Loot system suggestions, thoughts, and your opinion!

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

what about content gated for ilvl though. leveling doesnt get you there. Neither does the ninja who looks pretty.

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I'm not sure I understand your point in relation to my post, could you expound on what you mean?

glamour is not a NEED ..just like ponies.. we want them and we may run 100 times to get them, but they never effect your progress in the game. you will never get stuck in a dungeon or primal just because you dont have the right glamour, but you sure will stuck if you are not geared. thats the point we are trying to make.
and thats why in my suggestion I stated that it should be based on your LEVEL not ITEM LEVEL so the game can detect if you really need the upgrade or not.

Just one major problem with this, and one of the main reasons something like this hasn't been implemented in any MMO ever.

Packet size and the amount of data that needs to moved between clients and server.

But theres a simpler solution (no there is no such thing as "need abuse" everyone who puts the effort in has the same right to roll on whatever they want to. If they are on the job and can roll need, rolling need has nothing to do with any form of imaginary abuse. If they roll need for handing in to the GC for points, thats their perogative, also as counter. Relic quest needed a bucket load of GC seals so those items they handed in progressed their relic, thus raised their ILV when completed. Only thing you can label as "need abuse" is when the parameters are set before witha premade and someone breaks it and then you can report them.

Run the content with friends, or with a PF party with set allocated loot.

Nope won't happen here's why people will just join a duty as the minimum item level there by making the duty's (gawd I f???Ing hate duty finder) take much longer than they should. Also from your suggestion if no one has a job that can or is close to making use of it it would just get dropped completely.

I will now bring a level 1 all-class set of gear that I can slap on before fights in order to maximize my NEED rolls, 10/10 game design.

I took the first coil caster pants from a player who actually needed them. On my 140th t4 run. Having lost the roll on four of them prior.

I ran t2 120 times for the chest.

Your +1 means as much to me as my glamour means to you, so roll.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

The proposed systems in this thread probably are more fair, yes, but only for one type of player. The system in place now is fair toward all play styles.

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You get it. How is someone whos endgame is glamor less important? Only reason you need higher Ilvl is if you are needing it to access harder gated content. But still it does not give anyone a god given right to first dibs over someone whos playstyle is different than your own.

Eveyone needs on stuff they can for their own reasons, no ones is more important than anothers when you can EASILY avoid the disapointment of having to roll against other players by running content with friends that drops the gear you want.

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Originally Posted by Fahad

glamour is not a NEED ..just like ponies.. we want them and we may run 100 times to get them, but they never effect your progress in the game. you will never get stuck in a dungeon or primal just because you dont have the right glamour, but you sure will stuck if you are not geared. thats the point we are trying to make.
and thats why in my suggestion I stated that it should be based on your LEVEL not ITEM LEVEL so the game can detect if you really need the upgrade or not.

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sure they do its called crafted gear when they leveling and tomestone gear at 60.


Also your whole point in that people will be stuck if their gear isn't on par to the content while leveling that's why in heavensward you get HQ gear from main quest Yoshi said they did this so people wouldn't get stuck on this kind of thing.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Just one major problem with this, and one of the main reasons something like this hasn't been implemented in any MMO ever.

Packet size and the amount of data that needs to moved between clients and server.

But theres a simpler solution (no there is no such thing as "need abuse" everyone who puts the effort in has the same right to roll on whatever they want to. If they are on the job and can roll need, rolling need has nothing to do with any form of imaginary abuse.

Run the content with friends, or with a PF party with set allocated loot.

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I'm with you that the current system works, i did say so in my OP and we are just talking here. but what's the point of DF if every problem is going to be solved with "play with friends"
you may do, but I don't have friends that are willing to grind a dungeon so my highness can get a loot. everyone is busy with their own.
if everything is going to be solved with play with friends then there is no reason for vote kick or loot roll in the first place if to get the item i should play with friends.
the main reason i suggested the alternatives is to prevent such scenarios like: Im level 60 BRD doing Low level roulette and I happen to be with another BRD who is level 30 in a level 30 dungeon, and a BRD drop happens, i shouldn't be able to click NEED on it and by rng I get it, because the other BRD really needs it to upgrade his stats, while im just gonna sell it, or trade it for gc.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

sure they do its called crafted gear when they leveling and tomestone gear at 60.


