Dark Knight, or Paladin?

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

As above, the DRK loses more damage by doing his threat combo than the PLD does when he uses RoH instead of RA. The RA combo also generates more threat than the DRK's siphon combos (including Darkside and the extra damage that siphon's mana drain will give you). Circle of scorn also has a threat modifier.

I fail to see how a PLD in Sword Oath is any worse off on threat generation than a DRK with Grit off.

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Because a single DA + Power slash combo or w/e it is called will throw DRK far ahead in comparison to a PLD's RoH. So they only need to do it 1-3 times in comparison to PLD whom would have to continue to use RoH through out the entire fight.

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Originally Posted by Seku

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Your character looks so pissed off lmao

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Originally Posted by Seku

Because a single DA + Power slash combo or w/e it is called will throw DRK far ahead in comparison to a PLD's RoH. So they only need to do it 1-3 times in comparison to PLD whom would have to continue to use RoH through out the entire fight.

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But the DRK loses so much more than the PLD doing a DA + Power slash combo. For a DRK, excess mana will be spent on DA + SE. The effect of this is to boost their siphon combo finisher from 280 (DL) to 400 (DA+SE). So 1 DA's worth of mana is worth about 120 potency.

By using the power slash combo, the DRK is not generating mana via siphon, which is 1/2 of a DA. So by using the PS combo, they're losing about 60 potency worth of damage. By buffing PS with DA, they're losing another 120 potency worth of damage. The PS combo is 650 total potency, while the DL potency is 680 total potency, another loss of 30 potency. So, by using DA + PS combo to secure threat, they are losing 210 (60+120+30) potency of damage that they would otherwise get if they were using their siphon combos. In addition, this is all under the effect of Darkside, so you have to multiply the effects by 115%, which means the loss is closer to 242 potency.

When a PLD does RoH instead of RA, he just loses 80 potency, or 88 potency if you include the average damage boost provided by FoF. This means that for every DA + PS combo the DRK does, they're losing a little less than 3x the potency of a PLD who uses RoH instead of RA.

If you're throwing out 3x RoH for every DRK's DA + Power slash combo, I think the PLD will come out ahead in terms of threat generated.

also power slash gets darkside damage bonus always and is 150/220/300 potency as opposed to paladin's 150/200/260 combo which only gets FoF bonus 33% of the time (and you have to sacrifice fitting in a second goring blade if you chose to open with it).

also circle of scron's aggro modifier combined with rage of halone (4400 + 900 = 5300) still can't match power slash dark arts + salted earth (6315 + 1207 = 7522 potency).

it's a pretty blatantly worse situation.

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Originally Posted by nyttyn

also power slash gets darkside damage bonus always and is 150/220/300 potency as opposed to paladin's 150/200/260 combo which only gets FoF bonus 33% of the time (and you have to sacrifice fitting in a second goring blade if you chose to open with it).

also circle of scron's aggro modifier combined with rage of halone (4400 + 900 = 5300) still can't match power slash dark arts + salted earth (6315 + 1207 = 7522 potency).

it's a pretty blatantly worse situation.

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Sort of. You're only looking at that action alone and not the effects beyond that one combo. Sword Oath's extra potency keeps going while you're using RoH. DRK's mana regen goes negative while they're doing a PS combo, and it goes very heavily negative with DA + PS. For the DRK, this means losing out on damage from extra DA + SE later. For the PLD that does a RoH combo over a RA combo, they only lose the 80 potency up front. It doesn't cause any further loss of damage after the fact.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

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ok seeing as how according to both your statements and your lodestone profile you haven't played paladin @ sixty, you clearly don't realize the fatal flaw with your argument: it's pretty much impossible to hold aggro in sword oats without spamming rage of halone a plethora of times per encounter.

dark knight can get away with doing just one or two dark arts power slash combos for the entire fight (i've healed dark knights, i've seen them do it with monks and dragoons in the party), as a paladin main tank and one who's healed multiple paladins i can tell you for a fact that it's incredibly difficult to hold aggro in sword oats without using rage of halone at least 5 times in a boss fight, if not more depending on how competent the DPS in my party is.

and i'm in full str accessories with a i180 weapon and a bit of alex stuff. and I can't hold aggro against good i170 DPS without halone spam if im in sword oats.

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Originally Posted by nyttyn

it's incredibly difficult to hold aggro in sword oats without using rage of halone at least 5 times in a boss fight, if not more depending on how competent the DPS in my party is.

