'll need to burn an additional CD, which can bite you, of start a new combo.

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As I said, WAR can get around that easily and people will still come to the forums and complain about it. Trust me, if WAR's stance dancing was unfair, SE would've already addressed it the moment they added Deliverance and Grit into the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nyttyn

hallowed ground seriously ins't that good smh

it's 8-9 seconds (it's NEVER a full 10, the thing has a damnable animation delay before it activates that still ticks down the duration), on a cooldown so long it can only be used once per any given encounter, and maybe twice or thrice in a dungon if you pop it early.

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Fights last between 11 to 15 minutes. You can use Hallowed Ground 2 or 3 times in a fight. Realistically twice. The buff starts and ticks after the animation delay, check it again.

I will say this to you as I said it to another PLD:

In 2.1 and after, WARs told PLDs: "WAR is equally good as MT", their reply? "No, we have Hallowed Ground!"

Now that we're saying "PLD is actually good because of Hallowed Ground", you say "it is not good enough"?

Please PLDs, grow up. You are still the best tanks in terms of mitigation. You will not do any more DPS as long as that fact remains.

Few things I just wanted to say because I've had this argument one too many times and don't want to go through it all again:

1. Thanks for the information about DA + Soul Eater, I actually didn't know it healed for that much. I suppose it only overlaps with fairy heals and Regen/Med2 ticks, which isn't as bad and similar to Block/Parry.

2. Though Phoenica covered pretty much everything, I think the key thing to acknowledge is that WAR's mitigation and damage is GCD to GCD, whereas DRK and PLD only use GCDs for damage. Anyway, I'm not trying to have a schlong measuring fight with what I said, I just really love WAR and it's complexity - when I played PLD I barely felt like playing the game at all anymore. You can disagree, it doesn't really matter, my point was mainly that difficulty of a job shouldn't justify any massive difference over the other 2 tanks. I feel like SE benefits all 3 tanks too much and should be given to everyone.

3. HG is the best defensive CD in the game. It allows healers to entirely ignore you for 8~10s and you can take any amount of damage in that time. Even on it's incredibly long CD (which is how it's balanced), it's still the best button you can press at any given time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

In 2.1 and after, WARs told PLDs: "WAR is equally good as MT", their reply? "No, we have Hallowed Ground!"

---

What I said to WAR from 2.1 until 2.5 was more like, "Please, go MT, you're doing far more damage than I do. And since you're here with Storm's Eye, I'm doing a little more damage than you do if I OT, let's crush numbers together"
Now, that WAR has Deliverance and DRK is there, they say to us "Sorry, not good enough has an OT"

The Quote Wars have begun again!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Oh please, it's not like PLD does 0 DPS and WAR does 3500.

PLD does 650~750 DPS while tanking. If you do less than that, reconfigure how you approach the encounter.

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I didn't say they're powerless, and this isn't about me. It's about the system as it is now. And since PLD defensive effectiveness is pretty much similar to WAR and DRK if not just worse even mildly, nobody will pick them in a number crunching game especially if their defenses aren't significantly better than the tanks who CAN do significantly more damage than them. That's how the game works, and no amount of skill is going to change being underpowered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lone-wolfe-02

Hallowed ground. while this ability stays as it is you have no right to complain about pld being weak.

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I have every right to complain about anything I'd like to complain about.

Further, one ability doesn't make up for the differences between the tanks. Two of them do considerably more DPS and can tank the same fights without problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Rage of Halone
12% of damage the target does is immediately healed by the Paladin. This generates a little enmity.
(This generates aggro for the paladin. It also does not prevent one-shots.)

Delirium
5% of target's damage done is prevented and reflected back to the caster.

Storm's Path
Same

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Fixed, easy. Now everyone has their own version of Storm's Path.

The "problem" right now with Path vs Delirium vs RoH is that they are roughly equal.

Let's say Path reduces 10% damage from every damage type, RoH reduces 10% damage from every physical damage type, and Delirium reduces 10% damage from every magical damage type.

You would always want WAR in your party, because you will always be + on damage reduction over DRK + PLD. DRK + PLD will reduce a flat 10% damage from everything the boss has, which is literally just Path. But when you combine Path with Delirium, now you're looking at 10% damage reduction overall PLUS 10% extra damage reduction from magical damage.

So, I have a solution but it's not without it's flaws. Bring Path down to 5% or bring Delirium/RoH up to 15%. Let's assume we're bringing Path down to 5%, basically what you're looking at now is Delirium + RoH being their current 10% decrease of overall damage. But if you bring PLD + WAR you're now looking at a 15% decrease to physical damage and a 5% decrease to magical damage. Same with DRK + WAR.

The flaws with this, at least as far as I can tell, are:

1. PLD + DRK would reduce the most overall damage, but WAR would still be best for any fight where one damage source is focused over the other. A4S is an example where PLD + DRK would shine, but then you've got fights like A1S where double DRK would be optimal, or A3S where PLD + WAR would be optimal.

2. WAR + WAR would be the worst defensive comp imaginable. But I guess it would make up for it with high DPS? I dunno.

What I've learned from thinking about this, though, is that Path/Delirium/RoH balance is very finicky. It's like Jenga or something. However, I don't think Path is actually the real problem right now - while Path is great, it isn't what's stopping DRK + PLD groups from existing. The issue is the lack of a slashing debuff, which is why I think giving all the tanks Eye would allow for DRK + PLD to exist without feeling severely underpowered compared to the other comps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Fixed, easy. Now everyone has their own version of Storm's Path.

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I wish they would do that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

New Class Solution

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Why not make a class like "Red Mage" Or "Samurai (dps)" with a Slashing Debuff.

You should not nerf a class just because its more effective. You should buff the other classes to be unique themselves.

Warriors are a fine class. They don't need no shave or nerf. Paladin and Dark Knight just need buffs and a DPS class needs a slashing debuff.

A Samurai with a Katana sounds like the perfect Candidate.