Also your whole point in that people will be stuck if their gear isn't on par to the content while leveling that's why in heavensward you get HQ gear from main quest Yoshi said they did this so people wouldn't get stuck on this kind of thing.

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isn't that proofs my point that roll system need to be in favor of people who actually need the item for upgrade rather than glamour?
if yoshi saw the need to input HQ items in the game wasn't it because people weren't able to get gear in dungeons?

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Originally Posted by NolLacnala

I will now bring a level 1 all-class set of gear that I can slap on before fights in order to maximize my NEED rolls, 10/10 game design.

I took the first coil caster pants from a player who actually needed them. On my 140th t4 run. Having lost the roll on four of them prior.

I ran t2 120 times for the chest.

Your +1 means as much to me as my glamour means to you, so roll.

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that's why i suggested the roll system should be based on YOUR LEVEL not YOUR CURRENT ITEM LEVEL

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Originally Posted by Fahad

the main reason i suggested the alternatives is to prevent such scenarios like: Im level 60 BRD doing Low level roulette and I happen to be with another BRD who is level 30 in

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That scenario is just as likely to go another way; with the level 60 bard having been trying for months to get a low level piece of gear for glamour (for example, the Brayflox longstop sets are hot commodities) with no success and they see it drop with a lower level bard present. The low level bard gets it and replaces it days later, then converts it into materia to sell, all while the high level bard is still running dungeons trying to get that one item that's eluded him.

These proposed changes would make it easier for one type of player, at the expense of another type. The system we have now offers both an equal footing to win the gear they're after, for whatever reasons they're after it.

One other point:
If i ran a dungeon/raid 50+ times for a piece of gear I want for glamour, and it finally drops, why should I just give it up to the random person who needs it for an upgrade whom i will likely never see again anyways?

wow... just unequip your gears then you can NEED the drops? ^^; ??

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Originally Posted by Fahad

isn't that proofs my point that roll system need to be in favor of people who actually need the item for upgrade rather than glamour?
if yoshi saw the need to input HQ items in the game wasn't it because people weren't able to get gear in dungeons?

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Or you know, the level 30 BRD you said in you scenario could politely ask the lvl 60 BRD if they mind passing as they need for an upgrade.

Also, those who take for glamor end up using for longer than those who take as a levelling upgrade ;)

lol I find us circling around the same issue over and over. I guess I'll never see glamour and desynth as a "NEED" but obviously many players do.

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Originally Posted by Fahad

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SUGGESTION 1: This one is easiest to apply in my opinion and less complex.
Primary--->NEED conditions: Item's class/job must match current player's class/job AND required level to use the item must be no more than 5 levels below current level.
Secondary--->GREEDconditions: anything else
PASS
this way, the system reduces NEED abuse and give others a higher chance at the item.
E.X: level 35 PGL CANNOT NEED on PGL items level 29 and below.
...

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If a new PGL spent an afternoon level up to lv21 by fate, then he runs Sastasha and he will not be able to NEED anything,
I have seen many new players at this level do not have full set gears better than Sastasha drops.
Or when he is Lv35, he run Haukke Manor, he can't need anything even the loot really is an upgraded for him. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

If a new PGL spent an afternoon level up to lv21 by fate, then he runs Sastasha and he will not be able to NEED anything,
I have seen many new players at this level do not have full set gears better than Sastasha drops.
Or when he is Lv35, he run Haukke Manor, he can't need anything even the loot really is an upgraded for him. ^^;

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That is something I haven't thought about, thanks for bringing it up!
but one would argue that there are shops that sells items that can bring the fate grinder up to speed.

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Originally Posted by Fahad

That is something I haven't thought about, thanks for bringing it up!
but one would argue that there are shops that sells items that can bring the fate grinder up to speed.