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You don't have to play a PLD at 60 to know the potency of attacks.

I think you misunderstand my argument. What I'm saying is that if a PLD needs to do RoH 6 times and a DRK only needs to do DA + PS twice to hold agro outside of tank stance, then that's fair because they lose about the same amount of damage in both circumstances.

5 times isn't close. I pretty much to ride halone with raid lvl DPS or a competent DPSing war.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

5 times isn't close. I pretty much to ride halone with raid lvl DPS or a competent DPSing war.

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Could a DRK in the same situation get away with just 2 power slash combos if they're not using Grit?

Do you guys really like to tank in dps stance for some reason?

The damage intake is noticeably higher. I do it for bosses that don't even really hit for anything, so that a single renew keeps me up (notably, ex roulette, a1), but otherwise it just isn't really worth the hassle.

All else being equal, unless the healer can just afk and heal you up, doing 20% more of your damage isn't really worth freeing up 20% more healer GCDs.

At 60 PLD I have no trouble in sword oath...because I RoH every 3 combos, because...I keep up the debuff. Do you guys really just ignore everything but dps here?

As for DRK, I typically open with 2xDA > PS while in grit, then turn it off and then am free to use mp rotation from then onwards.

All this DPS stance talk going on here, you guys do realize DRK does NOT have a DPS stance, right?

Darkside is DRK's version of Maim/FoF. Not a DPS stance by ANY means. For DRK it is simply Grit, or no Grit.

PLD has the most potent of the tanks' DPS stances. Sword Oath gives roughly 10~15% DPS increase depending on the weapon. Deliverance is 5% only plus access to their most potent attacks. DRK has no DPS stance.

Also this BS with "doing 20% more of your damage isn't worth freeing up 20% more healer GCDs" needs to stop. A tank going from DPS stance to tank stance loses MORE than 20% DPS. PLD going from SwO to ShO loses auto attack bonus AND a suffers a 20% negative. WAR loses the 5% bonus from deliverance, access to Fell Cleave AND goes 25% negative from base. DRK loses access to Blood Weapon + the 20% negative. DRK has the least to lose here since they have no DPS stance.

The difference between a tank trying to maximize their DPS and a tank not trying at all can be as massive as 500 DPS. I've seen tanks do as low as 217 DPS (still holding threat, probably only doing RoH combo) which is NOTHING compared to a non-tank-stance tank doing over 800. I'm yet to meet a healer even reach 400 DPS while still managing to keep the party alive.

If a PLD can pull 700 DPS, he is set to stay ahead of the 1200 DPS DRG/MNK/NIN in threat without heavily spamming RoH. So tanking is SwO is not an impossibility.

The PLD princesses need to stop complaining about their class. The only thing PLD is really behind in is AoE DPS, but that doesn't matter since their AoE enmity generation, while below other tanks, is far ahead of any DPS.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I choose you math

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You're under estimating DRK's ability to regen MP in raid's. Being out of tank stance gives them blood weapon (basically makes every weapon skill a mini Siphion blade) and Carve and spit. MP is really a non issue. You'll use RoH more than 9 times in a fight as a pld, assuming SWO, unless you've got a ninja in there aiding you build enmity.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Do you guys really just ignore everything but dps here

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When going for max efficiency, yes. I wouldn't suggest normal groups or the normal tanks to try to DPS stance their way through content, as it requires a good group, one you will more than likely not find in a Pug. But having a good group and people actually invested into their jobs allows tanks to turn themselves into DPS and burn down bosses extremely quick. It's actually why I'm not really sweating PLD's position right now, as for the average group (the ones that will make mistakes and not play perfectly) it's probably the best choice as one of the two tanks. As for the very tip top everyone playing like a robot, not so much.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Could a DRK in the same situation get away with just 2 power slash combos if they're not using Grit?

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I have all three tanks at i188 (ravanna weapons on each) and yes. On dark I can open with grit and all my off cooldowns and three power slashes then turn off grit for the rest of the encounter and just use delirium and soul eater. Same as a war; once I have threat I can leave Defiance no problem. Paladin? Nope. Doing a1 Savage and my dps will creep steadily despite me keeping up the roh debuffs, eventually leading me to go back to shield oath and spamming roh to regain a lead (maiming goring of course). I started this xpac as a paladin main but I've swapped back to war. My Co tank did the same and is now a dark knight and neither of us could be happier. Paladin right now feels like the 1.0 paladin ;full of issues and misunderstanding from SE.