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I understand that it is very depressing when a new players lose every upgrade drops to someone equipping better gears.
For example, my new NIN frd running CT/ST and lose most roll on his role drops to another player who has better gears equipped.
I think your suggestion cannot help this player as they are both Lv50, so we cannot compare thier LV vs iLV of the drop.
And it doesn't work if we compare current quipment because ppl can change gears (even unequip) inside the content.

However, if removing the job Need priority, this new player will have to Need vs everyone but not only vs another player can Need it.
So, IMO the original roll system is not perfect but still has the least conflicts...
Not sure how about the new added features but they don't affect pug DF so I think they are not applicable here.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

So make it that you can only NEED on stuff that's above the highest iLvl in your possession that you can use.
If you are going for glamour, you should have the same chance on getting it as everyone else = GREED.

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Cool, looks like I'm throwing my gear onto my retainer and going in minimum level NQ junk to the dungeon then. I'm sure everyone will love seeing that! But no seriously, if someone asks me nicely to pass on a drop because they need it for an upgrade on a secondary class or even their primary class, I'm happy to do that as long as it isn't an upgrade for me too. If they're rude about it, screw em. I'll take it if at all possible. I always roll on every drop in 50+ dungeons to turn them in for grand company seals (I go through an unbelievable amount of ventures).

I honestly don't see how wanting the gear for glamour/gc turn in is any different than wanting it for your alt class. *shrug* Most of the gear in the dungeons gets outgrown within a few levels anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Cool, looks like I'm throwing my gear onto my retainer and going in minimum level NQ junk to the dungeon then.

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You might wanna think about the words "in your possession". Hint: It would include retainers.

I am all for wanting gear for glamour and gc turn ins, I am against people being able to roll NEED on it in those situations, since their WANT of the item for these reasons is IMO worth the same as my WANT of the item for my alt/alt glamour/turn-in.
AND THAT'S THE POINT! It's the same! Yet you get to NEED on it because you are on the given class, while someone else is not.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

You might wanna think about the words "in your possession". Hint: It would include retainers.

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So you want to increase the data transfer between client and server massively while the system checks every retainer on every player in the instance.

Just no. The delays would be insufferable. Hence the reason it has never been done. on any MMO ever.

If you aren't on the given class/job that can need on it, then you don't need it. If you want the item that badly then run the content as the job that can need on it. If the job you want it for isn't at the level to runm the content, then you odnt NEED it, because you can't equip it. Get the job to the level for the content, then run it.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

So you want to increase the data transfer between client and server massively while the system checks every retainer on every player in the instance.

Just no. The delays would be insufferable. Hence the reason it has never been done. on any MMO ever.

If you aren't on the given class/job that can need on it, then you don't need it. If you want the item that badly then run the content as the job that can need on it. If the job you want it for isn't at the level to runm the content, then you odnt NEED it, because you can't equip it. Get the job to the level for the content, then run it.

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I see you have never done any sort of coding.
All this needs is a few entries: Highest LNC Arm = iX, Highest ARC Arm = iY, etc. That is updated when you acquire an item, or throw the highest one away. No need to recheck it every single time.

And ONCE AGAIN! I DO NOT WANT TO NEED ON ALT EQUIP! I just want this to be fair = everyone who doesn't ACTUALLY NEED IT (= it's not an upgrade for them) WILL GREED ON IT!
How is this so fucking hard to understand?!

disagree with this idea.

If you're there in the dungoun working with everyone else as part of a team, there is no reason you should not be allowed to Need regardless of it's intended use - Seals, Glamor, or Upgrade. The simple fact of the matter is, the "Need" button is merely implemented in a way that gives people who go as the assigned job the highest chance of obtaining it. It is not abuse of the roll to use it for seals, nor is it 'unfair' if Healer A who wants to use it for healing has to compete on even ground with Healer B Who wants to use it because it's pretty.

This idea is the very definition of Entitlement, a word I don't often throw around. It's a case of "Well I should get it because -I- will actually use it", while completely ignoring everyone elses potential use for the item and difference of playstyle.

If you want something like this, please run a lootmaster party and put "Only ilevel upgrades will be allowed to lot need on." Problem solved.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

*snip*

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1) The amount of data required for the "highest ilvl in given slot" is SUPER SMALL, AND only needs to update in VERY specific situations, not every 15s like our inventory is. So no, it would not add noticeable server stress and it would DEFINITELY not add DELAY, because that's NOT how delay works...

2) It's NOT about me losing a roll! It's about making it fair. You ONLY need gear when it's an upgrade for your current job! In every other situation (desynth, glamour, alts, etc) you just want it, and thus you should GREED on it. It levels the playing field, it's taking away advantage from players that don't need the advantage.

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

You're suggestions would work great if everyone's play style was focused around the ilevel of an item, however to many (like myself) most item's value comes from its use for glamouring. Still other players use gear for collecting or desynthing. Your suggestions make it unfair for anyone who is seeking gear for any reason other than an ilevel boost, but the system the game has now keeps it fair for everyone. I prefer the system as it is now.

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glamour is something you want not something you NEED

should be rolled for as greed imo

too hard to enforce without causing unfair exceptions though...

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

2) It's NOT about me losing a roll! It's about making it fair. You ONLY need gear when it's an upgrade for your current job! In every other situation (desynth, glamour, alts, etc) you just want it, and thus you should GREED on it. It levels the playing field, it's taking away advantage from players that don't need the advantage.

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Player A is level 32 BLM. He needs EXP to get up to his next quest and to continue his story advancement. Knowing that dungouns are good exp and a fun way to learn the class as well as a shot at gear he can use, he que's for Brayflox. He gets a que with Player B.
Player B is level 50 BLM And recently saw people wearing the Battlemage attire. He likes the way it looks and wants to glamor it over his end-game gear, which he honestly can't stand the design of. He que's for Brayflox. He gets a que with Player A.


By your system:
Player A gets:
Sole lotting rights on items.
EXP from the dungoun
an extra DPS to help him clear the dungoun - or in a more extreme circumstance, an extra /HEALER/ as they can also lot on the gear, a much more vital role.

Player B gets:
Absolutely nothing. He gets to waste 30 minutes of his time helping someone when his whole reason to que in was to try and get item drops.

Under the current system:
Player A gets EXP as well as people from the que to join him.
Player B gets a shot at gear as well as gets to help out a fresher player.

Do you see the issue with your system? Do you see the problem with trying to lock people out of items? There might not be an immediate que for them. Heck, tank/healers might not que specifically for that one (my freinds and I did for a time) and just choose to do it unsynched instead of giving you the opportunity at that potential que.

It's a give-and-take. Everyone goes there seeking something. Everyone deserves an equal opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

It's a give-and-take. Everyone goes there seeking something. Everyone deserves an equal opportunity.

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That's the thing, the current system is NOT an equal opportunity.

If the item is a clear upgrade for the lower level player, then he clearly needs it more than the higher level player.
If the item is not an upgrade for the lower level player, then they should bot have the same chance on getting the item.

Yes, that's also not perfectly fair, the only fair system would be "All Greed", but it's more fair than the current system.

Why everyone have to roll on the SAME?
What if every players gets loot?
Boss chest = 6 pieces possible, each player rolls a dice and gets the gear the dice is showing.
to stop adding RNG on top of an other RNG makes it insta getting is wrong thought...

Edit:
Player 1 rolls a 2 -> getting gear from slot 2
Player 2 rolls a 5 -> getting gear from slot 5
Player 3 rolls a 2 -> getting gear from slot 2
Player 4 rolls a 4 -> getting gear from slot 4

I am getting sick of that timesink, when did SE stop making games and is focusing only on timesink?

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

That's the thing, the current system is NOT an equal opportunity.

If the item is a clear upgrade for the lower level player, then he clearly needs it more than the higher level player.
If the item is not an upgrade for the lower level player, then they should bot have the same chance on getting the item.