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Originally Posted by Seku

It's probably the best choice as one of the two tanks. As for the very tip top everyone playing like a robot, not so much.

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It's kind of a clunky mess at the moment which is sad given how promising it looked at first. The move to magic and unblockable busters coupled with the terrible threat scaling and intense dps checks makes them undesirable. Add in their heal being both slow as hell and negating your ability to block or parry marks most of their tools pretty disappointing for main tanking.

I feel even for a bad or normal group your better off just brining war or dark. They deal with it current content better while speeding up the fight which, if your group is failing, will reduce the duration comedy of errors better than the few paladin tricks will offset larger mistakes (save for hallowed. All praise hallowed... The reason this class is still kind of relevant).

I take back what I sad after a few parse runs PLD is worthless over 130+ less dps than a dark that's like 200 dps less than a war so why take a pld?

Wow, okay... let's back up here get some things clear.



First, when it comes to damage, the tank classes are not going to be on par with the DPS not because of damage bonuses or damage boosts through buffs, but through basic stats. As a whole, tanks have less base strength than the primary DPS classes and this largely the main reason why tanks will always be behind. Other factors such as passive/innate damage boosts through poisons, greased lightning, heavy thrust and weapon skill potencies are additional factors, but they're secondary compared to the core stats.

Now, believe it or not, all tank classes basically get the same level damage boosts. In fact, they get damage boosts on par with those of the DPS classes (about 30 to 40%). It's not an overt thing and it pretty sneakily applied across a bevy of abilities and weapon skills. Yes, Darkside passively boosts damage by 15%, Dark Knights also get a haste with Blood Weapon, and Dark Arts, rounds out the damage boosts. All in all, the increases in damage are about the same as what a paladin gets.

Now again, believe it or not, Sword Oath was recently changed for this expansion. Instead of a passive 50% boost to auto-attack swings (which makes each auto-attack deal the same damage as a Fast Blade), Sword Oath now delivers a second auto-attack at 50% potency. It is hard to tell, but this is a some what indirect reduction in damage. Now, in order for a paladin to get the same damage as critical hit auto-attack, both attacks from Sword Oath must crit. The reason for this change seems simple; because of the way critical hit rate now boosts critical hit damage beyond the 50% applied, it can make Paladin attacks from Sword Oath too strong. There are other reasons for this change, but can be difficult to explain and I won't go into it here.

Now in terms of threat generation, the Paladin is not a slouch in this department. Contrary to what some people believe, Paladin and Dark Knight have the same number of threat generators. I will count them; Paladin has Savage Blade, Rage of Halone, Shield Swipe, Flash, Shield Toss and Circle of Scorn. The Dark Knight has Spinning Slash, Power Slash, Unmend, Abyssal Drain, Unleash and Salted Earth. The only difference here is how they operate in practice. All in all, neither one really has too much of and edge over the other, but Paladin is generally better at single target over Dark Knight.

Now, in terms of overall ability, both of them are good at what they do. Because of costs and risk associated with it, Dark Knights are likely to put out more damage overall than a paladin (at least in terms of burst) and because of a paladin's passive mitigation even when not exclusively tanking. This isn't really hard to dispute, one need only look at base potencies and can see that - even though dark knight and paladin can achieve the same overall damage boosts through abilities - dark knight overall hits harder, while the paladin hits much more frequently. You can look at Paladin and Dark Knight from a similar angle at Monks and Dragoons. Monks hit for less damage per hit, but more frequently. While Dragoons can hit much harder, but less frequently. The same differences are found in the Dark Knight and Paladin. This doesn't necessarily make one better than the other - otherwise we'd see monks more often than dragoons - but merely a difference in style.

Now, I do agree there are some issues on both sides of the fence. I do agree that Paladins could use more damaging area-effect attacks to help with AE tanking as Flash and Circle of Scorn don't feel like they're enough. I also agree that it is really not a good idea for Dark Knights to have defensive cooldowns that rely on chance factors in mitigating damage. If Dark Dance could more effectively play like Raw Intuition (without it being the ability) I think that would be good. Likewise, I think Clemency could use a faster cast-time and/or some kind of TP regeneration.

I don't see either one being flat out better than the other, but I do think they could use a few small tweaks here or there. Also, I'm not sure why people don't see how Savage Blade+Shield Swipe can generate the same enmity as Savage Blade+RoH. As a Paladin, you can move into Savage Blade+Shield Swipe and then Royal Authority and still bring in a lot hate. This really isn't an issue on single targets especially with current shield block frequencies (and if it is a problem, Bulwark). Rage of Halone shouldn't need to be used too frequently anymore unless you're really behind the gear curve.

now that post above means same buffs for dark knight who already is superior mt over pld.

a dark all possible buffs parsers over 200 same gears as a pld would and has more or less same survivability as pld except for hg but when I drg a1 savage dark mts + war ots far superior to pld mt + war ot due to the numbers alone...

Out of all the DRK suggestions people have posted, I never read anything on Plunge. I wish the distance can be increased to 20y like Shoulder Tackle. I feel 15y is just "enough". Don't get me wrong, I LOVE it. Too me it's so satisfying being knocked back and using Plunge immediately! :)

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

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Originally Posted by Dynza

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Sword Oath changed? It didn't. Only the tooltip. Sword Oath was an additional 50 potency on top of your auto attack and had its own crit chance since 2.0.

Salted Earth has no aggro multiplier. I checked and double checked. It doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

now that post above means same buffs for dark knight who already is superior mt over pld.

a dark all possible buffs parsers over 200 same gears as a pld would and has more or less same survivability as pld except for hg but when I drg a1 savage dark mts + war ots far superior to pld mt + war ot due to the numbers alone...

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Based on parses, best MTs are WAR. They have better mitigation than both other tanks and pull higher DPS than both other tanks. Except..... That's not how it works.

Each tank brings a perk to being the MT. All three tanks are EQUAL. Any DPS advantage/disadvantage is made up for in another department.

wrong in this like especially alex savage lower dps tanks have no place in farm groups so plds are worthless unless over geared like by 50 ilevels.

DPS checks matter and kick tanks if lower dps than an equivalent tank such as a pld who does 150+ less dps than an equivalent dark.

Im speaking simple end game where people would love to skip one min or two by taking the more dpsy classes.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

wrong in this like especially alex savage lower dps tanks have no place in farm groups so plds are worthless unless over geared like by 50 ilevels.

DPS checks matter and kick tanks if lower dps than an equivalent tank such as a pld who does 150+ less dps than an equivalent dark.

Im speaking simple end game where people would love to skip one min or two by taking the more dpsy classes.

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If a party blames their lack of DPS on the tank then they suck. Simple as that. Unless that tank is doing 200 DPS.

A PLD brings so much utility that the group as a whole brings the same DPS as any other MT.

but again end game farming take pld mt war ot then take 2 + minutes longer than a run that would go a smoothly for two mins less+ with drk+war.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie-Amber

but again end game farming take pld mt war ot then take 2 + minutes longer than a run that would go a smoothly for two mins less+ with drk+war.

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You must be joking if you really think that 100 DPS difference is going to make the fight last 2 minutes longer. Unless the fight originally lasts something like 2 hours.

If you think the difference between PLD and DRK DPS is more than 100 in an actual fight, then you've been playing with really bad PLDs (or you are one) that have no idea of how to DPS as PLD. PLDs can parse 800 DPS on a dummy. DRK can do like what, 910? that DPS was parsed back when Dark Arts had the bug where you could buff 2 abilities at the same time and that bug was abused. In a real fight PLD and DRK are REALLY close to one another with DRK having a slight advantage.

DRK toolkit is lacking behind PLD which requires more healing attention, look at Living Dead. PLD cooldowns are EASIER to plan around and a good healer can plan around the PLD's CDs and plan their DPS for maximum up-time.

With equally skilled PLD and DRK, at most, the difference in RAID DPS would be 100 DPS. If you think that's a reason enough to kick a PLD, then you are no better than those parties I'm calling bad. ANd if you think 7600 raid DPS is MUCH worse than 7700 raid DPS then you REALLY need to rethink the way you approach things in this game.

I don't see anyone parsing 800 dps as a pld on dummy, if they also keep up rage for the damage debuff (and likely, if they're mt, aggro issues).

No pot no food, on a dummy since PLD has literally no variation or skill in its rotation, does around 670-700 with sword oath at ilvl185 w/ hive weapon.

With shield oath its down to around 460-500.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I don't see anyone parsing 800 dps as a pld on dummy, if they also keep up rage for the damage debuff (and likely, if they're mt, aggro issues).