Yes, that's also not perfectly fair, the only fair system would be "All Greed", but it's more fair than the current system.

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Do you understand the definition of equal?

You're saying you want to give UNEQUAL opportunity to people 'because they need it for upgrade.' That's 110% UNEQUAL. You are not even able to try and spin this any other way - because literally, you are denying one person a fair chance when they went there seeking the same item.

You are trying to say its hould be made uneven 'because someone needs it /more/', you're not being objective - you're lookign at it subjectively as a player with a lower item level because you feel your need overwrites the wishes and desires of everyone else.


The system right now is equal. The only inequality exists in cross-class, I.e. someone went BLM and wants to lot on tank stuff. And you know what? That's fine to me too, because if you want an item for your other class... GO AS THAT CLASS.

SEriously, I've never seen anyone try so hard to defend inequality. Objectively, this system is as fair as it gets.

This topic comes up over and over and over again on the forums. Nothing new here.

Believe it or not, people want gear drops for more than equipping their characters. If you want a piece for a specific job, then queue as that job so you can need. If you think you should be allowed to greed for that drop without competition from a need that doesn't match your goals while you queue as tank for faster fill, then you are just trying to game the system yourself.

Gear drops can be used for equipping, for glamour or for GC turn ins. If the system allows me to need, I will need every drop that falls. I use the gear for GC turn ins which I turn into ventures and cordials, which I most definitely need for MY game. Your game may be different.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

1) The amount of data required for the "highest ilvl in given slot" is SUPER SMALL, AND only needs to update in VERY specific situations, not every 15s like our inventory is. So no, it would not add noticeable server stress and it would DEFINITELY not add DELAY, because that's NOT how delay works...

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You forgot the part of checking every item slot in every retainer too.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

2) It's NOT about me losing a roll! It's about making it fair. You ONLY need gear when it's an upgrade for your current job! In every other situation (desynth, glamour, alts, etc) you just want it, and thus you should GREED on it. It levels the playing field, it's taking away advantage from players that don't need the advantage.

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It is already fair for everyone, if you are on the correct job, you can need it. If you aren't you can greed it.

Just because Glamor isn't "your" endgame, doesn't mean that others cannot have a different playstyle to yours and to them glamor is more important and the do need it. Present system is fair for all playstyles, your idea puts one playstyle above all others. Which is the definition of unfair.

But, it will never get implemented so your screaming and shouting at people that disagree with you is pointless, just like your idea :)

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

You forgot the part of checking every item slot in every retainer too.

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That's the thing, you don't need to! You only change this number when the player gets an upgrade for the slot.
The only possible time where you would have to check the retainers' inventory is when the player discards or sells his highest ilvl item for the given slot/job. Which is an incredibly rare occurrence and doesn't happen during times where you need a fast response from the server anyways.

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It is already fair for everyone, if you are on the correct job, you can need it. If you aren't you can greed it.

Just because Glamor isn't "your" endgame, doesn't mean that others cannot have a different playstyle to yours and to them glamor is more important and the do need it. Present system is fair for all playstyles, your idea puts one playstyle above all others. Which is the definition of unfair.

But, it will never get implemented so your screaming and shouting at people that disagree with you is pointless, just like your idea :)

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So explain to me:
How is your glamour more valuable than my glamour for an alt (or even for my main but I get it while running the dungeon with my alt)?
How is your glamour more valuable than my upgrade for an alt?
How is your glamour more valuable than my desynth?
How is your glamour more valuable than my GC seals?
How is your glamour more valuable than my glamour if I want to get a caster robe for my DoW glam?

IMO it's not, all these cases have the SAME value. Hence why they should have the same chance of acquirement.


As for your "don't complaing, it won't change": If we don't complain, there is a 100% chance it won't change. Us complaining makes this chance lower, be it by 10%, 1% or 0.1%, it's still worth it.
If people wouldn't have complained during 1.x, this game would be DEAD by now.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

So explain to me:
How is your glamour more valuable than my glamour for an alt (or even for my main but I get it while running the dungeon with my alt)?
How is your glamour more valuable than my upgrade for an alt?
How is your glamour more valuable than my desynth?
How is your glamour more valuable than my GC seals?
How is your glamour more valuable than my glamour if I want to get a caster robe for my DoW glam?