No pot no food, on a dummy since PLD has literally no variation or skill in its rotation, does around 670-700 with sword oath at ilvl185 w/ hive weapon.

With shield oath its down to around 460-500.

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No pot, no food, on a dummy, I do around 810+ with sword oath at ilvl188 with hive weapon. And that's without the slashing debuff.

Make sure you get 2 Goring Blade, 2 CoS, SW and 3 full RA combos during your FoF.

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Originally Posted by Freyyy

No pot, no food, on a dummy, I do around 810+ with sword oath at ilvl188 with hive weapon. And that's without the slashing debuff.

Make sure you get 2 Goring Blade, 2 CoS, SW and 3 full RA combos during your FoF.

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There is no way not to lol, unless you just afk. When are you stopping your parse? I'm just not seeing the damage people are saying. Either I am not parsing dots correctly or people are posting inflated parses.

Also please note I am talking about using RoH instead of RA, if you're keeping up the debuff, instead of double RA. I don't feel that is a representative dps number unless you are OT as a pld, which is just...the worst.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

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Doesn't matter how much you parse on a dummy. Dummies do not represent real fight and only succeed in inflating the DPS gap between classes.

Also sacrificing 10% STR debuff for extra DPS is NOT a bad trade-off. WAR lets Storm Path drop for Storm's Edge when main tanking and it does NOT kill them. Btw, Storm's Path is far more potent than 10% STR debuff.

If a DRK parses 100 DPS ahead of PLD on a dummy, then the gap is even less than 100 in real fights. If, for god knows whatever reason, 100 DPS is what you were missing to meet that enrage timer, you have bigger problems. Hint: It is NOT the tank!!

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Doesn't matter how much you parse on a dummy. Dummies do not represent real fight and only succeed in inflating the DPS gap between classes.

Also sacrificing 10% STR debuff for extra DPS is NOT a bad trade-off. WAR lets Storm Path drop for Storm's Edge when main tanking and it does NOT kill them. Btw, Storm's Path is far more potent than 10% STR debuff.


If a DRK parses 100 DPS ahead of PLD on a dummy, then the gap is even less than 100 in real fights. If, for god knows whatever reason, 100 DPS is what you were missing to meet that enrage timer, you have bigger problems. Hint: It is NOT the tank!!

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This is completely disingenuous. Anyone who has fought faust on release can tell you that even with 4 dps pulling max numbers the check is unattainable without tank DPS. The savage fights are outwardly designed to require large amounts of tank and even healer dps on release. the tanks NEED to be pulling 600+ at least if not more depending on party comp. The reality of hardcore content is that dps matter a lot and considering the rate of success of A1 savage clears across the board (or lack thereof,) it's pretty disingenuous to assume that tank dps shouldn't matter when it objectively does. If you can't pull at LEAST 600+ dps on your tank you have no place on a savage progression team at this point.

Also pound for pound when MTing, drk pulls ahead of paladin substantially as drk can use dps stance and tank stance at the same time while pallys cannot. This further exacerbates the damage differential between the two when compared as MT on fights. The difference between their dps is GREATER on fights than on dummies where they are not in tank stance.

Just fyi, if we take conservative estimates of all dps pulling 1000 dps, healers pulling 500 together, and tanks pulling 500 each, a tank pulling 100 more dps would get your kill...3 seconds faster.

Hmm...

At this point if even the damage debuffs tanks apply is meaningless, then we have a serious degenerate playstyle for tanks where they are mindless, positional-less and rotationless dps with survivability cooldowns.

I am not saying this playstyle is wrong given the content we currently have, but I am saying SE designed the game wrong if this is the way we should be playing.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Just fyi, if we take conservative estimates of all dps pulling 1000 dps, healers pulling 500 together, and tanks pulling 500 each, a tank pulling 100 more dps would get your kill...3 seconds faster.

Hmm...

At this point if even the damage debuffs tanks apply is meaningless, then we have a serious degenerate playstyle for tanks where they are mindless, positional-less and rotationless dps with survivability cooldowns.

I am not saying this playstyle is wrong given the content we currently have, but I am saying SE designed the game wrong if this is the way we should be playing.

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Using these estimates, 4 x 1000 (dps) + 500 (healers) + 500 x 2 (tanks) = 5500 dps. 5500 Dps is not enough to beat faust even with attacking after the soft enrage before he slaughters the team. The absolute lowest recorded that I've seen is 5630 and that was beating him with a dot tick as the last dps dropped dead.

"Faust has 968000 hp. Enrage is at 2:40, but it's soft. DPS needed for clear times:"

2:37 - 6166
2:38 - 6127
2:39 - 6088
2:40 - 6050
2:41 - 6012
2:42 - 5975
2:43 - 5939


The difference of 130 dps could be the difference between a clear and a wipe. Dps checks will only increase as you get further into the raid.

Even with each dps pulling a flat 1200 each (exceptional dps comparatively speaking most do not parse this high), you would still need another 1250 to beat the soft enrage. To claim that tank dps doesn't matter in these conditions is nonsense.

I never claimed that, merely that the potential differences between tanks probably isn't going to be the make or break, which I think is the gist of this thread, the picking of diff classes and how pld dps is lower than other classes.

My example was a conservative estimate that shows how little potential tank dps variance matters. Not as a realistic you need this much dps.

People have certainly cleared a1s with a pld...it is pretty weird to for example, have a raid team ask their tank to go drk or war because they can't make a dps check. That is not the onus of the tank.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I never claimed that, merely that the potential differences between tanks probably isn't going to be the make or break, which I think is the gist of this thread, the picking of diff classes and how pld dps is lower than other classes.

My example was a conservative estimate that shows how little potential tank dps variance matters. Not as a realistic you need this much dps.

People have certainly cleared a1s with a pld...it is pretty weird to for example, have a raid team ask their tank to go drk or war because they can't make a dps check. That is not the onus of the tank.

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Is it? Because Elysium just got a world first clear in a3 savage by changing their pally to a drk specifically to meet the a3 savage enrage after just getting a world first clear of a2 with a pally and warrior. In savage content TEAM DPS is what matters. The dps checks CANNOT be made by the dps alone and some potato tanks just taking hits at current gear levels. The team needs to produce an amount of dps greater than the max potential of just what the dps can put out. This means that tank dps is extremely relevant at this point in savage. As people gear up further this will become less of an issue and the checks will become more lenient over time.

As for other content this doesn't matter at all. Most dps checks can be met with the tank on auto attack and the dps wrecking it. But the insinuation that if you aren't meeting a dps checks, its not the tanks fault is disingenuous in the current savage raid. You have some of the absolute best players in this game outwrdly proving this to be false and evidence trumps rhetoric any day of the week. This is also why I say that teams who try and apply themselves to strict "roles" ala "tanks aren't dps and healers should just heal" are the ones who are limiting and handicapping themselves. The current hardcore raid content makes healer and tank dps an absolute necessity, not an option. Good teams will do whats necessary to win.

Unless you are on that world first clear I do not see how this applies.

It may very well be that with these ilvls you can only clear certain content with certain classes, this has always been the mantra of the elite.

But I don't think this is the right crowd for it, for example. There is a difference between playing your class to the fullest and needing to switch classes in order to complete something.

If the majority of players feel that way it will most definitely be changed.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Unless you are on that world first clear I do not see how this applies.

It may very well be that with these ilvls you can only clear certain content with certain classes, this has always been the mantra of the elite.

But I don't think this is the right crowd for it, for example. There is a difference between playing your class to the fullest and needing to switch classes in order to complete something.

If the majority of players feel that way it will most definitely be changed.

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It won't change. They purposly make it to where it's near impossible to clear new "hard" content when it first comes out unless some roles step out of their traditional role (tanks and healer's dps). You're actually meant to farm the other set of gear (estro gear the new AF) first and then tackle Savage. Yoshida even stated this when Heavensward was first coming out.

But I do agree for the majority of people this is irrelevant.

Though enough complaining from the PLD crowd may make them up PLD's damage a bit.

Sorry I think while I sort of agree with you there was a misunderstanding.

I am not saying tank dps is irrelevant, nor that tanks should not be pushing for max dps.

I'm saying that...

1. The way we do that is not "kosher". We shouldn't be everyone dps stance all the time except for threat (imo). We shouldn't avoid even applying our one class mechanic which is a boss damage reduction, simply because want to push slightly more dps. This seems an incorrect way to design the game. Not that currently it isn't the "meta", but that the current state is wrong.

2. You shouldn't have any large discrepancy between tank dps. Yoshida's justification for lowered PLD dps is bull, because unless PLD mitigation is required (like it was in 2.0) for progression, it will never be good to have a tank that simply just does less dps. Tanks should be differentiated in the way they achieve their numbers, the way they achieve their mitigation, but there should not be a large difference in either between the tanks.