IMO it's not, all these cases have the SAME value. Hence why they should have the same chance of acquirement.

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You're absolutely right! All of these are equal and that is what the system does now. You can greed on anything. If you want to focus on a particular job for the drops, then go as that job. Same as everyone else.

You also have another option if the existing system seems so brutally unfair to you. Use PF and set it to greed only. I'm sure people will flock to join that share your view of the unfairness of the normal rule.

The existing method is perfect. No need for change. Move along, nothing to see here.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

So explain to me:
How is your glamour more valuable than my glamour for an alt (or even for my main but I get it while running the dungeon with my alt)?
How is your glamour more valuable than my upgrade for an alt?
How is your glamour more valuable than my desynth?
How is your glamour more valuable than my GC seals?
How is your glamour more valuable than my glamour if I want to get a caster robe for my DoW glam?

IMO it's not, all these cases have the SAME value. Hence why they should have the same chance of acquirement.

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No one ever said it is, but.


If you want glamor for an alt (or even for your main job but you get it while running the dungoun with your alt) - you should go as the job.
If you want glamor to upgrade your alt - you should go as the job.
[If you want the item for desynth - you should go as the job.
If you want the item for GC Seals - you should go as the job.
If you want to get a caster robe for your DoW glam (Which let's be fair is only pre-50 dungouns, post-50 gear you can't cross-glam like that) - You should go as the job.

So you're right. No one's denying you the opportunity to do any of these. You have the same value as anyone else.

but you need to go as the job to be entitled to that right.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

You're absolutely right! All of these are equal and that is what the system does now. You can greed on anything. If you want to focus on a particular job for the drops, then go as that job. Same as everyone else.

The existing method is perfect. No need for change. Move along, nothing to see here.

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That's the thing. I don't focus on it, and even if I did, I also run Leveling roulette with my alt, but it drops randomly.

And guess what most people also don't focus on the drops, they just need because they CAN, and that's the biggest problem.

So if you're not focusing, then you have no specific goal in mind. Nonspecific drops are good for GC turn ins, etc. You will have the same chance as everyone if you need on whatever you can and greed on the rest. If everyone else does the same, then it's all fair - the chances of job specific drops are equal so the chances of getting a need are equal over the long run.

I see two sentences that friends from the opposite opinion keep mentioning that kinda contradict each other :
"The current system gives everyone a fair chance"
and "I'll need on everything that drops" .
That's not what the system is for, that's exploiting a fair system, which is why I posted the suggestions. I also want to need on everything, I also want GC seals, I also want desynth. and since they all have the same value to YOU and ME since we are turning them to GC or breaking them anyways, why do YOU have the need ability and I don't.

which brings me again to one of my suggestions:
Priority: NEED if it's an upgrade for your current class---> it will prevent YOU from just needing on anything just because you match the class
Secondary: ALT NEED if its an upgrade for your ALT----> that's the added one that will prevent ME from just greeding on everything just because the button is there.
Tertiary: GREED: now that we took care of people who need it for an upgrade for current class and the people who need it for an upgrade for their alt class , all that's left are YOU and ME who want it for GC, glamour, desynth...etc, REGARDLESS of our class WE EQUALLY want it, so we should have same chance greeding on it.

THAT'S the point that I am trying to make, if we are BOTH not wanting the gear for an upgrade, then why do you get priority over me just because you match the class of the item? let's address the needs of people who really want an upgrade first, if those people are not present, then we have an equal chance you and me.

and can we please stop the "run pf if you really need that item" argument? I can use this argument for everything. If the current system is as my suggestion, and someone posted that they are tired of not getting the glamour piece because players who need it for upgrade always get it, I'm sure someone will reply and say "run pf if you really need that item".