What I was saying is that requiring to gear and/or level another tank class simply to clear content is something really the top guilds should (and will) be contemplating. For the avg (and even the mostly elite) this is simply too much grind and/or not "fun" for a lot of people.

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Originally Posted by Dante_V

As for other content this doesn't matter at all. Most dps checks can be met with the tank on auto attack and the dps wrecking it. But the insinuation that if you aren't meeting a dps checks, its not the tanks fault is disingenuous in the current savage raid. You have some of the absolute best players in this game outwrdly proving this to be false and evidence trumps rhetoric any day of the week. This is also why I say that teams who try and apply themselves to strict "roles" ala "tanks aren't dps and healers should just heal" are the ones who are limiting and handicapping themselves. The current hardcore raid content makes healer and tank dps an absolute necessity, not an option. Good teams will do whats necessary to win.

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I mean they specifically said they tuned content to take no healer dps and only base tank dps in mind when designing dps checks.
But the progression race is a race, so people do what they have to put themselves ahead.

Also, on the other thread -

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Originally Posted by Calib0s

They actually had a few job changes in order to make the final DPS push here. A significant reason for the switch to DRK was that they dropped MNK but still wanted to have the -10% int debuff.

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Group comp changes can't be taken in isolation. Unless you're party of the team or you know all their reasoning, you don't have a right make the assumption they switched to DRK purely for the DPS.
Maybe that was a factor, but those teams take all raid factors (particularly with comp) into account. It's never that simple.

Tank dps certainly matters, but when talking about the World First rate - Everything matters.
Tanks and healers help dps when they can, but the dps checks are tuned around dps.
The best players help push that before they're supposed to with supplemental dps from the tanks and healers, and that's acceptable play too.

But it's not disingenuous to say DPS is still mostly on the DPS, when we know that's the design (and they still should play a much larger role in the checks even with good dps from tanks and healers).

Tank dps will always matter. The world first team had to swap pal to drk to meet a check and you might say 'sure but when my static does it we won't need to', yet will your statics dps do what the world first team was doing even at lower item levels? Will they be chugging hq stat pots on XD with perfect timing and using the best food available? This was a top end guild that pulled out all the stops and while it will get easier due to gear, until echo comes into play tank dps will still be very important.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Each tank brings a perk to being the MT. All three tanks are EQUAL. Any DPS advantage/disadvantage is made up for in another department.

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This is a fluffy answer. The reality is there are better classes than others, and balance is not as fine as you imagine. There were alot of changes in heavensward and things were not dialed down perfectly before release, so to say they all have advantages is true--but which ones matter the most is another matter.


Savage has many dps checks, and having higher dps shortens a fight which is never a bad thing--you can force phase changes faster, or pile on more damage during certain periods of time where the effects are more important. Killings adds in A3 Savage was far easier for the war in their stream than the paladin, cause in short bursts that dps matters---pushing phases in normal? It matters. Ravana Libs? It matters--Faust, beating A1 Savage, or ---all--- of A2 Savage? It certainly matters.

War's and Drk right now excel in the current content. Having commonly available cooldowns is better than having stronger ones with lengthy cds, which is what a Paladin is. Secondly, having more agnostic defenses works out better---a War generally doesnt care where the damage comes form (Phys or Magical) since they will ib it and self heal back some of that damage, then throw other cooldowns in as sauce. Drk's similarly, dont care. Magic? Delirium and Dark Mind. Physical? Reprise and Dark Dance.

The Paladin does not fit this mind set at all. When it comes to magic, they have nothing, but three extra solutions to physical-----which would be fine but there are no real physical busters, instead just constant heavy physical damage which does not put them 'well ahead' of other tanks in these situations. Bulwark is inferior to Dark Dance in A2 for instance, and Shelltron is generally meaningless in A1 and A2. Yet killing the packs, even 2-3 seconds faster, results in far less damage and focus from the healers mana pools.

Add in the fact Paladins cannot realistically contribute to aoe, or offensively tank effectively without a ninja, and you are just piling on issues with the class. They had the same issue in 1.0, which is really sad to see SE did not learn their lesson from back then.

PLD doesn't do too little DPS for it to matter in the long run. For now, DRK and WAR's extra boon matters because with our current gear the DPS checks are tight. T4 used to be a tight DPS check, always reaching soft enrage before dying, just to put things in perspective.